flash sear grenades, do 10 damage to everything in LOS, one use 5 pres. damage will reveal any cloaked units through damage, and bring any marines down to 2 bites sans armor.marine scan if you will, but not persistent.
Not sure if this has been suggested but how about leaving camo like it is but give Marines the ability to buy personal motion trackers from the armory for ~5 res.
That way they and units near by them can see the red dots on their mini maps.
I'm against anything that marines have to buy to counter what aliens get for free. Asymetric or not, cost is universal. There either needs to be a marine upgrade (motion tracking) or cloak should have a sound that gets louder/changes the closer the marine is to the cloaked unit.
I'm against marines being able to recycle a dead comrades weapon....aliens have to spend res when marines get something for FREE.
Sorry but there has to be a cost to off-set...lets not forget marines get their armour and weapon upgrades for free.
In my opinion, a big issue with the current implementation of scan is that it is highly effective for a small cost. This means that it is inconsequential for both teams. Marine commanders don't care about wasting 3 res and throwing down a needless scan, and aliens don't attempt to do anything that a scan could reveal, because they go off all the time all over the place. I feel the reason for this is how small each individual scan is. 3 resources for a scan which lasts something like 7 seconds, and can be dropped again anywhere you like instantly.
I think this is also a reason why "bad commanders" don't do it as often, as it requires constant attention and redropping over and over again until your marines are our of danger. Similarly during ARC attacks, the majority of the commanders time is spent dropping scan after scan.
I suggest the following changes to scan to make it less ubiquitous the second shade goes up, but less "temporary" in key areas that the marines want to attack:
1. Increase scan's duration to 20-25 seconds
2. Increase the cost of a scan to 10 team resources
3. Allow only one active scan per Observatory at any one time
4. Remove permanent vision from scan, and instead have a one second reveal every 5 seconds while a scan is active in an area (motion tracking circle and mini-map reveal during this one second)
I also don't think that a scan should reveal camouflaged aliens. It should only highlight their location using the tracking circle.
@|strofix| now you have to choose between a scan and an extractor. The obs is a hard counter to camo... it helps defend areas passively. Without it camo would be even more OP.
Observatory provides Motion Tracking in it's radius and provides an upgrade for marines to purchase at the Arms lab. This upgrade would be a hand held device that, while equipped, passively decloaks aliens in a radius around the user (you don't have to "use" it or fire it). This personal scanner is a handheld device that restricts the user to one handed weapons (Pistol, Axe, Welder) while it is active. Taking out your Primary weapon will put away the tracker. As with other items, it can be dropped and picked up by other marines. Uses the Mines slot in the player's inventory.
Perhaps also change the commander scans to be Motion Tracking sweeps. Maybe with a smaller radius but longer duration.
It allows the marines control over when and where to scan, promotes teamwork and squad tactics, provides a functionality for "lesser skilled" players to perform a useful function for their team, balances risk and reward by giving greater intel to the marines while reducing the firepower of the user.
In my opinion, a big issue with the current implementation of scan is that it is highly effective for a small cost. This means that it is inconsequential for both teams. Marine commanders don't care about wasting 3 res and throwing down a needless scan, and aliens don't attempt to do anything that a scan could reveal, because they go off all the time all over the place. I feel the reason for this is how small each individual scan is. 3 resources for a scan which lasts something like 7 seconds, and can be dropped again anywhere you like instantly.
I think this is also a reason why "bad commanders" don't do it as often, as it requires constant attention and redropping over and over again until your marines are our of danger. Similarly during ARC attacks, the majority of the commanders time is spent dropping scan after scan.
I suggest the following changes to scan to make it less ubiquitous the second shade goes up, but less "temporary" in key areas that the marines want to attack:
1. Increase scan's duration to 20-25 seconds
2. Increase the cost of a scan to 10 team resources
3. Allow only one active scan per Observatory at any one time
4. Remove permanent vision from scan, and instead have a one second reveal every 5 seconds while a scan is active in an area (motion tracking circle and mini-map reveal during this one second)
I also don't think that a scan should reveal camouflaged aliens. It should only highlight their location using the tracking circle.
then you could remove the ability to scan completly!
