<!--quoteo(post=2043104:date=Dec 10 2012, 03:23 PM:name=xxswatelitexx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xxswatelitexx @ Dec 10 2012, 03:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043104"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are not looking at mines from a global perspective
In order for marines to push, marines have to leave the base. The Aliens don't need to do that. All the aliens can constantly harass the base while the commander can build all the structures him self This makes marines limited in how much they can build.
Mines slow down harassement while they can expand, and get resource with a temporary defense early game Where Alien commander has it easy and can expand without needing any alien to help build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, I agree with you, mines perform a very valuable role in NS2. So how does that discredit that mines are too powerful in the early game and too weak in the late game? And how does it indicate that this is not a problem that could be worked on?
I don't want to make out like this is the most pressing balance concern in NS2 right now, but I think it's a real issue.
MaximumSquid: You can set off mines without taking damage with celerity. I think the metagame is more likely to move in the direction of that being the dominant address for harass skulks dealing with mines, which I also really don't like, because it's an absurd knifes edge thing that new players would have a really hard time figuring out.
The '10 res for 4' mines was perfect. Cost res, but you got a return on that investment. Consider how many kills you can get with a 20 res shottie? The mines only offer a <b>*FINITE*</b> number of<b> *POTENTIAL*</b> kills. Once carapace is in place a single mine won't kill a skulk. Furthermore they don't stack, despite those people who still insist on placing then near one another.
What aliens need to learn to do is work in tandem pairs. I'll often group with another skulk, and I'll go in to suicide clear a mine or two so he can followup with the building or power node destruction. Not hard. Mines are about as powerful as a sentry nest - and I think those cost too much right now for how weak they are.
As for a possible upgrade for mines at proto, what about making them bounce up and target the nearest alien? Similar to the <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfbhcqrKtno" target="_blank">Bouncing Betty</a>, that is, even if they get damaged. So a bileing gorge might get hit if he gets too close.
Another thing: Do mines profit from weapon upgrades? If not, why?
And finally, the cost of mines in ns1 was even less than 10 res because of RFK. Which means if you killed something with your mines, you got a return on your investment. You dont have that right now which makes them even more expensive.
Yeah, let's buff an already overpowered-in-early-game item by 100%. Great idea. Let's allow 5 marines to drop 40 mines at the start of the game. That'll be balanced. /s
I always figured that mines should be designed so that having them close together would stack damage to actually kill. I'd rather see a larger AOE, but weaker individual mine so that a lone mine doesn't kill *any* skulk, I'd have no problem if three surrounding that thing you wanted to defend killed it, but a random mine here and there isn't going to do much except weaken the skulk.
I would also say that bile bomb shouldn't hard counter them then, maybe take 2 or 3 splashes to set them off.
<!--quoteo(post=2043253:date=Dec 10 2012, 07:56 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 10 2012, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Put me on the 'mines are underpowered side'.
The '10 res for 4' mines was perfect. Cost res, but you got a return on that investment. Consider how many kills you can get with a 20 res shottie? The mines only offer a <b>*FINITE*</b> number of<b> *POTENTIAL*</b> kills. Once carapace is in place a single mine won't kill a skulk. Furthermore they don't stack, despite those people who still insist on placing then near one another.
What aliens need to learn to do is work in tandem pairs. I'll often group with another skulk, and I'll go in to suicide clear a mine or two so he can followup with the building or power node destruction. Not hard. Mines are about as powerful as a sentry nest - and I think those cost too much right now for how weak they are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> See, this is the thing, there are no 2 sides. That's what's really frustrating about this, if I make this thread, and I explain the issue thoroughly, I get a bunch of posts that say "mines are too weak!" and "no, mines are too powerful!"
Both are right. There's a very very good reason why mines are rushed in the early game of every competitive match. Simply put, for the pres you spend on them, and the fact that the shotgun is negligibly superior to the AR against skulks, mines are just the obvious choice. And they make the game MISERABLE for early game aliens. This even works well in pubs if you care to try it some time.
