Aren't marines are designed to win 1x1 and skulks should work in teams to take them down.
I mean it sucks but...
The design principle was actually the opposite, aliens were suppose to work more autonomously while the marines needed to stick in small groups in order to not get picked off. Aside from the design principle the mechanic has a super low skill requirement to use to gain a ton of effectiveness, while to combat it takes much more ability. Unless you're the aforementioned predicted premiere division champs of 2013 apparently....
Though I also believe SJ is too powerful right now or that it might even need removed. You are totally wrong about alien team play. Yes the aliens are semi autonomous but that is only with respect to the kharmmander. Aliens need team work just as much if not more than marines. How else do you expect to kill well positioned good aiming marines. Go in one at a time or as a group hopefully trying to flank. If played correctly a marine has a better chance of survival in 1v1's due the advantage of ranged weapons ignoring the SJ. A good marine with good aim and positioning can easily take on 2 or even 3 skulks with out even needing to jump once. Where you got the idea that aliens require or should require less teamwork I will never know, but you're doing it wrong.
Ignoring the OP SJ I know for a fact a majority of players have a L2P issue, not because of not knowing how to skulk but because they think they don't need to work together. I constantly kill skulks in pubs not because they ground skulk but because they come at me 1 by 1. When it's this streamline I have no need to jump I just sit back and move my mouse a little.
All I'm saying if you keep this untrue idea of what it means to be alien you will keep dying even if SJ is removed. Work as a team attack in groups and use flanking and I promise even the best SJ'ers will die.
haven't played too much since reinforced, but I don't think the strafe is op... I haven't encountered the situation where I've been killed by people I wouldn't have been killed by before. and im killing the people I should be killing. I haven't attributed my stupid deaths to strafe jump, but mostly to, hey I suck at biting, and "maybe I shouldn't have assumed he wouldn't 180 me in the face."
SJ is non friendly for new players. How do you want to encourage ppl to play this game? Its so dumb looking and annoying mechanics for aliens ... Aliens are not so scary anymore, good rinese moving solo rambo style, after succesful ambush rine starts his pogo-jedi-dance and kills you after 1 bite. Thats too much for new players ... no fun at all. Im new player and im tired of this. I rly like this game but this is so annoying...
I agree now, that this mechanic does nothing for the skill floor, but increases the marine skill ceiling. Making it overall harder for new players to have fun in the game.
Therefore I think it should be changed. No hidden mechanic should have such a great impact. Not even when it is easy to perform and you only need to know about it.
I don't share the opinion, that a marine needs to be dead meat when a skulk manages to get into melee distance. But a mechanic to create a fair battle should be viable and visible to new players.
Walljump has the same problem. Just getting a speed boost by walking on ceilings / walls would be more obvious to new players than the obscure mechanic of wall jumping. But this is another topic.
SJ is non friendly for new players. How do you want to encourage ppl to play this game? Its so dumb looking and annoying mechanics for aliens ... Aliens are not so scary anymore, good rinese moving solo rambo style, after succesful ambush rine starts his pogo-jedi-dance and kills you after 1 bite. Thats too much for new players ... no fun at all. Im new player and im tired of this. I rly like this game but this is so annoying...
You don't know scary until you've seen a pair of walljumping skulks fly at you at mach speeds. You don't have enough time to brown your trousers before they're eating you.
I don't buy into this 'it's so OP that new players are getting screwed over' argument. Do we see lots of marine wins? Because honestly if the team skill levels are about even and strafe jump is so OP, then marines should be winning all their engagements, which means they will be able to secure their own res easily and put good pressure on the aliens. TBH we just don't see that in most pubs unless the teams are stacked...
New players might think the strafe jump is what's getting them killed, but if we're really being objective about this, it's more likely that in many cases (ie not necessarily all cases) they're just being outplayed and would get equally massacred in the absence of the slight strafe jump boost.
I don't have any particular view on whether it should remain or be removed. In general, I can kill pub skulks with normal jumping, without jumping, or with strafe jumping equally easily - and I'm not an exceptional player of the game by any means.
Also, I don't have any particular trouble taking out marines whether they're gaining the slight strafe jump boost or not, but that really depends on how well the marine can aim (and most pub marines are downright awful at this).
Timing your bites should be one of the first things the tutorials tell you. It's the way to ensure you land them accurately and can keep track of marine health effectively as well. Para + 2 bites on a0 marines (or my personal preference, 2 bites then para) is all you need, and that can be done super quick if you don't run around holding M1 and waving the mouse in the hope that the marine will magically appear on the screen.
