Big Maps & Small Maps

Mouse

While the size of the current maps does make for good games, I wonder about the potential for larger & smaller maps.

Current maps:
4-5 tech points, 9-11 res nodes & ~30 secs between each tech point

Big map:
6-7 tech points, 12-14 res nodes & ~45 secs between each tech point

Small map:
2-3 tech points, 6-8 res nodes & ~15 secs between each tech point

I imagine that games on smaller maps would play a lot like Combat. Fast paced, full of rushes with very little tech researched. Games on larger maps would probably be slower and involve a lot of late game tech (endless Onos vs EXO) and perhaps also require greater reliance on AI units and phase gates.

Do you think larger or smaller maps could also have a place in NS2?
and do you think these maps could work for competitive 6v6 play?

Seahunts

I think the 2 or 3 tech point maps would hurt aliens. If marines got the 2nd tech point, you'd F4 or concede if you didn't take it back very fast. Even 1 hive aliens vs 1 CC marines would heavily favour marines. The can still get W3 A3, shot guns etc.

Not sure what would happen on the big maps, but they would at least allow both sides to get full tech.

Mattk50

big maps would likely turn into eternal stalements

ScardyBob

Ironically enough I just made a post that explains the problems with map size in NS2.

Short version is that to properly balance the risk and reward of expansion, NS2 maps need to be relatively small and have few res nodes (as compared to a RTS). Drop the size/nodes further and the already dominating micro becomes overwhelming (e.g. NS2 combat). Increase it too much and the macro devolves into spam (e.g. constant mass lifeform/weapon explosions).

Mouse

@ScardyBob Ironically enough, that was the post that made me start this thread

Neoken

What if one was to find a way to increase the risk of placing extractors while diminishing the reward, in order to accomodate larger maps that have more res nodes?

Say for instance by increasing the cost of placing an extractor and implementing a limit to extractor count, and combining this with having different tiers of resource nozzles available on the map, providing different amounts of res income. This would discourage the teams from just placing extractors everywhere on their side of the map, but force them to more carefully choose certain locations to expand to. This might even give the teams a bit more strategic flexibility and general variety in how games develop.

Just some theorycrafting though.

Know pain

On a 2 tech point map marines win every single time. It happens every once in a rare while during combat servers theres a glitch where its standard mode on a 1v1 tech point map.

halfofaheaven

A 2 tech point map... so basically combat?

I say no thanks to either small or large maps. It's already hard enough to balance around the ONE tech point difference Veil offers, having to balance the game around a 3-4 tech point difference between maps would be a disaster.

LV426-Colonist

Like they always say, the bigger the better.

ScardyBob

Mouse wrote: »

@ScardyBob Ironically enough, that was the post that made me start this thread

lol, should have guessed that.

The best solution to fix this issue would be to implement some sort of RT upgrading system. You need to make it more viable to upgrade a few close RTs rather than mass RT spam.

halfofaheaven

Upgrade for what? More health/armour? Electrification? Faster res capture?

Terranigma

Actually, I would not agree on that definition of big and small. These terms describe the size of the map but the size then again, is in no fix correlation the the amount of res- or tech-points. Maps in NS1 used to be a lot bigger, and more complex, than NS2 maps which usually consits of several big rooms connected by short passages or tunnels, often with some sort of hub in the middle of the map. You can put 4,5,6, more or less tech-points on that map without changing its size. I think approaching the amount of available points with terms like small or big is no help.

I agree with you, that I'd love to see bigger maps in terms of size. Honestly, I'd love to see NS1-style maps. Very complex, long, tight corridors. The level design of NS1 and NS2 varies vastly and, though I like the new NS2 approach, I think it can become dull with some time as all these huge rooms do not convey the same tight atmosphere you've felt when you played NS1 and spent most of the time in tight and long hallways. I know that didn't want that for NS2, though, I hope they change their opinion. Bigger and more complex is what I'd love see.

More tech-points than 4 or 5? Actually, no. More res-nodes? Why not, depends on the mapsize and layout I guess.

ScardyBob

halfofaheaven wrote: »

Upgrade for what? More health/armour? Electrification? Faster res capture?

For increased res flow mostly.

For example, in SC2 you typically increase your res flow by building more workers to harvest minerals/vespene gas at limited number of resource locations (e.g. main balance + 1-2 natural expansions). In NS2, on the other hand, you increase your res flow by capturing more resource locations.

This difference messes with the fundamental size and layout of maps in NS2 as they need to have fewer resource locations (to prevent spam) and smaller overall size (to bring the risk/reward of expansion into balance) than equivalent RTS maps.

In SC2, even on the smallest maps, many if not most resource locations are left either barely or untouched throughout a match. In NS2, its rare to have a res node not have an extractor or harvester on it at some point in the game and many spend most of their time captured rather than free. The cost/benefit of expanding is high in SC2, but low in NS2.

Savant

A couple obvious problems with smaller maps are:

-It inherently favours marines since aliens need 3 hives to reach max tech and marines only need two
-The game would be leaving out much of the later game elements, becoming shorter and less varied

To have a map with less than 4 tech points there would need to be some kind of mod to even things out.

AurOn2

or, aliens need to not be as gimped on 1 hive as marines (arent) on 1 commstation. aliens get none of their tech, marines get half of it.
WUT?!

_Necro_

Bigger maps are alien favored. Longer travel times are better for aliens to keep up more RTs in the long run. (It's like playing with low player count on normal maps, like 4vs4) Phase gates can't be really used to more than 4 locations.

It's like playing maps with more or less players than the default.
Less players = big map = Alien favored
Many players = small map = Marine favored