But then, time ticks on, and lerks come out, and bile bomb comes out, and onos and fades start running around your base... and all of a sudden if you put down a mine pack you're overwhelmingly lucky to get any investment return on it at all. Well, it looks like mines are underpowered, they're just not useful any more!
To the competitive player right now, you can't sacrifice the early game advantage mines provide to save for an exo. Exo's are silly, MORE than hard to make useful when your opponents know what they're doing, and generally not very high skill. Additionally, jetpacks are dirt cheap, and BRUTALLY effective when you know how to use them, and work together well, you don't need the p-res you spent on mines in the early game for anything in the late game, so you really haven't sacrificed anything by spending it. Why not make an investment that almost always pays off when it has no real long term cost?
To the pub player, he may be saving up for an exo because he can't really be a godly murderer with a jetpack shotgun. In his case it might be hard to justify spending his pres on something that was so much less expensive and arguably more powerful in NS1. Especially when pretty soon bile bomb will be out and all those mines will just go up in smoke.
The whole situation just isn't good RTS design (not to say I don't heavily respect Flayra, he's done some incredibly brilliant things with the RTS design of NS2) there's a thing, you invest in it at one phase in the game because you pretty much need to (if you're good) and then in the late game you never invest in it ever at all any more. It would be nice if I could still buy mines at the 25 minute mark and not feel like I've wasted my res and time. It would be nice if I didn't feel like I desperately NEEDED mines in the early game, if there was some alternate choice that was actually viable. Neither of those is the case. I'm not complaining that "mines are overpowered" or "mines are under powered" I'm complaining that their role in the game right now is 1 dimensional and boring, and that a lot could be improved in the way they work in the game.
you are correct that they taper off in the mid to lategame, but I don't see any proposed solution working.
1) mines later in the tech path - early game marines get ruined by Skulks 2) mines scale with damage upgrades - late game Skulks slightly more useful than a piece of string 3) more mines - spammier gameplay, doesn't change anything as far as their usefulness lategame
as PsympleJester said, marines don't really have anything else to spend their money on, so it's almost a no-brainer to get mines.
is this a fault of the mines or a fault of the PRES system?
<!--quoteo(post=2043786:date=Dec 11 2012, 12:04 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Dec 11 2012, 12:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043786"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->is this a fault of the mines or a fault of the PRES system?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fault of Marines not having anything to spend their pres on mid-game. There's no drawback to blowing all your pres early on mines because there's nothing worthwhile to buy later.
<!--quoteo(post=2043786:date=Dec 11 2012, 04:04 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Dec 11 2012, 04:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043786"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you are correct that they taper off in the mid to lategame, but I don't see any proposed solution working.
1) mines later in the tech path - early game marines get ruined by Skulks 2) mines scale with damage upgrades - late game Skulks slightly more useful than a piece of string 3) more mines - spammier gameplay, doesn't change anything as far as their usefulness lategame
as PsympleJester said, marines don't really have anything else to spend their money on, so it's almost a no-brainer to get mines.
is this a fault of the mines or a fault of the PRES system?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well for starters, Mines do Light damage currently so they are artificially weakened against all higher lifeforms. Not really clear why that was done.
<!--quoteo(post=2043812:date=Dec 11 2012, 12:22 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Dec 11 2012, 12:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well for starters, Mines do Light damage currently so they are artificially weakened against all higher lifeforms. Not really clear why that was done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To prevent them from killing Cara Skulks, I guess.