I honestly believe that this whole perception that SJ is a massive problem is actually more derived from the changes to normal alien sight, making it far more difficult to see where the marine is in CQC than before.
TL;DR: I am not a great NS2 player, but I just don't seem to have the problem that people are complaining about here. I don't think it's a L2P issue, I think it's actually a misdiagnosis of the problem: alien sight making CQC combat tracking difficult exacerbates the problem.
All I'm saying if you keep this untrue idea of what it means to be alien you will keep dying even if SJ is removed. Work as a team attack in groups and use flanking and I promise even the best SJ'ers will die.
I don't put my mouth on lmgs or walk on the ground straight at marines. I'm most likely a better player than you, stop grouping my opinion with a skill level and don't say "I know for a fact" when stating an opinion.
What you're asserting is that 1 marine = 2-3 skulks and that's just fine. It's not, one marine of equal skill should not have the potency or require the attention of 2 or more skulks as this creates less teamwork for the *marines*. If you want to assert teamwork is required for this game at all levels, then resource advantages aside, 1 competent skulk needs to equal 1 competent marine.
As for the design principle assertion, are you honestly disagreeing that aliens were designed to have an advantage in melee? Because that's the assertion that's being made as problematic that allows marines to 2v1 or 3v1 right now. I'm not jumping down a hall by myself straight towards a marine, most people aren't, but even when you get a jump on someone and put the fight on the skulks terms, the strafejump is both simple and powerful enough to completely turn the tide.
You're also defining 1v1 as "completely alone, off away from teammates", but 1v1 skirmishes happen during team attacks, when you're trying to stop a 3 man push and you flank the group of rines as 2 friends come at them from the front, the second you engage the marine in the back you've entered a 1v1 fight until your two friends either kill one or both of their targets, or they die. You're pretending like this doesn't affect team attacks, it does, unless you all pick a single target in a skirmish for part of any given engagement you're going to be fighting 1v1, and marines win that fight given equal skill. It doesn't make sense from a balance perspective and it doesn't make sense from aliens being designed as melee'ing ambushers.
All I'm saying if you keep this untrue idea of what it means to be alien you will keep dying even if SJ is removed. Work as a team attack in groups and use flanking and I promise even the best SJ'ers will die.
I don't put my mouth on lmgs or walk on the ground straight at marines. I'm most likely a better player than you, stop grouping my opinion with a skill level and don't say "I know for a fact" when stating an opinion.
I'm going to go out in a limb here and suggest that you're probably not
I'm going to go out in a limb here and suggest that you're probably not
Was referring to sideburns, and I really only play on comp pub servers anymore, unless they're down or the comp players that play there just happen to not be there. So If we're making skill an argument, which is a stupid argument, I'd say unless you're a person that's on a high level comp team and you barely play pubs then you don't really have room to speak as though everyone else's perspective is invalid because they're not "on your level".
I'm going to go out in a limb here and suggest that you're probably not
Was referring to sideburns, and I really only play on comp pub servers anymore, unless they're down or the comp players that play there just happen to not be there. So If we're making skill an argument, which is a stupid argument, I'd say unless you're a person that's on a high level comp team and you barely play pubs then you don't really have room to speak as though everyone else's perspective is invalid because they're not "on your level".
I wasn't taking about me, I was talking about sideburns. You may well be better than me, as I'm only a lowly div3 player.
All I'm saying if you keep this untrue idea of what it means to be alien you will keep dying even if SJ is removed. Work as a team attack in groups and use flanking and I promise even the best SJ'ers will die.
I don't put my mouth on lmgs or walk on the ground straight at marines. I'm most likely a better player than you, stop grouping my opinion with a skill level and don't say "I know for a fact" when stating an opinion.
What you're asserting is that 1 marine = 2-3 skulks and that's just fine. It's not, one marine of equal skill should not have the potency or require the attention of 2 or more skulks as this creates less teamwork for the *marines*. If you want to assert teamwork is required for this game at all levels, then resource advantages aside, 1 competent skulk needs to equal 1 competent marine.
As for the design principle assertion, are you honestly disagreeing that aliens were designed to have an advantage in melee? Because that's the assertion that's being made as problematic that allows marines to 2v1 or 3v1 right now. I'm not jumping down a hall by myself straight towards a marine, most people aren't, but even when you get a jump on someone and put the fight on the skulks terms, the strafejump is both simple and powerful enough to completely turn the tide.
