I think it was fair, that gorges could bile nano from the vents. Like marines can easily ARC nano from both sides. Nano is an important location it should be easy to attack and difficult to defend for both teams.
The covers in sub were added at some point, but not in the recent patch. They are there for a long time now.
Weldable vents and an option in the map editor to allow vertical cyst-routs are needed indeed.
When I said those sub vent covers where always there, I don't mean from build 1, I mean they weren't added at the same time (or anywhere close to) the covers in nano.
When I said those sub vent covers where always there, I don't mean from build 1, I mean they weren't added at the same time (or anywhere close to) the covers in nano.
So by always there, you meant that they weren't always there.
Killing a gorge biling down the power at either Nanogrid OR Sub-sector before those lids were implemented was IMPOSSIBLE before jetpacks and grenade launchers, and even grenade launchers only slow the gorge down, since it can well dodge the grenades unless it's bad or very unlucky. People saying that it wasn't a problem since the gorge could be shot down anyway have either been playing the gorge wrong or playing against gorges who played it wrong. You could stand on a clog well into the Nanogrid vent, and bile the power in an arc so that the marines wouldnt even see you if they made a tower of 5 marines inside Nanogrid. And for marine to walk to the vent from the other side is pretty ridiculous, since it takes so much time that nano's power would be down already, and it's by no means an easy task to kill a gorge in tight quarters.
And people saying that it's reasonable since bile bomb is a 2-hive ability, whereas jetpacks are a 2-command-station ability are wrong too, since jetpacks come in way later in the game than bile bomb, because of the marine tech tree, the importance of getting other upgrades first so that marines won't lose the game before the jetpacks are up, and the cost and time it takes to research AA -> proto -> jetpacks. Aliens just need that second hive, and then spend 20res to get bile bomb.
It's a good change, though I do agree veil is one of the most marine-biased maps there are, though I'm not saying it's OP for marines as it is. With the current win ratios it's just a step in the right direction, though that will probably change if marines get buffed during the next patches. I'm pretty sure that we won't see any rework on the map ever, as it's an almost 1:1 copy of the original NS1 map (with a few changes mainly in the size and appearance of specific rooms, not map layout itself), and that is intended.
edit: And before too many people start writing novels about their strategies to kill the gorge involving jetpacks, grenade launchers, marine towers, marines climbing into the vents, pistol whipping and grenades strapped to the backs of suicidal squirrels, you must take into account that we're talking about a low-investment, low-risk alien lifeform, who, even after getting killed, could do the same thing again in one minute. And directing so much tech research and player attention to a single gorge is already a massive loss for the marines, even if they'd manage to handle the situation.
Aliens kinda need the hive 3 abilities to take out 2 CC marines.
Lol no, third hive barely does anything for aliens in terms of strength scaling....(unless you were somehow silly enough not to get shift and crag first) The only thing worth getting at third hive is stomp, but assuming you are fighting 2nd CC marines with JPS and Exos that stomp won't be too useful. As a result, the only thing third hives are good for is for denying marines more map control and providing a buffer in case one hive gets rushed.
Veil isn't marine biased because of the 4 TP setup, it's generally marine biased because against a good marine team aliens will struggle to hold on to 3 RTs. So it's a map layout thing, not to mention that if you manage to lock down Cargo while aliens are in either pipe or sub you can effectively shut them out of a second hive, which is almost always a GG. (If the 4 Tech Points were more evenly spread in terms of map layout this wouldn't be a problem, ergo it's not a problem with the 4 TP setup itself)
Just like marines can arc nano from two sides, aliens should have the chance to bilebomb nano from the vent. The only diffrence is that you can get bile bomb earlier then grenade launcher, if im not mistaken. And that is then of course and imbalance for the time being.
Killing a gorge biling down the power at either Nanogrid OR Sub-sector before those lids were implemented was IMPOSSIBLE before jetpacks and grenade launchers, and even grenade launchers only slow the gorge down, since it can well dodge the grenades unless it's bad or very unlucky. People saying that it wasn't a problem since the gorge could be shot down anyway have either been playing the gorge wrong or playing against gorges who played it wrong. You could stand on a clog well into the Nanogrid vent, and bile the power in an arc so that the marines wouldnt even see you if they made a tower of 5 marines inside Nanogrid. And for marine to walk to the vent from the other side is pretty ridiculous, since it takes so much time that nano's power would be down already, and it's by no means an easy task to kill a gorge in tight quarters.
edit: And before too many people start writing novels about their strategies to kill the gorge involving jetpacks, grenade launchers, marine towers, marines climbing into the vents, pistol whipping and grenades strapped to the backs of suicidal squirrels, you must take into account that we're talking about a low-investment, low-risk alien lifeform, who, even after getting killed, could do the same thing again in one minute. And directing so much tech research and player attention to a single gorge is already a massive loss for the marines, even if they'd manage to handle the situation.