<!--quoteo(post=2043812:date=Dec 11 2012, 12:22 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Dec 11 2012, 12:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well for starters, Mines do Light damage currently so they are artificially weakened against all higher lifeforms. Not really clear why that was done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> why shouldn't they be, though? static defense shouldn't necessarily be viable against every lifeform
<!--quoteo(post=2043834:date=Dec 11 2012, 12:37 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Dec 11 2012, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043834"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why shouldn't they be, though? static defense shouldn't necessarily be viable against every lifeform<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hydras were buffed to Medium-type damage because it wasn't as viable against a2/3 Marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2043903:date=Dec 11 2012, 01:37 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Dec 11 2012, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hydras were buffed to Medium-type damage because it wasn't as viable against a2/3 Marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> "as viable" is fine. making mines effective against every lifeform would mean they can only be cleared safely by Bile Bomb and Spikes... that's a little more than viable :P
<!--quoteo(post=2043076:date=Dec 10 2012, 02:30 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Dec 10 2012, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043076"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mines are not, and can not, break the metagame.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Strictly speaking "breaking the metagame" is impossible. What I mean is that the current metagame has revealed that the design of mines is abusable and puts them in a one dimensional and boring place in the game. Indirectly what I mean by "breaking the metagame" is the metagame is more shallow now, because you don't choose weather to get mines or not get mines, you just always get mines because they're part of the most effective build order. Mines should be a metagame thing. If you predict your opponent is going to commit offensively, you drop mines and make their offensive less viable, if you predict your opponent is going to play defensively, you skip mines and save res for more important things later on. That would be the ideal scenario, but currently that is not the case, it's almost unimaginable in the current version of NS2 for it to be worse to rush mines in the early game than to not rush mines in the early game.
Exactly how many mines marines should buy and drop on the floor is still up for debate... but you fundamentally you do not choose between "get mines" and "not get mines" if you are optimizing your game. You only choose between weather you drop 12 mines (for example) or 20 mines. It's not a real strategical variation.
<!--quoteo(post=2043786:date=Dec 11 2012, 03:04 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Dec 11 2012, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043786"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you are correct that they taper off in the mid to lategame, but I don't see any proposed solution working.
1) mines later in the tech path - early game marines get ruined by Skulks 2) mines scale with damage upgrades - late game Skulks slightly more useful than a piece of string 3) more mines - spammier gameplay, doesn't change anything as far as their usefulness lategame
as PsympleJester said, marines don't really have anything else to spend their money on, so it's almost a no-brainer to get mines.
is this a fault of the mines or a fault of the PRES system?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's the fault of both, plus the fault of the game mechanics currently not having other viable res sinks to choose from.
Mines should be more of a viable choice all game long. Pres system needs to balance out better early game vs late game. There need to be other strategic paths at any given point in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2043924:date=Dec 11 2012, 05:02 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Dec 11 2012, 05:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What metagame? lol. The lack of any significant strategic depth to NS 2 makes it pretty much absent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming</a>
In essence, the choices you make within the game based on predicting what choices your opponent will make.
I partly agree with you, but there's lose threads to pull in terms of strategic options. Just not very many, and not very interesting ones.
Fades and Oni are the only creatures who can't detonate mines from range and both have so much armour that running over them is the equivilant of stepping on a stone on a sandy beach. Big f'ing deal.
If you're having trouble with mines use alien vision and avoid where they're being used or chuck a couple parasites into them. If the power node is mined, attack the phase gate, if the PG is mined attack the obs, so on and so forth. Marines can't plaster mines everywhere at any point in the game unless they enjoy running LMG constantly.
<!--quoteo(post=2043920:date=Dec 11 2012, 03:59 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 11 2012, 03:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Strictly speaking "breaking the metagame" is impossible. What I mean is that the current metagame has revealed that the design of mines is abusable and puts them in a one dimensional and boring place in the game. Indirectly what I mean by "breaking the metagame" is the metagame is more shallow now, because you don't choose weather to get mines or not get mines, you just always get mines because they're part of the most effective build order. Mines should be a metagame thing. If you predict your opponent is going to commit offensively, you drop mines and make their offensive less viable, if you predict your opponent is going to play defensively, you skip mines and save res for more important things later on. That would be the ideal scenario, but currently that is not the case, it's almost unimaginable in the current version of NS2 for it to be worse to rush mines in the early game than to not rush mines in the early game.
