<!--quoteo(post=2056986:date=Jan 6 2013, 02:30 PM:name=Ghosthree3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ghosthree3 @ Jan 6 2013, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056986"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->^Celerity doesn't turn off in combat in NS2 anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes it does, test it yourself
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->function Alien:OnPrimaryAttack() self.timeCelerityInterrupted = Shared.GetTime() end
function Alien:OnDamageDone(doer, target) if not doer or not doer:isa("Hydra") then self.timeCelerityInterrupted = Shared.GetTime() end end<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
There is also a part when you take damage. Celerity does turn off in combat.
NS1 blink performed both the short/long and combat/exploration roles really well. It's sharp momentum increase, high energy drain and good air movement (and bunnyhop to keep momentum) made it a really versatile mechanic. If you had added SS to NS1, everyone would have asked you why. If you had added the NS2 style blink, you'd get the same response.
NS2 has sadly split the functionality of NS1 blink into two inferior counterparts.
function Alien:OnDamageDone(doer, target) if not doer or not doer:isa("Hydra") then self.timeCelerityInterrupted = Shared.GetTime() end end<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
There is also a part when you take damage. Celerity does turn off in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just tested that, ran around with celerity on randomly hitting primary attack, no change in speed, full celerity at all times. Also tested running around getting shot by turrets, I got SEVERELY slowed when being hit by bullets (more than not having celerity at all) but immediately after not being hit anymore, regained full celerity speed.
<!--quoteo(post=2057066:date=Jan 6 2013, 05:34 PM:name=Ghosthree3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ghosthree3 @ Jan 6 2013, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was testing in a normal game, no speed lost biting, there was no building after being shot, it just snapped back to full speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i just tested it with debugspeed. you lose speed when attacking or getting shot
It is on a good place right now, but a little bit to weak. The fade can be very powerful, because it is the life form with the best escape-ability. If you buff the health or energy of the fade only a little bit to much, it becomes overpowered very fast.
You have 2 ways to tweak the fade. Either changing the health: Low health will get it killed more often, but is also more frustrating because most cases are lucky hits. Or changing the energy: High blink-costs can kill you when you overextend. But at least, you know it was your fault that you died, not 2 lucky SG-hits.
I also agree, that SS is redundant and should be removed. Than blink should be moved to hive1 and vortex to hive2. Hive3 could be something like acid rocket, metabolize or a new ability.
To conclude what we have right now: A fade is only good against marines (bad against buildings). And only against groups of <= 2. If you fight against 3, you already risk dieing. While kills won't make you win a game, stopping or binding marines to a place can win you a game. With this in mind, I find the cheaper lerk more effective in this task.
Fade without SS or a bhop isn't a fade I'd like to use at all. And ffs please increase it's hp by 50, ###### fades will still over commit and be ###### fades but it'll reduce better fades dying after being 2 shot with some random in the back spraying the lights and picking you up with 20dmg as you blink away.
Fades simply don't feel like a threat in NS2, I haven't seen a single fade in 300ish hours of NS2 that made me go "holy ###### this guy", I've seen and played against/with some pretty good ones but they'll always be 2 lucky shotgun blasts away from instant death. I'd love to see a scrim/war of some high level fade play where a team rushed a fade egg second hive or only techhed to fades to sweep a game.
I think it's interesting to see how on this topic we've had players say that they want shadow step removed when other said they only rarely used blink. It might prove what some have been saying, that blink and SS lack some differentiation.
I'm far from being a pro-fade but I also only use SS + jump combos until I need to chase a JP.
It is particularly interesting to have the feedback of ns1 players on the topic. @Tane Thank you for explaining the way you used blink and BH to play the ns1 fade. When you now play ns2, how do you currently use SS or blink ?
<!--quoteo(post=2057422:date=Jan 8 2013, 02:52 AM:name=Xao)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xao @ Jan 8 2013, 02:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fade without SS or a bhop isn't a fade I'd like to use at all. And ffs please increase it's hp by 50, ###### fades will still over commit and be ###### fades but it'll reduce better fades dying after being 2 shot with some random in the back spraying the lights and picking you up with 20dmg as you blink away.
