<!--quoteo(post=2042973:date=Dec 10 2012, 07:54 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Dec 10 2012, 07:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentries are not supposed to defend a room unsupervised, nor were they ever. This is the biggest misunderstanding most players have about them. The purpose of sentries is to support marines in a contested area. For this I think they're very useful... But the res cost is rather prohibitive. Every single thing the comm buys in NS2 has to be measured against tech of equivalent value. A 15 res robo factory, 10 res sentry battery and three 5 res sentries is equivalent to the cost of Weapons 1 & 2 combined. Each subsequent sentry pack is another upgrade right there. That's a real tough sell.
I think it would be cool for deployable sentries to be a PRes purchase. One per player. Remove them as a turtling tool for the comm, thus removing the noob trap crippling the team's economy. Give marines another fun thing to spend their PRes on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like this decision.
Scrap powercells for sentries entirely,give it to someone with better POV than a commander.
<!--quoteo(post=2042415:date=Dec 9 2012, 05:07 PM:name=ComboBreaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ComboBreaker @ Dec 9 2012, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1).Well,if the general advice is to stop using something altogether to improve, doesn't this mean that we need either buff it or alter how it works?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree on this, but nobody came up with an idea that would really work, yet. <!--quoteo(post=2042415:date=Dec 9 2012, 05:07 PM:name=ComboBreaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ComboBreaker @ Dec 9 2012, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2).This statement is completely wrong.The main objective is to kill all commader bases/all hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes. You can't have a RTS / FPS hybrid without buildings that need to be destroyed. But the main point of this sentence is NOT: "There should be no player vs buildings." The meaning of this sentence is: "We already have enough player vs building we don't need to increase this part of the game even further, because it is less fun than player vs player." <!--quoteo(post=2042415:date=Dec 9 2012, 05:07 PM:name=ComboBreaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ComboBreaker @ Dec 9 2012, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3).Now this is the most touchy topic.Sure,sentries must be underpowered,because they can autoaim and you cant really avoid it all as aliens.However,sentries job is to scare of a single skulk from a resource node,so you do not have to play Whack-a-Skulk through the whole match.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem here is, that most people don't think of the consequences. You simply can't have a mechanic, that allows you to replace man-power with an AI-unit. Because if you don't need to defend one part of the map with a player, you practically increase your man-power at the front. In the end, it is the same as if you would have 1 marine more in your team for every sentry-nest. Because every marine can now push the alien hives while aliens can't do more than simply defend.
What you call whack-a-skulk, is one advantage the aliens got in this asymmetric game. They can tactically draw forces from the front line. Sentries that can counter skulks 90% of the time would absolutely kill this advantage.
This said, you simply don't build sentries for a RT. The sentries cost more res than the RT. The only points where it is useful to place sentries are at an outpost with phase gate, so you get more time and firepower to defend it if it is attacked. Or at an outpost that is at a tactically position in the map. A location that is constantly occupied by marines attacking something and that cuts aliens off from important parts of the map.
Sentries can be useful, if used at the right time and at the right location. But they should never be able to stop an intelligent skulk alone. We had this already in beta and you can believe, that it destroyed much of the fun playing aliens.
turrets were only a problem when turtling, they never needed to be nerfed to begin with. why even add turrets to the game in their current state honestly. if a com drops turrets i refuse to build them.
Sentries + Obs + Phase hard-counters shade first builds. It's expensive, sure, but you can bet that the aliens will be hard pressed to take down your economy let alone secure a third hive if you have these sprinkled around key locations. You don't even need weapons upgrades until mid-game unless they go crag second and everything starts getting cara, but even then each downed alien will take that much longer to rejoin the fight without cele/adren, and no forward egg spawns ensures that fresh-spawned aliens at hive pushes will be one-shotted. Sentry farms cost 20 Tres on top of the robo and will only stop lone skulks until leap is researched even with optimal placement. The one real advantage that SG's have is that you can place them near a PG during a push and it will either serve to provide a "safe lane" or perhaps keep new-phased marines safe from a camping fade. Also, they do a passable job in protecting ARC's and can be recycled when the job is done.
Yes, bile makes SG farms easy targets, but by that point in the game the SG farms should only be located in tech-points anyway where marines and macs are near by to keep them up and shooting. There's no way they will stop a dedicated push, but they do help buy time. Do they contribute 20 T-res worth of firepower, not if you have them all facing the battery in a vain hope of keeping them up... but point them all at a door and keep one marine on watch and you've just secured a location sufficiently to allow most of your marines to go forward without much fear of being tech-sniped.
Pro-Tip : Early game alien comms can spam cysts in front of a SG farm to draw fire for your skulks which will buy them the time to bypass the hot zone and snipe the battery even with good placement.
Suggested changes : Pick one or more 1. Change the battery to a 10 T-res item that includes 3 SG's in the price. 2. Give SG's a 360 degree fire arc and increase their target acquisition time slightly. 3. Change SG's to a 10 P-Res item that operates off the room power with no limit per room. Spam incentives reduced by normal SG qualities like dead-zones and bile bomb vulnerability. (I'd rather have 2 SG's covering me in an area than a shotgun most of the time anyway.) 4. Prototype lab upgrades that affect SG's (change gun to GL/FT/Minigun) or improve armor/range and such. Might not be good, but might be fun anyway :)
They're rubbish. They used to be in a good spot before UWE destroyed them, they simply needed a hardcap. Instead UWE kept them relativelty nerfed, restricted their placement even within a room and capped them to only 3 all at once.
I did the face-inward thing early on too, but no more.
Now, I just have two sentries face the likely alien entrance, and another cover the battery and PG in whatever placement works. Then. have the PG be a good distance away, but FACE THE TURRETS.