Exactly how many mines marines should buy and drop on the floor is still up for debate... but you fundamentally you do not choose between "get mines" and "not get mines" if you are optimizing your game. You only choose between weather you drop 12 mines (for example) or 20 mines. It's not a real strategical variation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now this is a reasonable concern about the state of NS2. I've previously proposed making Welders and Mines much more expensive but reducing their research time to instant. Would it be better if mines were a significant Tres investment, but quick enough that they could be reactionary? Say 25 Tres to research, 10 pres for a stack of 3?
Personally, my team tends to not research mines that often, but I feel like you're talking about pub play where mines are useful outside of abusing them via drop-switch-stand.
I'm fond of getting mines myself, and I like when my fellow marines get them. But I see them more as discouraging skulks from nomming on buildings, or using them to run over if an alien is nomming on me.
It sounds like people want them to be an auto kill, which I'm pretty much against in general because quite frankly that really sucks for the players that get hit by it. It doesn't feel like it takes a lot of skill for a marine to put down mines around phasegates, so it seems a bit extreme to make it auto kill skulks.
Don't think it sounds fun to make whips kill marines in one hit, or hydras guaranteed to get kills. I don't think it's much fun to be able to put something down that you can just leave that you know will do your job for you. Well actually it is fun, it's tons of fun, but it gets old for the other team.
One thing for sure. The 2nd ability skulk weapon(spore)
Its fin useless, it is retarded it takes one skulk 25? hits to destroy a mine, i sat there for a hour one day working up mines outside a base only to have a marine run by and shotgun me w hen i was almost done.
<!--quoteo(post=2043920:date=Dec 11 2012, 11:59 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 11 2012, 11:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Strictly speaking "breaking the metagame" is impossible. What I mean is that the current metagame has revealed that the design of mines is abusable and puts them in a one dimensional and boring place in the game. Indirectly what I mean by "breaking the metagame" is the metagame is more shallow now, because you don't choose weather to get mines or not get mines, you just always get mines because they're part of the most effective build order. Mines should be a metagame thing. If you predict your opponent is going to commit offensively, you drop mines and make their offensive less viable, if you predict your opponent is going to play defensively, you skip mines and save res for more important things later on. That would be the ideal scenario, but currently that is not the case, it's almost unimaginable in the current version of NS2 for it to be worse to rush mines in the early game than to not rush mines in the early game.
Exactly how many mines marines should buy and drop on the floor is still up for debate... but you fundamentally you do not choose between "get mines" and "not get mines" if you are optimizing your game. You only choose between weather you drop 12 mines (for example) or 20 mines. It's not a real strategical variation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a pretty accurate assesment of the issue. Lack of options makes going mines a no brainer, and mines force alien play down certain paths (more defensive, passive, longer games, etc.) which affects the game as a whole. The resonation from that one early game "decision" ripples throughout the game, and it's a big issue imo, especially in competitive play. Generally I feel that there are bigger things to balance out, but somehow fixing this issue is one thing to do.
Mines are trash. They barely do any damage, are easily spotted, and are set off by infestation. Most of the time they go off on a skulk, and no matter which way you slice it 5res equivalent for maybe a skulk kill isn't worth it until late game when your team is just rolling in res.
<!--quoteo(post=2042801:date=Dec 10 2012, 01:57 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 10 2012, 01:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042801"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mines can be researched pretty much instantly in NS2, withing the first 2 minutes for sure. With a good commander, and pres, marines are aware mines are available as soon as they are done, and suddenly, the whole point of skulk harass is SIGNIFIGNATLY reduced. If Zerg in Star Craft 2 is any indication, skulk harass is that one thing that aliens need to be viable in NS2. If skulks can't exploit their mobility advantage they might as well not exist.