You're also defining 1v1 as "completely alone, off away from teammates", but 1v1 skirmishes happen during team attacks, when you're trying to stop a 3 man push and you flank the group of rines as 2 friends come at them from the front, the second you engage the marine in the back you've entered a 1v1 fight until your two friends either kill one or both of their targets, or they die. You're pretending like this doesn't affect team attacks, it does, unless you all pick a single target in a skirmish for part of any given engagement you're going to be fighting 1v1, and marines win that fight given equal skill. It doesn't make sense from a balance perspective and it doesn't make sense from aliens being designed as melee'ing ambushers.
I never said that I could stomp you any day at any time. Nor do I want to get into the argument on who is better. I also never claimed that you were a greenie that groundskulked or put the marines pistol to your mouth. You seem to by constantly assuming that my constructive criticism of your game play (according to your forum post) speak to your ability or to your skill level. IT DOES NOT. Also where did I say "I know for a fact"?
But once again you are wrong in your understanding of 1v1's. You assume that as you're engaging a single marine as a skulk that must be 1v1 right? That is incorrect (did not say you can't skulk). Your scenario that you just stated was a 3v3 engagement whether you agree or not (a good engagement since you flanked them)(again not saying you're a bad skulk, but a good one since you flanked). This may be why we're not understanding each other since your idea of what a 1v1 engagement is statistically wrong.
I also never said that 1 skulk does not equal 1 marine in a 1v1 fight. I believe that it is 50/50, but that is a problem you see. Adding one more skulk to the equation turned that 50/50 1v1 into a 75/25 2v1, which odds would you take. Notice how its not 66/33 with a 2v1, odds quickly turn to your favor when you add more people to your engagements. Now lets assume you get the first bite in before the marine notices you (means you were cloaked or marine isn't very good and didn't check corners). The odds for the 1v1 are in your favor, maybe 65/35. This however doesn't mean you have or should have a 100% chance of success when ambushing. Lets for principle look at maybe a 2v1 ambush... You now have a near 90/10 chance of killing the lone marine. Much better than the 65/35.
I ALSO never said that I agree with or like SJ as it currently stands... in fact I said the opposite twice in my post (must have skimmed my post).
This game is all about team work. 1 marine v 1 skulk is never a good engagement since you only have a 50% chance of success. You want to win each engagement for your team so it makes sense to not engage until the odds are in your favor. Now there are times when you may need to engage (save rt, or something), but only when it's opportune (marine just unloaded clip into rt). Once again, I am not saying you're a bad skulk, but if you engage as a team you'll be more of a help to your team.
P.S. Also thank you @Roobubba for the confidence boost. I was "scared" for a bit from Asmodies post... :x
New players might think the strafe jump is what's getting them killed, but if we're really being objective about this, it's more likely that in many cases (ie not necessarily all cases) they're just being outplayed and would get equally massacred in the absence of the slight strafe jump boost.
But you can't disagree, that the strafe jump has a very high potential to increase your lifetime as marine. And that a new player who doesn't know about it is on a disadvantage. Maybe on high skilled comp games, it doesn't make a big difference. But on pubs with new players it does. And it forces new players away from the game when they don't have the luck of someone explaining to them how strafe jump / wall jump works. If I have to consider the pros and cons of the strafe jump, being a bad mechanic for new player is a big con.
I have stated multiple times, that marines needed a buff. They were dead meat in 90% of ambush encounters. And this is just not fun. But a mechanic that evens this ground needs to be openly visible for new players.
But as some of you are starting on throwing those elitist-bs around again, I will just say that you comp players have no idea anyway on how our scrub live on pubs is and how new players behave. You play in your own little world with highly skilled players and no newbs. You know nothing, about how strafe jump is bad for new players.
[See, I can use this idiotic "your opinion is invalid because your not my level"-argument too.]
If you're really of the mind that the though process of "I should jump away from the biting skulk, and since jumping backwards seems to be slow, maybe I should try to strafe before the jump" is 'hidden' and too complex, then you're advocating for a pretty extreme dumbing-down of the game. Not every single game mechanic needs to be yelled in your face with tooltips, hints and separate abilities.
It's not about the idea of jumping away from an incoming skulk. It's about the hidden mechanic of getting a speedboost if you hit those two buttons. And only those.