You can't claim it "IMPOSSIBLE" to kill a gorge biling from the vent without jets or GL, and then in the same paragraph point out marines can in fact get in the vent and kill the gorge.
Sure it takes time, but this is game based on teamwork, get one marine to repair power and another to go kill the gorge, it is laughable to say its difficult to kill the gorge biling nano, to bile nano from that position the gorge is extremely vulnerable to a marine sneaking up below him, in which case its bye bye gorgie.
Speaking of strategy, here's one that doesn't involve GLs, jetpacks or even vent exploration, weld the power, madness i know, but welding the power negates damage caused by the gorge bile bombing, in which case the gorge will likely get bored soon and even if it doesn't it, welding the power gives the marines amble time to either research GLs, jetpacks or to kill the gorge by going into the vent.
@alf90: refer to my edit. And sorry about the word impossible, I just wanted to make a clear distinction between the truth and the people saying "you can shoot the gorge anyway, no probs". Also, a gorge in a vent is almost unkillable by a single marine in the same vent, the gorge can spam clogs faster than a single marine can destroy them, and spit is amazingly powerful in an environment where the marine can't dodge. Gorge bile is so powerful too, that it's highly unlikely that a marine will be able to be fast enough to get a welder and start welding the power node before its down if the gorge wasn't called before it started biling. And if he starts welding that, just switch to biling the res nodes, if that's not possible, wait until the marine gets bored and start again.
As anecdotal evidence goes, I have never failed to bile nanogrid down when I've tried it, both in public and competitive. Only once have marines actually managed to (or wasted their manpower, depends on how you look at it) sneak up behind me in the vent, and even then I managed to bile and spit him down.
People saying that it's fine since marines can just as easily ARC it down: ARCs are a huge investment for the marines, and need to be protected (i.e. less manpower elsewhere) while they're doing their job, whereas the gorge is a low-investment life form that has the ability to bile almost by default if the aliens have two hives.
I used to climb on the extractors and shoot the Gorges, why is it that you need a jetpack again? I personally find this change a bit... odd...
You can place a clog on the wall in the shaft of the vent, stand on it, out of the line of sight of marines on top of extractors, and bile in an arc. Draw damage makes it easy to see when you hit the power node.
Aliens kinda need the hive 3 abilities to take out 2 CC marines.
Lol no, third hive barely does anything for aliens in terms of strength scaling....(unless you were somehow silly enough not to get shift and crag first) The only thing worth getting at third hive is stomp, but assuming you are fighting 2nd CC marines with JPS and Exos that stomp won't be too useful. As a result, the only thing third hives are good for is for denying marines more map control and providing a buffer in case one hive gets rushed.
Dunno, but it's pretty damn hard, taking pot shots while jumping against a gorge with 150 + 2x150 = 450 effective health, who can block your shots with a clog and heal itself.
Dunno, but it's pretty damn hard, taking pot shots while jumping against a gorge with 150 + 2x150 = 450 effective health, who can block your shots with a clog and heal itself.
I can most certainly read. I am just reiterating it mostly because if you are dying to a gorge 1v1 when you get the jump on them (hint: shooting the clog out from under them and shooting them as they fall) and you still die to the gorge, you have bigger problems than gorges bile bombing nano.
@Industry: Gorges can make 10 clogs, which most certainly will be there since he's built the tower to get himself up in the first place. And even if he'd get the gorge down, refer to my previous posts as to why the gorge has still won.
0 Res marine kills a 10 res gorge repeatedly. I'd take that trade all day long. I am not saying the strategy wasn't stupid or powerful, it was both. But let's not make mountains out of molehills. It wasn't some unbeatable god mode that doesn't have consequences for the player spending 10 res every time he dies to try it again.
