Balance since latest patches.
Volomon
Join Date: 2003-08-11 Member: 19406Members
Join Date: 2003-08-11 Member: 19406Members
I don't know about you guys but the game essentially seems broken now. Marines no longer appear to have an even odds of winning. Instead they seem to have dipped by 10-20%. Where as Aliens use to only have a what 3-6% edge?
I think what needs to be done here is that, first off IPs should not be 20. Purely for the reason that not all servers have a standard set of players, I mean you got a 12 man team you practically have to drop a second IP almost immediately. If it's 6 players then you can stick with one. The decision when to drop one however has really become a real issue. One 5 extra res might not seem like much but the long term impacts of the increase can cost valuable time that can be devoted toward other research or equipment. On some teams you need three or four, when the players are just not that good.
This also seems to be an issue with researching upgrades, quite often now we get games that were similar to previous games but where we seem to almost never reach research caps, like tech 3, because for the alien everything has remained the same. So where the marines could at least be ready for an ONO attack, we appear now to be completely unable to tech to a level where we can defend against these attacks. The counter for this appears to be rushing Jetpacks/Exos, which not all players are good with and its a hefty investment in both Commander Res and Personal Res.
Another thing that is extremely annoying and horrid balancing is the map with (I forget the name of the map) containment, turbine, lava falls, ect,. has had Chasm changed. Now it's become exactly like Landing Pad, impossible to defend. The aliens have an advantage to take that node out over and over, because one they come through Lava Falls, which is a nice spot for lerks to kill marines. Especially at the start of a match. So Skulks come in through what is it FOUR possible entrances. Meaning you don't know which way they are coming. No only that but the RT is in a niche so it's very easy for a skulk to get behind it and plow away at it. Mines don't work because the target is such an easy hit, multiple skulks keep hitting it. You use to be able to use Chasm as a resource, but now its just a resource sink for Marines. Because for marines to jump on to that pipe (its possible) and climb up to that RT is not as easy and probably wasn't meant to be used like that.
I mean not even landing pad has that many ways in, essentially Chasm has 6 or 7 ways in. That makes no sense on any level in any universe, and in anyone's head. Why would you need that many ways in?
Now I already know what most people are going to say, YES, the Marines can win still if they have a good team. However it appears to have just shifted, games that were challenging and fun, have now become boring and one sided. At this point it's only worth playing the Alien side till this is balanced.
I think what needs to be done here is that, first off IPs should not be 20. Purely for the reason that not all servers have a standard set of players, I mean you got a 12 man team you practically have to drop a second IP almost immediately. If it's 6 players then you can stick with one. The decision when to drop one however has really become a real issue. One 5 extra res might not seem like much but the long term impacts of the increase can cost valuable time that can be devoted toward other research or equipment. On some teams you need three or four, when the players are just not that good.
This also seems to be an issue with researching upgrades, quite often now we get games that were similar to previous games but where we seem to almost never reach research caps, like tech 3, because for the alien everything has remained the same. So where the marines could at least be ready for an ONO attack, we appear now to be completely unable to tech to a level where we can defend against these attacks. The counter for this appears to be rushing Jetpacks/Exos, which not all players are good with and its a hefty investment in both Commander Res and Personal Res.
Another thing that is extremely annoying and horrid balancing is the map with (I forget the name of the map) containment, turbine, lava falls, ect,. has had Chasm changed. Now it's become exactly like Landing Pad, impossible to defend. The aliens have an advantage to take that node out over and over, because one they come through Lava Falls, which is a nice spot for lerks to kill marines. Especially at the start of a match. So Skulks come in through what is it FOUR possible entrances. Meaning you don't know which way they are coming. No only that but the RT is in a niche so it's very easy for a skulk to get behind it and plow away at it. Mines don't work because the target is such an easy hit, multiple skulks keep hitting it. You use to be able to use Chasm as a resource, but now its just a resource sink for Marines. Because for marines to jump on to that pipe (its possible) and climb up to that RT is not as easy and probably wasn't meant to be used like that.