10 res for 1 single scan (for only 2 sec)... lol
The advantages of the flashlight idea, would be the mechanic of "searching the enemy". You need to aim at the direction of the cloaked alien to uncloak it. This introduces a skill-dependent meta game. It isn't a hard counter like a motion tracker or scan-grenade where you simply uncloak everything in your vicinity or general direction.
It also increases the teamplay aspect, because you can uncloak aliens for all team members around you (the one with the shotgun can't have this flash light attachment) while goggles would only give you this sight yourself.
flash sear grenades, do 10 damage to everything in LOS, one use 5 pres. damage will reveal any cloaked units through damage, and bring any marines down to 2 bites sans armor.marine scan if you will, but not persistent.
Not sure if this has been suggested but how about leaving camo like it is but give Marines the ability to buy personal motion trackers from the armory for ~5 res.
That way they and units near by them can see the red dots on their mini maps.
I'm against anything that marines have to buy to counter what aliens get for free. Asymetric or not, cost is universal. There either needs to be a marine upgrade (motion tracking) or cloak should have a sound that gets louder/changes the closer the marine is to the cloaked unit.
So what's the difference between the comm spending 3 res every scan or marines paying 5 res for a semi-permanent scanner that lasts until they die?
In my opinion, a big issue with the current implementation of scan is that it is highly effective for a small cost. This means that it is inconsequential for both teams. Marine commanders don't care about wasting 3 res and throwing down a needless scan, and aliens don't attempt to do anything that a scan could reveal, because they go off all the time all over the place. I feel the reason for this is how small each individual scan is. 3 resources for a scan which lasts something like 7 seconds, and can be dropped again anywhere you like instantly.
I think this is also a reason why "bad commanders" don't do it as often, as it requires constant attention and redropping over and over again until your marines are our of danger. Similarly during ARC attacks, the majority of the commanders time is spent dropping scan after scan.
I suggest the following changes to scan to make it less ubiquitous the second shade goes up, but less "temporary" in key areas that the marines want to attack:
1. Increase scan's duration to 20-25 seconds
2. Increase the cost of a scan to 10 team resources
3. Allow only one active scan per Observatory at any one time
4. Remove permanent vision from scan, and instead have a one second reveal every 5 seconds while a scan is active in an area (motion tracking circle and mini-map reveal during this one second)
I also don't think that a scan should reveal camouflaged aliens. It should only highlight their location using the tracking circle.
then you could remove the ability to scan completly!
10 res for 1 single scan (for only 2 sec)... lol
any other great balance ideas ? :P
That isn't what I suggested at all. I'm not quite sure what you are talking about. Maybe you quoted the wrong post?
@|strofix| now you have to choose between a scan and an extractor. The obs is a hard counter to camo... it helps defend areas passively. Without it camo would be even more OP.
And this way, you drop a scan and for half a minute the area is secure. Currently you throw down scans all over the place. If you throw down 3 scans you've already spent the same amount. And what's worse, its a hard counter. You got camo? Lol I dropped a scan, your camo is now over, and I can drop them anywhere anytime as often as I want. I don't see that as strategically rich gameplay.
I don't really see how it can be seen as a nerf. The scan lasts 3 times longer and is 3 times the price, but doesn't require the commander to repeatedly drop it over and over again.
Also, saying that camo "is op" shows you are only considering half of the issue here.
The advantages of the flashlight idea, would be the mechanic of "searching the enemy". You need to aim at the direction of the cloaked alien to uncloak it. This introduces a skill-dependent meta game. It isn't a hard counter like a motion tracker or scan-grenade where you simply uncloak everything in your vicinity or general direction.
The entire point of NS2 is that Marines are utterly reliant on their commander.
Why is this a problem with cloaking for many players?
Because they have a crappy commander; conversely it's hard to become a good commander because you need to already be good to give Marines a chance at victory. Saying this is only a 'problem' with cloaking is complete malarky, it's just more pronounced when aliens go cloaking. It's what reveals your commander as a true dunce in an obvious way, since you might not notice all the other bone headed mistakes they're making but you will notice invisible skulks munching on you in your main spawn.