I don't really favor a change that puts mines later in the tech path... maybe making mines AA would work, but it would also require you to get a lot more of them per the dollar spent, as bilebomb and lerk spike pretty much makes them not a thing anymore. But in the early game mines are abusably overpowered. I feel like the game would be more fun if it didn't take skulks a solid minute of spiking to take down a single mine they already know is there.
I think in competitive matches we're going to start seeing shift hive first dominate simply because it allows skulks to dry fire mines without being damaged via an incredibly convoluted and unintuitive system of setting them off at their side and running away before they det. Personally, I find that a pretty silly reason to go shift first every game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem, and benefit to mines is that while they are 100% effective when triggered, if they are not, or placed stupidly, they are a massive res waste and 0% effective. If skulks are dying to mines, then they are not paying attention and deserve to die. If they entire marine team is spamming mines ERRYDAY, then they have less res to one shot 5-6 skulks back to back with a shotgun. I like them as-is, sorry. I also have to agree with resea.
<!--quoteo(post=2052887:date=Dec 29 2012, 11:12 AM:name=Tova)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tova @ Dec 29 2012, 11:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052887"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mines are trash. They barely do any damage, are easily spotted, and are set off by infestation. Most of the time they go off on a skulk, and no matter which way you slice it 5res equivalent for maybe a skulk kill isn't worth it until late game when your team is just rolling in res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> you are really bad if you think mines are trash. how many hours do you have in the game?
<!--quoteo(post=2052891:date=Dec 29 2012, 11:17 AM:name=IAMKING)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IAMKING @ Dec 29 2012, 11:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052891"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you are really bad if you think mines are trash. how many hours do you have in the game?
they are incredibly powerful<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please elaborate, I'm completely open to your advice and commentary. Don't just tell me they are "incredibly powerful," explain: How do you use them? Where do you typically place them? What kind of damage are you hoping to do with them? Are you getting a reasonable trade for the resources spent?
<!--quoteo(post=2042965:date=Dec 10 2012, 09:26 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Dec 10 2012, 09:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They have no mid-game gear. A couple guys get a Shotgun at the beginning and you just recycle those until the end of the game. The only additional investment to be made is the 10 pres jetpack and 5 pres Welder.
As an Alien, I can never have enough pres. As a Marine, I always have way too much pres. Needs more HMG or an equivalent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe an option to upgrade your AR for Marines through Proto Lab. Nothing too crazy but still enough to make warrant a choice, like bigger clips (60 instead of 50) or faster reloads or something.
I don't see the issue with Mines unless someone has figured out an easy way to cover the ceiling.
First just use the ceiling or walls to move and harass.
If you're harassing the marine base try to jump from structure to structure.
If mines are everywhere in the Marine base you simply position to see a mine as a skulk and while it takes time you can fire about 5-7 parasite darts off and trigger the mine from a distance (Yes Mines take projectile damage and have health).
If they are such an issue maybe simply pushing the cost Pres wise up to that of the shotgun would fix the metagame issue ?
Mines have 80 hp and 10 armor. Parasite deals 10 normal damage (aka half damage to armor). That means mines take 10 parasites to destroy from a skulk. You get off 2-3 with a full energy bar.
It probably takes a skulk 15 or 20 seconds to parasite a mine down. It's never worth it to spend your time doing this.
Comments
In order for marines to push, marines have to leave the base.
The Aliens don't need to do that. All the aliens can constantly harass the base while the commander can build all the structures him self
This makes marines limited in how much they can build.
Mines slow down harassement while they can expand, and get resource with a temporary defense early game
Where Alien commander has it easy and can expand without needing any alien to help build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, I agree with you, mines perform a very valuable role in NS2. So how does that discredit that mines are too powerful in the early game and too weak in the late game? And how does it indicate that this is not a problem that could be worked on?
I don't want to make out like this is the most pressing balance concern in NS2 right now, but I think it's a real issue.
