Even if changing upgrades costs p.res, it would probably still have to take place near a hive or have a significant cost/gestation time attached to it to discourage fqst switching from cara to regen, etc over returning to a hive. It's definitely a great concept though, aliens need p.res sinks and aliens being able to change upgrades again is long overdue. (Strategic flexibility on higher lifeforms, though that also implies all upgrades are made equally viable which isn't yet the case today)
Also 'evolve last used traits' button please, or automatically have skulks spawn with last used upgrades. Having to re-evolve upgrades after every skulk death is quite honestly a nuisance and awfully new player unfriendly and I honestly can't believe it still hasn't been addressed in vanilla... (I remember Charlie talking in a gamespot playtest about how they should probably add this just after launch...)
I see no need for having to be near the hive to make the switch. In the time it takes to switch to regen, heal up and then re-evolve cara, chances are you could have already made it back to a hive (or crags/gorge at a forward base) and nearly ready to go again.
If needs be, have it cost 2 res to make the switch (20 res in the BT mod).
I don't think it would be a big deal if onoses didn't change their upgrade much. It's okay to have the behemoth class as the only one where buying a change in upgrade is very significant. In fact, when I think of the advantages of swapping from regen-harass to cara-basecrush on a whim, it feels right that there would be a sizeable investment.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@tweadle : Meh.. I dislike having to financially plan my own resources without knowing what the commander or situation will dictate.
Upgrades constantly flow in during a round and the player on the ground rarely knows what's coming next (pub) and sometimes even the commander adjusts his upgrade choices depending on a shifting battlefield.
Marines are more able to adapt to a situation given their comparatively vast pres sinks with equipment, this is why its less noticeable on marines I believe - more choices available means less dependability on the future decisions of the commander in determining the viability of your lifeform (he got spores before leap? Or your fade only has celerity? Ugh )
Allow the evolving team to adapt a little more to a changing battlefield with their often mere one or two choices in upgrades just makes way more sense to me. Making this an "investment" or something so punishing defeats the purpose Imo. Should be a consideration at most, not a large tempting risk leading to an economical nerf for a team attempting to adapt to a changing battlefield.
Hmmm, I think it follows that the more advanced you are, the more significant the energy required for a re-volution. I don't think the idea in general would defeated in purpose just because one class needs to think hard before changing.
At the end of the day, I'd have to see it played out and gameplay is what would matter most. It just doesn't feel immediately wrong to me is all i'm saying.
From what I gathered browsing the forums a lot of things from this mod will make it into vanilla NS2. So I had a couple of questions/concerns.
Not sure I like the disabling of the gradual melee attacks. I'm not great at the game, and getting in 25 or 50 damage is about all that keeps me useful as a skulk. If your good hitting 75 most of the time isn't an issue, and taking gradual melee away wouldnt hurt you. So the feature seems geared twoards keeping bad skulkers in the game, which is pretty cool.
Can you self repair with a welder? Armories not healing armor is kinda worriesome too. Both teams take damage really quickly. Leaving aliens with the ability to fix armor on their own, while taking it away from marines could be an issue.
Edit: I wonder about the Exo suit changes too. Seems like the biggest issue with them is multiple MACs repairing them at once. Those MACs make them near invincible untill the MACs get bile bombed to death. Changing MACs so only 1 can repair something at a time could be a pretty signifigant nerf to Exo on its own. Though trading armor for a mobility boost via the jump jets might be kinda cool.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited April 2013
A bite in this mod isn't only successful if you hit a 75 in the vanilla game.
I believe the width range is 1.1 meters in vanilla, and that accounts for all 3 damage steps. In this mod a landed bite is a 75 every time with a width of 0.7 meters. I think it's plenty generous.
I think the armories not welding armor experiment has been a tremendous success in this mod. Using the 50 or so rounds I've played on it to judge, I've been pleasantly surprised by how many people are welding each other during spare moments and think it's been playing into the marines favor in comparison to the running back to base and hump armory strategy on the base game.
