KanehJoin Date: 2012-12-11Member: 174783Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
in essence the argument for a 2nd ruleset comes down to "helping new players". A second ruleset does not help new players because it doesn't nor reduce the complexity of the game. A better tutorial would help new players much more because a streamlined tutorial will effectively reduce the complexity and learning curve of the game.
If retaining new players is the goal, then a different ruleset doesn't help anything. Take a look at all the basic suggestions, none of them make the game any less complex and subsequently easier to learn. If anything, a different ruleset just has different "correct" actions, which means to learn the 2nd ruleset, you have to forget and relearn, making more rules and adding complexity without adding depth even higher.
If there are any "newbie" rules you can think of that would reduce the learning curve while not chopping off entire sections of the game (like combat does) then why would these changes not just be good to implement into the current ruleset? can you come up with any rules that would help new players without castrating the game?
KanehJoin Date: 2012-12-11Member: 174783Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
I just want to go over these suggestions and tell you why the reasoning behind them is flawed, almost none of the suggestions would make the game easier to learn. the majority of them as essentially you wanting the game to work the way YOU want it.
Cysts cost 2 res- Marines are rewarded for following their instincts. Destroying anything bad is always good.
killing cysts already hurts the other side. Part of the depth of the game is knowing how to do the most damage to the other side given time/ammo. All this does is shift the "correct" actions around a bit, not make it less complex.
Power Nodes cost 5 res to put up again, and cause actual darkness instead of red emergency lights.
uhh, why? no reason was given. power still hurts the marines, part of the depth of the game. Even competitive players will kill power if its say, near a location that marines are trying to push into for a PG. same as above, shifts "correct" actions around but doesn't make it less complex.
Infestation is slightly harder to walk through, with an audible cue that you're stepping in some gross stuff- Intuitively, a marine is never going into alien territory alone if you make it really scary. Reward players for following their intuition, and build the game around that intuition.
adding cues for marines to stick together doesn't require 2 different rulesets. Actually a pretty good suggestion, maybe not in this form, but some kind of passive encouragement doesn't seem to me to have any drawbacks.
Gorges can create 9 hydras, as well as one crag/shift/shade structure if the appropriate hive is already in play.- As evident in tower defense games, players have been asking for a return to the old gorge. The reason is simple... building stuff is fun.
this is pure personal opinion and does not make the game easier to learn.
Major sentry buff- Flayra says that he doesn't want the game to turn into a Player versus Environment game. That's fine in competitive play, but a lot of players absolutely love either putting them up, or taking them down.
same as above, this is pure personal opinion and does not make the game easier to learn.
Medic role for Marines. Allow them to heal each other. Some players love being support and always choose the medic class. So give them a medic gun that replaces your pistol.
again, this is pure personal opinion and does not make the game easier to learn. in fact it makes it harder to learn as there is not an additional role.
HMGs are in. They cost 20 res, act as Level 4 LMGs with a 150 round clip and a lower ROF- Because screw logic, we want big guns.
again, this is pure personal opinion and does not make the game easier to learn.
Blink repels you off of walls, making it easier to blink in and out of the room.- Lower the skill barrier for fades and lerks to be consistent with skill level for other races.
I do not understand this change. blink as it stands is pretty intuitive. if people are getting stuck on map geometry that's not a complexity problem. the reasoning behind this seems to be... give newbies buffs so they don't feel so bad. like give newbies 50% more damage or something. which strikes me as bad.
The stomp animation no longer stops an Onos, so Onii can kill instead of being team players.- Role confusion. Onii want to kill, not support.
uhhh, this is pure personal opinion and does not make the game easier to learn.
Any team or player who would want to get into comp play would have to effectively relearn parts of the game.
Maybe people are taking this whole ruleset thing out of context. No one is talking about making a whole new game here. Changes would be subtle, shades of grey if you will. The 'advanced' ruleset would be harder. Think of it like difficulty levels in any game. Do you have to 'relearn' a game to go from playing on normal to hard?
However, as someone who has played competitively, I wouldn't consider this a barrier. If anything I would want to be playing on those servers (casually) since they would offer a greater challenge.
Let's be honest here. The vast percentage of the player base will never play competitively, nor do they want to play competitively. That is not a knock against competitive gaming at all, it's just 'not their thing'.
Keep in mind I don't see this as a mode *solely* for competitive players. That's why I have called it 'advanced'. Or call it 'expert', or 'hard' mode. It's a difficulty level above the 'casual' level. Frankly, I bet a large chunk of the *casual* player base would play in that mode on a regular basis - I know I'd enjoy the challenge. Don't think of it like a mode that would only be active during competitive play, think of it like a server that has a 'hard mode'.
We had this in NS1 with many of Voogru's mods, which altered gameplay in ways that affected balance. One example was the armoury, which in his mod dispensed health. (it didn't back then) This altered gameplay since the comm no longer had to drop health packs for marines on a regular basis. This made it harder for aliens. But players adapted, and the mod became popular. So much so that it was made part of the base code.
No one is talking about adding scorpions that hovar without flapping here. While the OP's suggestions are a bit extreme, a more nuanced set of changes could be made. In ideal circumstances an 'advanced ruleset' shouldn't be markedly different than the 'normal ruleset'. It should just be harder. Perhaps people die easier, perhaps weapons are deadlier. Maybe it takes 3 more bullets to kill a non-carapace skulk, but it takes 3 bites to kill an armor 0 marine. These aren't things that a person will have to 'relearn the game' for. It will mean that people with poor aim will be dying more often. Perhaps weapons 'decay' and vanish a few seconds faster. This will reward teamwork since people who die solo won't be able to recover weapons. Just little things. On their own not significant, but in a package they will impact gameplay on subtle levels.
We had this in NS1 with many of Voogru's mods, which altered gameplay in ways that affected balance. One example was the armoury, which in his mod dispensed health. (it didn't back then) This altered gameplay since the comm no longer had to drop health packs for marines on a regular basis. This made it harder for aliens. But players adapted, and the mod became popular. So much so that it was made part of the base code.
No one is talking about adding scorpions that hovar without flapping here. While the OP's suggestions are a bit extreme, a more nuanced set of changes could be made. In ideal circumstances an 'advanced ruleset' shouldn't be markedly different than the 'normal ruleset'. It should just be harder. Perhaps people die easier, perhaps weapons are deadlier. Maybe it takes 3 more bullets to kill a non-carapace skulk, but it takes 3 bites to kill an armor 0 marine. These aren't things that a person will have to 'relearn the game' for. It will mean that people with poor aim will be dying more often. Perhaps weapons 'decay' and vanish a few seconds faster. This will reward teamwork since people who die solo won't be able to recover weapons. Just little things. On their own not significant, but in a package they will impact gameplay on subtle levels.