Fades simply don't feel like a threat in NS2, I haven't seen a single fade in 300ish hours of NS2 that made me go "holy ###### this guy", I've seen and played against/with some pretty good ones but they'll always be 2 lucky shotgun blasts away from instant death. I'd love to see a scrim/war of some high level fade play where a team rushed a fade egg second hive or only techhed to fades to sweep a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're on aus servers, so you should know, Azukay and Nyph, in order, hands down amazing.
my only complaint if for the energy consumption maybe the movement should be a little quicker in it. Sure it gives some protection but its still a pretty easy to take someone using it out.
At one point in te beta fade was movement was JUST PERFECT and it had the correct amount of movement inheritance and was very fun to play. THEN it was changed and blink was made useless after that. Why? Why can we not have nice things?
<!--quoteo(post=2057587:date=Jan 8 2013, 01:31 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Jan 8 2013, 01:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057587"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At one point in te beta fade was movement was JUST PERFECT and it had the correct amount of movement inheritance and was very fun to play. THEN it was changed and blink was made useless after that. Why? Why can we not have nice things?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you talking about those times when marines typed gg when they spotted first fade? I'm joking ofcourse, but in late beta fades were so OP that you didn't even need onos. Current fades are almost in the right spot but they really need atleast 50 more hp.
Another thing that slowed the fade was the change of how the adrenaline works. Uwe should make adrenaline increase energy regen speed again.
<!--quoteo(post=2057594:date=Jan 7 2013, 06:48 PM:name=ItAx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ItAx @ Jan 7 2013, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057594"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you talking about those times when marines typed gg when they spotted first fade? I'm joking ofcourse, but in late beta fades were so OP that you didn't even need onos. Current fades are almost in the right spot but they really need atleast 50 more hp.
Another thing that slowed the fade was the change of how the adrenaline works. Uwe should make adrenaline increase energy regen speed again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, this was the change when UWE finally realized NS1 fade movement was good and implemented it almost fully on the fade, but then nerfed it because apparently the fun needed to be curbed back. The fade does not need any more energy than he gets, adrenaline is fine it just needs to have different values for different lifeforms instead of being a static buff, because it is useless on the skulk, lerk, and onos. For the onos it might as well provide infinite energy because celerity is just that good on onos. For lerk there is no point because spores is the most worthless upgrade in the game against good players. For skulk, it barely provides enough for 1-2 extra leaps, which means nothing compared to celerity.
<!--quoteo(post=2057642:date=Jan 7 2013, 07:48 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Jan 7 2013, 07:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For lerk there is no point because spores is the most worthless upgrade in the game against good players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Totally disagree. Most people just don't know how to spore well. If you're sporing to kill, you have to be doing so in such a way that you give the marines no option: whether they advance or retreat, they have to run through your spores. Spore behind and ahead, and use the map to your advantage.
If you're sporing to crowd control or funnel the marines in a particular direction, make sure that there is no clearing where you don't want the marines to be.
It's hardly worthless. While it has counters and can be mitigated, it can also be one of the most annoying things for marines to deal with.
<!--quoteo(post=2057085:date=Jan 6 2013, 05:25 PM:name=Ghosthree3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ghosthree3 @ Jan 6 2013, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057085"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Need a dev to confirm apart from the post I already linked (lol) because we're getting very different results.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Have you tested with debug speed on? If not, then you aren't getting different results, you're testing wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=2055689:date=Jan 3 2013, 06:11 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jan 3 2013, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another problem my be celerity and how hard it is to hit anything that's moving so quickly. I tried to address this in the beta by having celerity only work outside of combat (ie, have it slowly increase and let you get between rooms quickly, but stop working once you take damage or attack). Most people didn't seem to like that concept though, so it was changed. Maybe it's a culprit now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBMgyjyCxEE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBMgyjyCxEE</a>
<!--quoteo(post=2057642:date=Jan 7 2013, 05:48 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Jan 7 2013, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, this was the change when UWE finally realized NS1 fade movement was good and implemented it almost fully on the fade, but then nerfed it because apparently the fun needed to be curbed back. The fade does not need any more energy than he gets, adrenaline is fine it just needs to have different values for different lifeforms instead of being a static buff, because it is useless on the skulk, lerk, and onos. For the onos it might as well provide infinite energy because celerity is just that good on onos. For lerk there is no point because spores is the most worthless upgrade in the game against good players. For skulk, it barely provides enough for 1-2 extra leaps, which means nothing compared to celerity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
chewing buildings drains additional energy adrenaline problem is solved.