You can argue that camouflage isn't fun, I can get behind that concept. However, that being said, allowing the individual players to 'counter' camouflage isn't going to somehow up the 'fun' factor. In fact, it's just going to once again render camouflage moot. The downsides for the aliens going shade first or second are tremendous, adding in an easy-to-use counter for the ground troops is just going to put the last nail in shades coffin.
You go shade first precisely to take advantage of an inexperienced commander. It's a blitzkrieg tactic in slow motion. If you make the 'motion tracker' that's a blatant ripoff of Aliens a researched armory upgrade it's still going to require commander input but you need to consider the other uses of such a device.
Namely, it's perma-wall hacks for the Marines team. Obviously, such a change would require retooling the whole game or a substantial part of it. Somehow, I'm not holding my breath.
UWE will add a blur effect of some sort and call it a day. It's the easy, quick fix to something that isn't a problem. I'm ok with that, because cloaking is such a deeply flawed mechanic that it's impossible to f#&k it up worse than it already is; and anything that results in camo being used less is a good thing since it promotes people playing well instead of being fooled by something that sounds good that is actually quite bad.
It doesn't matter what UWE change with cloaking, it's always going to be blatantly OP or blatantly useless. I would much prefer seeing an entire revamp of the shade hive, because as-is Shade is a POS outside of the Silence upgrade and even that is questionable.
Hell, making cloaking a temporary usable ability that makes a noise when activated would be preferable to what we have now. Especially if it ate up energy while active. Making the aliens player think is a good thing, and too many of the aliens abilities are just default, always on general buffs. I know there are already 'ability' upgrades, but is it such anathema for a chamber upgrade to also require some player input to use correctly?
Oh well, our opinion doesn't matter. They already know what they're doing, it's just a game of 'who guessed right' at this point.
The advantages of the flashlight idea, would be the mechanic of "searching the enemy". You need to aim at the direction of the cloaked alien to uncloak it. This introduces a skill-dependent meta game. It isn't a hard counter like a motion tracker or scan-grenade where you simply uncloak everything in your vicinity or general direction.
What's the skill?
For the marine: Aiming with the flashlight at possible hiding places and searching the surroundings to possibly uncloak aliens.
For the aliens: Engaging from "not obvious" directions even when cloaked, so you aren't uncloaked by this item.
The entire point of NS2 is that Marines are utterly reliant on their commander.
Why is this a problem with cloaking for many players?
Don't be this black and white. Sure. Marines are dependent on their com. But if you increase this dependency to an absolute inability to fight your enemy, it simply stops to be fun. Camo does that. Without your com you have nearly no chance in killing an engaging alien. There needs at least to be something that allows the marine to fight.
In fact, it's just going to once again render camouflage moot. The downsides for the aliens going shade first or second are tremendous, adding in an easy-to-use counter for the ground troops is just going to put the last nail in shades coffin.
Thats why it needs to be buffed at the same time, when you introduce such a change.
For the marine: Aiming with the flashlight at possible hiding places and searching the surroundings to possibly uncloak aliens.
For the aliens: Engaging from "not obvious" directions even when cloaked, so you aren't uncloaked by this item.
Shining your flashlight around doesn't require skill. Not even by the broadest definition of the term.
Knowing where to shine your flashlight may require some form of knowledge or experience, but here's the problem I have with that:
Say you walk into a room with an overhang above the entrance. As a marine you think its obvious any cloaked alien would want to be there right? Well as an alien you would think the same thing, and go along the floor instead! In plain sight! Genius! But what if the marine is stupid, and is just walking around with his flashlight on looking around normally and sees you. Well, what if the alien is smart, and double bluffs, and goes onto the roof where its obvious the alien would be, so the marine will never look there because he knows the alien knows that its obvious and so would never go there. But of course the marine knows that the team has good players who would know that he knows this and triple bluff and go along the floor! But what if the aliens are really smart...