A bite in this mod isn't only successful if you hit a 75 in the vanilla game.
I believe the width range is 1.1 meters in vanilla, and that accounts for all 3 damage steps. In this mod a landed bite is a 75 every time with a width of 0.7 meters. I think it's plenty generous.
I think the armories not welding armor experiment has been a tremendous success in this mod. Using the 50 or so rounds I've played on it to judge, I've been pleasantly surprised by how many people are welding each other during spare moments and think it's been playing into the marines favor in comparison to the running back to base and hump armory strategy on the base game.
Still going backwards through the posts. Glad to hear that the bite width is still pretty wide. I need to get this mod downloaded, and give it a shot.
I wouldnt have guessed that many people would be willing to spend time welding to keep each others armor up. Don't often see to many people going out of their way in other games to play support unless they are a class dedicated to it. Still not sure I like the idea of having to rely on someone else for something that important. I suppose I will get a better feel for it once I get this downloaded.
Yeah, practically it isn't a big problem. Even if nobody welds. Think about it, in vanilla you only have armor in the first engagement after respawn. If your com is good and does medpack and ammo you, you would waste time running back to the armory. Without any bought weapon your life is worthless. So better run and attack some harvester. And in this cases you had no armor anyway after the first skulk chewed on your ankles.
The only time you feel the change is when you camp at an armory defending an area. And I never liked this stale gameplay. Neither as alien (where it feels your bites are useless, because he will just heal up in 2 seconds) nor as marine (where it was a cluttered mess to fight and armor hump all the time in the base).
A bite in this mod isn't only successful if you hit a 75 in the vanilla game.
I believe the width range is 1.1 meters in vanilla, and that accounts for all 3 damage steps. In this mod a landed bite is a 75 every time with a width of 0.7 meters. I think it's plenty generous.
I think the armories not welding armor experiment has been a tremendous success in this mod. Using the 50 or so rounds I've played on it to judge, I've been pleasantly surprised by how many people are welding each other during spare moments and think it's been playing into the marines favor in comparison to the running back to base and hump armory strategy on the base game.
Still going backwards through the posts. Glad to hear that the bite width is still pretty wide. I need to get this mod downloaded, and give it a shot.
I wouldnt have guessed that many people would be willing to spend time welding to keep each others armor up. Don't often see to many people going out of their way in other games to play support unless they are a class dedicated to it. Still not sure I like the idea of having to rely on someone else for something that important. I suppose I will get a better feel for it once I get this downloaded.
Besides that it makes an early Robotics Factory more viable. I often go with that strategy and then simply assign a MAC to "Follow & Weld" the Armory, so whoever gets close to it will get welded up again as usual. If needed, I can also send the MAC with a team to support it on the run and build another MAC in base for later.
Welders also cost only 4 res in the mod, so it's not that bad to pick one up.
And last but not least there is the Nano Armor upgrade in the Command Station for 200 (20 in vanilla) res that will enable a slow armor regeneration rate on all marines (0.75 armor per second). So even if nobody welds you, you will still get your armor repaired if you survive long enough.
So, late game happens, A3/W3 is tied to a CC, and the aliens kill it. Doesn't that instantly snowball into a marine loss as soon as they lose control of one tech point? A3 is not that important, but W3 is, especially once onii and carapace fades hit the field. I know you can manage fades with w1 and shotguns if you're good, but it seems like tying tech to chairs is going to have marines "in a bad way" if you know what I mean.
(this is all just theory, i've yet to play a full game with the balance test, I've never managed to find a populated american server for it)
Maybe how about you Need 3 CCs to research A/W-3, but you don't lose it, unless you lose your last Arms Lab
This is tale of an epic journey. Of a brave young warrior, who needed his armour repaired, he went from villager to villager begging to please repair his armor before the creatures arrived, what must have seemed like ages as people ran by our warrior in need without even a second look as he begged them to help. Then our epic warrior had a thought, why not return to his command, surely they have a blacksmith that can repair his armor as they always have. The warrior quickly made pace, dodged and narrowly avoided death, finally arrived at camp he let out a sigh of relief as he has always known base camp to be a last bastion of relief from the horrors of the battle field a place he had always known where he can seek medical attention and repair and resupply. Gasping, to his dismay the blacksmith was no longer there, who would repair his armour now if our warrior was unable to repair his armor himself nor would any of the villagers come to his aid. Sadly, the end of this tale did not bode well for our brave warrior.