The simplest solution has already been posted. Request/commission/create a mod for this specific mode. Similar to weapon (mainly AWP) limits in CS:S. It changes the gameplay, but not enough to destroy competitive play. Usually, balance modification like this are done through mods. If a mod is proven good for overall gameplay, UWE can decide to add it for everyone.
UWE would be better off working on bugs, content updates, and one rule set, instead of balancing two separate rules set.
Any team or player who would want to get into comp play would have to effectively relearn parts of the game.
Maybe people are taking this whole ruleset thing out of context. No one is talking about making a whole new game here. Changes would be subtle, shades of grey if you will. The 'advanced' ruleset would be harder. Think of it like difficulty levels in any game. Do you have to 'relearn' a game to go from playing on normal to hard?
However, as someone who has played competitively, I wouldn't consider this a barrier. If anything I would want to be playing on those servers (casually) since they would offer a greater challenge.
Let's be honest here. The vast percentage of the player base will never play competitively, nor do they want to play competitively. That is not a knock against competitive gaming at all, it's just 'not their thing'.
Keep in mind I don't see this as a mode *solely* for competitive players. That's why I have called it 'advanced'. Or call it 'expert', or 'hard' mode. It's a difficulty level above the 'casual' level. Frankly, I bet a large chunk of the *casual* player base would play in that mode on a regular basis - I know I'd enjoy the challenge. Don't think of it like a mode that would only be active during competitive play, think of it like a server that has a 'hard mode'.
We had this in NS1 with many of Voogru's mods, which altered gameplay in ways that affected balance. One example was the armoury, which in his mod dispensed health. (it didn't back then) This altered gameplay since the comm no longer had to drop health packs for marines on a regular basis. This made it harder for aliens. But players adapted, and the mod became popular. So much so that it was made part of the base code.
No one is talking about adding scorpions that hovar without flapping here. While the OP's suggestions are a bit extreme, a more nuanced set of changes could be made. In ideal circumstances an 'advanced ruleset' shouldn't be markedly different than the 'normal ruleset'. It should just be harder. Perhaps people die easier, perhaps weapons are deadlier. Maybe it takes 3 more bullets to kill a non-carapace skulk, but it takes 3 bites to kill an armor 0 marine. These aren't things that a person will have to 'relearn the game' for. It will mean that people with poor aim will be dying more often. Perhaps weapons 'decay' and vanish a few seconds faster. This will reward teamwork since people who die solo won't be able to recover weapons. Just little things. On their own not significant, but in a package they will impact gameplay on subtle levels.
I guess I don't see the value in minor adjustments as the core idea of having separate competitive and public versions is that they are fundamentally different and incompatible. If the change is worthwhile for comp play, its likely worthwhile for pub play.
Also, making a game harder does change how it plays. Going from regular to realism L4D1/2 requires relearning key aspects, such as how to keep track of you teammates, finding ammo/weapons/items, etc. Going from classic to impossible difficulty in XCOM:EU requires relearning certain strategies and tactics that no longer work (its surprising how sectoid's having four bars of health instead of three forces you to change how you play the game).
I just don't think the value in separating out comp and pub version of the game outweighs the cost.
The simplest solution has already been posted. Request/commission/create a mod for this specific mode.
There are many reasons why that wouldn't be feasible, the least of which is that there is still much in the game that is out of the reach of modders. (EG. Did you know bile bomb stacks? How many stacks? No one knows.) Furthermore, when you have UWE tweaking balance, you end up with a broken mod that has to be rebalanced with each patch. If UWE was to undertake it, it would be far easier since they have the access, and if they were to tweak a particular variable, they would know how that would affect each mode.
I guess I don't see the value in minor adjustments as the core idea of having separate competitive and public versions is that they are fundamentally different and incompatible. If the change is worthwhile for comp play, its likely worthwhile for pub play.
Again I'll mention that despite the thread title, I am advocating for an 'advanced mode', which is not at all restricted to any particular group of players. Furthermore, it would not be fundamentally different. Flying Onos would be fundamentally different. Adding a few more points of damage to a weapon would not be.
Also, making a game harder does change how it plays. Going from regular to realism L4D1/2 requires relearning key aspects, such as how to keep track of you teammates, finding ammo/weapons/items, etc.
Just because it may play slightly differently, doesn't mean that a competitive game doesn't ALREADY play differently than a pub game. Do you honestly think that comp teams are playing the same way pub players are? Really? If I was to take a random pub player and toss them into a comp game, what do you think would happen? Would it be 'business as usual', or would that player feel like they were totally out of their element and playing a completely different game?
A competitive player may just as well have a weapon that does more damage simply by nature of their better aim. Does that not change how the game plays for them?
I guarantee that most casual players would find themselves in a 'different ruleset' if they were dumped into a competitive game, just by the nature of how competitive gamers play. So the "change how the game plays" argument fails on that point. The game is ALREADY changed in competitive games, simply by the nature of how they play. A casual player would indeed have to relearn many gameplay aspects.
Are people really trying to suggest that casual play and competitive play are the same thing? Really?
Now this probably wouldn't work: A census on NS2 players?
Are we averaging 20 years old?
I'm detecting alot of 25+ gamers out there, are we the 'old school' ? are the new players (especially those that didn't play NS1) equal in average age to existing NS2 (NS1) players?
Do we have higher than average (Steam spec polls?) system specs? Lower?
Are our 14 year old newbie gamers going to be 'old school' one day? I'd pay a few extra listens to those players.
Just want to point out that realism mode is NOT competitive version of L4D. Realism mode is super public mode if something. Whole point of competitive settings is to make game more players vs. players and remove random factors out of game. Actually, Valve have never supported L4D's competitive scene, we had to make our own "pro mod".
I'd love for Savant to name any games in the 10+ years of competitive FPS a game that benefited from 2 rule sets, that isn't just different game modes like UT/CTF.
This game suffers heavily from 0 tutorial but honestly it boggles the mind how much more team work was required to play NS 1 back in the day. I just can't see people giving up 40 PRes to drop a hive, 30 PRes to drop 3 chambers or gorges at the start spending all their PRes dropping an RT OC quickly. NS2 has been simplified and stream lined to a point it's nearly obscene, the amount of people asking for shit like HMG to come back just proves how many baddies were around in NS1 that just never 'got it' and want all their NS 1 cruxes back like HMG, HA that can phase/beacon, 10+ turrets, electro res.
I know for a fact the skewed win % on aliens is partial some things are unbalanced (gorges+bile being crazy effective) but 90% every marine sucks arse and has no idea what they're doing at any time, I comm way too many pub games with no mic that basically reinforces everyone expects to be micro'd every second they play in NS2 so they don't have to do any thinking themselves and can blame the comm for all their woes.
