<!--quoteo(post=2038491:date=Dec 1 2012, 04:18 PM:name=wiry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wiry @ Dec 1 2012, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038491"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that camo skulks should be heard. There is a silence upgrade and there is a camo upgrade, why should camo give you both? I guess to even it out aliens should basically be able to walk a bit faster with camo active, while still being able to press the movement modifier to be able to sneak.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Completely disregarding the fact that while camouflaged you move at about half speed, if that, I suppose. Completely disregarding skulks can crawl <i>any time they want</i>? Disregarding that you're then completely obvious with your bites and attacks then?
Obviously it gives you both. The apple is just like the orange, so long as you only include the fact they're a fruit.
<!--quoteo(post=2038654:date=Dec 1 2012, 11:51 PM:name=Sharp-Shooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sharp-Shooter @ Dec 1 2012, 11:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i really hope you guys know that camo does not equal impossible to see, actually if you look very closely you can see aliens in camo state, they are a very hard to see blue tinge, i have seen camo aliens walking around a wall and i blast them then to be called a hacker, its not hacks its called calibrating your monitor so you get the most accurate colors from it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They removed that. It's back to 100% invisibility because people were using graphics settings to make the blue tinge show up as clear as day.
I know this thread is about balance, and more specifically about someone wanting skulks to make noise while walking (which has <i>nothing</i> to do with camo)... But I read this thread title and thought to myself "heh, it would be kinda cool if aliens made a little bit of a 'woosh' noise as the cloak activated and deactivated".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think observatories are too effective against camo. I think a great change would be to make it slightly visible when you're in movement, and completely conceal it when standing still. Alternatively, if this sounds too unfair, make flashlight give away camo somewhat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know this thread is about balance, and more specifically about someone wanting skulks to make noise while walking (which has nothing to do with camo)... But I read this thread title and thought to myself "heh, it would be kinda cool if aliens made a little bit of a 'woosh' noise as the cloak activated and deactivated".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These are great game play ideas. Both encourage an active choice by players with real consequences.
B)
I would like to point out that it takes several bites to take out a marine with a camo-skulk, which it seems this discussion is really all about. If a marine is able to notice the flashing red signals when they are being bitten from behind as well as the loud as heck chomping, then they can generally react in time to at least do some damage if not save their own bacon. If they are running in a group of 2 or more, a wise Camo-Skulk will stay invisible and not get dead.
Gorges don't have the same ambush issue, but their positioning with camo for bile shots can be deadly. Fast reaction again stops the threat. Threat ends when Obs are up and covering correctly.
Fades are just crazy deadly when it comes to Camo. But with Shadow Step and Blink, adding sound to their steps is really a non-issue. Since fades are mid / late game this is less of an issue since Obs will be covering those squishy parts of the base.
Ones.... Dear God the Ones... I've killed so many marines with a camo-Ones it's become routine. However, even if you made noise while using camo, and the rules of crouching still applied, there would be no real difference. Then again, if you are a camo-Ones, then that camo will fall when ever you bump into a marine structure / player anyway. Same issues with late game action apply here.
Silent Camo OP? Not really, just gives a nasty edge early game that can be countered with fast coordinated action.
It's not a balance problem, it's a bad mechanic problem:
1) If camo is 100% invisible and silent then it's boring for both marine and skulk, you just get a free bite without any possibility of improving on the skulk side or to do anything about it on the marine side.
2) If camo is not 100% invisible then people tweak their graphics option to see cloaked units.
3) Camo is hard-countered by scan and obs. It's the only upgrade that can be countered that hard if at all.
Not too long ago there was a 'consensus' on the forums that camo is completely worthless, guess that shows how much consensus is worth. Just use sprint and spread out.
<!--quoteo(post=2038914:date=Dec 2 2012, 11:39 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Dec 2 2012, 11:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not too long ago there was a 'consensus' on the forums that camo is completely worthless, guess that shows how much consensus is worth. Just use sprint and spread out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Camo being buffed probably had something to do with that consensus change of heart.
It seems to me that the biggest problem so far, is that skulks feel that they're better with camo, simply because they choose their fights, leading to better K/D ratios. That makes camo a pretty strong upgrade for 1v1s, but an overall weak upgrade.