If you say it is logical to gain speed faster by jumping. Ok. But than it should be coherent with jump in any direction. Only getting this boost by strafe jumps isn't intuitive.
I'm not for dumbing down the game. I'm not for overpowered skulks when in melee range. But I'm for more players playing this game. And therefor it should communicate its complexity and educate new players. Otherwise they will be on a very big disadvantage. A too big disadvantage when you think of other parts like map knowledge, positioning and strategy that all add on top on the disadvantage a new player has anyway.
Jumping to the side doesn't *always* invoke the boosted strafe jump. This process is already sufficient to give the marine enough time to react to a skulk. The slight boost difference between the two is what people should be comparing, but this whole thread seems dedicated to comparing a marine that strafe jumps effectively versus one who stands still on the spot or walks directly backwards, which is quite disingenuous.
And for the record, I'm completely ambivalent about the strafe jump, I really couldn't care less whether it stays or goes. I also don't think it's actually the main problem here, but I've already stated that above.
The only thing that disturbs me about this straf jump : it's too easy to do. Even fresh new players can dodge easy and give you difficulties tracking them as skulk, just by spamming jump and strafs.
What i loved in NS1, was the fact you had to understand bhop mechanics to make good dodging moves as marine. Now, it's just unskilled.
But anyway, I think it's a good thing we are seeing such movements for marines. Fights were too much static before UWE added these. We were whining to get some dodging movements. Now we have them, we are still whinning. What the **** guys ?
Anyway, the fact that alien is harder (especially because of these dodging jumps) now just makes a lot of people whine because they can't track marines easily enough to kill them. New players often stacked alien because it was easier, in fights, than marine. It's good to see more interest from newbies towards both races...
There's just something really frustrating when you watch a bad-mediocre marine spray and miss 95% of their bullets as you approach/dodge, yet when you get up to them while they're reloading they hop away and either leave you with barely any hp or sometimes just kill you anyways. I wouldn't mind it if strafe jumping made good players perform better with a little practice, but the fact that it is so easy to do means it also favors players with bad aim and positioning, making it really annoying.
Before you had to time the jump better and if you did it against a skulk without having wore down on them a little you were at a severe disadvantage.
@rayzou
New players really prefered to play aliens? I always felt like they were more eager to play marines.
I find it a lot harder to hit marines since they can jump like this but I think one can adapt to it. However, my experience comes from pub games where I see a lot of marines not using it that often.
Do people even remember the game before this strafe jump nonsense? A good marine could still work multiple skulks, that is if he wasn't ambushed, but engagements were much closer to 50/50 I feel. 1v1's came down to skulk engagement position/timing and marine aim, and the bunny hops, etc... were a last ditch attempt at evasion while trying to land the final pistol shots or what have you.
Positioning is the first factor. Obviously a skulk just wall-jumping down the hallway is an easy target, but to successfully ambush would result in a skulk winning probably 90% of the time. Now once you've landed the first bite, it's hardly the tracking that matters most. The majority of times I die, I'm chasing a marine who's flying backwards simply faster than I am forwards. I'm tracking right on them, but their speed is just too much.
Interesting enough, this shows how far the bite distance for the skulk actually is. It feels like 5-6 feet (in game) in front of the skulk where it hits- a generous distance for sure. The tracking only really comes in to play when marines are busting 180's at a full sprint and curve-balling through the air with the skulk actively chasing.
It still comes down to what kind of experience you want to have. A 1v1 should have one of two immediate outcomes: either the marine had good positioning/good habits and wasn't totally ambushed, giving him time to fire before getting bitten, or they were ambushed and most likely going to die. This was perfect, I felt, and any fix I would've supported would be something like a dodge or something without the ability to fire. Now it's obviously skewed in the marines favor via this extra, exaggerated movement, and this is plain for all to see.
I just don't like those solutions and what they do to the game, period. It doesn't feel like NS has always seemed to feel to me. I honestly don't want to be a marine like that, and usually in pub games I don't even SJ anymore. It's an archaic solution, but it works. Kind of really throws some skulks off because they're expecting the Carl Lewis takeoff leap xD
I heard some Ppl talk about "strange moves" these last 2 days. I confirm some are "strangely" moving like in the Benny Hill show (for real) when SJ. Close to teleportation. They are far better at dodging with SJ and aim/shot at the same time.
hi
I didn't read the entire threads but i must agree with most of people, the SJ, bunnyjump or whatelse you call it is really annoying in is state... okay when you play marine it's make you smile when you dogde aliens attack....but when you play as an aliens it's a pain, event with celerity....