In the end, it essentially becomes a game of rock paper scissors. Sure, statistically there are common openers, but so many bluffs occur that its completely random. So I can't see how this mechanic could ever be seen as "skill based". Imersive definitely, and potentially physically accurate. So sell it on those merits rather.
It doesn't matter if you would call it skill based or not. That's simply not the main point of it. In any case it is more of a task to search the surrounding with it than having a motion tracker that simply uncloaks anything around you. No matter if there is a ledge for the alien to hide or not. You can even adjust the difficulty by how narrow the light cone is.
it is going to get a whole lot more responsive, good looking, fun and skill-based!
Just guessing here, but more responsive means more dynamic?
I personally would like a more fluid and dynamic transformation, but with an on/off switch (ability, instead of permanent upgrade)...pretty much like a chameleon has ( > it can go into it's normal auto-camo state,or deliberately choose to put up an offensive or warning pattern).
Dynamic in such way that it takes much longer to blend-in - 4/5secs maybe? - but also much longer to become completely visible again.
And the faster the Alien accelerates, the quicker the cloaking disappears.
But being an on/off ability - it needs to come at a price....so it costs a little energy to cloak and un-cloak.
Just dreaming here...haven't yet given this any thought about balance, and practical concequences :P
Sry for having to quote myself, but when I 1st saw the new cloak effect, I was like hey that's pretty close to how I would like it.
I think it's awesome, allthough it feels a bit unpolished....at least, when playing as Skulk - which in itself needs allot to get used to.
Comments
I'm against marines being able to recycle a dead comrades weapon....aliens have to spend res when marines get something for FREE.
Sorry but there has to be a cost to off-set...lets not forget marines get their armour and weapon upgrades for free.
I think this is also a reason why "bad commanders" don't do it as often, as it requires constant attention and redropping over and over again until your marines are our of danger. Similarly during ARC attacks, the majority of the commanders time is spent dropping scan after scan.
I suggest the following changes to scan to make it less ubiquitous the second shade goes up, but less "temporary" in key areas that the marines want to attack:
1. Increase scan's duration to 20-25 seconds
2. Increase the cost of a scan to 10 team resources
3. Allow only one active scan per Observatory at any one time
4. Remove permanent vision from scan, and instead have a one second reveal every 5 seconds while a scan is active in an area (motion tracking circle and mini-map reveal during this one second)
I also don't think that a scan should reveal camouflaged aliens. It should only highlight their location using the tracking circle.
Observatory provides Motion Tracking in it's radius and provides an upgrade for marines to purchase at the Arms lab. This upgrade would be a hand held device that, while equipped, passively decloaks aliens in a radius around the user (you don't have to "use" it or fire it). This personal scanner is a handheld device that restricts the user to one handed weapons (Pistol, Axe, Welder) while it is active. Taking out your Primary weapon will put away the tracker. As with other items, it can be dropped and picked up by other marines. Uses the Mines slot in the player's inventory.
Perhaps also change the commander scans to be Motion Tracking sweeps. Maybe with a smaller radius but longer duration.
It allows the marines control over when and where to scan, promotes teamwork and squad tactics, provides a functionality for "lesser skilled" players to perform a useful function for their team, balances risk and reward by giving greater intel to the marines while reducing the firepower of the user.
then you could remove the ability to scan completly!
10 res for 1 single scan (for only 2 sec)... lol
any other great balance ideas ? :P
It also increases the teamplay aspect, because you can uncloak aliens for all team members around you (the one with the shotgun can't have this flash light attachment) while goggles would only give you this sight yourself.
(trolol)
So what's the difference between the comm spending 3 res every scan or marines paying 5 res for a semi-permanent scanner that lasts until they die?
That isn't what I suggested at all. I'm not quite sure what you are talking about. Maybe you quoted the wrong post?
And this way, you drop a scan and for half a minute the area is secure. Currently you throw down scans all over the place. If you throw down 3 scans you've already spent the same amount. And what's worse, its a hard counter. You got camo? Lol I dropped a scan, your camo is now over, and I can drop them anywhere anytime as often as I want. I don't see that as strategically rich gameplay.