Such a huge part of the game is about tempo. Can't have tempo if you're either waiting for people to get to you, or creeping up to them.
K2D is almost meaningless and camo has a hard counter. Its not that it's not fair, it's that it is very effective under the right conditions and very ineffective in the wrong ones, which can make it frustrating for both teams.
<!--quoteo(post=2038682:date=Dec 2 2012, 02:43 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 2 2012, 02:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They removed that. It's back to 100% invisibility because people were using graphics settings to make the blue tinge show up as clear as day.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> that explains why i cant see an onos camo lately. i thought it was because i got a new monitor
Hard countered at the player level, there is no way for a skulk to see a scan coming and he cannot do anything about it. A cloak skulk that get scanned in LoS of marines just get caught with his pants down.
While I do think it's a good idea, I am ultimately against it because it would push players away from talking. This is a social game, and the voice communication should be a priority.
<!--quoteo(post=2038959:date=Dec 2 2012, 06:34 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 2 2012, 06:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Camo has a hard counter"
You guys really think you can spam 15 tres obs and 3tres/10s scans in every room?
What a joke. If you're building 5 observatories, then the aliens don't need camo to win. They're going to win by default.*
*on average, assuming similar skill levels. Anything can win or lose in a pub because pubs are ######.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No one thinks that, because that is a straw man.
There are skill solutions to hard counter camouflage. That is part of the risk of taking a Shade for your first hive. Whether or not it is a strong choice depends on a lot more than observatories and scanning costing tres. Whether it's an overpowered choice is an even more intricate question.
I am not saying it does or does not need adjustments (I am not a skilled enough player or playing in organized matches, I wouldn't know) but it seems a little dishonest to reduce discussions about the ability to "observatories cost resources."
<!--quoteo(post=2038973:date=Dec 3 2012, 02:25 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Dec 3 2012, 02:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hard countered at the player level, there is no way for a skulk to see a scan coming and he cannot do anything about it. A cloak skulk that get scanned in LoS of marines just get caught with his pants down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...AND? Does the Skulk instantly die after being spotted? Is he unable to attack like a normal Skulk? Neither.
If the Skulk is too close to escape (yeah right) he just attacks as he would "normally" do.
BUT OH were you referring to the Skulk standing on the floor right infront of the marine, about 10-15yds away, like camo skulks usually do, and in the middle of the room? Thus getting instantly killed? Yeah that happens alot....
<!--quoteo(post=2038959:date=Dec 2 2012, 05:34 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 2 2012, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Camo has a hard counter"
You guys really think you can spam 15 tres obs and 3tres/10s scans in every room?
What a joke. If you're building 5 observatories, then the aliens don't need camo to win. They're going to win by default.*
*on average, assuming similar skill levels. Anything can win or lose in a pub because pubs are ######.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can put down enough obs and enough scans that it's not an issue without breaking the bank. Yes. Without the ability to cloak ambush reliably, shade is significantly weaker than either of the other two hive paths, so the slight extra expense for scanning a few extra times is MORE than offset by the lack of power on the aliens side.
<!--quoteo(post=2038980:date=Dec 3 2012, 02:38 AM:name=Walt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Walt @ Dec 3 2012, 02:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No one thinks that, because that is a straw man.
There are skill solutions to hard counter camouflage. That is part of the risk of taking a Shade for your first hive. Whether or not it is a strong choice depends on a lot more than observatories and scanning costing tres. Whether it's an overpowered choice is an even more intricate question.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not a straw man. That is the offered "counter" to camo. If you have other suggestions, bring them out. If you think it's too intricate to discuss, well, thanks for your input.
<!--quoteo(post=2038981:date=Dec 2 2012, 06:39 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Dec 2 2012, 06:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038981"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...AND? Does the Skulk instantly die after being spotted? Is he unable to attack like a normal Skulk? Neither.
If the Skulk is too close to escape (yeah right) he just attacks as he would "normally" do.