For me to balance it a little more we can try
1- reduce a little the range of the strafe jump (and not remove it)
2- or/and increase the attack wideness of skulk base attack.
And two others points i would really like to see ingame
1- Reduce a little the flying time of JP.....damn how it's boring to chase a jp when they can fly for HALF of the map.....
2- Please reduce a little the adrenaline cost of blink
In truth, I always never liked seeing Marines able to jump so easy away from Aliens. The game looks impressive, and the bunny hopping marines ruin the immersion. I think the game would do better overall removing the ability for marines to jump or run if they get bitten in the form of a time penalty.
I wonder if the dev's have even bothered to test out slow penalties on aliens and marines. This could improve gameplay, but I guess the NS dev's have never tested it out.
I really envy you if that's what's destroying your immersion, after all the graphic and sound tweaks I've made to compete, and the players squealing in my ears, the last thing I'm erked about is seeing a guy jump away from an alien. That being said I'd gladly trade a strafe jump to shave off some lerk and fade health. Also worth mentioning I do actually prefer playing aliens, and years of playing quake 3 makes the skulk my favourite at that.
I don't like to be someone who strafe jumps to conclusions, so before passing judgement on anything I like to test it thoroughly to develop an informed opinion on the subject matter. Its been several weeks now...
Strafe jump is a bad mechanic, it's as simple that.
It's not fun for marines or aliens and It does not fit with the fundamental design of marines (slow but ranged). This might sound overly dramatic but its actually ruining the game for me. It feels cheap to do on people and frustrating when marines do it to you. It's just a rage inducer. The general consensus is that it's bad for the game, Why is it even stayed in there this long!? Please remove it. I beg you!
If strafe jump is for balance.... I'd rather just have the fun back.
Been reading these forums for a few weeks, this is my first time posting.
I've played tons of FPSes before, including quite some NS1 which I still enjoy to this day.
What I don't really understand is how so many people here find strafe jumping in NS2 to be alright and working as intended. Now, I've only played NS2 for about 3 months, so I still consider myself a noob, but I'm pretty sure most people here would agree that the learning curve of this game is pretty steep. This is usually something I don't have a problem with, but the Marine mobility isn't just part of that learning curve in my opinion - it ruins the game for a lot of people, including me. Strafe jumping alone might not be the issue here, but rather the whole thing about Marines being almost as mobile as small and agile Skulks which makes hitting them incredibly hard. You'd expect mobility and agility to be one of the Aliens' strengths. My aim is decent and I don't have this issue in other FPSes, mind you.
I'll admit, I don't play Marine very often. I prefer Aliens, and pretty much bought NS2 for that reason, because they provide a unique and fun first person experience instead of the usual soldier-type gameplay you find in most other FPSes. I might be partial for that reason, but my point is that the room for failure when playing Kharaa is very, VERY small, and it's simply not fun as a relatively new player. I'm sure this isn't too much of a problem for professional players, but pretty much every single one of my friends agree that even though the win ratio between the teams is pretty even most of the time, the pattern of dying over and over again gets pretty old. Winning as a team isn't fun if you constantly feel like you don't contribute to your team.
I don't know, I love the concept and I absolutely adore NS1, but I'm starting to think that maybe this game isn't for me. Not trying to bash anyone here, just felt like sharing what I think.
Comments
loooool. 10/10 would watch
Do you know what elevation jumping is or what it does?
Though I also believe SJ is too powerful right now or that it might even need removed. You are totally wrong about alien team play. Yes the aliens are semi autonomous but that is only with respect to the kharmmander. Aliens need team work just as much if not more than marines. How else do you expect to kill well positioned good aiming marines. Go in one at a time or as a group hopefully trying to flank. If played correctly a marine has a better chance of survival in 1v1's due the advantage of ranged weapons ignoring the SJ. A good marine with good aim and positioning can easily take on 2 or even 3 skulks with out even needing to jump once. Where you got the idea that aliens require or should require less teamwork I will never know, but you're doing it wrong.
Ignoring the OP SJ I know for a fact a majority of players have a L2P issue, not because of not knowing how to skulk but because they think they don't need to work together. I constantly kill skulks in pubs not because they ground skulk but because they come at me 1 by 1. When it's this streamline I have no need to jump I just sit back and move my mouse a little.
