Sentries
ComboBreaker
Join Date: 2012-11-22 Member: 172856Members
Join Date: 2012-11-22 Member: 172856Members
<div class="IPBDescription">and their role</div>I've seen people say three things about sentries in general :
-Good comm relies on players and team organisation and skips sentries anyway since they are a waste of resources and a nooby comm trap.
-This game is not about Players VS Buildings!Even developers state this!
-Nothing non player controlled should be effective on its own
1).Well,if the general advice is to stop using something altogether to improve, doesn't this mean that we need either buff it or alter how it works?
2).This statement is completely wrong.The main objective is to kill all commader bases/all hives.
3).Now this is the most touchy topic.Sure,sentries must be underpowered,because they can autoaim and you cant really avoid it all as aliens.However,sentries job is to scare of a single skulk from a resource node,so you do not have to play Whack-a-Skulk through the whole match.
What can be done to make sentries do their job properly while keeping them ineffective for last base turtling?
-Keep it maximum of 3 sentries per room.
-Sentries are powered by a powernode OR sentry powerblock.This way,you can place sentries anywhere in the room creating more effective killzone,but if the power goes down they stop working like all buildings.You can counter it by placing powerblockes near each sentry to ensure it will be on , even after power off.Destroying powerblock while powernodes is online does not affect sentry.
-Sentries can shoot through other buildings but with reduced damage.
These changes will shutdown those annoying single skulk-lerk resource hunters,but your defences will still melt against a coordinated push when defences are unsupported by players-marines.
-Good comm relies on players and team organisation and skips sentries anyway since they are a waste of resources and a nooby comm trap.
-This game is not about Players VS Buildings!Even developers state this!
-Nothing non player controlled should be effective on its own
1).Well,if the general advice is to stop using something altogether to improve, doesn't this mean that we need either buff it or alter how it works?
2).This statement is completely wrong.The main objective is to kill all commader bases/all hives.
3).Now this is the most touchy topic.Sure,sentries must be underpowered,because they can autoaim and you cant really avoid it all as aliens.However,sentries job is to scare of a single skulk from a resource node,so you do not have to play Whack-a-Skulk through the whole match.
What can be done to make sentries do their job properly while keeping them ineffective for last base turtling?
-Keep it maximum of 3 sentries per room.
-Sentries are powered by a powernode OR sentry powerblock.This way,you can place sentries anywhere in the room creating more effective killzone,but if the power goes down they stop working like all buildings.You can counter it by placing powerblockes near each sentry to ensure it will be on , even after power off.Destroying powerblock while powernodes is online does not affect sentry.
-Sentries can shoot through other buildings but with reduced damage.
These changes will shutdown those annoying single skulk-lerk resource hunters,but your defences will still melt against a coordinated push when defences are unsupported by players-marines.
Comments
Sentries should only be a minor time consumer for a skulk. I set them up right near the power or near something important that a skulk would want to chew on. The only goal of them is to slow the skulk down enough to get a marine there to kill it, unless the skulk is kinda dumb and dies to it.
Sentries starting firing have a audio warning, power nodes being attacked dont... Funny huh.
The only useful purpose they serve is as static short range fire support for defending marines. Using them as anything else is a waste of res.
Also, for some reason unknown to me, they do structural damage. What?
I just really wish the robotics lab had a 2 comm chair requirement to prevent building it first.
I dont think that sentries should belong to a late game as a "recource dump".Marines currently have trouble defending their recource harvesters and sentries could help with that.
First they are very hard to position without blind spots. I think only 1 out of every 10 sentry nests I have been unable to kill my target (or the sentry/battery itself) because of poor LOS. It's not the comm's fault though, since positioning is tricky at best, and the range from the battery is very small. That means they can't surround what they are protecting. As such, there is one side shielded, and that makes my job easy.
Then you have the fact that I can go gorge and with a few bile bombs can wipe out the sentries and the battery in 10 seconds. My 10 res lifeform easily destroys their 25 res defensive structures. Which enables me (or my teammates) to take out other structures. It ends up that you need a marine to DEFEND the sentries. Here I thought the sentries were supposed to provide defence, and not need defence. Sometimes a comm will send a mac to keep the sentries repaired, then I lawl while a couple bile bombs kills the mac and the sentry nest with ease. Should marines arrive, I belly slide away and laugh.