BUT OH were you referring to the Skulk standing on the floor right infront of the marine, about 10-15yds away, like camo skulks usually do, and in the middle of the room? Thus getting instantly killed? Yeah that happens alot....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Being picked out by a white cross hair DESTROYS any ambush. No, he can't "just attack as he would normally do". He can attack but he'll be much weaker than a celer skulk rushing around a corner unexpectedly, or a cara skulk tanking in. If he was sitting on the cieling or something, and all of a sudden every marine has a white crosshair pointing him out, and he has to suddenly respond from a terrible location, then he's pretty much screwed. His starting point is WAY worse than knowing you're visible right away and positioning yourself to play accordingly. Plus all the time spent sneaking up and getting the ambush ready is 100% wasted. The other build orders result in much less potentially wasted time, and equally more aggression. You really don't have the time to only ambush from "safe" ambush locations when you're relying on cloaking to get you close to marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2038982:date=Dec 3 2012, 02:39 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 3 2012, 02:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can put down enough obs and enough scans that it's not an issue without breaking the bank. Yes. Without the ability to cloak ambush reliably, shade is significantly weaker than either of the other two hive paths, so the slight extra expense for scanning a few extra times is MORE than offset by the lack of power on the aliens side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
25 res and Shade hive gets silence instead. Marines get 2 obs 1 scan with that. Enough to push back camo skulks? Noooot even close.
Silence is pretty good. :P (Hard to say tho since nobody does it ._.)
<!--quoteo(post=2038984:date=Dec 3 2012, 02:45 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 3 2012, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being picked out by a white cross hair DESTROYS any ambush. No, he can't "just attack as he would normally do". He can attack but he'll be much weaker than a celer skulk rushing around a corner unexpectedly, or a cara skulk tanking in. If he was sitting on the cieling or something, and all of a sudden every marine has a white crosshair pointing him out, and he has to suddenly respond from a terrible location, then he's pretty much screwed. His starting point is WAY worse than knowing you're visible right away and positioning yourself to play accordingly. Plus all the time spent sneaking up and getting the ambush ready is 100% wasted. The other build orders result in much less potentially wasted time, and equally more aggression. You really don't have the time to only ambush from "safe" ambush locations when you're relying on cloaking to get you close to marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Camo skulks are going to be found from behind marines. No bloody way do marines check minimap and do a 180 and gun the skulk down before he manages to slip behind a corner, dropping from the roof for moar speed. But this is pretty pointless to argue considering a mud truck of variables so... -.-
<!--quoteo(post=2038985:date=Dec 2 2012, 06:48 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Dec 2 2012, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->25 res and Shade hive gets silence instead. Marines get 2 obs 1 scan with that. Enough to push back camo skulks? Noooot even close.
Silence is pretty good. :P (Hard to say tho since nobody does it ._.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Silence is ok. I prefer it for the shade first upgrade, but camo is generally better for most players, and the other chambers first upgrades are both more powerful than silence. 25 resources is more expensive than 8 scans. That covers the map for 3-4 minutes of play time. With the other 2 upgrade paths you generally don't spend res on the "second" upgrade until after hive 2 is finished.
It's EXTREMELY hard as a skulk trying to use camo against marines with a commander that is scanning effectively, to get behind marines to ambush them. It's the chamber that gives you the least map mobility.
camo skulks can generally be thought of as weaker than normal skulks. Normal skulks won't have their position constantly given away by white crosshairs. There's a res investment to make that happen, sure, but the investment allows for more map control than marines would have against any other chamber build.
[edit] I also VERY rarely see an alien comm that goes shade hive first and doesn't outspend the marine commander's investment in scan with shade chambers on the map. Economic investment goes both ways.
<!--quoteo(post=2038973:date=Dec 2 2012, 04:25 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Dec 2 2012, 04:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hard countered at the player level, there is no way for a skulk to see a scan coming and he cannot do anything about it. A cloak skulk that get scanned in LoS of marines just get caught with his pants down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If we follow that reasoning cloaked skulks are a hard counter to marines at the player level. No way for a marine to see it coming and being jumped by a camo skulk is pretty much a pants down situation. Although some people claim stuff like this:
<!--quoteo(post=2038551:date=Dec 1 2012, 04:19 PM:name=Sops)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sops @ Dec 1 2012, 04:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At least in pubs I haven't had a problem killing camo skulks, if you get bit just jump away and start shooting where you were.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Silly us, of course! Just shoot the skulk! Why haven't we thought of that before...