If anything the streamlining and simplifying of the game has hurt peoples ability to 'master' this game, in NS1 people knew if they didn't hold areas, report marine movement and scout with para/feed info back to the team it meant the guy gorging and dropping RTs could get fucked in egg form which could be a huge hit in the first 3 mins (less overall Pres meant slower hive, slower upgrades, that guy now can't drop RT or OC so someone else has to temp res), now there's only one person responsible for dropping RTs and even tho everyone is responsible for keeping them safe 9/10 aliens expect to be told everything and when and how to do it anyway.
Exactly Xao, and suddenly the marines have to harrass the aliens (aka rambo rts) instead of makeing a coordinated assault and sticking together. The aliens have ai controlled invisible scouts all around the map - map awareness for free!
I found the greatest joy in NS1 by going skulk early, getting some kills to drop an early 2nd hive. You got the feeling of accomplishing something for the team. Now, everyone just plays for himself - at least on pubs.
If you can't retain players, then the GAME has problems - no matter who you are.
NO, it does not mean the game has problems! There is nothing wrong with making a game for a niche audience. Not every game needs to cater to the mainstream. You can still make a successful business in a niche of the market. The Natural Selection franchise has a dedicated following of players who absolutely love the game. In other words, it is exceptionally good at retaining the type of player for which it was designed.
While explore mode is definitely better than nothing, this is the one huge Achilles heel in NS2. I know their resources were limited, but that doesn't diminish the fact that people are having a heck of a time learning the more subtle aspects of the game.
This should be solved by improving the tutorial facilities of the game; not by creating a second rule set. If you've got two different rule sets, each with their own subtle differences, the tutorials are going to become even more useless. Then we'll need a tutorial just to explain all the differences between the two modes.
Keep in mind I don't see this as a mode *solely* for competitive players. That's why I have called it 'advanced'. Or call it 'expert', or 'hard' mode. It's a difficulty level above the 'casual' level. Frankly, I bet a large chunk of the *casual* player base would play in that mode on a regular basis - I know I'd enjoy the challenge. Don't think of it like a mode that would only be active during competitive play, think of it like a server that has a 'hard mode'.
That is precisely what I am steadfastly opposed to. Different pub servers running subtly different rule sets - extremely annoying. A consistent experience from one play session to the next is important. You're idealised concept of players starting off on Normal mode servers and "graduating" to Advanced mode servers is unrealistic in practice. In many cases, players won't be able to find a decently populated server running the Normal rule set (especially in smaller territories). As such, they'll be forced to join an Advanced server and wind up getting confused as to why things that worked for them yesterday are not working for them today.
It does mean it has problems. I would not have NS2 still installed if not for the nostalgia i have from playing years of NS1 in my youth. The game is doing everything to annoy new players. It looks great but the gameplay in pubs is a mess. Hell i bought a new pc to play NS2 and now I spend more time on the forums than playing the game. I advertised this game to my friends and I feel kinda dissapointed - they stopped playing long ago.
I'd love for Savant to name any games in the 10+ years of competitive FPS a game that benefited from 2 rule sets, that isn't just different game modes like UT/CTF.
Who says it has to benefit the competitive players? Rulesets in multiplayer games tend to benefit the public, especially in games where there is a higher than average spread between the skill of players at the top and bottom. An advanced ruleset isn't designed to change how competitive players play, it's designed to catch and keep casual players playing.
The best games are easy to learn and hard to master. No one here has the audacity to suggest that NS2 is easy to learn, not even the developers, and they wrote the game.
This game suffers heavily from 0 tutorial but honestly it boggles the mind how much more team work was required to play NS 1 back in the day. I just can't see people giving up 40 PRes to drop a hive, 30 PRes to drop 3 chambers or gorges at the start spending all their PRes dropping an RT OC quickly.
Actually, there was much more teamwork needed to play aliens then. Back in NS1 the game was pretty much flipped on its head. Instead of aliens being able to have their 'hive mind' and loose coordination, they needed extensive levels of teamwork, much greater than the marines. It was completely the opposite of how it should have been, and in NS2 Charlie has rectified this. Aliens now don't have the teamwork demands they used to, that now falls to marines.
NS2 has been simplified and stream lined to a point it's nearly obscene
Sorry, but I disagree. The game is no easier to learn now than it was in NS1. Have you talked to new players? At all? After the Christmas sale I was working with groups of them and most had a hell of a time trying to learn the game. Sure it's easy as marine to point and shoot, but that's such a small part of the game that it's laughable. When NS2 has a full training system that can pump out a player who knows 95% of what is in the game, then come tell me the game has been simplified. I lost count of how many alien players I had to tell that they could walk on walls, since as skulks many were running only on the floors. Fades? Hardly saw any since they couldn't figure out the mechanic and died fast. Simple? Sorry, I disagree.
If this game is so simple to learn, where are all the people who have bought copies? Why aren't they playing? Why are there less than half as many servers now than at launch? Why are there less than half as many players playing than at launch? NS2 is many things, but not easy or simple. If it was we wouldn't need training, and the game sorely does.
If you can't retain players, then the GAME has problems - no matter who you are.
NO, it does not mean the game has problems! There is nothing wrong with making a game for a niche audience. Not every game needs to cater to the mainstream.
I never said it did. What I said is that you need to RETAIN players. It doesn't matter what market you are catering to, if you can't retain players in that market you will fail. This is business 101 here.
You can still make a successful business in a niche of the market. The Natural Selection franchise has a dedicated following of players who absolutely love the game. In other words, it is exceptionally good at retaining the type of player for which it was designed.
Just like NS1 was?
The problem you fail to consider here, which sets it apart from NS1, is that NS2 is a *business* and UWE has bills to pay. They don't have the money to work on a game that only appeals to 500 fanbois. If they can't sell copies, they will not be able to maintain the game.
I'll be honest here, I'd LOVE to be wrong on this. Seriously. If in a year's time they have been able to take their no trainer single ruleset game and build the player base - not shed more active players - then I'll be quite happy for them. Charlie and the guys have worked really hard on this, and I support them fully. While Charlie and I disagree on this point, I completely respect his decision on this since it's his baby. He has to raise it in the way that he feels is best.
While explore mode is definitely better than nothing, this is the one huge Achilles heel in NS2. I know their resources were limited, but that doesn't diminish the fact that people are having a heck of a time learning the more subtle aspects of the game.
This should be solved by improving the tutorial facilities of the game; not by creating a second rule set. If you've got two different rule sets, each with their own subtle differences, the tutorials are going to become even more useless. Then we'll need a tutorial just to explain all the differences between the two modes.