Late game is even worse for sentry nests, since lerks make easy work of killing the sentry battery from range.
As for damage, unless you actually sit in front of the muzzle of the sentry, it does less damage than an UN-upgraded LMG. 'Gattling gun' on the sentry? LOL. Pea-shooter is more like it. They remind me of the level 1 sentries (not the mini) in TF2. Low damage and easy to kill.
So I advise all comms I play with to avoid wasting res on sentry nests. Unless you are drowning in res, they are a waste of money at the best of times.
Don't just use damage and res calculations: Sentry can put pressure and therefore stress on an alien player. Its only natural that most skulks do not attack a base without hesitation when some sentry's are deployed. Sentry's = Stress = less frequent attacks from 1-2 skulks!
There are many Commanders out there who underestimate this effect -even though its easy to observe.
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Then you have the fact that I can go gorge and with a few bile bombs can wipe out the sentries and the battery in 10 seconds.
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As for damage, unless you actually sit in front of the muzzle of the sentry, it does less damage than an UN-upgraded LMG. 'Gattling gun' on the sentry? LOL. Pea-shooter is more like it. They remind me of the level 1 sentries (not the mini) in TF2. Low damage and easy to kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1).Fixed with sentry not beeing dependant on sentry powercell.Placing 3 sentries in different corners of the room would create better LOS.
2).Gorge's ability comes with 2nd hive.By this time marine can get phasegates and become more mobile and thus able to defend from ninja skulks better.Im talking about early - mid game sentry usage.
3).On the other hand <u>they never miss</u>.If they could be placed in a better way you would be under constant fire when attacking anything and thus a single skulk would get fend of.
<!--quoteo(post=2042468:date=Dec 9 2012, 07:59 PM:name=no_idea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (no_idea @ Dec 9 2012, 07:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042468"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't just use damage and res calculations: Sentry can put pressure and therefore stress on an alien player. Its only natural that most skulks do not attack a base without hesitation when some sentry's are deployed. Sentry's = Stress = less frequent attacks from 1-2 skulks!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no stress when I approach sentry nest as a skulk.I can hide behind any building,chomp it and jump onto other.Sometimes it is possible to chomp onto sentry powercell.Presure?Stress?Pfft.
We need a reliable way of fending of 1(!) skulk from res node for a sensible price at the beginning of the game.Thats it.
Quite often the battery will go down to a single skulk/lerk/gorge but in that time it gives marines a chance to respond and get through the phase gate. Without the sentries, the aliens usually go straight for the phase and it could be taken out before you get a chance to respond. Then you risk losing the whole base depending on how far on foot it is.
Also sentries are just meant as a temporary blocker. They stall skulks and non bile gorges. Against anything else they are quite useless.
Whip you need infestation - but still I don't feel it balanced out.
Though personally my only issue is you can hydra and whip anywhere you want, as much as you want per room.
the 3 hydras (from 1 gorge) do less damage than sentries and whips stop working when the creep is removed from under them
Also sentries are just meant as a temporary blocker. They stall skulks and non bile gorges. Against anything else they are quite useless.
Whip you need infestation - but still I don't feel it balanced out.
Though personally my only issue is you can hydra and whip anywhere you want, as much as you want per room.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a limit to how many entities (total number of structures) in one room. I know from 20+ whip rushes and hardcore crag farms
Marines have nothing to hold down an important room. The current sentries are a joke.
Most arguments are pretty easy to see from both sides, but I really don't see how any sane individual who is well versed with NS2 could possible think sentries are over-powered.
They would be wrong, possibly the wrongist of the wrong to ever wrong the seven wrongs.
They would be wrong, possibly the wrongist of the wrong to ever wrong the seven wrongs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just saying I've heard complaints about pretty much everything in this game now. IMO they could benefit from Power Packs or maybe no longer make the battery reliant on the power node, but if that were the case then I would personally bump the Robotics Factory to Tier 2.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2).Gorge's ability comes with 2nd hive.By this time marine can get phasegates and become more mobile and thus able to defend from ninja skulks better.Im talking about early - mid game sentry usage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I can have a sentry nest gone before marines can save it, <b>**regardless**</b> of whether they phase in. Unless a marine is actually standing there with a welder out (and not shooting at me) the sentry nest is gone.