- already in melee range - already injured the marine - marine reaction time - sees marine, marine doesn't see it
If despite having all these advantages on its side you still manage to beat a skulk consistently - especially in the early game with a0-a1 - you are playing against a brain damaged goldfish, well done.
I don't think the counter part is a huge problem, even if it's the only upgrade that behave like that and it's a bit of a binary mechanic with little depth. These two points remain though:
1) If camo is 100% invisible and silent then it's boring for both marine and skulk, you just get a free bite without any possibility of improving on the skulk side or to do anything about it on the marine side.
2) If camo is not 100% invisible then people tweak their graphics option to see cloaked units.
If you agree with these two, then the only solution is to have cloaked skulks making sound.
My favorite solution is cloak when fast, because it doesn't add additional rule or extra-sound. I would also remove uncloak on scan and fix the scan circles thing. Uncloak when taking damage would stay.
So I was mariem commanding today, and I RIPPED some shade hive start khamms apart. It was tragic, hilarious, and awesome.
I'll agree, there's some level of painful expense, but if khamm's actually drop shade chambers they screw themselves by costing more than the marine comm has to expend to equal them.
It's a lot of fun playing has shade first kharra if the comm isn't good though. I feel so evil and awesome :)
<!--quoteo(post=2038993:date=Dec 2 2012, 07:06 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Dec 2 2012, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038993"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->8 scans last 80 seconds, 1.3 minutes. Don't know how you stretch that out to 3-4min. And that's only for one location.
Anyway, I'll comment on this more once I get a few chances to marine comm against camo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Skulks can't just teleport deep into scanned locations immediately as soon as scan wears off. Especially not at camo's extremely slow walking pace. It just fundamentally does not work with way. Stop being idiotic. Yes, Skulks can cloak, and scan can't possibly economically cover the whole map at all times. It doesn't need to. It only needs to approximately cover the places where marines will actually want to go in the near future. It's ok if there are moderate blind spots, it's VERY hard to exploit them as aliens. Much much harder than it is to exploit the fundamental disadvantage of aliens not having any real upgrade, and seeing most of the most important alien ambush attempts as blinking white beacons long before you walk into the areas is a massive advantage, weather or not aliens choose to use camo.
every shade chamber the aliens drop is either 1 obs or 5 scans as the marine team. I can only speak for the current meta game, but Aliens generally waste more tres on structures placed on the map to "control" enemy advancement than marines do. Even if they don't, marines can still do a half decent job.
<!--quoteo(post=2038973:date=Dec 3 2012, 01:25 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Dec 3 2012, 01:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hard countered at the player level, there is no way for a skulk to see a scan coming and he cannot do anything about it. A cloak skulk that get scanned in LoS of marines just get caught with his pants down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not true. It is very easy to just retreat and wait around the next corner, to either engage, or force them again to pay 3 res. For what? A 0 res skulk. <!--quoteo(post=2038982:date=Dec 3 2012, 01:39 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 3 2012, 01:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can put down enough obs and enough scans that it's not an issue without breaking the bank. Yes. Without the ability to cloak ambush reliably, shade is significantly weaker than either of the other two hive paths, so the slight extra expense for scanning a few extra times is MORE than offset by the lack of power on the aliens side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, cara / regen or celerity does not make such a difference for the skulk, that you make it up to be. Cara and Cele only help you, to close the distance to the marine you engage. Camo does this much more reliable. Your first bite is nearly always free. And if a scan happens while you are to far away to engage, you can nearly always escape. Most marines have problems to hit an alien that is not moving at them. You are arguing like you haven't played against or with camo skulks since the last two patches.