(Every round of balance test when playing with non veteran players.)
The cohesion is just not there enough for casual players (again non veteran NS2 players, unfortunately it's mostly only veteran players that even venture onto the balance test server) to be constantly welding one another all the time. I'm still for forward armories not being able to repair armor, however an established tech point HAS to be somewhere were you can recover as a player without having to rely on others assistance, you never have to see aliens huddled together licking each other's wounds to regain their armor.
Nor frankly even as a veteran player, it's hardly enjoyable gameplay running around begging for someone to weld there should at least be general expectation to be able to recover when you're in your established base, not faced with potential downtime as you stand there like a begger hoping someone will drop a quarter in your cup.
Before anyone replies with "Well I always weld others." give that some thought for a second. Yes,veteran players will weld, people who post and read these forums weld, the vast majority of players who will never visit this forum, have no greater interest other then an enjoyable experience after along day at work or school, they just want to enjoy some combat without a massive downtime that required amount of cohesion and awareness just isn't there all the time (it's rather a crap shoot). It's also a massive turn off to a lot of people when they have to rely on someone else as the only source of recuperation and sometimes that help just doesn't come and they're just faced with extended downtime, standing there.
Re: being able to switch upgrades - Can't you just make it so that if you've evolved an upgrade (like carapace) if an additional upgrade of the same hive type is researched (like regen) since you've chosen your upgrade, you may choose to switch to it, at no cost, but if you do, you're locked into using that upgrade until you die.
That way if you're a lerk and only carapace is researched, you can then change to regen later whilst still being an upgraded lerk during that time. You don't have to rely on waiting for an upgrade you want and remain upgradeless during that time. And it also prevents abuse like being a cara onos evolving to regen and then back to carapace.
Didn't it already work like this in one of the earlier ns2 builds? Or am I imagining things?
Wow sewlek! The mod is feeling really great now, fade felt great, lerk felt great, skulk felt great, ummm.. just in general the two matches I played felt really solid. (also fade can't blink or shadowstep in ready room, no big deal)
Haven't seen onos not sure if it's the same or changed, anyone got any input if onos changed a bit in the last update or so?
@arkanti an advanced armory healing armor sounds nice, but I really enjoy having to enforce teamwork via welding. Also it helps aliens later on when marines are constantly being harassed and always needing to weld each other
We run the BT mod server in Australia which normally gets populated with 50% vets & 50% new players. People pick up the notion of welding very quickly... again stop trying to hand hold noobs. They are not retarded, give them an opportunity to learn and they will do so. Pub players welded in NS1, they will learn to do so again in NS2.
Please don't give suggestions if you haven't played the mod at all.
I have, just not in a long time. Was just going off the discussion in the other page.
It has been ages since the change of getting both upgrades on one building was not in this balance test. The very thing you had as an example is impossible in the current mod and has been for a few months.
On the subject of wielders. Yes, it sucks not getting fully healed. However it is a requirement to make the Marine side less braindead. The Aliens needed either a massive damage buff, Marines loose scaling armor, or Armories stop healing armor. One of those three needed to happen to improve the health of the game and the armory took the dive.
Since you are just going to disagree every post since you think that makes your opinion correct, why don't you try to defend it gameplay wise besides the fact it can be annoying at times.
We run the BT mod server in Australia which normally gets populated with 50% vets & 50% new players. People pick up the notion of welding very quickly... again stop trying to hand hold noobs. They are not retarded, give them an opportunity to learn and they will do so. Pub players welded in NS1, they will learn to do so again in NS2.