As it stands a sentry has 100 armor, which takes 0.66 seconds to remove. Then you have the 500 health, which is gone in 6.66 seconds. Time to death for sentry from bile? 7.33 seconds. The battery has 200 armor which will take 1.33 seconds to strip, and the 600 health is gone in 8 seconds. Time to death for sentry from bile? 9.33 seconds.
Since bile lasts for 5 seconds this means you only need to connect with TWO bile bombs. In only **10** seconds, that sentry nest is gone. Like I said, once the first 5 seconds have passed and I hit the nest with the second bile bomb, they won't be able to save it. They can kiss it goodbye unless they come pouring out of the phase gate with welders out, which in 19 times out of 20 they are aiming at me while I dance around and belly slide away. Meanwhile the sentry nest corrodes into dust.
How do you fix this? You make bile hit for a PERCENTAGE of the target's armor per second instead of a flat 70 DPS to health and 150 DPS to armor. I'd say 5% per second for armor and 2% per second for health.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3).On the other hand <u>they never miss</u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually, they do. Spores interfere with targeting for sentries.
<!--quoteo(post=2042468:date=Dec 9 2012, 01:59 PM:name=no_idea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (no_idea @ Dec 9 2012, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042468"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentry's = Stress = less frequent attacks from 1-2 skulks!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Maybe with new players, but not with anyone who has played a while. For me a sentry nest is like a puzzle. I take a few seconds and pick it apart in my head, then once I have identified the blind spot I swoop in. Sentry nests are not even a speed bump.
In the beginning I was a lot more cautious, then as I started to make rushes I found that they don't hit worth crap and there are blind spots galore. After that it is easy peasy.
I understand the concept behind it, but I think the current turret arcs are detrimental to the game. The optimal turret placement I've seen is place all three turrets around the battery, facing the battery. They can cover the power node, and they can cover a phase gate. It's not immediately intuitive though, and I would like the option to be more creative with sentry placements. It's a relatively minor thing, but as it is it's a flawed design.
As far as game balance goes though, when they don't have a blind spot turrets do their job great. Way better than hydras IMO.
I don't think they're unworkable, in their current form they're broken though.
Two possibilities I can think of:
- Sentries aren't often used because they require the robo tech path, which is res comitment away from upgrades currently. Allow them to be dropped without a robo fac?
- They're just too expensive for what they do. Cheaper? Give marines the ability to put a sentry battery in their offensive PG base without breaking the bank for upgrades?
- Sentries just have too massive a weak point. Allow one more turret per battery? Another battery per room? A wider arc on the current turrets?
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How do you fix this? You make bile hit for a PERCENTAGE of the target's armor per second instead of a flat 70 DPS to health and 150 DPS to armor. I'd say 5% per second for armor and 2% per second for health.
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Actually, they do. Spores interfere with targeting for sentries.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1).Well,if skulk if forced to take on power node first he is wasting time while marines can move in and fend him of power and restower,doing no economical damage to marines since powernode is free,and with 1 sentry facing powernode he has to try and get that sentry first.
2).Sounds like a plan.
3).Woah,than the situation is even worse than I thought.Well,I think that sentries should be able to hit targets when in LOS at all times.Lerk has Umbra to crack turtles.
Im really afraid of any straight damage buffs,since we do not want turtling for marines become even harder to crack for aliens.
Their biggest use is denying the spread of infestation in to your base, freeing up your units to attack aliens rather than waste ammo shooting cysts.
Marines can buy engineer equipment (20 res, welder included) and can place the sentries themselves, max 3, room needs to be powered.
No powerpack bull######, sentries should be able to be placed freely.
Also bilebomb needs nerf.
2 bombs for a sentry group, ridicoulus.
2 bombs for a group of macs, ridicoulus.
Moving the robo facility to a second chair item would also be helpful, as you really shouldn't be using any of the items in there unless you have a second chair anyways. Joining a game and watching the comm drop a robo first makes me sigh, knowing this match is either going to be fruitless or really difficult.
Edit: Having them as a pres item also alleviates some of the LOS issues I've seen with sentries. Where from above position X looks like a good spot for sentries, but on the ground its painfully obvious that position Y is MUCH better.
I think it would be cool for deployable sentries to be a PRes purchase. One per player. Remove them as a turtling tool for the comm, thus removing the noob trap crippling the team's economy. Give marines another fun thing to spend their PRes on.