<u>Let's look at it with some distance:</u> Camo has proven to be very strong in the early games. Skulks benefit the most from it. With shade hive you invest into a strong alien start. The drawback is, that upgrades like cara / regen and adrenaline (which you need for higher life forms) are pushed farer into the future. One could say, if you can't get a 2nd or 3rd hive, you got a real problem in mid- to late-game. So it is a valid risk-reward tactic. This would be true, but you forget that camo is the best skulk-upgrade right now. And therefor the best you can do to push your teams early-game viability. If your team can't secure a 2nd and / or 3rd hive position in the early game with camo, it wouldn't be able to do so with cele or cara / regen. If marines are fast and secure the other 2 / 3 tech points with phase gates and obs than camo aliens are in a difficult position. The problem is, you can't save the other 2 / 3 tech points against an equally skilled alien team. Even if they have no upgrades at all. (Look at early 2nd hive tactics) Skulks are good enough to capture one of this outpost, because marines have to spread up between them and resource nodes. Also marines rely on their ability to posses more res nodes than aliens. 5 to 3 is almost a balanced distribution of RTs. Marines need the ability to send lonely marines to build / rebuild RTs. With camo, aliens can completely deny this. Even in a very good case for the marines, where they got 3 bases to defend, they won't hold more than 3 RTs for long. On top of all this, camo can not be effectively countered by the player that is engaged by it. Sure, it can be countered by the com. But this is never a good way of design in multiplayer games. There should always be the possibility of a counter for every player not just one in the whole team. If not, it will feel unfair and frustrating.
After playing 2 builds with it now, I'm sure, camo is overpowered right now. But what to do? Making you slightly visible again - like before - will only make it useless. It already has the disadvantage of only being really useful in the early game and for skulks. So a good solution would be something that makes it more viable in the late game and for other life forms. Than you got room to nerf the problematic part.
I think camo could work when it would be like:<ul><li><b>Aliens are able to run while cloaked.</b> (Needed, to make it viable for Lerks and Fades)</li><li><b>You are only 100% invisible when standing still.</b> (If you move, you should be partially visible but harder to target.)</li><li><b>The faster the alien moves, the more partially visible it gets.</b> (This effect should blur your outlines, so a marine can't tell where the alien begins and where it ends.)</li><li><b>Being hit doesn't uncloak you.</b> (Again, make camo viable as combat-ability that makes it harder to aim at you.)</li><li><b>Obs only increase your %-ual visibility.</b> (But doesn't uncloak you completely.)</li></ul>
<!--quoteo(post=2039174:date=Dec 3 2012, 01:08 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Dec 3 2012, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think camo could work when it would be like:<ul><li><b>Aliens are able to run while cloaked.</b> (Needed, to make it viable for Lerks and Fades)</li><li><b>You are only 100% invisible when standing still.</b> (If you move, you should be partially visible but harder to target.)</li><li><b>The faster the alien moves, the more partially visible it gets.</b> (This effect should blur your outlines, so a marine can't tell where the alien begins and where it ends.)</li><li><b>Being hit doesn't uncloak you.</b> (Again, make camo viable as combat-ability that makes it harder to aim at you.)</li><li><b>Obs only increase your %-ual visibility.</b> (But doesn't uncloak you completely.)</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not bad but goes against this one:
2) If camo is not 100% invisible then people tweak their graphics option to see cloaked units.
To develop a bit, a gameplay mechanic that is based around partial visibility is problematic because you can't control how it will end up looking on the player's screen. Even on calibrated screens things looks differently from screen to screen. If you add game, screen and video card graphic options on top of that, it gets pretty bad. It's hard to guarantee consistency and fairness in this context. Darkness is problematic for the same reasons, as some already argued on this forum.
It's not the biggest problem though, but it's clearly not ideal. I you can avoid to build your game around such mechanics, it's probably a good idea.
Comments
I guess to even it out aliens should basically be able to walk a bit faster with camo active, while still being able to press the movement modifier to be able to sneak.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Completely disregarding the fact that while camouflaged you move at about half speed, if that, I suppose. Completely disregarding skulks can crawl <i>any time they want</i>? Disregarding that you're then completely obvious with your bites and attacks then?
Obviously it gives you both. The apple is just like the orange, so long as you only include the fact they're a fruit.
They removed that. It's back to 100% invisibility because people were using graphics settings to make the blue tinge show up as clear as day.
1)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think observatories are too effective against camo. I think a great change would be to make it slightly visible when you're in movement, and completely conceal it when standing still. Alternatively, if this sounds too unfair, make flashlight give away camo somewhat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know this thread is about balance, and more specifically about someone wanting skulks to make noise while walking (which has nothing to do with camo)... But I read this thread title and thought to myself "heh, it would be kinda cool if aliens made a little bit of a 'woosh' noise as the cloak activated and deactivated".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These are great game play ideas. Both encourage an active choice by players with real consequences.