Are you kidding me? First off, a full training system would take extensive resources. You would be building and programming something totally new. They have only a rudimentary AI system. While I would love to see a training system, I'm not holding my breath since they don't have the resources. It's not like they are selling copies by the millions here.
However, if - as a normal player - you have trouble 'figuring out' an advanced ruleset, then you shouldn't be playing in that ruleset anyway since you likely don't have the skill to do so. Some people have the aptitude to play in such a ruleset, but many will not. They won't have the skills or ability to play at that higher level. Just as if - with a single ruleset - you grabbed any casual player off a pub server and tossed him into a competitive game. Do you honestly think that player will have a clue how to play?
Competitive NS2 ≠ Casual NS2
They are apples and oranges, and nothing will change that. The vast majority of casual players would never survive in competitive games precisely because the difference in gameplay is far beyond any subtle differences that would exist between two rulesets. It's like two different worlds. They will have more to learn transitioning to competitive play than they ever would have with an advanced ruleset.
In many cases, players won't be able to find a decently populated server running the Normal rule set (especially in smaller territories). As such, they'll be forced to join an Advanced server and wind up getting confused as to why things that worked for them yesterday are not working for them today.
What kind of changes do you think would be in an advanced ruleset that would make entire game features inoperable? You're tossing up strawmen here. It's like you think an advanced ruleset would take away the skulk's mouth or something. Hyperbole much?
That is precisely what I am steadfastly opposed to. Different pub servers running subtly different rule sets - extremely annoying. A consistent experience from one play session to the next is important. You're idealised concept of players starting off on Normal mode servers and "graduating" to Advanced mode servers is unrealistic in practice.
Really? So why do we have the 'rookie friendly' tag for servers then? Why? Because the game a new player plays is completely different from the game an 'experienced' player plays. Consistent experience? What about mods? That kinda blows your 'consistent experience' BS right out of the water now doesn't it?
If NS2 was a symmetrical and perfectly balanced game, that was easy to learn, I would agree with you. Seriously.
It's not.
There is no such thing as a consistent experience in NS2. Does not exist. As it stands we don't even have balance in the game and you're blustering about a 'consistent experience'? The next content patch is supposed to introduce a railgun. Consistent experience? There is no such thing in a game like this.
Like I said before, this game will sink or swim based on its ability to retain players. I work in this business, and I know from experience that you can't build a player base if players stop playing. There are bills to be paid, which means you need to keep selling copies to stay in business.
If this was NS1, when it was a free mod, then that's a different story. They had no pressures to sell copies, they could take the game in any direction they wanted without risk.
Come the beginning of December of this year, let's see where we are. We started with just over a thousand servers, most packed. We're down to just under five hundred now. How many do you figure will be around in ten months time?
Just because it may play slightly differently, doesn't mean that a competitive game doesn't ALREADY play differently than a pub game. Do you honestly think that comp teams are playing the same way pub players are? Really? If I was to take a random pub player and toss them into a comp game, what do you think would happen? Would it be 'business as usual', or would that player feel like they were totally out of their element and playing a completely different game?
A competitive player may just as well have a weapon that does more damage simply by nature of their better aim. Does that not change how the game plays for them?
I guarantee that most casual players would find themselves in a 'different ruleset' if they were dumped into a competitive game, just by the nature of how competitive gamers play. So the "change how the game plays" argument fails on that point. The game is ALREADY changed in competitive games, simply by the nature of how they play. A casual player would indeed have to relearn many gameplay aspects.
Are people really trying to suggest that casual play and competitive play are the same thing? Really?
Difference between comp and pub NS2 play is primarily playercount and skill, not ruleset. You typically can't use the same strat that would work in a 12v12 in a 6v6. Also, you can't expect to fade into a group of sg marines in a comp match and expect to survive in the same way as you can most pub matches.
However, I can expect the basic fade mechanics (movement, health, attack) to be the same in both comp and pub play even if I don't play fade the same way in both situations. Changing my fade play based on higher skill of my opponent is commonly expected and the enjoyable part of comp play. Changing my fade play because, for example, the blink mechanic is different in the 'comp ruleset' is just tedious and frustrating.
Difference between comp and pub NS2 play is primarily playercount and skill ... I can expect the basic fade mechanics (movement, health, attack) to be the same in both comp and pub play even if I don't play fade the same way in both situations.
I acknowledge what you are saying, but you're looking at it from a competitive player viewpoint. Look at it from a pub player viewpoint. If you're a pub player, and you somehow find yourself in a competitive game, you'll feel like you're playing a different game. People will be harder to kill and you'll be easier to kill. It will appear almost exactly the same as having changed health or weapon damage. Things you can do in pub games will get you rolled in a comp game. It very much is like a different game.
I acknowledge what you are saying, but you're looking at it from a competitive player viewpoint. Look at it from a pub player viewpoint. If you're a pub player, and you somehow find yourself in a competitive game, you'll feel like you're playing a different game. People will be harder to kill and you'll be easier to kill. It will appear almost exactly the same as having changed health or weapon damage. Things you can do in pub games will get you rolled in a comp game. It very much is like a different game.
Sure, but aren't we arguing the value of a separate comp ruleset? Unless your proposing that the comp ruleset should try to eliminate this difference (e.g. mitigating differences in skill and playercount that distinguish comp from pub play), then any comp ruleset would have this problem and would potentially make it worse (as pub players would have to also learn the new ruleset to get into comp play).
Just give everyone infinite health; it will be a great public game. That way competitive play becomes more of an existential dilemna of why you came to play competitively in the first place if it was your fate to die and whether you had any choice in the matter.
The simplest solution has already been posted. Request/commission/create a mod for this specific mode.
There are many reasons why that wouldn't be feasible, the least of which is that there is still much in the game that is out of the reach of modders. (EG. Did you know bile bomb stacks? How many stacks? No one knows.) Furthermore, when you have UWE tweaking balance, you end up with a broken mod that has to be rebalanced with each patch. If UWE was to undertake it, it would be far easier since they have the access, and if they were to tweak a particular variable, they would know how that would affect each mode.
Modders already have to deal with game updates, in every game that gets regularly updated. The current mods available may need to be tweaked or rebalanced with upcoming additions and updates. Patches breaking mods is not a good excuse, especially with the Creation forum.
While it would seem easier for UWE, that's a drain on resources. No one (player) has a solid model to work from for proposed changes, or how to support them in the future.
If the player, who want these changes, would work on a mod for it, it would make it easier (for UWE) to see how the changes work.
Sure, but aren't we arguing the value of a separate comp ruleset?
I don't like to call it a comp ruleset since it implies it would only be used in competitive games/scrims. I prefer to call it 'advanced', since ideally there would be plenty of these servers around and people on pubs would play on them as well. I'd play on it. I like a challenge, but my competitive days are behind me.