When I played fade the other day I found blink very useful, I use it like I would a jetpack, not constantly, but it's great for getting around, and very useful for escaping/entering combat. You can't rely on it constantly, but that's good. I found that I could kill maybe one marine before having to retreat due to being shot, but I could do some good damage and retreat using blink. I'd have died many times without it but it doesn't turn me into an invincible murdermachine.
<!--quoteo(post=2057824:date=Jan 8 2013, 12:53 AM:name=Ghosthree3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ghosthree3 @ Jan 8 2013, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So celerity is intended to stay on in combat, but they forgot to change it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd love to get the old blink back, the one where you kept your acceleration speed from blink itself. As opposed to how it's working right now (Blink -> Back to slow speed). I also noticed that getting blink leads to really sloppy gameplay on my side. Having only SS is way more efficient to get around quickly, SS is overall the superior movement skill it's only downside being that you can't go vertical.
And SS not going vertical is an problem in itself, considering the fade can't even use ladders. There are fun times to be had on mineshaft at central drilling without blink. Right now i only use blink when i need to go vertical or in panic "wtf where am i?" situations and that's kinda weak considering it's an 2 hive skill.
Imho giving SS some verticality and buffing blink in some way would be my choice. Or maybe add verticality to SS, remove blink and instead add metabolize? But as of now i really don't see that many synergies between blink and SS, while SS is clearly the better choice of the two.
I disagree that blink is not good. I am still learning to use them together really effectively. Lately I have been doing something like - Use shadowstep, attack, blink up, blink down attack, shadowstep to confuse, blink back in to attack again.
With just shadowstep I find that I get murdered in the cooldown timing or I overshoot the marine sometimes and I need blink to get back into range fast enough to not get killed.
With just blink I run out of energy too fast.
I really enjoy the feeling you can get from using them together well, feels very skill based. Having just blink would be acceptable I guess, but man would it slow down your ability to get around the map...you can't just blink around all the time because you need full energy when you enter combat.
<!--quoteo(post=2057642:date=Jan 7 2013, 07:48 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Jan 7 2013, 07:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...] adrenaline is fine it just needs to have different values for different lifeforms instead of being a static buff, because it is useless on the skulk, [...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know about useless. I have had some success using adren on a skulk, especially once you get leap. Most knowledgeable marines will not expect the couple extra leaps you get with adren. It's also good to have that extra energy to leap away from a fight that just turned south. Toss in Silence and you are now quiet flying teeth, that can disappear in a second. Kinda like a baby Fade.
<!--quoteo(post=2057642:date=Jan 8 2013, 12:48 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Jan 8 2013, 12:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fade does not need any more energy than he gets, adrenaline is fine it just needs to have different values for different lifeforms instead of being a static buff, because it is useless on the skulk, lerk, and onos. For skulk, it barely provides enough for 1-2 extra leaps, which means nothing compared to celerity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agree with the the things above. I personally think Fade is fine the way he is now, using SS, Blink & double jump together can give quite an edge at both combat & getting around the map. Not going to argue about Fades running out of energy quite fast without adrenaline though, but with it I think they're fine.