B)
I would like to point out that it takes several bites to take out a marine with a camo-skulk, which it seems this discussion is really all about. If a marine is able to notice the flashing red signals when they are being bitten from behind as well as the loud as heck chomping, then they can generally react in time to at least do some damage if not save their own bacon. If they are running in a group of 2 or more, a wise Camo-Skulk will stay invisible and not get dead.
Gorges don't have the same ambush issue, but their positioning with camo for bile shots can be deadly. Fast reaction again stops the threat. Threat ends when Obs are up and covering correctly.
Fades are just crazy deadly when it comes to Camo. But with Shadow Step and Blink, adding sound to their steps is really a non-issue. Since fades are mid / late game this is less of an issue since Obs will be covering those squishy parts of the base.
Ones.... Dear God the Ones... I've killed so many marines with a camo-Ones it's become routine. However, even if you made noise while using camo, and the rules of crouching still applied, there would be no real difference. Then again, if you are a camo-Ones, then that camo will fall when ever you bump into a marine structure / player anyway. Same issues with late game action apply here.
Silent Camo OP? Not really, just gives a nasty edge early game that can be countered with fast coordinated action.
1) If camo is 100% invisible and silent then it's boring for both marine and skulk, you just get a free bite without any possibility of improving on the skulk side or to do anything about it on the marine side.
2) If camo is not 100% invisible then people tweak their graphics option to see cloaked units.
3) Camo is hard-countered by scan and obs. It's the only upgrade that can be countered that hard if at all.
Just use sprint and spread out.
Just use sprint and spread out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Camo being buffed probably had something to do with that consensus change of heart.
That makes camo a pretty strong upgrade for 1v1s, but an overall weak upgrade.
Such a huge part of the game is about tempo. Can't have tempo if you're either waiting for people to get to you, or creeping up to them.
that explains why i cant see an onos camo lately. i thought it was because i got a new monitor
You guys really think you can spam 15 tres obs and 3tres/10s scans in every room?
What a joke. If you're building 5 observatories, then the aliens don't need camo to win. They're going to win by default.*
*on average, assuming similar skill levels. Anything can win or lose in a pub because pubs are ######.
You guys really think you can spam 15 tres obs and 3tres/10s scans in every room?
What a joke. If you're building 5 observatories, then the aliens don't need camo to win. They're going to win by default.*
*on average, assuming similar skill levels. Anything can win or lose in a pub because pubs are ######.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one thinks that, because that is a straw man.
There are skill solutions to hard counter camouflage. That is part of the risk of taking a Shade for your first hive. Whether or not it is a strong choice depends on a lot more than observatories and scanning costing tres. Whether it's an overpowered choice is an even more intricate question.
I am not saying it does or does not need adjustments (I am not a skilled enough player or playing in organized matches, I wouldn't know) but it seems a little dishonest to reduce discussions about the ability to "observatories cost resources."
...AND? Does the Skulk instantly die after being spotted? Is he unable to attack like a normal Skulk? Neither.
If the Skulk is too close to escape (yeah right) he just attacks as he would "normally" do.
BUT OH were you referring to the Skulk standing on the floor right infront of the marine, about 10-15yds away, like camo skulks usually do, and in the middle of the room? Thus getting instantly killed? Yeah that happens alot....
You guys really think you can spam 15 tres obs and 3tres/10s scans in every room?
What a joke. If you're building 5 observatories, then the aliens don't need camo to win. They're going to win by default.*
*on average, assuming similar skill levels. Anything can win or lose in a pub because pubs are ######.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can put down enough obs and enough scans that it's not an issue without breaking the bank. Yes. Without the ability to cloak ambush reliably, shade is significantly weaker than either of the other two hive paths, so the slight extra expense for scanning a few extra times is MORE than offset by the lack of power on the aliens side.
There are skill solutions to hard counter camouflage. That is part of the risk of taking a Shade for your first hive. Whether or not it is a strong choice depends on a lot more than observatories and scanning costing tres. Whether it's an overpowered choice is an even more intricate question.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not a straw man. That is the offered "counter" to camo. If you have other suggestions, bring them out. If you think it's too intricate to discuss, well, thanks for your input.
