Mines are breaking the metagame
Swiftspear
Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
Mines can be researched pretty much instantly in NS2, withing the first 2 minutes for sure. With a good commander, and pres, marines are aware mines are available as soon as they are done, and suddenly, the whole point of skulk harass is SIGNIFIGNATLY reduced. If Zerg in Star Craft 2 is any indication, skulk harass is that one thing that aliens need to be viable in NS2. If skulks can't exploit their mobility advantage they might as well not exist.
I don't really favor a change that puts mines later in the tech path... maybe making mines AA would work, but it would also require you to get a lot more of them per the dollar spent, as bilebomb and lerk spike pretty much makes them not a thing anymore. But in the early game mines are abusably overpowered. I feel like the game would be more fun if it didn't take skulks a solid minute of spiking to take down a single mine they already know is there.
I think in competitive matches we're going to start seeing shift hive first dominate simply because it allows skulks to dry fire mines without being damaged via an incredibly convoluted and unintuitive system of setting them off at their side and running away before they det. Personally, I find that a pretty silly reason to go shift first every game.
I don't really favor a change that puts mines later in the tech path... maybe making mines AA would work, but it would also require you to get a lot more of them per the dollar spent, as bilebomb and lerk spike pretty much makes them not a thing anymore. But in the early game mines are abusably overpowered. I feel like the game would be more fun if it didn't take skulks a solid minute of spiking to take down a single mine they already know is there.
I think in competitive matches we're going to start seeing shift hive first dominate simply because it allows skulks to dry fire mines without being damaged via an incredibly convoluted and unintuitive system of setting them off at their side and running away before they det. Personally, I find that a pretty silly reason to go shift first every game.
Comments
I made a thread in I&S about mines: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125700" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=125700</a>
I think they are underpowered for the reasons I lay out there.
I understand we'll simply have to agree to disagree on this issue though.
Even if mines were slightly OP, the last thing marines need right now is a nerf.
Mines needed- 15 ress is a lot, and in the first 2min that can totally mess up your game (later SG's). Once base rushing has more risk, then mines can talk about - though IMO there fine right now.....
I hate how people don't think to balance things based on timing, if you think mines are a little too good early game - and weak late game just:
change research to 20ress (and take an extra 10ticks)
give a late game upgrade to mines on the prototype lab
Sometimes mines are the only way to stop skulk base rushes, and mines are already gimped enough that a good skulk can avoid them. No change necessary or wanted.
They cost enough not to be spammed, are in a good place as far as damage goes, and are easily countered by lerks or gorges.
Pretty much all threads he makes (recently anyway) have been such stupid ideas they might as-well be Christmas cracker jokes.
Currently Marines need to be so damn offensive to win games mines are ESSENTIAL and that is the only reason their [boarderline]over-poweredness is not an issue... AA mines... lol... I honestly dont know what dumb idea your gonna come up with next, how about make LMGs require research and make Kharaa have to evolve bite?
Also can you please all stop using Metagame every sentence like some idiot student trying to get more marks in an essay for using technical language, its not big and its not clever and it shouldn't make people think your points are any better just because you use the M word.
If you wanna actually complain that mines ruin the Metagame follow a cohesive argument please that cannot be argued against by sheer opinion alone, how about:
Mines <b>are</b> breaking the metagame of NS2 due to <b>Marine Personal Resources</b>: The marine team requires that its players spend their Personal Resources constantly throughout the entire game for them to perform optimally throughout. (Source, Go watch a single [comp] game where a team spends 0 Pres)
However due to Shotguns/Mines/Welders being the only options for Pres early game and that Mines are a clearly superior investment of Pres it is quite obvious that Mines will be researched and used by marines on masse every single game.
How to fix: Give marines more option with their Pres or remove marine Pres.
I made a thread in I&S about mines: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125700" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=125700</a>
I think they are underpowered for the reasons I lay out there.
I understand we'll simply have to agree to disagree on this issue though.
Even if mines were slightly OP, the last thing marines need right now is a nerf.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think, at some level, we actually agree.
In NS1, you would by 4 mines for 10 res. There was several factors in place for why this would actually work. Primarily because Pres in NS1 was the same thing as Tres. There was no mechanic in which you would be flooded with a "useless" type of res at any point in the game.
In NS2, we arguably have too much pres in the early game, and as such, mines become a bit absurd. It's just SO easy to flood the map with mines in the early game, and as soon as lerks and bile bomb come out (which is earlier in the game than NS1) mines suddenly become much weaker than they were on average in NS1.
It's not specifically that mines are off, it's just that they have become abusably overpowered in the early game because of the way res mechanics have shifted, and at the same time they are under powered in the late game, because suddenly, in the mid to late game, everything but skulks can kill them very very easily while either taking no damage at all, or only taking negligible damage.
