DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I see no problems with the command queuing apart from yet another feature not well documented ingame.
I see issues with the new cysting however.
* Players already have trouble realising cysts cost resources. Now they can mass chain them. New players will not watch the resource counter that well. Since normally new players cyst a lot slower, res keeps tricking in in around the same amount of res they use up on cysts. Now a newbie can surely spam it all gone in seconds.
yes Im asuming here, as I have not played it live yet. I still cant imagine this not happening.
* Placing cysts one by one kept newbie eyes more on cysts, realising a lot faster that they need time before the infestation spreads. Now you can queue half the map with cysts and wonder why the glowing orbs are not doing anything.
* It was a kham time sink. Do they really need LESS to do?
* I personally find cysting a tad boring, but waiting for a massive chain to grow even more boring. 1 by one atleast kept you busy.
* The one cyst grown per hive while also giving the ability to chain massive cysts chains will disallow newbie comms to further develop cyst skills in a faster pace.
'Before' they placed a cyst, saw it die, did it again, and after a cyst or 3 realised something was wrong & stop placing or ask. They could find good spots to place cysts out of line of sight as much as possible.
The new cystem discourages smart cyst placement by doing it enmass while also putting less focus on the cysts they recently placed, due to the simple mass.
The only thing the new cyst system does is freeing kham time to jump out the hive and bite till they activated on there own & not learning khams how to properly cyst.
I can not imagine any positive side to this, especially combined with the new 1 cyst per hive rule.
Oversimplifying a simple task while further obscuring the more advanced info about something only works if the task at hand is a interesting one.
Cysting isnt.
@DC_Darkling I get where new coms might have an issue with this cystem but in all honesty I've come to love it. If you think it gives you less to do as an alien khamm your right, it frees up the khamm just enough that he can micro an early game drifter alongside his aliens instead of wondering if its time to drop an rt yet or if they should cyst to one more rt location.
Also as a general rule of thumb, I'm a very, VERY, greedy commander, prior 251 I figured something out. Early on, you can cyst to 5 rt locations drop each harvester and 'barely' have enough res to send 1 drifter to each spot alongside choosing your hive type. Granted I probably could have just not built a 5th drifter and instead sent one that was done building but whatever. ^_^ Of course, I'm willing to settle for 3 to 4 rt's and more often than not that's what happens but I do know that the khamm can just barely afford to cyst to 5 if he doesn't really focus on anything else.
So maybe an guide to khamming that tells Alien Khamm to stick to just the 2 nearest rt's and to let them know that they "can" try to play greedy and cyst further but that it can backfire and will also delay upgrades early game. What do you think? ^_^
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
@Nailo
yes because the pre 250 guide wasnt long enough for khams already.
(yes i need to update it to 250 or later)
To go into your points..
250 a kham could already cyst 2 RTs and send out some drifters. By use of hotkeys, good interaction and fast swapping inbetween areas.
This ment you had learned your basics and was now applying them to some more advanced play.
Now you brainlessly queue a cyst, can send a drifter and think with nothing you do. You dont need to pick, further devaluating the games ability to learn you to priorise tasks.
You also stated you area greedy comm and did not reuse early drifters. (Sorry that does not compute :P). So the game showed you the disadvantage of not fully using your units. The brainless queueing again does the exact opposite.
I like the GL and flamer damage nerfs. Maybe even a bit more of that would be perfect. And I like the cyst chains. Frankly, farming cysts was getting pretty boring. The minigun change is probably also good.
Things are still pretty tedious, though. I still don't like the micromanagement involved with drifters, this is just as tedious as playing cyst farmer was before. And I'd like cysts to get a lot more HP when you mist them or something. It is still too easy to constantly disrupt cyst chains.
I'd also still like to have egg spawns outside of the hives back somehow, and ways for the aliens to nail down locations in absence of viable gorge / clog wall / hydra / whip defences. This would also be a way to lessen the ability of marines to constantly disrupt cyst chains, by the way...
250 a kham could already cyst 2 RTs and send out some drifters. By use of hotkeys, good interaction and fast swapping inbetween areas.
This ment you had learned your basics and was now applying them to some more advanced play.
Now you brainlessly queue a cyst, can send a drifter and think with nothing you do. You dont need to pick, further devaluating the games ability to learn you to priorise tasks.