If the Skulk is too close to escape (yeah right) he just attacks as he would "normally" do.
BUT OH were you referring to the Skulk standing on the floor right infront of the marine, about 10-15yds away, like camo skulks usually do, and in the middle of the room? Thus getting instantly killed? Yeah that happens alot....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being picked out by a white cross hair DESTROYS any ambush. No, he can't "just attack as he would normally do". He can attack but he'll be much weaker than a celer skulk rushing around a corner unexpectedly, or a cara skulk tanking in. If he was sitting on the cieling or something, and all of a sudden every marine has a white crosshair pointing him out, and he has to suddenly respond from a terrible location, then he's pretty much screwed. His starting point is WAY worse than knowing you're visible right away and positioning yourself to play accordingly. Plus all the time spent sneaking up and getting the ambush ready is 100% wasted. The other build orders result in much less potentially wasted time, and equally more aggression. You really don't have the time to only ambush from "safe" ambush locations when you're relying on cloaking to get you close to marines.
25 res and Shade hive gets silence instead. Marines get 2 obs 1 scan with that. Enough to push back camo skulks? Noooot even close.
Silence is pretty good. :P (Hard to say tho since nobody does it ._.)
Camo skulks are going to be found from behind marines. No bloody way do marines check minimap and do a 180 and gun the skulk down before he manages to slip behind a corner, dropping from the roof for moar speed. But this is pretty pointless to argue considering a mud truck of variables so... -.-
Silence is pretty good. :P (Hard to say tho since nobody does it ._.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Silence is ok. I prefer it for the shade first upgrade, but camo is generally better for most players, and the other chambers first upgrades are both more powerful than silence. 25 resources is more expensive than 8 scans. That covers the map for 3-4 minutes of play time. With the other 2 upgrade paths you generally don't spend res on the "second" upgrade until after hive 2 is finished.
It's EXTREMELY hard as a skulk trying to use camo against marines with a commander that is scanning effectively, to get behind marines to ambush them. It's the chamber that gives you the least map mobility.
camo skulks can generally be thought of as weaker than normal skulks. Normal skulks won't have their position constantly given away by white crosshairs. There's a res investment to make that happen, sure, but the investment allows for more map control than marines would have against any other chamber build.
[edit] I also VERY rarely see an alien comm that goes shade hive first and doesn't outspend the marine commander's investment in scan with shade chambers on the map. Economic investment goes both ways.
Anyway, I'll comment on this more once I get a few chances to marine comm against camo.
If we follow that reasoning cloaked skulks are a hard counter to marines at the player level. No way for a marine to see it coming and being jumped by a camo skulk is pretty much a pants down situation. Although some people claim stuff like this:
<!--quoteo(post=2038551:date=Dec 1 2012, 04:19 PM:name=Sops)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sops @ Dec 1 2012, 04:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At least in pubs I haven't had a problem killing camo skulks, if you get bit just jump away and start shooting where you were.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Silly us, of course! Just shoot the skulk! Why haven't we thought of that before...
- already in melee range
- already injured the marine
- marine reaction time
- sees marine, marine doesn't see it
If despite having all these advantages on its side you still manage to beat a skulk consistently - especially in the early game with a0-a1 - you are playing against a brain damaged goldfish, well done.
Yes, making camo also not include silence (2-in-1) would be a good thing to try at least...
1) If camo is 100% invisible and silent then it's boring for both marine and skulk, you just get a free bite without any possibility of improving on the skulk side or to do anything about it on the marine side.
2) If camo is not 100% invisible then people tweak their graphics option to see cloaked units.
If you agree with these two, then the only solution is to have cloaked skulks making sound.
My favorite solution is cloak when fast, because it doesn't add additional rule or extra-sound. I would also remove uncloak on scan and fix the scan circles thing. Uncloak when taking damage would stay.
I'll agree, there's some level of painful expense, but if khamm's actually drop shade chambers they screw themselves by costing more than the marine comm has to expend to equal them.