All you really do is put off the rookies who just bought the game even more so than they already do because of what they site as the "complexity" of the game.
It worked in ns1,people get used to welding which leads onto welding structures. At the moment there is no incentive for newbies to get a welder.
Exo on 1 cc doesnt bode well (for my experience)
Once again, it only worked in NS1 because it was the same people playing the game over and over, very rarely was there actually someone new to the game.
UWE needs to try to cater to rookies joining the game rather than adding even more tasks for them to try and keep track of, which has already been a large complaint of why many don't keep playing NS2.
Comments
Also 'evolve last used traits' button please, or automatically have skulks spawn with last used upgrades. Having to re-evolve upgrades after every skulk death is quite honestly a nuisance and awfully new player unfriendly and I honestly can't believe it still hasn't been addressed in vanilla... (I remember Charlie talking in a gamespot playtest about how they should probably add this just after launch...)
I would not pay 7.5 pres (or now 75 pres) to swap regen for cara as an Onos.
If needs be, have it cost 2 res to make the switch (20 res in the BT mod).
Maybe aliens can live on Mucous Membrane as well? Never got it used on me, so I can't tell about the effect.
I feel like the only khammander who is actually using the new Drifter micromanagement thus far.
Upgrades constantly flow in during a round and the player on the ground rarely knows what's coming next (pub) and sometimes even the commander adjusts his upgrade choices depending on a shifting battlefield.
Marines are more able to adapt to a situation given their comparatively vast pres sinks with equipment, this is why its less noticeable on marines I believe - more choices available means less dependability on the future decisions of the commander in determining the viability of your lifeform (he got spores before leap? Or your fade only has celerity? Ugh )
Allow the evolving team to adapt a little more to a changing battlefield with their often mere one or two choices in upgrades just makes way more sense to me. Making this an "investment" or something so punishing defeats the purpose Imo. Should be a consideration at most, not a large tempting risk leading to an economical nerf for a team attempting to adapt to a changing battlefield.
At the end of the day, I'd have to see it played out and gameplay is what would matter most. It just doesn't feel immediately wrong to me is all i'm saying.
Not sure I like the disabling of the gradual melee attacks. I'm not great at the game, and getting in 25 or 50 damage is about all that keeps me useful as a skulk. If your good hitting 75 most of the time isn't an issue, and taking gradual melee away wouldnt hurt you. So the feature seems geared twoards keeping bad skulkers in the game, which is pretty cool.
Can you self repair with a welder? Armories not healing armor is kinda worriesome too. Both teams take damage really quickly. Leaving aliens with the ability to fix armor on their own, while taking it away from marines could be an issue.
Edit: I wonder about the Exo suit changes too. Seems like the biggest issue with them is multiple MACs repairing them at once. Those MACs make them near invincible untill the MACs get bile bombed to death. Changing MACs so only 1 can repair something at a time could be a pretty signifigant nerf to Exo on its own. Though trading armor for a mobility boost via the jump jets might be kinda cool.
I believe the width range is 1.1 meters in vanilla, and that accounts for all 3 damage steps. In this mod a landed bite is a 75 every time with a width of 0.7 meters. I think it's plenty generous.
I think the armories not welding armor experiment has been a tremendous success in this mod. Using the 50 or so rounds I've played on it to judge, I've been pleasantly surprised by how many people are welding each other during spare moments and think it's been playing into the marines favor in comparison to the running back to base and hump armory strategy on the base game.
Still going backwards through the posts. Glad to hear that the bite width is still pretty wide. I need to get this mod downloaded, and give it a shot.
I wouldnt have guessed that many people would be willing to spend time welding to keep each others armor up. Don't often see to many people going out of their way in other games to play support unless they are a class dedicated to it. Still not sure I like the idea of having to rely on someone else for something that important. I suppose I will get a better feel for it once I get this downloaded.