I don't really see how it can be seen as a nerf. The scan lasts 3 times longer and is 3 times the price, but doesn't require the commander to repeatedly drop it over and over again.
Also, saying that camo "is op" shows you are only considering half of the issue here.
What's the skill?
Why is this a problem with cloaking for many players?
Because they have a crappy commander; conversely it's hard to become a good commander because you need to already be good to give Marines a chance at victory. Saying this is only a 'problem' with cloaking is complete malarky, it's just more pronounced when aliens go cloaking. It's what reveals your commander as a true dunce in an obvious way, since you might not notice all the other bone headed mistakes they're making but you will notice invisible skulks munching on you in your main spawn.
You can argue that camouflage isn't fun, I can get behind that concept. However, that being said, allowing the individual players to 'counter' camouflage isn't going to somehow up the 'fun' factor. In fact, it's just going to once again render camouflage moot. The downsides for the aliens going shade first or second are tremendous, adding in an easy-to-use counter for the ground troops is just going to put the last nail in shades coffin.
You go shade first precisely to take advantage of an inexperienced commander. It's a blitzkrieg tactic in slow motion. If you make the 'motion tracker' that's a blatant ripoff of Aliens a researched armory upgrade it's still going to require commander input but you need to consider the other uses of such a device.
Namely, it's perma-wall hacks for the Marines team. Obviously, such a change would require retooling the whole game or a substantial part of it. Somehow, I'm not holding my breath.
UWE will add a blur effect of some sort and call it a day. It's the easy, quick fix to something that isn't a problem. I'm ok with that, because cloaking is such a deeply flawed mechanic that it's impossible to f#&k it up worse than it already is; and anything that results in camo being used less is a good thing since it promotes people playing well instead of being fooled by something that sounds good that is actually quite bad.
It doesn't matter what UWE change with cloaking, it's always going to be blatantly OP or blatantly useless. I would much prefer seeing an entire revamp of the shade hive, because as-is Shade is a POS outside of the Silence upgrade and even that is questionable.
Hell, making cloaking a temporary usable ability that makes a noise when activated would be preferable to what we have now. Especially if it ate up energy while active. Making the aliens player think is a good thing, and too many of the aliens abilities are just default, always on general buffs. I know there are already 'ability' upgrades, but is it such anathema for a chamber upgrade to also require some player input to use correctly?
Oh well, our opinion doesn't matter. They already know what they're doing, it's just a game of 'who guessed right' at this point.
For the aliens: Engaging from "not obvious" directions even when cloaked, so you aren't uncloaked by this item.
Don't be this black and white. Sure. Marines are dependent on their com. But if you increase this dependency to an absolute inability to fight your enemy, it simply stops to be fun. Camo does that. Without your com you have nearly no chance in killing an engaging alien. There needs at least to be something that allows the marine to fight. Thats why it needs to be buffed at the same time, when you introduce such a change.
Shining your flashlight around doesn't require skill. Not even by the broadest definition of the term.
Knowing where to shine your flashlight may require some form of knowledge or experience, but here's the problem I have with that:
Say you walk into a room with an overhang above the entrance. As a marine you think its obvious any cloaked alien would want to be there right? Well as an alien you would think the same thing, and go along the floor instead! In plain sight! Genius! But what if the marine is stupid, and is just walking around with his flashlight on looking around normally and sees you. Well, what if the alien is smart, and double bluffs, and goes onto the roof where its obvious the alien would be, so the marine will never look there because he knows the alien knows that its obvious and so would never go there. But of course the marine knows that the team has good players who would know that he knows this and triple bluff and go along the floor!
But what if the aliens are really smart...
In the end, it essentially becomes a game of rock paper scissors. Sure, statistically there are common openers, but so many bluffs occur that its completely random. So I can't see how this mechanic could ever be seen as "skill based". Imersive definitely, and potentially physically accurate. So sell it on those merits rather.
I think it's awesome, allthough it feels a bit unpolished....at least, when playing as Skulk - which in itself needs allot to get used to.