MaximumSquid: You can set off mines without taking damage with celerity. I think the metagame is more likely to move in the direction of that being the dominant address for harass skulks dealing with mines, which I also really don't like, because it's an absurd knifes edge thing that new players would have a really hard time figuring out.
The '10 res for 4' mines was perfect. Cost res, but you got a return on that investment. Consider how many kills you can get with a 20 res shottie? The mines only offer a <b>*FINITE*</b> number of<b> *POTENTIAL*</b> kills. Once carapace is in place a single mine won't kill a skulk. Furthermore they don't stack, despite those people who still insist on placing then near one another.
What aliens need to learn to do is work in tandem pairs. I'll often group with another skulk, and I'll go in to suicide clear a mine or two so he can followup with the building or power node destruction. Not hard. Mines are about as powerful as a sentry nest - and I think those cost too much right now for how weak they are.
Another thing: Do mines profit from weapon upgrades? If not, why?
And finally, the cost of mines in ns1 was even less than 10 res because of RFK. Which means if you killed something with your mines, you got a return on your investment. You dont have that right now which makes them even more expensive.
Yeah, let's buff an already overpowered-in-early-game item by 100%. Great idea. Let's allow 5 marines to drop 40 mines at the start of the game. That'll be balanced. /s
Hydra vs Mine = Mine wins.
I would also say that bile bomb shouldn't hard counter them then, maybe take 2 or 3 splashes to set them off.
But hell, that's just me...
The '10 res for 4' mines was perfect. Cost res, but you got a return on that investment. Consider how many kills you can get with a 20 res shottie? The mines only offer a <b>*FINITE*</b> number of<b> *POTENTIAL*</b> kills. Once carapace is in place a single mine won't kill a skulk. Furthermore they don't stack, despite those people who still insist on placing then near one another.
What aliens need to learn to do is work in tandem pairs. I'll often group with another skulk, and I'll go in to suicide clear a mine or two so he can followup with the building or power node destruction. Not hard. Mines are about as powerful as a sentry nest - and I think those cost too much right now for how weak they are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, this is the thing, there are no 2 sides. That's what's really frustrating about this, if I make this thread, and I explain the issue thoroughly, I get a bunch of posts that say "mines are too weak!" and "no, mines are too powerful!"
Both are right. There's a very very good reason why mines are rushed in the early game of every competitive match. Simply put, for the pres you spend on them, and the fact that the shotgun is negligibly superior to the AR against skulks, mines are just the obvious choice. And they make the game MISERABLE for early game aliens. This even works well in pubs if you care to try it some time.
But then, time ticks on, and lerks come out, and bile bomb comes out, and onos and fades start running around your base... and all of a sudden if you put down a mine pack you're overwhelmingly lucky to get any investment return on it at all. Well, it looks like mines are underpowered, they're just not useful any more!
To the competitive player right now, you can't sacrifice the early game advantage mines provide to save for an exo. Exo's are silly, MORE than hard to make useful when your opponents know what they're doing, and generally not very high skill. Additionally, jetpacks are dirt cheap, and BRUTALLY effective when you know how to use them, and work together well, you don't need the p-res you spent on mines in the early game for anything in the late game, so you really haven't sacrificed anything by spending it. Why not make an investment that almost always pays off when it has no real long term cost?
To the pub player, he may be saving up for an exo because he can't really be a godly murderer with a jetpack shotgun. In his case it might be hard to justify spending his pres on something that was so much less expensive and arguably more powerful in NS1. Especially when pretty soon bile bomb will be out and all those mines will just go up in smoke.
The whole situation just isn't good RTS design (not to say I don't heavily respect Flayra, he's done some incredibly brilliant things with the RTS design of NS2) there's a thing, you invest in it at one phase in the game because you pretty much need to (if you're good) and then in the late game you never invest in it ever at all any more. It would be nice if I could still buy mines at the 25 minute mark and not feel like I've wasted my res and time. It would be nice if I didn't feel like I desperately NEEDED mines in the early game, if there was some alternate choice that was actually viable. Neither of those is the case. I'm not complaining that "mines are overpowered" or "mines are under powered" I'm complaining that their role in the game right now is 1 dimensional and boring, and that a lot could be improved in the way they work in the game.
