Rank questions...

maD_maX_

Alright i tried to ask these before but seems i asked to many things at the same time, and the topic went way off topic...

1. From what servers does hive stats look at?
2. Is the stat bar in the menu set by the server admin, or is it related to the skills of the players on that server?


I have more, and some follow up questions but ill start with these (would be helpful if UWE would write up a description more indepth then the change log stating that stats were added)

Side1Bu2Rnz9

atm i think stats are recorded on servers with 0 mods running... essentially only UWE servers, since most community servers have at least an admin mod

The stats bar is related to the skill of the players in the server.

ezekel

stats are offline at the moment, and have been reset

maD_maX_

Is there a planned "mod white list". Seems something like shine admin shouldn't be an issue. Really any mod other the combat type mods should still have some value to show player skill level.

Sewlek

mods can "whitelist" themself by simply changing the lua code responsible to sending the data

AceDude

Yup! Stats should start recording the data early next week. I'm working on a whitelist for servers, so no more abuses will be possible.

GhoulofGSG9

So im allowed to overide the playerranking method to whitelist my server by myself ?

AceDude

No, you can just mark your server as "vanilla". Doing so while having any game-changing mods installed will get your server banned from Hive.

Ghosthree3

What method are you using to verify server integrity for data? Or can you not really say?

I posted this idea a few days ago, which @SteveRock thought was good,

SteveRock wrote: »

Ghosthree3 wrote: »

The only way I see it being done is have the server send the info with a keycode unique to that server provider. That way it can be controlled which servers (or people) can send data, if you host a public server apply for a code.

I think this would be the only sure-fire way. We'd need to verify servers though - maybe the community could help with this some how? Like each server needs to get like.. 25 NS2 players to sign an online petition for them, with their steam IDs? Basically just to say, "Yes, this is a good server with good performance that I play on a lot, and they're not running totally game-changing mods, so I'd like my stats on this server to be tracked."

GhoulofGSG9

https://github.com/BrightPaul/Shine/commit/fba652f306f4aaef2c198fa0226281ff0bf94476

My Server Name is Survival of the Fattest NS2stats disables itself if bots are added, moreover i'll it disable combat, xenoswarm and mvm. Maybe ill add a mod validation to ns2stats.com

My Server only uses 3 Mods (Shine.Ns2stats and Commander Bindings) i hope its ok.

ezekel

Ok so from what I've gathered

Certain mods will be whitelisted

And the server can mark itself as vanilla, meaning it's using no mods or whitelisted only mods

But if a server marks itself as vanilla while not using a whitelisted mod, the server bans itself from the hive system?

Is this correct?

Ghosthree3

The hive will ban the server from submitting data again, the server won't stop itself as I'm sure that's "fixable".

GhoulofGSG9

But how should the hive make sure that no mod modify the server modlist etc. . Imho the best way would be to introduce serverkeys and let a little trusted community team validate servers

Ghosthree3

He's saying that if you intentionally modify your servers files with modded files so that the server doesn't flag itself as modded (because there are no "mods" as far as it knows those files are vanilla) that your server will be banned because you're probably trying to abuse the system. Using mods normally is fine.

But yes, the server keys is the way to go.

EDIT: Actually both is the way to go.

AceDude

I will verify all the servers by myself, only way to be sure. I think I'll start tomorrow or on Tuesday, first servers marked as "trusted" will be the most popular ones (with most rounds played).

There will be no official whitelist, but mods like shine administration and other non-gameplay mods will be approved, so authors can mark them as "vanilla".

@Ghosthree3 - how keys can help?

Ghosthree3

AceDude wrote: »

I will verify all the servers by myself, only way to be sure.

Now that's dedication.

What if someone sends data saying they're a legit server when they're not though? You compare IP of data sender to IP of server? Also technically server owners with direct access to the box could then send the data from that IP anyway (I doubt people are this dedicated to cheating but eh).

EDIT: By keys I mean, server owners apply for a key to use for any servers they own, if granted you give a UNIQUE key that will be verified by the Hive before accepting data. If the key is "leaked" then it is blacklisted and most likely those servers never get to be accepted again.

AceDude

Nothing. We have all servers sending data stored in the database already, they are marked as untrusted by default. No ranking data is saved from such servers.

Yeah, I'm comparing the server IP stored in the JSON data with the actual sender's IP. If it's different - it's an automatical, permanent ban for sender + I will take action to find such person.

And right, it would be possible to send fake data from whitelisted servers, but what's the point of that? It would get banned very quickly and players would have their stats reset. Not cool.