All I'm saying if you keep this untrue idea of what it means to be alien you will keep dying even if SJ is removed. Work as a team attack in groups and use flanking and I promise even the best SJ'ers will die.
Therefore I think it should be changed. No hidden mechanic should have such a great impact. Not even when it is easy to perform and you only need to know about it.
I don't share the opinion, that a marine needs to be dead meat when a skulk manages to get into melee distance. But a mechanic to create a fair battle should be viable and visible to new players.
Walljump has the same problem. Just getting a speed boost by walking on ceilings / walls would be more obvious to new players than the obscure mechanic of wall jumping. But this is another topic.
You don't know scary until you've seen a pair of walljumping skulks fly at you at mach speeds. You don't have enough time to brown your trousers before they're eating you.
New players might think the strafe jump is what's getting them killed, but if we're really being objective about this, it's more likely that in many cases (ie not necessarily all cases) they're just being outplayed and would get equally massacred in the absence of the slight strafe jump boost.
I don't have any particular view on whether it should remain or be removed. In general, I can kill pub skulks with normal jumping, without jumping, or with strafe jumping equally easily - and I'm not an exceptional player of the game by any means.
Also, I don't have any particular trouble taking out marines whether they're gaining the slight strafe jump boost or not, but that really depends on how well the marine can aim (and most pub marines are downright awful at this).
Timing your bites should be one of the first things the tutorials tell you. It's the way to ensure you land them accurately and can keep track of marine health effectively as well. Para + 2 bites on a0 marines (or my personal preference, 2 bites then para) is all you need, and that can be done super quick if you don't run around holding M1 and waving the mouse in the hope that the marine will magically appear on the screen.
I honestly believe that this whole perception that SJ is a massive problem is actually more derived from the changes to normal alien sight, making it far more difficult to see where the marine is in CQC than before.
TL;DR: I am not a great NS2 player, but I just don't seem to have the problem that people are complaining about here. I don't think it's a L2P issue, I think it's actually a misdiagnosis of the problem: alien sight making CQC combat tracking difficult exacerbates the problem.
I don't put my mouth on lmgs or walk on the ground straight at marines. I'm most likely a better player than you, stop grouping my opinion with a skill level and don't say "I know for a fact" when stating an opinion.
What you're asserting is that 1 marine = 2-3 skulks and that's just fine. It's not, one marine of equal skill should not have the potency or require the attention of 2 or more skulks as this creates less teamwork for the *marines*. If you want to assert teamwork is required for this game at all levels, then resource advantages aside, 1 competent skulk needs to equal 1 competent marine.
As for the design principle assertion, are you honestly disagreeing that aliens were designed to have an advantage in melee? Because that's the assertion that's being made as problematic that allows marines to 2v1 or 3v1 right now. I'm not jumping down a hall by myself straight towards a marine, most people aren't, but even when you get a jump on someone and put the fight on the skulks terms, the strafejump is both simple and powerful enough to completely turn the tide.
You're also defining 1v1 as "completely alone, off away from teammates", but 1v1 skirmishes happen during team attacks, when you're trying to stop a 3 man push and you flank the group of rines as 2 friends come at them from the front, the second you engage the marine in the back you've entered a 1v1 fight until your two friends either kill one or both of their targets, or they die. You're pretending like this doesn't affect team attacks, it does, unless you all pick a single target in a skirmish for part of any given engagement you're going to be fighting 1v1, and marines win that fight given equal skill. It doesn't make sense from a balance perspective and it doesn't make sense from aliens being designed as melee'ing ambushers.
Edit: Also, it would have been better to just further increase ground acceleration instead of the strafe jump boost bandaid swagger.
I'm going to go out in a limb here and suggest that you're probably not
Was referring to sideburns, and I really only play on comp pub servers anymore, unless they're down or the comp players that play there just happen to not be there. So If we're making skill an argument, which is a stupid argument, I'd say unless you're a person that's on a high level comp team and you barely play pubs then you don't really have room to speak as though everyone else's perspective is invalid because they're not "on your level".
I wasn't taking about me, I was talking about sideburns. You may well be better than me, as I'm only a lowly div3 player.
Filthy casual scum...