<!--quoteo(post=2057866:date=Jan 8 2013, 01:55 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 8 2013, 01:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057866"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know about useless. I have had some success using adren on a skulk, especially once you get leap. Most knowledgeable marines will not expect the couple extra leaps you get with adren. It's also good to have that extra energy to leap away from a fight that just turned south. Toss in Silence and you are now quiet flying teeth, that can disappear in a second. Kinda like a baby Fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Distance-wise, those leaps won't mean anything compared to celerity & constant wall jumping for extra speed. If you're picking adrenaline on a skulk over celerity just to get an extra leap or two, you'll need to rethink some stuff. It might save you in some circumstances but celerity will always come out on top in the end.
Comments
yes it does, test it yourself
I have tested it myself, it doesn't there's also a post I will link if I can find, by an admin, saying it was made "always on" a few patches ago.
EDIT: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=126646&st=160&p=2055689&#entry2055689" target="_blank">Here you go</a>
self.timeCelerityInterrupted = Shared.GetTime()
end
function Alien:OnDamageDone(doer, target)
if not doer or not doer:isa("Hydra") then
self.timeCelerityInterrupted = Shared.GetTime()
end
end<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
There is also a part when you take damage. Celerity does turn off in combat.
NS2 has sadly split the functionality of NS1 blink into two inferior counterparts.
self.timeCelerityInterrupted = Shared.GetTime()
end
function Alien:OnDamageDone(doer, target)
if not doer or not doer:isa("Hydra") then
self.timeCelerityInterrupted = Shared.GetTime()
end
end<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
There is also a part when you take damage. Celerity does turn off in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just tested that, ran around with celerity on randomly hitting primary attack, no change in speed, full celerity at all times. Also tested running around getting shot by turrets, I got SEVERELY slowed when being hit by bullets (more than not having celerity at all) but immediately after not being hit anymore, regained full celerity speed.
Also celerity speed 'builds' over a short duration so once lost you do not regain it instantly.
i just tested it with debugspeed. you lose speed when attacking or getting shot
It is on a good place right now, but a little bit to weak. The fade can be very powerful, because it is the life form with the best escape-ability. If you buff the health or energy of the fade only a little bit to much, it becomes overpowered very fast.
You have 2 ways to tweak the fade. Either changing the health: Low health will get it killed more often, but is also more frustrating because most cases are lucky hits. Or changing the energy: High blink-costs can kill you when you overextend. But at least, you know it was your fault that you died, not 2 lucky SG-hits.
I also agree, that SS is redundant and should be removed. Than blink should be moved to hive1 and vortex to hive2. Hive3 could be something like acid rocket, metabolize or a new ability.
To conclude what we have right now: A fade is only good against marines (bad against buildings). And only against groups of <= 2. If you fight against 3, you already risk dieing. While kills won't make you win a game, stopping or binding marines to a place can win you a game. With this in mind, I find the cheaper lerk more effective in this task.
Fades simply don't feel like a threat in NS2, I haven't seen a single fade in 300ish hours of NS2 that made me go "holy ###### this guy", I've seen and played against/with some pretty good ones but they'll always be 2 lucky shotgun blasts away from instant death. I'd love to see a scrim/war of some high level fade play where a team rushed a fade egg second hive or only techhed to fades to sweep a game.
I'm far from being a pro-fade but I also only use SS + jump combos until I need to chase a JP.
It is particularly interesting to have the feedback of ns1 players on the topic.
@Tane Thank you for explaining the way you used blink and BH to play the ns1 fade. When you now play ns2, how do you currently use SS or blink ?
Fades simply don't feel like a threat in NS2, I haven't seen a single fade in 300ish hours of NS2 that made me go "holy ###### this guy", I've seen and played against/with some pretty good ones but they'll always be 2 lucky shotgun blasts away from instant death. I'd love to see a scrim/war of some high level fade play where a team rushed a fade egg second hive or only techhed to fades to sweep a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're on aus servers, so you should know, Azukay and Nyph, in order, hands down amazing.
Sure it gives some protection but its still a pretty easy to take someone using it out.
----
I want blink multi-directional back :D that's when I started loving fades/or playing ns2.