1) mines later in the tech path - early game marines get ruined by Skulks
2) mines scale with damage upgrades - late game Skulks slightly more useful than a piece of string
3) more mines - spammier gameplay, doesn't change anything as far as their usefulness lategame
as PsympleJester said, marines don't really have anything else to spend their money on, so it's almost a no-brainer to get mines.
is this a fault of the mines or a fault of the PRES system?
Fault of Marines not having anything to spend their pres on mid-game. There's no drawback to blowing all your pres early on mines because there's nothing worthwhile to buy later.
1) mines later in the tech path - early game marines get ruined by Skulks
2) mines scale with damage upgrades - late game Skulks slightly more useful than a piece of string
3) more mines - spammier gameplay, doesn't change anything as far as their usefulness lategame
as PsympleJester said, marines don't really have anything else to spend their money on, so it's almost a no-brainer to get mines.
is this a fault of the mines or a fault of the PRES system?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well for starters, Mines do Light damage currently so they are artificially weakened against all higher lifeforms. Not really clear why that was done.
To prevent them from killing Cara Skulks, I guess.
why shouldn't they be, though? static defense shouldn't necessarily be viable against every lifeform
Hydras were buffed to Medium-type damage because it wasn't as viable against a2/3 Marines.
"as viable" is fine. making mines effective against every lifeform would mean they can only be cleared safely by Bile Bomb and Spikes... that's a little more than viable :P
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Strictly speaking "breaking the metagame" is impossible. What I mean is that the current metagame has revealed that the design of mines is abusable and puts them in a one dimensional and boring place in the game. Indirectly what I mean by "breaking the metagame" is the metagame is more shallow now, because you don't choose weather to get mines or not get mines, you just always get mines because they're part of the most effective build order. Mines should be a metagame thing. If you predict your opponent is going to commit offensively, you drop mines and make their offensive less viable, if you predict your opponent is going to play defensively, you skip mines and save res for more important things later on. That would be the ideal scenario, but currently that is not the case, it's almost unimaginable in the current version of NS2 for it to be worse to rush mines in the early game than to not rush mines in the early game.
Exactly how many mines marines should buy and drop on the floor is still up for debate... but you fundamentally you do not choose between "get mines" and "not get mines" if you are optimizing your game. You only choose between weather you drop 12 mines (for example) or 20 mines. It's not a real strategical variation.
1) mines later in the tech path - early game marines get ruined by Skulks
2) mines scale with damage upgrades - late game Skulks slightly more useful than a piece of string
3) more mines - spammier gameplay, doesn't change anything as far as their usefulness lategame
as PsympleJester said, marines don't really have anything else to spend their money on, so it's almost a no-brainer to get mines.
is this a fault of the mines or a fault of the PRES system?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's the fault of both, plus the fault of the game mechanics currently not having other viable res sinks to choose from.
Mines should be more of a viable choice all game long.
Pres system needs to balance out better early game vs late game.
There need to be other strategic paths at any given point in the game.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming</a>
In essence, the choices you make within the game based on predicting what choices your opponent will make.
I partly agree with you, but there's lose threads to pull in terms of strategic options. Just not very many, and not very interesting ones.
If you're having trouble with mines use alien vision and avoid where they're being used or chuck a couple parasites into them. If the power node is mined, attack the phase gate, if the PG is mined attack the obs, so on and so forth. Marines can't plaster mines everywhere at any point in the game unless they enjoy running LMG constantly.