The only time you feel the change is when you camp at an armory defending an area. And I never liked this stale gameplay. Neither as alien (where it feels your bites are useless, because he will just heal up in 2 seconds) nor as marine (where it was a cluttered mess to fight and armor hump all the time in the base).
Besides that it makes an early Robotics Factory more viable. I often go with that strategy and then simply assign a MAC to "Follow & Weld" the Armory, so whoever gets close to it will get welded up again as usual. If needed, I can also send the MAC with a team to support it on the run and build another MAC in base for later.
Welders also cost only 4 res in the mod, so it's not that bad to pick one up.
And last but not least there is the Nano Armor upgrade in the Command Station for 200 (20 in vanilla) res that will enable a slow armor regeneration rate on all marines (0.75 armor per second). So even if nobody welds you, you will still get your armor repaired if you survive long enough.
Maybe how about you Need 3 CCs to research A/W-3, but you don't lose it, unless you lose your last Arms Lab
I meant arms lab :-/ Always get those names confused
(Every round of balance test when playing with non veteran players.)
The cohesion is just not there enough for casual players (again non veteran NS2 players, unfortunately it's mostly only veteran players that even venture onto the balance test server) to be constantly welding one another all the time. I'm still for forward armories not being able to repair armor, however an established tech point HAS to be somewhere were you can recover as a player without having to rely on others assistance, you never have to see aliens huddled together licking each other's wounds to regain their armor.
Nor frankly even as a veteran player, it's hardly enjoyable gameplay running around begging for someone to weld there should at least be general expectation to be able to recover when you're in your established base, not faced with potential downtime as you stand there like a begger hoping someone will drop a quarter in your cup.
Before anyone replies with "Well I always weld others." give that some thought for a second. Yes,veteran players will weld, people who post and read these forums weld, the vast majority of players who will never visit this forum, have no greater interest other then an enjoyable experience after along day at work or school, they just want to enjoy some combat without a massive downtime that required amount of cohesion and awareness just isn't there all the time (it's rather a crap shoot). It's also a massive turn off to a lot of people when they have to rely on someone else as the only source of recuperation and sometimes that help just doesn't come and they're just faced with extended downtime, standing there.
People aren't going to build forward advanced armouries.
Good luck having that happen regularly playing with non-vets........
That way if you're a lerk and only carapace is researched, you can then change to regen later whilst still being an upgraded lerk during that time. You don't have to rely on waiting for an upgrade you want and remain upgradeless during that time. And it also prevents abuse like being a cara onos evolving to regen and then back to carapace.
Didn't it already work like this in one of the earlier ns2 builds? Or am I imagining things?
Haven't seen onos not sure if it's the same or changed, anyone got any input if onos changed a bit in the last update or so?
@arkanti an advanced armory healing armor sounds nice, but I really enjoy having to enforce teamwork via welding. Also it helps aliens later on when marines are constantly being harassed and always needing to weld each other
I have, just not in a long time. Was just going off the discussion in the other page.
We run the BT mod server in Australia which normally gets populated with 50% vets & 50% new players. People pick up the notion of welding very quickly... again stop trying to hand hold noobs. They are not retarded, give them an opportunity to learn and they will do so. Pub players welded in NS1, they will learn to do so again in NS2.
It has been ages since the change of getting both upgrades on one building was not in this balance test. The very thing you had as an example is impossible in the current mod and has been for a few months.
On the subject of wielders. Yes, it sucks not getting fully healed. However it is a requirement to make the Marine side less braindead. The Aliens needed either a massive damage buff, Marines loose scaling armor, or Armories stop healing armor. One of those three needed to happen to improve the health of the game and the armory took the dive.
All you really do is put off the rookies who just bought the game even more so than they already do because of what they site as the "complexity" of the game.
Exo on 1 cc doesnt bode well (for my experience)
Once again, it only worked in NS1 because it was the same people playing the game over and over, very rarely was there actually someone new to the game.
UWE needs to try to cater to rookies joining the game rather than adding even more tasks for them to try and keep track of, which has already been a large complaint of why many don't keep playing NS2.