If I could sum up with an axiom what I believe this ruleset can achieve, it's that a good game should be easy to learn and hard to master. Look at any of the top titles in any genre, and you will see this principle front and centre. Someone mentioned WoW as an example of good balance, yet look at how players start out. They start off 'easy' and it gets harder as you go Then when you hit the top you have normal and heroic mode instances. Two levels of challenge. People screamed that would 'kill Wow', but it's still around. Look at TF2, again it's an easy game to learn, but reaching the upper echelons of gameplay takes time. Then you have MvM and various skill levels there as well. L4D has skill levels too.
NS2 is a complex game. A hard to learn, no trainer mode, make one key mistake and your team loses game. There is very little forgiveness in this game, even if we ignore the current balance issues.
My POV is that by creating an advanced ruleset that sufficiently challenges the experienced player base, you can then tweak a normal ruleset in ways that make the game easier to play. This way you don't 'disturb' the core players, yet you can ease in new players without losing them to the learning curve. I am NOT talking an 'easy mode' here - so no one quote me out of context please.
What I am saying is that to maintain a challenge at the high end of gameplay, we have a game that has a notoriously hard learning curve. To put it simply, the normal ruleset would have more 'forgiveness', if you want to call it that.
Anyway, we're only debating principles here, since Charlie has said he doesn't want to take the game that way and I totally respect that.
I'd love for Savant to name any games in the 10+ years of competitive FPS a game that benefited from 2 rule sets, that isn't just different game modes like UT/CTF.
Basically all I can think of in this thread is that OP and his supporters come off sounding like tournyfags. Ironic, because I get the impression that most of the people arguing are actually pub players, not competitive.
That's the mentality I feel like you have to have if you think that the game MUST have separate rules to be "truely competitive".
I don't like to call it a comp ruleset since it implies it would only be used in competitive games/scrims. I prefer to call it 'advanced', since ideally there would be plenty of these servers around and people on pubs would play on them as well. I'd play on it. I like a challenge, but my competitive days are behind me.
If I could sum up with an axiom what I believe this ruleset can achieve, it's that a good game should be easy to learn and hard to master. Look at any of the top titles in any genre, and you will see this principle front and centre. Someone mentioned WoW as an example of good balance, yet look at how players start out. They start off 'easy' and it gets harder as you go Then when you hit the top you have normal and heroic mode instances. Two levels of challenge. People screamed that would 'kill Wow', but it's still around. Look at TF2, again it's an easy game to learn, but reaching the upper echelons of gameplay takes time. Then you have MvM and various skill levels there as well. L4D has skill levels too.
NS2 is a complex game. A hard to learn, no trainer mode, make one key mistake and your team loses game. There is very little forgiveness in this game, even if we ignore the current balance issues.
My POV is that by creating an advanced ruleset that sufficiently challenges the experienced player base, you can then tweak a normal ruleset in ways that make the game easier to play. This way you don't 'disturb' the core players, yet you can ease in new players without losing them to the learning curve. I am NOT talking an 'easy mode' here - so no one quote me out of context please.
What I am saying is that to maintain a challenge at the high end of gameplay, we have a game that has a notoriously hard learning curve. To put it simply, the normal ruleset would have more 'forgiveness', if you want to call it that.
Anyway, we're only debating principles here, since Charlie has said he doesn't want to take the game that way and I totally respect that.
If its not a comp ruleset, then its effectively an alternative game mode (like ns1 combat). I don't have any issue with either except that UWE's time is better spent making NS2 better (e.g. tutorials, matchmaking, balance, bugfixes, performance improvements) than developing alternative game modes.
Also, modders are free to make any advanced ruleset mods they want. However, previous attempts haven't worked so well because many of the experienced players can't agree on what changes should be made.
Basically all I can think of in this thread is that OP and his supporters come off sounding like tournyfags. Ironic, because I get the impression that most of the people arguing are actually pub players, not competitive.
That's the mentality I feel like you have to have if you think that the game MUST have separate rules to be "truely competitive".
I'd love for Savant to name any games in the 10+ years of competitive FPS a game that benefited from 2 rule sets, that isn't just different game modes like UT/CTF.
uhh tf2? are you serious?
Not sure if serious, Team Fortress, Competitive FPS, tell me how many offline lans have been hosted for this competitive FPS m8.
What I am saying is that to maintain a challenge at the high end of gameplay, we have a game that has a notoriously hard learning curve. To put it simply, the normal ruleset would have more 'forgiveness', if you want to call it that.
I agree on that, though, I won't agree on the suggestion for a second rule-set as long as no one could give me any examples what kind of changes and tweaks this easy-mode should contain. The ideas of the OP, of course, have nothing to do with an easy-mode as they're just mere tweaks to the game to move it in a bit different direction but there's nothing in it that makes the game any easier to play. You've give some paraphrized examples that maybe weapons should be more/less deadlier but still, that doesn't make the game any easier - it acutally makes it more difficult for one side.
I think the terminology of easy and hard is a bit out of place in a multiplayer game. You can have several modes in singleplayer games, you can have bots on difficult levels and so on but if you change the balance in a multiplayer game so that is becomes harder for one side it automactially becomes easier for the other one. In other words, you change the balance but you do not necessarily make the overall gaming experience any more easy to grasp. Make the LMG slightly more deadly and you would create an easy-mode for marines and a hard-mode for aliens. In all honesty, I think it makes no sense to debate this topic as long as there are no clear examples given how such changes could look like. From my perspective, we talk about balance changes here and you simply cannot balance a competitive multiplayer game in such a way that the overall (!) experience becomes easier for both sides. That the armoury refills HP and armour, which it didn't do back in NS1, makes the game easier for marines - but well, ask the alien side what they think about it!
I agree on the general notion that this game seriously needs to be easier to learn. At another time I've given already several easy-to-implement ideas how this game could be make more accessibly. Examples:
1) Marines should have some sort of squad system. What pub servers lack is often coordination but that might be because you have no visible feedback with whom you should stick together. The commander might arrange some groups for hot-keys but the players wouldn't notice it. Squad, without any special bonuses or such, would be easy to implement but a vast boost in terms of teamwork and coordination for sure.
2) "Mouse over" inserts. As a new player the first you'll see is a lot of stuff you have no clue about what it does and what it's used for. The sad part of this story is that there's no way to find it out in-game unless you ask someone else - and a lot of people simply don't like to do that, asking questions all over again. Maybe, because they expect the game to explain itself a bit better. If a new player, let's say rookie, therefore howers with a aimcross over a building let there pop up an insert which briefly explains its price, its requirements to be build and its function. Again, this is very basic stuff but which you help a lot of people because right now, the only one who has any sort of tooltips is the commander. But how can you expect your team be be effective if they have no clue what all that stuff there is about? I'm no fan of youtube videos and such. I mean, I know they're easy to make; but then again, it drags you out of the game. Nowadays people want to start a game and learn it by-doing. Point is, that NS2 makes it so utterly hard to learn it in-game as it is very stingy when it comes down to explanations and in-game tips and hints.