Exactly how many mines marines should buy and drop on the floor is still up for debate... but you fundamentally you do not choose between "get mines" and "not get mines" if you are optimizing your game. You only choose between weather you drop 12 mines (for example) or 20 mines. It's not a real strategical variation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now this is a reasonable concern about the state of NS2. I've previously proposed making Welders and Mines much more expensive but reducing their research time to instant. Would it be better if mines were a significant Tres investment, but quick enough that they could be reactionary? Say 25 Tres to research, 10 pres for a stack of 3?
Personally, my team tends to not research mines that often, but I feel like you're talking about pub play where mines are useful outside of abusing them via drop-switch-stand.
It sounds like people want them to be an auto kill, which I'm pretty much against in general because quite frankly that really sucks for the players that get hit by it. It doesn't feel like it takes a lot of skill for a marine to put down mines around phasegates, so it seems a bit extreme to make it auto kill skulks.
Don't think it sounds fun to make whips kill marines in one hit, or hydras guaranteed to get kills. I don't think it's much fun to be able to put something down that you can just leave that you know will do your job for you. Well actually it is fun, it's tons of fun, but it gets old for the other team.
The 2nd ability skulk weapon(spore)
Its fin useless, it is retarded it takes one skulk 25? hits to destroy a mine, i sat there for a hour one day working up mines outside a base only to have a marine run by and shotgun me w hen i was almost done.
Exactly how many mines marines should buy and drop on the floor is still up for debate... but you fundamentally you do not choose between "get mines" and "not get mines" if you are optimizing your game. You only choose between weather you drop 12 mines (for example) or 20 mines. It's not a real strategical variation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a pretty accurate assesment of the issue. Lack of options makes going mines a no brainer, and mines force alien play down certain paths (more defensive, passive, longer games, etc.) which affects the game as a whole. The resonation from that one early game "decision" ripples throughout the game, and it's a big issue imo, especially in competitive play. Generally I feel that there are bigger things to balance out, but somehow fixing this issue is one thing to do.
I don't really favor a change that puts mines later in the tech path... maybe making mines AA would work, but it would also require you to get a lot more of them per the dollar spent, as bilebomb and lerk spike pretty much makes them not a thing anymore. But in the early game mines are abusably overpowered. I feel like the game would be more fun if it didn't take skulks a solid minute of spiking to take down a single mine they already know is there.
I think in competitive matches we're going to start seeing shift hive first dominate simply because it allows skulks to dry fire mines without being damaged via an incredibly convoluted and unintuitive system of setting them off at their side and running away before they det. Personally, I find that a pretty silly reason to go shift first every game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem, and benefit to mines is that while they are 100% effective when triggered, if they are not, or placed stupidly, they are a massive res waste and 0% effective. If skulks are dying to mines, then they are not paying attention and deserve to die. If they entire marine team is spamming mines ERRYDAY, then they have less res to one shot 5-6 skulks back to back with a shotgun. I like them as-is, sorry. I also have to agree with resea.
you are really bad if you think mines are trash. how many hours do you have in the game?
they are incredibly powerful
they are incredibly powerful<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please elaborate, I'm completely open to your advice and commentary. Don't just tell me they are "incredibly powerful," explain: How do you use them? Where do you typically place them? What kind of damage are you hoping to do with them? Are you getting a reasonable trade for the resources spent?
As an Alien, I can never have enough pres. As a Marine, I always have way too much pres. Needs more HMG or an equivalent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe an option to upgrade your AR for Marines through Proto Lab. Nothing too crazy but still enough to make warrant a choice, like bigger clips (60 instead of 50) or faster reloads or something.
First just use the ceiling or walls to move and harass.
If you're harassing the marine base try to jump from structure to structure.
If mines are everywhere in the Marine base you simply position to see a mine as a skulk and while it takes time you can fire about 5-7 parasite darts off and trigger the mine from a distance (Yes Mines take projectile damage and have health).
If they are such an issue maybe simply pushing the cost Pres wise up to that of the shotgun would fix the metagame issue ?
It probably takes a skulk 15 or 20 seconds to parasite a mine down. It's never worth it to spend your time doing this.
p.s. necro'd thread....