Whereas I will gladly trade a 10res lifeform again and again for the following:
a) an amazingly high chance of success, if the marines don't respond quickly enough or, even when they do, don't really know how to counter it (which usually applies on public servers)
b) diverting the attention of at least 2, maybe more marines, giving the rest of your team advantage on other fronts
c) even if unsuccessful, has been well worth a 10 res lifeform for reasons stated in b)
I don't think it's so much that it was OP or broken, it's more the fact that in PUB play it's not actually fun to be told you have to sit on the Power in nano welding for 10 minutes while marines tech up to GL/JP. Though rewarding I doubt it's actually FUN for the gorge in that situation also.
Correct me if I am wrong, but once a marine boosts into those vents they have to suicide to get out of them? Once again, not fun in PUB.
It's a strategy I doubt is used often in comp play, and one that is just frustrating to play against in PUB. Plus, the gorge can just hydra in the vent and own any marine that comes in 1on1.
I'm happy for it, I've been in a few pub games where 4 marines waste 3-4 minutes jumping around trying to shoot the gorge, all while the aliens take the rest of the map. I also don't think rectifying an obviously PUB based problem is going to impact the overall balance in comp-play.
I also don't think rectifying an obviously PUB based problem is going to impact the overall balance in comp-play.
It was annoying in competitive too, though obviously not as much as in public. Many cases on a public server you don't see a single marine even visiting nano for the 20-or-so seconds it takes for a gorge to bile the power, and even when they did, they didn't really know what was going on. They were staring at the power node and wondering if they were dreaming.
Yes I am fully aware of what the gorge can do in those vents, I was probably one of the first to start it. There is no point for a gorge to actually stay on the very top of the vents in nano due to a marine being able to jump on the extractors and shoot right in. However, a gorge can use clogs as a ladder to climb up the vents but stay just below the bottom of the top vents and use his bile bomb in an arc to kill the power node and since bullets only go straight most marines are say it’s an op gorge ability.
On the other side when I see or hear a gorge in the vent I simply tell the commander that we need GL’s asap. Some players say that the GL isn’t an option to counter since it’s so far up the marine tech tree and really doesn’t stop them. No it’s not and yes they do, it takes the same skill to arc a GL into those vents that a gorge takes to arc the bile bomb out. As for the player that says that a marine then has to stay there to prevent the gorge from bile bomb the whole game that also implies there must be a gorge waiting to bile bomb the whole game.
Players say that is op for the gorge in those vents, then what about being able to siege out the whole of nano from not 1 but 2 different sides.
I can say with 100% accuracy that there was no place that was safe inside that vent before. You didn't need a grenade launcher to tag the gorge either. As someone else pointed out, Marines can climb into those vents in the first place.
I guess at the end of the day this was an easier fix than the physics that allow Marines to play spiderman.
If anything the map is North sided seeing as you can access nano the fastest if you start on the north side. Most of the time, yeah, marines spawn there. But that is not always the case.
And why can't a marine get into a vent. They are maintenance characters. They only shoot skulks so they can build and repair. Any decent maintenance worker should be able to get in a vent...duh.
If you thought the vents in topo were all well and fine I do not know what to tell you. Sorry if you don't like the changes.
Pretty much this.
As map testers we made these changes based on the fact that aliens being able to camp the vent at a Marine natural resource tower without being able to be forced out (hand grenades anyone?) is overpowered.
In Nano Grid these changes were made because it was far too easy for a gorge to bile out Nano Grid from the vent. Minimal effort and resource, huge gain. Does that not sound overpowered? If you think it was fine then you clearly have no grasp of good gameplay and balance. There are no hand grenades, grenade launchers are usually not available until late game, it's just not reasonable for gorges to be able to do that, it is the same reason why sub-sector was closed off.
In the response "you can climb on the extractor", that doesn't guarantee anything because if the Gorge is just as good of a player he can easily back out of the vent and get right back up when he feels like it. It was almost unlimited harassment until Jetpack/GL. You're assuming the Gorge is stupid and is just going to stand there and let you shoot him.
Marines being able to use the physics to climb into vents is another concern but it's more of an engine issue not a map issue.
Filter Competitive instead of Public and you will see Aliens still have a 65+ % win rate on Veil. Even at public levels it is also high. It's just public players don't know how to play at the Pipeline Hive.
The people here claiming the map is Marine biased are very misinformed.