Therefore, I agree that this game has a steep learning curve and it needs to help new players much more. I don't agree that a second ruleset will do anything about it as a lot of players don't quit because their LMG does to much/to little damage but because they cannot see the bigger picture, or in other words, they don't get "What the fuck is all of this about?". As long as no one gives any practial examples I don't think a second and a third ruleset will change anything about that. Then again, I'd love to see more hints, tips and advices in-game and some sort of squad system for the marines. I think it's just a no-go that new players don't even have any brief tooltip which tells them that this is an armslab, this is a crag and this is a spur and such. Unless you ask, watch videos or go commander you'll never know. Please don't start with the explore mode. If I buy a game I want to have fun and not learn it like I'd learn math or chemistry, hanging over a book or doing some experiments in a sterile environment. I want to start the game and enjoy myself, learning it step by step.
this is a well thought out post; i couldn't agree more with the basic premises about playing for fun vs skilled knowledge and prioritization.
But sadly, two rulesets is just one ruleset too many. i think in some other game at some other time, your idea would be perfect. I think there is alot to be said for having one ruleset, i.e. one game, one set of rules. The implications of two rulesets and two separate engine updates / rules just seems to be too heavy.
a lot of games have competitive rulesets. Q3CPMA, CoD2 promod, CoD4 promod, Q4max to name just a few. It is definitely not a bad thing and not something UWE will have to do. The community can provide such a mod if one does not exist already.
Most games these days allow for downloading of mods on connection to a server, thus removing any barrier for anyone wanting to move to competitive. They can just join the server and the rest is done for them.
Why do we always assume that people are idiots who cannot learn things or adapt? NS2 and Competitive play are not for the lowest common denominator.. there are reality tv programs for that after all.
Comments
If retaining new players is the goal, then a different ruleset doesn't help anything. Take a look at all the basic suggestions, none of them make the game any less complex and subsequently easier to learn. If anything, a different ruleset just has different "correct" actions, which means to learn the 2nd ruleset, you have to forget and relearn, making more rules and adding complexity without adding depth even higher.
If there are any "newbie" rules you can think of that would reduce the learning curve while not chopping off entire sections of the game (like combat does) then why would these changes not just be good to implement into the current ruleset? can you come up with any rules that would help new players without castrating the game?
killing cysts already hurts the other side. Part of the depth of the game is knowing how to do the most damage to the other side given time/ammo. All this does is shift the "correct" actions around a bit, not make it less complex.
uhh, why? no reason was given. power still hurts the marines, part of the depth of the game. Even competitive players will kill power if its say, near a location that marines are trying to push into for a PG. same as above, shifts "correct" actions around but doesn't make it less complex.
adding cues for marines to stick together doesn't require 2 different rulesets. Actually a pretty good suggestion, maybe not in this form, but some kind of passive encouragement doesn't seem to me to have any drawbacks.
this is pure personal opinion and does not make the game easier to learn.
same as above, this is pure personal opinion and does not make the game easier to learn.
again, this is pure personal opinion and does not make the game easier to learn. in fact it makes it harder to learn as there is not an additional role.
again, this is pure personal opinion and does not make the game easier to learn.
I do not understand this change. blink as it stands is pretty intuitive. if people are getting stuck on map geometry that's not a complexity problem. the reasoning behind this seems to be... give newbies buffs so they don't feel so bad. like give newbies 50% more damage or something. which strikes me as bad.
uhhh, this is pure personal opinion and does not make the game easier to learn.
However, as someone who has played competitively, I wouldn't consider this a barrier. If anything I would want to be playing on those servers (casually) since they would offer a greater challenge.
Let's be honest here. The vast percentage of the player base will never play competitively, nor do they want to play competitively. That is not a knock against competitive gaming at all, it's just 'not their thing'.
Keep in mind I don't see this as a mode *solely* for competitive players. That's why I have called it 'advanced'. Or call it 'expert', or 'hard' mode. It's a difficulty level above the 'casual' level. Frankly, I bet a large chunk of the *casual* player base would play in that mode on a regular basis - I know I'd enjoy the challenge. Don't think of it like a mode that would only be active during competitive play, think of it like a server that has a 'hard mode'.
We had this in NS1 with many of Voogru's mods, which altered gameplay in ways that affected balance. One example was the armoury, which in his mod dispensed health. (it didn't back then) This altered gameplay since the comm no longer had to drop health packs for marines on a regular basis. This made it harder for aliens. But players adapted, and the mod became popular. So much so that it was made part of the base code.
No one is talking about adding scorpions that hovar without flapping here. While the OP's suggestions are a bit extreme, a more nuanced set of changes could be made. In ideal circumstances an 'advanced ruleset' shouldn't be markedly different than the 'normal ruleset'. It should just be harder. Perhaps people die easier, perhaps weapons are deadlier. Maybe it takes 3 more bullets to kill a non-carapace skulk, but it takes 3 bites to kill an armor 0 marine. These aren't things that a person will have to 'relearn the game' for. It will mean that people with poor aim will be dying more often. Perhaps weapons 'decay' and vanish a few seconds faster. This will reward teamwork since people who die solo won't be able to recover weapons. Just little things. On their own not significant, but in a package they will impact gameplay on subtle levels.
The simplest solution has already been posted. Request/commission/create a mod for this specific mode. Similar to weapon (mainly AWP) limits in CS:S. It changes the gameplay, but not enough to destroy competitive play. Usually, balance modification like this are done through mods. If a mod is proven good for overall gameplay, UWE can decide to add it for everyone.
UWE would be better off working on bugs, content updates, and one rule set, instead of balancing two separate rules set.
Also, making a game harder does change how it plays. Going from regular to realism L4D1/2 requires relearning key aspects, such as how to keep track of you teammates, finding ammo/weapons/items, etc. Going from classic to impossible difficulty in XCOM:EU requires relearning certain strategies and tactics that no longer work (its surprising how sectoid's having four bars of health instead of three forces you to change how you play the game).
I just don't think the value in separating out comp and pub version of the game outweighs the cost.
A competitive player may just as well have a weapon that does more damage simply by nature of their better aim. Does that not change how the game plays for them?
I guarantee that most casual players would find themselves in a 'different ruleset' if they were dumped into a competitive game, just by the nature of how competitive gamers play. So the "change how the game plays" argument fails on that point. The game is ALREADY changed in competitive games, simply by the nature of how they play. A casual player would indeed have to relearn many gameplay aspects.