Obviously there's some huge blind spot on the turrets, but skulks standing still at a distance are toast for the marines phasing in, looking right at them.
So, you have good firepower against the likely routes, and semi cover for the battery and PG, and place the pg so it covers the whole turret ordeal. That's the optimal setup imo, and it's a fantastic balancing act. 20 res seems just about right too.
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i only EVER Place sentries if i'm: 1) DESPERATE, my team sucks and cant hold anything OR If we're doing an all out bumrush and i need sentries and macs at all my bases to make sure they dont get counter-rushed 2) DURING a push, mostly with exosuits and/or arcs, i use sentries to keep skulks lerks and fades from staying in the battle for too long 3) nothing better to spend it on and boxing in aliens seems like a good idea 4) game is lost, want to try and angrify aliens so i place sentries as close to their res towers as i can with macs... >:D
Comments
I think it would be cool for deployable sentries to be a PRes purchase. One per player. Remove them as a turtling tool for the comm, thus removing the noob trap crippling the team's economy. Give marines another fun thing to spend their PRes on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this decision.
Scrap powercells for sentries entirely,give it to someone with better POV than a commander.
I agree on this, but nobody came up with an idea that would really work, yet.
<!--quoteo(post=2042415:date=Dec 9 2012, 05:07 PM:name=ComboBreaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ComboBreaker @ Dec 9 2012, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2).This statement is completely wrong.The main objective is to kill all commader bases/all hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. You can't have a RTS / FPS hybrid without buildings that need to be destroyed. But the main point of this sentence is NOT: "There should be no player vs buildings." The meaning of this sentence is: "We already have enough player vs building we don't need to increase this part of the game even further, because it is less fun than player vs player."
<!--quoteo(post=2042415:date=Dec 9 2012, 05:07 PM:name=ComboBreaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ComboBreaker @ Dec 9 2012, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3).Now this is the most touchy topic.Sure,sentries must be underpowered,because they can autoaim and you cant really avoid it all as aliens.However,sentries job is to scare of a single skulk from a resource node,so you do not have to play Whack-a-Skulk through the whole match.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem here is, that most people don't think of the consequences. You simply can't have a mechanic, that allows you to replace man-power with an AI-unit. Because if you don't need to defend one part of the map with a player, you practically increase your man-power at the front. In the end, it is the same as if you would have 1 marine more in your team for every sentry-nest. Because every marine can now push the alien hives while aliens can't do more than simply defend.
What you call whack-a-skulk, is one advantage the aliens got in this asymmetric game. They can tactically draw forces from the front line. Sentries that can counter skulks 90% of the time would absolutely kill this advantage.
This said, you simply don't build sentries for a RT. The sentries cost more res than the RT. The only points where it is useful to place sentries are at an outpost with phase gate, so you get more time and firepower to defend it if it is attacked. Or at an outpost that is at a tactically position in the map. A location that is constantly occupied by marines attacking something and that cuts aliens off from important parts of the map.
Sentries can be useful, if used at the right time and at the right location. But they should never be able to stop an intelligent skulk alone. We had this already in beta and you can believe, that it destroyed much of the fun playing aliens.
Sentry farms cost 20 Tres on top of the robo and will only stop lone skulks until leap is researched even with optimal placement. The one real advantage that SG's have is that you can place them near a PG during a push and it will either serve to provide a "safe lane" or perhaps keep new-phased marines safe from a camping fade. Also, they do a passable job in protecting ARC's and can be recycled when the job is done.
Yes, bile makes SG farms easy targets, but by that point in the game the SG farms should only be located in tech-points anyway where marines and macs are near by to keep them up and shooting. There's no way they will stop a dedicated push, but they do help buy time. Do they contribute 20 T-res worth of firepower, not if you have them all facing the battery in a vain hope of keeping them up... but point them all at a door and keep one marine on watch and you've just secured a location sufficiently to allow most of your marines to go forward without much fear of being tech-sniped.
Pro-Tip : Early game alien comms can spam cysts in front of a SG farm to draw fire for your skulks which will buy them the time to bypass the hot zone and snipe the battery even with good placement.
Suggested changes : Pick one or more
1. Change the battery to a 10 T-res item that includes 3 SG's in the price.
2. Give SG's a 360 degree fire arc and increase their target acquisition time slightly.
3. Change SG's to a 10 P-Res item that operates off the room power with no limit per room. Spam incentives reduced by normal SG qualities like dead-zones and bile bomb vulnerability. (I'd rather have 2 SG's covering me in an area than a shotgun most of the time anyway.)
4. Prototype lab upgrades that affect SG's (change gun to GL/FT/Minigun) or improve armor/range and such. Might not be good, but might be fun anyway :)
UWE balancing.
Now, I just have two sentries face the likely alien entrance, and another cover the battery and PG in whatever placement works. Then. have the PG be a good distance away, but FACE THE TURRETS.
Obviously there's some huge blind spot on the turrets, but skulks standing still at a distance are toast for the marines phasing in, looking right at them.
So, you have good firepower against the likely routes, and semi cover for the battery and PG, and place the pg so it covers the whole turret ordeal. That's the optimal setup imo, and it's a fantastic balancing act. 20 res seems just about right too.
Robotics factory would still be built even if it's just for macs.
Without the robo factory investment it would be much more tempting to build sentries for what they're meant to do, ie: helping the offensive.
1) DESPERATE, my team sucks and cant hold anything OR If we're doing an all out bumrush and i need sentries and macs at all my bases to make sure they dont get counter-rushed
2) DURING a push, mostly with exosuits and/or arcs, i use sentries to keep skulks lerks and fades from staying in the battle for too long
3) nothing better to spend it on and boxing in aliens seems like a good idea
4) game is lost, want to try and angrify aliens so i place sentries as close to their res towers as i can with macs... >:D