I'm really surprised the amount of people that complain about positive changes for Marines when Marines only win about 33-35% of the time depending on map and start locations. It's really disturbing that people complain when they are winning the majority of the games as alien.
Gorges can still evolve above the sub access TP (on the ventilation rotor thing) and bilebomb relatively unharmed (You'll take some hits but with some dancing and healing you can easily hold on for a while) from there, it's pretty fun
I'm really surprised the amount of people that complain about positive changes for Marines when Marines only win about 33-35% of the time depending on map and start locations. It's really disturbing that people complain when they are winning the majority of the games as alien.
Good god, check out the thread about shotguns now 2 shotting a fade.
Comments
The covers in sub were added at some point, but not in the recent patch. They are there for a long time now.
Weldable vents and an option in the map editor to allow vertical cyst-routs are needed indeed.
So by always there, you meant that they weren't always there.
And people saying that it's reasonable since bile bomb is a 2-hive ability, whereas jetpacks are a 2-command-station ability are wrong too, since jetpacks come in way later in the game than bile bomb, because of the marine tech tree, the importance of getting other upgrades first so that marines won't lose the game before the jetpacks are up, and the cost and time it takes to research AA -> proto -> jetpacks. Aliens just need that second hive, and then spend 20res to get bile bomb.
It's a good change, though I do agree veil is one of the most marine-biased maps there are, though I'm not saying it's OP for marines as it is. With the current win ratios it's just a step in the right direction, though that will probably change if marines get buffed during the next patches. I'm pretty sure that we won't see any rework on the map ever, as it's an almost 1:1 copy of the original NS1 map (with a few changes mainly in the size and appearance of specific rooms, not map layout itself), and that is intended.
edit: And before too many people start writing novels about their strategies to kill the gorge involving jetpacks, grenade launchers, marine towers, marines climbing into the vents, pistol whipping and grenades strapped to the backs of suicidal squirrels, you must take into account that we're talking about a low-investment, low-risk alien lifeform, who, even after getting killed, could do the same thing again in one minute. And directing so much tech research and player attention to a single gorge is already a massive loss for the marines, even if they'd manage to handle the situation.
Lol no, third hive barely does anything for aliens in terms of strength scaling....(unless you were somehow silly enough not to get shift and crag first) The only thing worth getting at third hive is stomp, but assuming you are fighting 2nd CC marines with JPS and Exos that stomp won't be too useful. As a result, the only thing third hives are good for is for denying marines more map control and providing a buffer in case one hive gets rushed.
Veil isn't marine biased because of the 4 TP setup, it's generally marine biased because against a good marine team aliens will struggle to hold on to 3 RTs. So it's a map layout thing, not to mention that if you manage to lock down Cargo while aliens are in either pipe or sub you can effectively shut them out of a second hive, which is almost always a GG. (If the 4 Tech Points were more evenly spread in terms of map layout this wouldn't be a problem, ergo it's not a problem with the 4 TP setup itself)
You can't claim it "IMPOSSIBLE" to kill a gorge biling from the vent without jets or GL, and then in the same paragraph point out marines can in fact get in the vent and kill the gorge.
Sure it takes time, but this is game based on teamwork, get one marine to repair power and another to go kill the gorge, it is laughable to say its difficult to kill the gorge biling nano, to bile nano from that position the gorge is extremely vulnerable to a marine sneaking up below him, in which case its bye bye gorgie.
Speaking of strategy, here's one that doesn't involve GLs, jetpacks or even vent exploration, weld the power, madness i know, but welding the power negates damage caused by the gorge bile bombing, in which case the gorge will likely get bored soon and even if it doesn't it, welding the power gives the marines amble time to either research GLs, jetpacks or to kill the gorge by going into the vent.
As anecdotal evidence goes, I have never failed to bile nanogrid down when I've tried it, both in public and competitive. Only once have marines actually managed to (or wasted their manpower, depends on how you look at it) sneak up behind me in the vent, and even then I managed to bile and spit him down.
People saying that it's fine since marines can just as easily ARC it down: ARCs are a huge investment for the marines, and need to be protected (i.e. less manpower elsewhere) while they're doing their job, whereas the gorge is a low-investment life form that has the ability to bile almost by default if the aliens have two hives.