Are you talking about those times when marines typed gg when they spotted first fade?
I'm joking ofcourse, but in late beta fades were so OP that you didn't even need onos.
Current fades are almost in the right spot but they really need atleast 50 more hp.
Another thing that slowed the fade was the change of how the adrenaline works.
Uwe should make adrenaline increase energy regen speed again.
I'm joking ofcourse, but in late beta fades were so OP that you didn't even need onos.
Current fades are almost in the right spot but they really need atleast 50 more hp.
Another thing that slowed the fade was the change of how the adrenaline works.
Uwe should make adrenaline increase energy regen speed again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, this was the change when UWE finally realized NS1 fade movement was good and implemented it almost fully on the fade, but then nerfed it because apparently the fun needed to be curbed back. The fade does not need any more energy than he gets, adrenaline is fine it just needs to have different values for different lifeforms instead of being a static buff, because it is useless on the skulk, lerk, and onos. For the onos it might as well provide infinite energy because celerity is just that good on onos. For lerk there is no point because spores is the most worthless upgrade in the game against good players. For skulk, it barely provides enough for 1-2 extra leaps, which means nothing compared to celerity.
If you're sporing to crowd control or funnel the marines in a particular direction, make sure that there is no clearing where you don't want the marines to be.
It's hardly worthless. While it has counters and can be mitigated, it can also be one of the most annoying things for marines to deal with.
Have you tested with debug speed on? If not, then you aren't getting different results, you're testing wrong.
Edit: See someone pointed that out.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBMgyjyCxEE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBMgyjyCxEE</a>
chewing buildings drains additional energy adrenaline problem is solved.
So celerity is intended to stay on in combat, but they forgot to change it?
That's my guess.
I also noticed that getting blink leads to really sloppy gameplay on my side. Having only SS is way more efficient to get around quickly, SS is overall the superior movement skill it's only downside being that you can't go vertical.
And SS not going vertical is an problem in itself, considering the fade can't even use ladders. There are fun times to be had on mineshaft at central drilling without blink.
Right now i only use blink when i need to go vertical or in panic "wtf where am i?" situations and that's kinda weak considering it's an 2 hive skill.
Imho giving SS some verticality and buffing blink in some way would be my choice. Or maybe add verticality to SS, remove blink and instead add metabolize?
But as of now i really don't see that many synergies between blink and SS, while SS is clearly the better choice of the two.
With just shadowstep I find that I get murdered in the cooldown timing or I overshoot the marine sometimes and I need blink to get back into range fast enough to not get killed.
With just blink I run out of energy too fast.
I really enjoy the feeling you can get from using them together well, feels very skill based. Having just blink would be acceptable I guess, but man would it slow down your ability to get around the map...you can't just blink around all the time because you need full energy when you enter combat.
I don't know about useless. I have had some success using adren on a skulk, especially once you get leap. Most knowledgeable marines will not expect the couple extra leaps you get with adren. It's also good to have that extra energy to leap away from a fight that just turned south. Toss in Silence and you are now quiet flying teeth, that can disappear in a second. Kinda like a baby Fade.
Agree with the the things above.
I personally think Fade is fine the way he is now, using SS, Blink & double jump together can give quite an edge at both combat & getting around the map. Not going to argue about Fades running out of energy quite fast without adrenaline though, but with it I think they're fine.
<!--quoteo(post=2057866:date=Jan 8 2013, 01:55 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 8 2013, 01:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057866"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know about useless. I have had some success using adren on a skulk, especially once you get leap. Most knowledgeable marines will not expect the couple extra leaps you get with adren. It's also good to have that extra energy to leap away from a fight that just turned south. Toss in Silence and you are now quiet flying teeth, that can disappear in a second. Kinda like a baby Fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Distance-wise, those leaps won't mean anything compared to celerity & constant wall jumping for extra speed. If you're picking adrenaline on a skulk over celerity just to get an extra leap or two, you'll need to rethink some stuff. It might save you in some circumstances but celerity will always come out on top in the end.