@Asmodies
I never said that I could stomp you any day at any time. Nor do I want to get into the argument on who is better. I also never claimed that you were a greenie that groundskulked or put the marines pistol to your mouth. You seem to by constantly assuming that my constructive criticism of your game play (according to your forum post) speak to your ability or to your skill level. IT DOES NOT. Also where did I say "I know for a fact"?
But once again you are wrong in your understanding of 1v1's. You assume that as you're engaging a single marine as a skulk that must be 1v1 right? That is incorrect (did not say you can't skulk). Your scenario that you just stated was a 3v3 engagement whether you agree or not (a good engagement since you flanked them)(again not saying you're a bad skulk, but a good one since you flanked). This may be why we're not understanding each other since your idea of what a 1v1 engagement is statistically wrong.
I also never said that 1 skulk does not equal 1 marine in a 1v1 fight. I believe that it is 50/50, but that is a problem you see. Adding one more skulk to the equation turned that 50/50 1v1 into a 75/25 2v1, which odds would you take. Notice how its not 66/33 with a 2v1, odds quickly turn to your favor when you add more people to your engagements. Now lets assume you get the first bite in before the marine notices you (means you were cloaked or marine isn't very good and didn't check corners). The odds for the 1v1 are in your favor, maybe 65/35. This however doesn't mean you have or should have a 100% chance of success when ambushing. Lets for principle look at maybe a 2v1 ambush... You now have a near 90/10 chance of killing the lone marine. Much better than the 65/35.
I ALSO never said that I agree with or like SJ as it currently stands... in fact I said the opposite twice in my post (must have skimmed my post).
This game is all about team work. 1 marine v 1 skulk is never a good engagement since you only have a 50% chance of success. You want to win each engagement for your team so it makes sense to not engage until the odds are in your favor. Now there are times when you may need to engage (save rt, or something), but only when it's opportune (marine just unloaded clip into rt). Once again, I am not saying you're a bad skulk, but if you engage as a team you'll be more of a help to your team.
P.S. Also thank you @Roobubba for the confidence boost. I was "scared" for a bit from Asmodies post... :x
But you can't disagree, that the strafe jump has a very high potential to increase your lifetime as marine. And that a new player who doesn't know about it is on a disadvantage. Maybe on high skilled comp games, it doesn't make a big difference. But on pubs with new players it does. And it forces new players away from the game when they don't have the luck of someone explaining to them how strafe jump / wall jump works. If I have to consider the pros and cons of the strafe jump, being a bad mechanic for new player is a big con.
I have stated multiple times, that marines needed a buff. They were dead meat in 90% of ambush encounters. And this is just not fun. But a mechanic that evens this ground needs to be openly visible for new players.
But as some of you are starting on throwing those elitist-bs around again, I will just say that you comp players have no idea anyway on how our scrub live on pubs is and how new players behave. You play in your own little world with highly skilled players and no newbs. You know nothing, about how strafe jump is bad for new players.
[See, I can use this idiotic "your opinion is invalid because your not my level"-argument too.]
If you're really of the mind that the though process of "I should jump away from the biting skulk, and since jumping backwards seems to be slow, maybe I should try to strafe before the jump" is 'hidden' and too complex, then you're advocating for a pretty extreme dumbing-down of the game. Not every single game mechanic needs to be yelled in your face with tooltips, hints and separate abilities.
If you say it is logical to gain speed faster by jumping. Ok. But than it should be coherent with jump in any direction. Only getting this boost by strafe jumps isn't intuitive.
I'm not for dumbing down the game. I'm not for overpowered skulks when in melee range. But I'm for more players playing this game. And therefor it should communicate its complexity and educate new players. Otherwise they will be on a very big disadvantage. A too big disadvantage when you think of other parts like map knowledge, positioning and strategy that all add on top on the disadvantage a new player has anyway.
What i loved in NS1, was the fact you had to understand bhop mechanics to make good dodging moves as marine. Now, it's just unskilled.
But anyway, I think it's a good thing we are seeing such movements for marines. Fights were too much static before UWE added these. We were whining to get some dodging movements. Now we have them, we are still whinning. What the **** guys ?
Anyway, the fact that alien is harder (especially because of these dodging jumps) now just makes a lot of people whine because they can't track marines easily enough to kill them. New players often stacked alien because it was easier, in fights, than marine. It's good to see more interest from newbies towards both races...
Before you had to time the jump better and if you did it against a skulk without having wore down on them a little you were at a severe disadvantage.
New players really prefered to play aliens? I always felt like they were more eager to play marines.