As far as I'm concerned, "use of hotkeys, good interaction and fast swapping between areas" shouldn't be needed for the basic game mechanic of building resources. This is just artificially detrimental to new commander's performance (and thus, their team). And once it becomes learned routine -which it does rather quickly-, it is just boring and repetitive micromanagement.
Sorry but this is some very bad decission.
The Flamethrower was not that good anyways, not against fades, not against onos, but for skulks.
This Gun gets even more useless now. I liked to play with it, but now Marines are so nerved its no fun anymore.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
@Radtoo
I can see your point and can respect that.
But I still see the cyst chain as now as much more boring then 250.
You are right. hotkeys arent needed. clicking maps works just fine for the same result. (unless we mean the cyst & medpack keys, id see those as basic tbh).
But it was perfectly doable to cyst to a tower, send a drifter and by time it was there you could place it. Any newbie could do that just fine.
So I still dont truly see a issue with the old system, esp with the issues the new one has.
@DC_Darkling
Its never, ever long enough Mhahahahaha. lol ok so I wasn't insanely greedy, but I considered just grabbing those 5 immediately to be super greedy because it was a major investment in economy with almost no tech to back it up plus that's a lot of territory to hold early on.
Actually I have a reason for not reusing early drifters, and that is they are just good for scouting out that room from sneaky marines. While I don't disagree that the 250 cysting required a lot more micro to handle, it was hard enough just to cyst fast enough, plant rt's, and keep drifters moving out to those rt spots. I could improve my micro possible and then be able to be able to control a drifter with the team while doing this but honestly this new automated cyst queing helps me help my teammates in a fight.
I will say it does have its pains and it can indeed be less 'hands on' early on than before, but only if you let it, I think this frees up the Khamms time to really start using drifter abilities early game instead of them being solely focused on eco/tech. ^_^
To be honest I'm fine with this cysting chain and I was happy prior that, so regardless of what happens I will enjoy either cysting mechanic just fine
DEVS. Please stop nerfing marines. It's getting ridiculous. I almost never see a marine victory anymore. I flame the hell out of a lurk and no kill. 5 guys surround an onos all with flamethrowers and no kill. Why can't I get armor from the main armory? It's our main armory. I get having "field welding", but it shouldn't be required in our base to get armor. STOP CRIPPING MARINES.
Since you could already do that the patch concede was released, and it was disabled the following patch, I see no reason to applaud them reverting something they broke.
@Ghosthree3 Then don't applaud them, the choice is your after all ^_^. However I see no reason why we cannot be thankful that it is fixed regardless of why it was broken.
Sorry but this is some very bad decission.
The Flamethrower was not that good anyways, not against fades, not against onos, but for skulks.
This Gun gets even more useless now. I liked to play with it, but now Marines are so nerved its no fun anymore.
Very disapointed.
Oh wow I can't believe I am reading this.
He will need to learn aim now . By the way the new cysting system is far less intuitive than the older one, the "unconnected cyst" skin is very disturbing when you set a chain , I think we need a new skin for the immatures ones.
Why STOP? The last patch has been a huge buff for marines through and through. That some things needed to be tweaked afterwards was quite obvious. I just don't get that kind of logic which is predominant on the internet. It sounds like marines have been constantly nerfed in the last few patches, which is simply not the case - read the logs.
As for now I've got problems joining 251 servers, can only join in 250 servers. I've tried to re-verify my game cache for NS2. Also tried another update on my servers but it still doesn't work.
It's like my game has gone back to 250 over the night. Anyone else experiencing this issue?
Edit: I opened up the console and it says: Main Menu Initialized at version 250..
As for now I've got problems joining 251 servers, can only join in 250 servers. I've tried to re-verify my game cache for NS2. Also tried another update on my servers but it still doesn't work.
It's like my game has gone back to 250 over the night. Anyone else experiencing this issue?
Edit: I opened up the console and it says: Main Menu Initialized at version 250..
disable all your mods or delete the mod cache and try again
But I still see the cyst chain as now as much more boring then 250.
Placing them was never any fun to begin with. Especially placing them over and over again. I think commanders - aliens or marine - should just focus on making decisions relevant to the game, not deal with repetitive prerequisite and procedures associated with building RTs. Deciding which RT gets built and which one doesn't should be enough.