@keys - I'd have to do twice the work to get the same result, it's pointless.

Ghosthree3

How would you know if the data was fake or not, they could have submitted what looked like a legit game but boosted a specific (or several) players stats from that IP and you'd never know!

Also I edited my post above right before posting, if you didn't notice it.

GhoulofGSG9

So i think my change is ok But knowing the ns2stats database you have alot of work in front of you. So thanks for your answers and good luck with all those logs.

Ghosthree3

If you're going through it manually then I guess keys aren't needed, I was suggesting it as an alternative automatic method. Though I suppose your way is better, just requires man power.

Omega_K2

AceDude wrote: »

Nothing. We have all servers sending data stored in the database already, they are marked as untrusted by default. No ranking data is saved from such servers.

Yeah, I'm comparing the server IP stored in the JSON data with the actual sender's IP. If it's different - it's an automatical, permanent ban for sender + I will take action to find such person.

And right, it would be possible to send fake data from whitelisted servers, but what's the point of that? It would get banned very quickly and players would have their stats reset. Not cool.

@keys - I'd have to do twice the work to get the same result, it's pointless.

Do you actually take the port into consideration? Because of the hive page servers are displayed without port and not taking port into consideration would doom the system right there.

AceDude

@Ghosthree3 - there's no easy way to do this. We can just make it harder, but the most stubborn asshats will always find a way to cheat and I wear heavy-duty boots to crush them. That's the way the world works.


(my boots withour a cheater under them)

@GhoulofGSG9 - that's right, but it's fun

@Omega_K2 - sure I do. But it's possible to do so since the most recent patch, Max had to add this to the Spark :P

Ghosthree3

@AceDude fair enough, there is nothing that can't be hacked I suppose.

Also yeah, might wanna distinguish server ports, before the data was wiped, I noticed every game I played on any of the "Monash" (Australian group of servers) would say the round was played on the #1 server (since all are on the same box). Not a HUGE issue I suppose, but since player counts vary, such information could be misleading, I mean, it was way easier to get a higher skill rating from a game played on 24p servers compared to 18.

AceDude

Sure, server ports are very important. I scan every server right after receiving the data.

trinity.ns

Recommendation: Aggregate the rankings by server and store these. The visible ranking is then the aggregation of the server aggregations (you can update this aggregation every X minutes). This way when a server gets blacklisted, you don't have to erase all records, just the aggregation record of that particular server. That's how I'd do it anyway.

dePARA

You can mod a server without installing mods. How are you verifying this?

ezekel

trinity.ns wrote: »

Recommendation: Aggregate the rankings by server and store these. The visible ranking is then the aggregation of the server aggregations (you can update this aggregation every X minutes). This way when a server gets blacklisted, you don't have to erase all records, just the aggregation record of that particular server. That's how I'd do it anyway.

Sounds hard to do

dePARA wrote: »

You can mod a server without installing mods. How are you verifying this?

I'd assume just like how the game consistency checks - if a file doesn't match the set default then it's marked as modded, so I guess the server would go through the same check as a client would upon joining a server. for example if I modify a shader it will work for myself, but if I join a server which has that file being checked it will fail the file and not allow me to join (just guessing)

dePARA

@ezekel

Well, you can whitelist lua files on the server=no consistency checks

ezekel

dePARA wrote: »

@ezekel

Well, you can whitelist lua files on the server=no consistency checks

Yeah but it won't be whitelisted over on UWEs side, which is where the check will most likely happen -- thus giving you that ban whatever since it's not vanilla

Much like how I can't use a mod on a server that checks that file, but if the server allows it then I can

edit: I also don't get why people want to cheat this system, if it's going to ultimately used to benefit the game and help players match near their skills

GhoulofGSG9

There are lots of ways to abuse this skill/stat system atm, so keep you eyes open and report any servers which might support any kind of manipulating the hive There is no other way to go.

_Necro_

I appreciate the devotion to this topic. But people should not forget that we are talking about a ranking system for a game here. Some security-measures are needed, but we don't need to go fully retard and make it fort onox.

If you are so dedicated to "cheat" yourself up to the top score, the coming skill-balance system will always place all the newbs in your team. In order to weigh out the high skill of yourself, it needs to place all the other people with moderate skill on the opposite team of yours.

Cheating the hive system will lead you to a bunch of shitty matches. Maybe you will never be able to have fun on servers that constantly use the "balance teams by skill" feature.