Are people really trying to suggest that casual play and competitive play are the same thing? Really?
Are we averaging 20 years old?
I'm detecting alot of 25+ gamers out there, are we the 'old school' ? are the new players (especially those that didn't play NS1) equal in average age to existing NS2 (NS1) players?
Do we have higher than average (Steam spec polls?) system specs? Lower?
Are our 14 year old newbie gamers going to be 'old school' one day? I'd pay a few extra listens to those players.
This game suffers heavily from 0 tutorial but honestly it boggles the mind how much more team work was required to play NS 1 back in the day. I just can't see people giving up 40 PRes to drop a hive, 30 PRes to drop 3 chambers or gorges at the start spending all their PRes dropping an RT OC quickly. NS2 has been simplified and stream lined to a point it's nearly obscene, the amount of people asking for shit like HMG to come back just proves how many baddies were around in NS1 that just never 'got it' and want all their NS 1 cruxes back like HMG, HA that can phase/beacon, 10+ turrets, electro res.
I know for a fact the skewed win % on aliens is partial some things are unbalanced (gorges+bile being crazy effective) but 90% every marine sucks arse and has no idea what they're doing at any time, I comm way too many pub games with no mic that basically reinforces everyone expects to be micro'd every second they play in NS2 so they don't have to do any thinking themselves and can blame the comm for all their woes.
If anything the streamlining and simplifying of the game has hurt peoples ability to 'master' this game, in NS1 people knew if they didn't hold areas, report marine movement and scout with para/feed info back to the team it meant the guy gorging and dropping RTs could get fucked in egg form which could be a huge hit in the first 3 mins (less overall Pres meant slower hive, slower upgrades, that guy now can't drop RT or OC so someone else has to temp res), now there's only one person responsible for dropping RTs and even tho everyone is responsible for keeping them safe 9/10 aliens expect to be told everything and when and how to do it anyway.
tl;dr: MAP AWARENESS.
I found the greatest joy in NS1 by going skulk early, getting some kills to drop an early 2nd hive. You got the feeling of accomplishing something for the team. Now, everyone just plays for himself - at least on pubs.
This should be solved by improving the tutorial facilities of the game; not by creating a second rule set. If you've got two different rule sets, each with their own subtle differences, the tutorials are going to become even more useless. Then we'll need a tutorial just to explain all the differences between the two modes.
That is precisely what I am steadfastly opposed to. Different pub servers running subtly different rule sets - extremely annoying. A consistent experience from one play session to the next is important. You're idealised concept of players starting off on Normal mode servers and "graduating" to Advanced mode servers is unrealistic in practice. In many cases, players won't be able to find a decently populated server running the Normal rule set (especially in smaller territories). As such, they'll be forced to join an Advanced server and wind up getting confused as to why things that worked for them yesterday are not working for them today.
The best games are easy to learn and hard to master. No one here has the audacity to suggest that NS2 is easy to learn, not even the developers, and they wrote the game.
Actually, there was much more teamwork needed to play aliens then. Back in NS1 the game was pretty much flipped on its head. Instead of aliens being able to have their 'hive mind' and loose coordination, they needed extensive levels of teamwork, much greater than the marines. It was completely the opposite of how it should have been, and in NS2 Charlie has rectified this. Aliens now don't have the teamwork demands they used to, that now falls to marines.
Sorry, but I disagree. The game is no easier to learn now than it was in NS1. Have you talked to new players? At all? After the Christmas sale I was working with groups of them and most had a hell of a time trying to learn the game. Sure it's easy as marine to point and shoot, but that's such a small part of the game that it's laughable. When NS2 has a full training system that can pump out a player who knows 95% of what is in the game, then come tell me the game has been simplified. I lost count of how many alien players I had to tell that they could walk on walls, since as skulks many were running only on the floors. Fades? Hardly saw any since they couldn't figure out the mechanic and died fast. Simple? Sorry, I disagree.
If this game is so simple to learn, where are all the people who have bought copies? Why aren't they playing? Why are there less than half as many servers now than at launch? Why are there less than half as many players playing than at launch? NS2 is many things, but not easy or simple. If it was we wouldn't need training, and the game sorely does.
Just like NS1 was?
The problem you fail to consider here, which sets it apart from NS1, is that NS2 is a *business* and UWE has bills to pay. They don't have the money to work on a game that only appeals to 500 fanbois. If they can't sell copies, they will not be able to maintain the game.
I'll be honest here, I'd LOVE to be wrong on this. Seriously. If in a year's time they have been able to take their no trainer single ruleset game and build the player base - not shed more active players - then I'll be quite happy for them. Charlie and the guys have worked really hard on this, and I support them fully. While Charlie and I disagree on this point, I completely respect his decision on this since it's his baby. He has to raise it in the way that he feels is best.
Are you kidding me? First off, a full training system would take extensive resources. You would be building and programming something totally new. They have only a rudimentary AI system. While I would love to see a training system, I'm not holding my breath since they don't have the resources. It's not like they are selling copies by the millions here.
However, if - as a normal player - you have trouble 'figuring out' an advanced ruleset, then you shouldn't be playing in that ruleset anyway since you likely don't have the skill to do so. Some people have the aptitude to play in such a ruleset, but many will not. They won't have the skills or ability to play at that higher level. Just as if - with a single ruleset - you grabbed any casual player off a pub server and tossed him into a competitive game. Do you honestly think that player will have a clue how to play?
Competitive NS2 ≠ Casual NS2
They are apples and oranges, and nothing will change that. The vast majority of casual players would never survive in competitive games precisely because the difference in gameplay is far beyond any subtle differences that would exist between two rulesets. It's like two different worlds. They will have more to learn transitioning to competitive play than they ever would have with an advanced ruleset.
What kind of changes do you think would be in an advanced ruleset that would make entire game features inoperable? You're tossing up strawmen here. It's like you think an advanced ruleset would take away the skulk's mouth or something. Hyperbole much?
Really? So why do we have the 'rookie friendly' tag for servers then? Why? Because the game a new player plays is completely different from the game an 'experienced' player plays. Consistent experience? What about mods? That kinda blows your 'consistent experience' BS right out of the water now doesn't it?
If NS2 was a symmetrical and perfectly balanced game, that was easy to learn, I would agree with you. Seriously.
It's not.
There is no such thing as a consistent experience in NS2. Does not exist. As it stands we don't even have balance in the game and you're blustering about a 'consistent experience'? The next content patch is supposed to introduce a railgun. Consistent experience? There is no such thing in a game like this.
Like I said before, this game will sink or swim based on its ability to retain players. I work in this business, and I know from experience that you can't build a player base if players stop playing. There are bills to be paid, which means you need to keep selling copies to stay in business.