But it was perfectly doable to cyst to a tower, send a drifter and by time it was there you could place it. Any newbie could do that just fine.
I observed that the difference in when they get the 3rd RT up (even assuming none of the nodes was being challenged too hard) could be more than a minute vs. a quick commander. And it is usually due to how the slower commanders were just not as fast at managing cysts and drifters, not due to them taking so long to make the actual decision whether and where to place the RTs.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I agree cysting isnt the most interesting job.
I do say cysting got even more boring.
another part is, what I experienced ingame now, that if you DO want to place cysts in nice spots covering them from probable marine fire, its a lot harder to place.
And even if you have a green spot and place it, it sometimes still shifts in location placing it not where you want.
(also hopefully unrelated, first time I was unable to cyst on perfectly valid ground, was in this patch. and a huge area also)
If you dont care about cyst placement, and you should care if you want some covered.. then this cyst system is fine.
But I havent been as deeply anoyed trying to place cysts where I want them as in this patch. Cant imagine more folk dont have this problem.
Yes, cysting is now easier yet harder at thesame time. Especially getting those cysts in the right spots at RTs can be a pain in the ass. Would love a way to toggle between auto-cysting and manual cysting, like holding shift.
the aliens are OP since #250, a good rushing alien team will pwn marines in the beginning of the map rly easy. with smaller teams like 3on3, normaly aliens will allways win. marines wont get any chance to build RT´s or come out of their base when aliens non stop rush their base.
and for now they have cyst autobuild system,.....so now its much easier for aliens.
with com vs com matches its the same. marines need to play 2 vs 1 alien to get fair commander match ^^
I'm sorry but if you're basing your statement on a 3v3 match, you're not playing the game as intended, which is why the vast majority of official servers are 16 players, and why most unofficial servers are 16+ players.
Comments
I see issues with the new cysting however.
* Players already have trouble realising cysts cost resources. Now they can mass chain them. New players will not watch the resource counter that well. Since normally new players cyst a lot slower, res keeps tricking in in around the same amount of res they use up on cysts. Now a newbie can surely spam it all gone in seconds.
yes Im asuming here, as I have not played it live yet. I still cant imagine this not happening.
* Placing cysts one by one kept newbie eyes more on cysts, realising a lot faster that they need time before the infestation spreads. Now you can queue half the map with cysts and wonder why the glowing orbs are not doing anything.
* It was a kham time sink. Do they really need LESS to do?
* I personally find cysting a tad boring, but waiting for a massive chain to grow even more boring. 1 by one atleast kept you busy.
* The one cyst grown per hive while also giving the ability to chain massive cysts chains will disallow newbie comms to further develop cyst skills in a faster pace.
'Before' they placed a cyst, saw it die, did it again, and after a cyst or 3 realised something was wrong & stop placing or ask. They could find good spots to place cysts out of line of sight as much as possible.
The new cystem discourages smart cyst placement by doing it enmass while also putting less focus on the cysts they recently placed, due to the simple mass.
The only thing the new cyst system does is freeing kham time to jump out the hive and bite till they activated on there own & not learning khams how to properly cyst.
I can not imagine any positive side to this, especially combined with the new 1 cyst per hive rule.
Oversimplifying a simple task while further obscuring the more advanced info about something only works if the task at hand is a interesting one.
Cysting isnt.
Also as a general rule of thumb, I'm a very, VERY, greedy commander, prior 251 I figured something out. Early on, you can cyst to 5 rt locations drop each harvester and 'barely' have enough res to send 1 drifter to each spot alongside choosing your hive type. Granted I probably could have just not built a 5th drifter and instead sent one that was done building but whatever. ^_^ Of course, I'm willing to settle for 3 to 4 rt's and more often than not that's what happens but I do know that the khamm can just barely afford to cyst to 5 if he doesn't really focus on anything else.
So maybe an guide to khamming that tells Alien Khamm to stick to just the 2 nearest rt's and to let them know that they "can" try to play greedy and cyst further but that it can backfire and will also delay upgrades early game. What do you think? ^_^
yes because the pre 250 guide wasnt long enough for khams already.