I mean not even landing pad has that many ways in, essentially Chasm has 6 or 7 ways in. That makes no sense on any level in any universe, and in anyone's head. Why would you need that many ways in?
Now I already know what most people are going to say, YES, the Marines can win still if they have a good team. However it appears to have just shifted, games that were challenging and fun, have now become boring and one sided. At this point it's only worth playing the Alien side till this is balanced.
Comments
My personal experience from yesterday's gaming is that the upgrades cost increase feels about right. I don't tend to put a second IP down for a while (I don't play on huge servers), so the increased cost for that isn't such a big deal. I would always try to avoid putting a second IP down early if you can (obviously this depends on how good your marines are in comparison to the aliens, though), as that early res being pumped into upgrades, extractors, or other early tech (phase early on large maps like descent, for example) can make a far bigger impact on the game, provided that you have a sufficient respawn rate for the early to mid game.
Chasm is a key strategic point in refinery. It may not be possible to hold the RT there for either team, but it's a place you absolutely want to stop the other team from securing. It's nothing like landing pad, which is just an opened out corridor, essentially. On Docking, the most similar point would be stability monitoring (or maintenance, depending on starting hive/base locations). These points, as long as they are easy enough for BOTH teams to attack, and relatively difficult to hold, can be fantastic for keeping a map interesting and dynamic. Chasm is, I believe, a weaker point for aliens than it is for marines. It's still moderately easy for aliens to attack, but once marines have a foot-hold there, it's quite often GG I find.
From last night's gaming, I found a pretty even win rate, barring two early alien rushes that worked because the marine comm didn't communicate (despite having a mic!?). Once games had got past the 3 minute mark, I found they were generally pretty difficult to call until much later on in the game.
Win rates are good base, but it wont give a whole truth how the game is won. Competitive and public games differ very much and if there is "even teams" (in that case even competitive teams are much closer for that) it would be much better base. Ofc biased balance's will be fixed, like earlier onos was OP or every little thing was
Little hint what's coming to game http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=130391092&searchtext=
I'm lost on this 50/50 thing, if a game like counter-strike tried to achieve a 50/50 win rate between CT/Ts I think the game would be destroyed(not that it hasn't already), since winning is dependent on the strategies used per side, even if one side has advantages in some situations
when you have average players plus 2-3 good players on each team; it always feels like a concrete marine win.
a good marine can totally exploit average skulks in 1v1; always pre-aiming at doorways and vents, instakilling any skulk that inevitably pokes his head out. this leaves almost all marines alive, including good marines, versus the remaining good skulk players. once the good alien players upgrade to lerk; they become slightly more powerful than the good marines, but not enough to outweight the deficiency of average skulks.
it's down to terrible illogical tactics rather than fundamental imbalance. but it's still pretty boring when pretty much any reasonably skilled pub server turns out to be an absolute domination for marines unless more good players stack the alien team (in which case it's absolute domination for aliens).
the other day we had like 6-7 skulks in maintenance (docking); the marines were in the process of setting up a base in terminal, but their main base was locker room - so i suggested we attack locker rooms. someone says "noooo we wont do anything there - let's go terminal now!", low and behold by the time we get to terminal there are 10 marines spread throughout the room waiting for us and we get decimated. then EXACTLY THE SAME happened later, our last ditch attack with 3 onos and fade/lerk, everyone was grouped up in east wing of all places - attacked into the entire marine team including exo's and got destroyed.
FFS... if you get ~3 guys surrounding a phase gate you can make it impossible for the marines to get through to defend. that means with a tiny level of coordination any poorly defended base is for the taking. there's no sense in attacking a room with an active phase gate and filled with able marines.
Aimbots and pro players - significant marine advantage early, as you can see in recorded comp matches. Those marines just kill the skulks very easily
Pub "can't hit a barn's door" newbies - aliens steamroll everything, because 1) marines can't shoot 2) marines require communication which is absent most of the time.
How do you want to balance that?
IMO 244 was too in favor for marines, 245 seems much better.
Moreover, marines have medspam, which is very powerful, but seldom used by those "mute" pub commanders.