I find it a lot harder to hit marines since they can jump like this but I think one can adapt to it. However, my experience comes from pub games where I see a lot of marines not using it that often.
Positioning is the first factor. Obviously a skulk just wall-jumping down the hallway is an easy target, but to successfully ambush would result in a skulk winning probably 90% of the time. Now once you've landed the first bite, it's hardly the tracking that matters most. The majority of times I die, I'm chasing a marine who's flying backwards simply faster than I am forwards. I'm tracking right on them, but their speed is just too much.
Interesting enough, this shows how far the bite distance for the skulk actually is. It feels like 5-6 feet (in game) in front of the skulk where it hits- a generous distance for sure. The tracking only really comes in to play when marines are busting 180's at a full sprint and curve-balling through the air with the skulk actively chasing.
It still comes down to what kind of experience you want to have. A 1v1 should have one of two immediate outcomes: either the marine had good positioning/good habits and wasn't totally ambushed, giving him time to fire before getting bitten, or they were ambushed and most likely going to die. This was perfect, I felt, and any fix I would've supported would be something like a dodge or something without the ability to fire. Now it's obviously skewed in the marines favor via this extra, exaggerated movement, and this is plain for all to see.
I just don't like those solutions and what they do to the game, period. It doesn't feel like NS has always seemed to feel to me. I honestly don't want to be a marine like that, and usually in pub games I don't even SJ anymore. It's an archaic solution, but it works.
Wall of text! Dun dun dun!
Sorry. >.<
Another concern it seems.
I didn't read the entire threads but i must agree with most of people, the SJ, bunnyjump or whatelse you call it is really annoying in is state... okay when you play marine it's make you smile when you dogde aliens attack....but when you play as an aliens it's a pain, event with celerity....
For me to balance it a little more we can try
1- reduce a little the range of the strafe jump (and not remove it)
2- or/and increase the attack wideness of skulk base attack.
And two others points i would really like to see ingame
1- Reduce a little the flying time of JP.....damn how it's boring to chase a jp when they can fly for HALF of the map.....
2- Please reduce a little the adrenaline cost of blink
I really envy you if that's what's destroying your immersion, after all the graphic and sound tweaks I've made to compete, and the players squealing in my ears, the last thing I'm erked about is seeing a guy jump away from an alien. That being said I'd gladly trade a strafe jump to shave off some lerk and fade health. Also worth mentioning I do actually prefer playing aliens, and years of playing quake 3 makes the skulk my favourite at that.
Strafe jump is a bad mechanic, it's as simple that.
It's not fun for marines or aliens and It does not fit with the fundamental design of marines (slow but ranged). This might sound overly dramatic but its actually ruining the game for me. It feels cheap to do on people and frustrating when marines do it to you. It's just a rage inducer. The general consensus is that it's bad for the game, Why is it even stayed in there this long!? Please remove it. I beg you!
If strafe jump is for balance.... I'd rather just have the fun back.
I've played tons of FPSes before, including quite some NS1 which I still enjoy to this day.
What I don't really understand is how so many people here find strafe jumping in NS2 to be alright and working as intended. Now, I've only played NS2 for about 3 months, so I still consider myself a noob, but I'm pretty sure most people here would agree that the learning curve of this game is pretty steep. This is usually something I don't have a problem with, but the Marine mobility isn't just part of that learning curve in my opinion - it ruins the game for a lot of people, including me. Strafe jumping alone might not be the issue here, but rather the whole thing about Marines being almost as mobile as small and agile Skulks which makes hitting them incredibly hard. You'd expect mobility and agility to be one of the Aliens' strengths. My aim is decent and I don't have this issue in other FPSes, mind you.
I'll admit, I don't play Marine very often. I prefer Aliens, and pretty much bought NS2 for that reason, because they provide a unique and fun first person experience instead of the usual soldier-type gameplay you find in most other FPSes. I might be partial for that reason, but my point is that the room for failure when playing Kharaa is very, VERY small, and it's simply not fun as a relatively new player. I'm sure this isn't too much of a problem for professional players, but pretty much every single one of my friends agree that even though the win ratio between the teams is pretty even most of the time, the pattern of dying over and over again gets pretty old. Winning as a team isn't fun if you constantly feel like you don't contribute to your team.
I don't know, I love the concept and I absolutely adore NS1, but I'm starting to think that maybe this game isn't for me. Not trying to bash anyone here, just felt like sharing what I think.