You can place a clog on the wall in the shaft of the vent, stand on it, out of the line of sight of marines on top of extractors, and bile in an arc. Draw damage makes it easy to see when you hit the power node.
Umbra.
Not to mention you can just boost into the vent in one of the junctions and go shoot the clog out from under them and kill them....
Already addressed many times, see previous posts.
I'm not saying it's impossible (even though I did say it's impossible). See previous posts.
Dunno, but it's pretty damn hard, taking pot shots while jumping against a gorge with 150 + 2x150 = 450 effective health, who can block your shots with a clog and heal itself.
I can most certainly read. I am just reiterating it mostly because if you are dying to a gorge 1v1 when you get the jump on them (hint: shooting the clog out from under them and shooting them as they fall) and you still die to the gorge, you have bigger problems than gorges bile bombing nano.
a) an amazingly high chance of success, if the marines don't respond quickly enough or, even when they do, don't really know how to counter it (which usually applies on public servers)
b) diverting the attention of at least 2, maybe more marines, giving the rest of your team advantage on other fronts
c) even if unsuccessful, has been well worth a 10 res lifeform for reasons stated in b)
Correct me if I am wrong, but once a marine boosts into those vents they have to suicide to get out of them? Once again, not fun in PUB.
It's a strategy I doubt is used often in comp play, and one that is just frustrating to play against in PUB. Plus, the gorge can just hydra in the vent and own any marine that comes in 1on1.
I'm happy for it, I've been in a few pub games where 4 marines waste 3-4 minutes jumping around trying to shoot the gorge, all while the aliens take the rest of the map. I also don't think rectifying an obviously PUB based problem is going to impact the overall balance in comp-play.
It was annoying in competitive too, though obviously not as much as in public. Many cases on a public server you don't see a single marine even visiting nano for the 20-or-so seconds it takes for a gorge to bile the power, and even when they did, they didn't really know what was going on. They were staring at the power node and wondering if they were dreaming.
On the other side when I see or hear a gorge in the vent I simply tell the commander that we need GL’s asap. Some players say that the GL isn’t an option to counter since it’s so far up the marine tech tree and really doesn’t stop them. No it’s not and yes they do, it takes the same skill to arc a GL into those vents that a gorge takes to arc the bile bomb out. As for the player that says that a marine then has to stay there to prevent the gorge from bile bomb the whole game that also implies there must be a gorge waiting to bile bomb the whole game.
Players say that is op for the gorge in those vents, then what about being able to siege out the whole of nano from not 1 but 2 different sides.
I guess at the end of the day this was an easier fix than the physics that allow Marines to play spiderman.
If anything the map is North sided seeing as you can access nano the fastest if you start on the north side. Most of the time, yeah, marines spawn there. But that is not always the case.
And why can't a marine get into a vent. They are maintenance characters. They only shoot skulks so they can build and repair. Any decent maintenance worker should be able to get in a vent...duh.
wut
Pretty much this.
As map testers we made these changes based on the fact that aliens being able to camp the vent at a Marine natural resource tower without being able to be forced out (hand grenades anyone?) is overpowered.
In Nano Grid these changes were made because it was far too easy for a gorge to bile out Nano Grid from the vent. Minimal effort and resource, huge gain. Does that not sound overpowered? If you think it was fine then you clearly have no grasp of good gameplay and balance. There are no hand grenades, grenade launchers are usually not available until late game, it's just not reasonable for gorges to be able to do that, it is the same reason why sub-sector was closed off.
In the response "you can climb on the extractor", that doesn't guarantee anything because if the Gorge is just as good of a player he can easily back out of the vent and get right back up when he feels like it. It was almost unlimited harassment until Jetpack/GL. You're assuming the Gorge is stupid and is just going to stand there and let you shoot him.
Marines being able to use the physics to climb into vents is another concern but it's more of an engine issue not a map issue.
http://ns2stats.org/map/map/5
Filter Competitive instead of Public and you will see Aliens still have a 65+ % win rate on Veil. Even at public levels it is also high. It's just public players don't know how to play at the Pipeline Hive.
The people here claiming the map is Marine biased are very misinformed.
I'm really surprised the amount of people that complain about positive changes for Marines when Marines only win about 33-35% of the time depending on map and start locations. It's really disturbing that people complain when they are winning the majority of the games as alien.
Good god, check out the thread about shotguns now 2 shotting a fade.