There are 5 phases every NS2 game goes through:
Phase 1- Marine bias
Start of the game, marines have the advantage off the bat in combat due to less movement speed and thus in theory less ability to harass/control map territory. Marines need to move out in groups to hold and keep territory and there resource gathering high. After the initial start, aliens should slowly lose territory to marines pushing outwards in coordinated units.
Phase 2 - Alien bias
First higher alien lifeforms arrive (Lerks), the marines should now start losing territory until shotguns and Weapons/Armour/Phasegates allow them to equalize with the alien re-expansion and likely start pushing aliens backwards.
Phase 3 - Marine bias
Lerks are on the field, aliens are about to get fades, Marines now have shotguns and possibly Armour 1/2 or Weapons 1/2 and the lerks are starting to become ineffective against groups. Marines need to re-capture any territory they lost during phase 2.
Phase 4 - Equal (Depending on your teams performance in earlier phases)
Fades arrive, marines by this point have either held enough territory to viably get jetpacks & higher weapon and armour levels to counter the fades, or they haven't. This is a key turning point, if aliens do NOT get fades asap marines will steam roll through the lower life-forms and strangle hold your pRes delaying your Onos perhaps perminently, this happens extremely frequently in public servers as people save for Onos' and you have 3/4 people around 60 res and are losing territory all over the place but everyones mentality is "as soon as I get an Onos we can win..." by which point you are on 1 hive and staring down the barrel of an Exo / Arc Jetpack train.
Phase 5 - Equal (Depending on your teams performance in earlier phases)
Onos arrive, by this point, if the marines have killed a few other higher life forms (especially fades) and kept their base(s) and forward offensive outpost it is essentially won for marines. Exceptions exist, most notably if they ONLY hold the bases and lost all other resource points and have been starved of upgrades.
During each of these phases there are pivotal things each side can do to greatly effect the out come of the game. But these swing moments decrease in opportunity the longer you are in the phase. Each phase also capitalizes on the previous, if aliens win the first phase and put the marine economy but they succeed in putting down the early Lerks, it can obviously swing back the other way - because if other players have to go lerk to compensate they delay the fades.
Notably most of these situations are how marines react to the aliens reaching certain key points of their tech tree - this is because the alien tech tree is far more linear and easier to define. There are equal key points for aliens to take advantage of with good team work and timing but they are less to do with killing specific life-forms, more removing strategic locations from marine control, eg 2 skulks sneak past enemy lines and harass RT's while the Marine force is split up 3 skulks (or 2 and a lerk) sneak into a forward marine phase-gate location and all focus the gate down, essentially re-capturing the territory for aliens.
If a team which should be in a falling back phase is still able to push forward and contest more territory, then you are playing on a losing team and without a counter offensive or successful "big play" your just fighting down a hill until the coup de grâce is delt. Examples of big plays are generally the mistake of the enemy team rather than the success of yours. eg, a fades being killed where he could've(should have?) escaped. A sneaky marine phase gate (where were your drifters/scouts?) a power node going down in one of your primary locations (1st or 2nd CC area)
I believe the balance right now is actually extremely good, as always the better team will win, sometimes that is only just the case, other times it's a complete shut-down and you get locked into your spawn in 5 minutes. Shit happens, even randoming or people with the best of intentions with sometimes stack, ultimately we are in a very good state right now!
Quite probably the single most powerful thing a marine commander can do is front line support for his troops.
Yea, there is no limit on how many medpacks you can absorb, so if you stand on a pack of medpacks the only alien that can kill you is a charging Onos (100 damage base + upto 2x damage if he charges fast enough).
Actually, if your commander was fast enough to drop medpacks at max speed (0.3s delay), you would heal at 150 hits per 0.9 sec ... which happens to be exactly as much as a skulk do damage (75 hits/0.45 sec).
fixed
But if the skulk manages to land bites of 75 everytime, you need to absorb two medpacks before the second bite lands to survive. One medpack would only bring you up to 75 from 25, which means the skulk will kill you.
I am the medpack dodging champion! I feel that if someone successfully med-packs me, confetti should fly out from my head and an applause should be heard.
I am with you on refinery being the worst map.