If this was NS1, when it was a free mod, then that's a different story. They had no pressures to sell copies, they could take the game in any direction they wanted without risk.
Come the beginning of December of this year, let's see where we are. We started with just over a thousand servers, most packed. We're down to just under five hundred now. How many do you figure will be around in ten months time?
However, I can expect the basic fade mechanics (movement, health, attack) to be the same in both comp and pub play even if I don't play fade the same way in both situations. Changing my fade play based on higher skill of my opponent is commonly expected and the enjoyable part of comp play. Changing my fade play because, for example, the blink mechanic is different in the 'comp ruleset' is just tedious and frustrating.
Modders already have to deal with game updates, in every game that gets regularly updated. The current mods available may need to be tweaked or rebalanced with upcoming additions and updates. Patches breaking mods is not a good excuse, especially with the Creation forum.
While it would seem easier for UWE, that's a drain on resources. No one (player) has a solid model to work from for proposed changes, or how to support them in the future.
If the player, who want these changes, would work on a mod for it, it would make it easier (for UWE) to see how the changes work.
If I could sum up with an axiom what I believe this ruleset can achieve, it's that a good game should be easy to learn and hard to master. Look at any of the top titles in any genre, and you will see this principle front and centre. Someone mentioned WoW as an example of good balance, yet look at how players start out. They start off 'easy' and it gets harder as you go Then when you hit the top you have normal and heroic mode instances. Two levels of challenge. People screamed that would 'kill Wow', but it's still around. Look at TF2, again it's an easy game to learn, but reaching the upper echelons of gameplay takes time. Then you have MvM and various skill levels there as well. L4D has skill levels too.
NS2 is a complex game. A hard to learn, no trainer mode, make one key mistake and your team loses game. There is very little forgiveness in this game, even if we ignore the current balance issues.
My POV is that by creating an advanced ruleset that sufficiently challenges the experienced player base, you can then tweak a normal ruleset in ways that make the game easier to play. This way you don't 'disturb' the core players, yet you can ease in new players without losing them to the learning curve. I am NOT talking an 'easy mode' here - so no one quote me out of context please.
What I am saying is that to maintain a challenge at the high end of gameplay, we have a game that has a notoriously hard learning curve. To put it simply, the normal ruleset would have more 'forgiveness', if you want to call it that.
Anyway, we're only debating principles here, since Charlie has said he doesn't want to take the game that way and I totally respect that.
That's the mentality I feel like you have to have if you think that the game MUST have separate rules to be "truely competitive".
Also, modders are free to make any advanced ruleset mods they want. However, previous attempts haven't worked so well because many of the experienced players can't agree on what changes should be made.
Best. reply. ever.
Not sure if serious, Team Fortress, Competitive FPS, tell me how many offline lans have been hosted for this competitive FPS m8.
Christ.
I agree on that, though, I won't agree on the suggestion for a second rule-set as long as no one could give me any examples what kind of changes and tweaks this easy-mode should contain. The ideas of the OP, of course, have nothing to do with an easy-mode as they're just mere tweaks to the game to move it in a bit different direction but there's nothing in it that makes the game any easier to play. You've give some paraphrized examples that maybe weapons should be more/less deadlier but still, that doesn't make the game any easier - it acutally makes it more difficult for one side.
I think the terminology of easy and hard is a bit out of place in a multiplayer game. You can have several modes in singleplayer games, you can have bots on difficult levels and so on but if you change the balance in a multiplayer game so that is becomes harder for one side it automactially becomes easier for the other one. In other words, you change the balance but you do not necessarily make the overall gaming experience any more easy to grasp. Make the LMG slightly more deadly and you would create an easy-mode for marines and a hard-mode for aliens. In all honesty, I think it makes no sense to debate this topic as long as there are no clear examples given how such changes could look like. From my perspective, we talk about balance changes here and you simply cannot balance a competitive multiplayer game in such a way that the overall (!) experience becomes easier for both sides. That the armoury refills HP and armour, which it didn't do back in NS1, makes the game easier for marines - but well, ask the alien side what they think about it!
I agree on the general notion that this game seriously needs to be easier to learn. At another time I've given already several easy-to-implement ideas how this game could be make more accessibly. Examples:
1) Marines should have some sort of squad system. What pub servers lack is often coordination but that might be because you have no visible feedback with whom you should stick together. The commander might arrange some groups for hot-keys but the players wouldn't notice it. Squad, without any special bonuses or such, would be easy to implement but a vast boost in terms of teamwork and coordination for sure.
2) "Mouse over" inserts. As a new player the first you'll see is a lot of stuff you have no clue about what it does and what it's used for. The sad part of this story is that there's no way to find it out in-game unless you ask someone else - and a lot of people simply don't like to do that, asking questions all over again. Maybe, because they expect the game to explain itself a bit better. If a new player, let's say rookie, therefore howers with a aimcross over a building let there pop up an insert which briefly explains its price, its requirements to be build and its function. Again, this is very basic stuff but which you help a lot of people because right now, the only one who has any sort of tooltips is the commander. But how can you expect your team be be effective if they have no clue what all that stuff there is about? I'm no fan of youtube videos and such. I mean, I know they're easy to make; but then again, it drags you out of the game. Nowadays people want to start a game and learn it by-doing. Point is, that NS2 makes it so utterly hard to learn it in-game as it is very stingy when it comes down to explanations and in-game tips and hints.
Therefore, I agree that this game has a steep learning curve and it needs to help new players much more. I don't agree that a second ruleset will do anything about it as a lot of players don't quit because their LMG does to much/to little damage but because they cannot see the bigger picture, or in other words, they don't get "What the fuck is all of this about?". As long as no one gives any practial examples I don't think a second and a third ruleset will change anything about that. Then again, I'd love to see more hints, tips and advices in-game and some sort of squad system for the marines. I think it's just a no-go that new players don't even have any brief tooltip which tells them that this is an armslab, this is a crag and this is a spur and such. Unless you ask, watch videos or go commander you'll never know. Please don't start with the explore mode. If I buy a game I want to have fun and not learn it like I'd learn math or chemistry, hanging over a book or doing some experiments in a sterile environment. I want to start the game and enjoy myself, learning it step by step.
But sadly, two rulesets is just one ruleset too many. i think in some other game at some other time, your idea would be perfect. I think there is alot to be said for having one ruleset, i.e. one game, one set of rules. The implications of two rulesets and two separate engine updates / rules just seems to be too heavy.
Most games these days allow for downloading of mods on connection to a server, thus removing any barrier for anyone wanting to move to competitive. They can just join the server and the rest is done for them.
Why do we always assume that people are idiots who cannot learn things or adapt? NS2 and Competitive play are not for the lowest common denominator.. there are reality tv programs for that after all.