(yes i need to update it to 250 or later)
To go into your points..
250 a kham could already cyst 2 RTs and send out some drifters. By use of hotkeys, good interaction and fast swapping inbetween areas.
This ment you had learned your basics and was now applying them to some more advanced play.
Now you brainlessly queue a cyst, can send a drifter and think with nothing you do. You dont need to pick, further devaluating the games ability to learn you to priorise tasks.
You also stated you area greedy comm and did not reuse early drifters. (Sorry that does not compute :P). So the game showed you the disadvantage of not fully using your units. The brainless queueing again does the exact opposite.
I dislike it the more I think about it.
Things are still pretty tedious, though. I still don't like the micromanagement involved with drifters, this is just as tedious as playing cyst farmer was before. And I'd like cysts to get a lot more HP when you mist them or something. It is still too easy to constantly disrupt cyst chains.
I'd also still like to have egg spawns outside of the hives back somehow, and ways for the aliens to nail down locations in absence of viable gorge / clog wall / hydra / whip defences. This would also be a way to lessen the ability of marines to constantly disrupt cyst chains, by the way...
Oh wow I can't believe I am reading this.
I can see your point and can respect that.
But I still see the cyst chain as now as much more boring then 250.
You are right. hotkeys arent needed. clicking maps works just fine for the same result. (unless we mean the cyst & medpack keys, id see those as basic tbh).
But it was perfectly doable to cyst to a tower, send a drifter and by time it was there you could place it. Any newbie could do that just fine.
So I still dont truly see a issue with the old system, esp with the issues the new one has.
Its never, ever long enough Mhahahahaha. lol ok so I wasn't insanely greedy, but I considered just grabbing those 5 immediately to be super greedy because it was a major investment in economy with almost no tech to back it up plus that's a lot of territory to hold early on.
Actually I have a reason for not reusing early drifters, and that is they are just good for scouting out that room from sneaky marines. While I don't disagree that the 250 cysting required a lot more micro to handle, it was hard enough just to cyst fast enough, plant rt's, and keep drifters moving out to those rt spots. I could improve my micro possible and then be able to be able to control a drifter with the team while doing this but honestly this new automated cyst queing helps me help my teammates in a fight.
I will say it does have its pains and it can indeed be less 'hands on' early on than before, but only if you let it, I think this frees up the Khamms time to really start using drifter abilities early game instead of them being solely focused on eco/tech. ^_^
To be honest I'm fine with this cysting chain and I was happy prior that, so regardless of what happens I will enjoy either cysting mechanic just fine
Since you could already do that the patch concede was released, and it was disabled the following patch, I see no reason to applaud them reverting something they broke.
He will need to learn aim now
Why STOP? The last patch has been a huge buff for marines through and through. That some things needed to be tweaked afterwards was quite obvious. I just don't get that kind of logic which is predominant on the internet. It sounds like marines have been constantly nerfed in the last few patches, which is simply not the case - read the logs.
It's like my game has gone back to 250 over the night. Anyone else experiencing this issue?
Edit: I opened up the console and it says: Main Menu Initialized at version 250..
disable all your mods or delete the mod cache and try again
you missed my point. I suggest rereading it if you care.
I observed that the difference in when they get the 3rd RT up (even assuming none of the nodes was being challenged too hard) could be more than a minute vs. a quick commander. And it is usually due to how the slower commanders were just not as fast at managing cysts and drifters, not due to them taking so long to make the actual decision whether and where to place the RTs.
I do say cysting got even more boring.
another part is, what I experienced ingame now, that if you DO want to place cysts in nice spots covering them from probable marine fire, its a lot harder to place.
And even if you have a green spot and place it, it sometimes still shifts in location placing it not where you want.
(also hopefully unrelated, first time I was unable to cyst on perfectly valid ground, was in this patch. and a huge area also)
If you dont care about cyst placement, and you should care if you want some covered.. then this cyst system is fine.
But I havent been as deeply anoyed trying to place cysts where I want them as in this patch. Cant imagine more folk dont have this problem.
I'm sorry but if you're basing your statement on a 3v3 match, you're not playing the game as intended, which is why the vast majority of official servers are 16 players, and why most unofficial servers are 16+ players.
This is hilarious if you're talking about the transition from 250 to 251.