Onos and fades do not fear mines, lerks can spike enough that they easily go down, gorges can bile bomb them down without even knowing they were ever there. Cysts can take out swaths of mines without the commander even seeing them. Mines are under powered, at the same time as them being overpowered. They are VERY hard to counter in the early game while being VERY hard to to lose to in the late game.
Arguably, that's just bad design. They REALLY should be not MASSIVELY overpowered in the early game, and at the same time not totally useless in the late game. If there were some reasonable early game counter to mines, they would be much easier to balance in the late game, since they wouldn't have a point where so much they shifted from absurdly overpowered to absurdly unnecessary.
Sometimes mines are the only way to stop skulk base rushes, and mines are already gimped enough that a good skulk can avoid them. No change necessary or wanted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not a troll thread. I understand this. For a short period in the game mines are EXTREMELY powerful, and then all of a sudden bile bomb and late game evolves come out and mines suck. I'm arguing that that's a bad thing. Mines shouldn't go from the most useful thing in the game to suddenly the most useless (in my opinion). It's abusing the structure of RTS, where you almost HAVE to get something in the early game to stay viable, and all of a sudden, that early game thing you got, only hurts you, if it does anything at all.
While I perhaps wouldn't call them "massively" overpowered, this is pretty accurate. Mines suffer from the same problem as hydras currently; too powerful in the early game, too weak in the late game.
I dunno. Personally I'm better at avoiding stationery objects than I am orbital strike cannons of doom.
I actually really like this idea.
It could add an incendiary effect to the mine that adds burning damage and energy drain to the alien similar to a flamethrower. Would make them more viable lategame and could actually pose a threat to Onos and Fades as well by starving their energy and stalling their regeneration if they are catching fire.
And it would be negated again by destroying the second Command Station.
also, i think they're needed early for marines to have a decent chance. if marines can secure a couple of good phase gate positions, they're in a decent position for the mid-late game. without mines, the marines can easily become dead in the water if they lose 1-2 engagements before establishing staging areas (the mines make marines more durable and therefore less likely to die and lose a key foothold).
if mines were proved to be too strong, then i would actually prefer a change to alien respawn rate instead of mines.
Well,I partially agree.However mine pack is the only tool that can help marines take over chokepoints like Nanogrid in the early game when PG are beeing researched,so bear this in mind.
Mines are annoying but no game breaking.
VERY often I see just ONE guy (most times thats me) who is using mines -> So 4 per player would be fine.
Mines are fine. Very versatile early game and its fine that they are not used late game. Not everything needs to be usable at every stage of the game. Direct your thoughts to something that actually needs adjustment.
They will ALL BLOW UP!
Aaaah!
I remember mines being fairly unpopular during beta. . .
The reason was because Carapace was so popular
Camo is having a similar effect early mines because the skulks slow down so much and use walls <i>(and don't need to go vents)</i>
That's 2 out of 3 that your alien commander will anti up a reasonable counter to them before advanced lifeforms hit the floor
I'm also a fan of just setting off mines without dieing as a skulk and with Regen it's a win/win
Rushing 2nd Hive and Leap also counters mines like Carapace can as skulks will move too fast to get killed by one mine
Basically all you have to do is have a skulk take out 2 or 3 mines per death and mines become massively ineffective
I think if there's a problem, it's this. Why isn't marine PRes valuable? Buying tons of mines should have the inherent drawback of setting back the PRes of all those players. It's an investment in a strong early game that has repercussions in the mid/late-game. If those repercussions are a non-issue, then something is off about the value of PRes in the late game.
In case the response to this thread hasn't made it clear, pub games do not have the same problems with mines. I don't know if it's because of game size, incorrect usage, or just different perception. I suspect that the desire to save up for Exos is partly to blame. In any case, nerfing mines now will effectively remove them from the pub game completely, which I don't think would be a smart decision.
10 res jetpacks
They have no mid-game gear. A couple guys get a Shotgun at the beginning and you just recycle those until the end of the game. The only additional investment to be made is the 10 pres jetpack and 5 pres Welder.
As an Alien, I can never have enough pres. As a Marine, I always have way too much pres. Needs more HMG or an equivalent.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
But so does early game camo.
In order for marines to push, marines have to leave the base.
The Aliens don't need to do that. All the aliens can constantly harass the base while the commander can build all the structures him self
This makes marines limited in how much they can build.
Mines slow down harassement while they can expand, and get resource with a temporary defense early game
Where Alien commander has it easy and can expand without needing any alien to help build.
Mines needed- 15 ress is a lot, and in the first 2min that can totally mess up your game (later SG's). Once base rushing has more risk, then mines can talk about - though IMO there fine right now.....
I hate how people don't think to balance things based on timing, if you think mines are a little too good early game - and weak late game just:
change research to 20ress (and take an extra 10ticks)
give a late game upgrade to mines on the prototype lab<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be fine too.
This is what I don't like though. Lets keep that broken issue because we already have a broken patch in place. If mines were fixed, it would expose new issues that could also be fixed. And then you could have properly implemented mines, and a metagame that isn't one dimensional.