It's a lot of fun playing has shade first kharra if the comm isn't good though. I feel so evil and awesome :)
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8Kyi0WNg40" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8Kyi0WNg40</a>
Anyway, I'll comment on this more once I get a few chances to marine comm against camo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks can't just teleport deep into scanned locations immediately as soon as scan wears off. Especially not at camo's extremely slow walking pace. It just fundamentally does not work with way. Stop being idiotic. Yes, Skulks can cloak, and scan can't possibly economically cover the whole map at all times. It doesn't need to. It only needs to approximately cover the places where marines will actually want to go in the near future. It's ok if there are moderate blind spots, it's VERY hard to exploit them as aliens. Much much harder than it is to exploit the fundamental disadvantage of aliens not having any real upgrade, and seeing most of the most important alien ambush attempts as blinking white beacons long before you walk into the areas is a massive advantage, weather or not aliens choose to use camo.
every shade chamber the aliens drop is either 1 obs or 5 scans as the marine team. I can only speak for the current meta game, but Aliens generally waste more tres on structures placed on the map to "control" enemy advancement than marines do. Even if they don't, marines can still do a half decent job.
Not true. It is very easy to just retreat and wait around the next corner, to either engage, or force them again to pay 3 res. For what? A 0 res skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=2038982:date=Dec 3 2012, 01:39 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 3 2012, 01:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can put down enough obs and enough scans that it's not an issue without breaking the bank. Yes. Without the ability to cloak ambush reliably, shade is significantly weaker than either of the other two hive paths, so the slight extra expense for scanning a few extra times is MORE than offset by the lack of power on the aliens side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, cara / regen or celerity does not make such a difference for the skulk, that you make it up to be. Cara and Cele only help you, to close the distance to the marine you engage. Camo does this much more reliable. Your first bite is nearly always free. And if a scan happens while you are to far away to engage, you can nearly always escape. Most marines have problems to hit an alien that is not moving at them. You are arguing like you haven't played against or with camo skulks since the last two patches.
<u>Let's look at it with some distance:</u> Camo has proven to be very strong in the early games. Skulks benefit the most from it. With shade hive you invest into a strong alien start. The drawback is, that upgrades like cara / regen and adrenaline (which you need for higher life forms) are pushed farer into the future. One could say, if you can't get a 2nd or 3rd hive, you got a real problem in mid- to late-game. So it is a valid risk-reward tactic. This would be true, but you forget that camo is the best skulk-upgrade right now. And therefor the best you can do to push your teams early-game viability. If your team can't secure a 2nd and / or 3rd hive position in the early game with camo, it wouldn't be able to do so with cele or cara / regen.
If marines are fast and secure the other 2 / 3 tech points with phase gates and obs than camo aliens are in a difficult position. The problem is, you can't save the other 2 / 3 tech points against an equally skilled alien team. Even if they have no upgrades at all. (Look at early 2nd hive tactics) Skulks are good enough to capture one of this outpost, because marines have to spread up between them and resource nodes.
Also marines rely on their ability to posses more res nodes than aliens. 5 to 3 is almost a balanced distribution of RTs. Marines need the ability to send lonely marines to build / rebuild RTs. With camo, aliens can completely deny this. Even in a very good case for the marines, where they got 3 bases to defend, they won't hold more than 3 RTs for long.
On top of all this, camo can not be effectively countered by the player that is engaged by it. Sure, it can be countered by the com. But this is never a good way of design in multiplayer games. There should always be the possibility of a counter for every player not just one in the whole team. If not, it will feel unfair and frustrating.
After playing 2 builds with it now, I'm sure, camo is overpowered right now. But what to do? Making you slightly visible again - like before - will only make it useless. It already has the disadvantage of only being really useful in the early game and for skulks. So a good solution would be something that makes it more viable in the late game and for other life forms. Than you got room to nerf the problematic part.
I think camo could work when it would be like:<ul><li><b>Aliens are able to run while cloaked.</b> (Needed, to make it viable for Lerks and Fades)</li><li><b>You are only 100% invisible when standing still.</b> (If you move, you should be partially visible but harder to target.)</li><li><b>The faster the alien moves, the more partially visible it gets.</b> (This effect should blur your outlines, so a marine can't tell where the alien begins and where it ends.)</li><li><b>Being hit doesn't uncloak you.</b> (Again, make camo viable as combat-ability that makes it harder to aim at you.)</li><li><b>Obs only increase your %-ual visibility.</b> (But doesn't uncloak you completely.)</li></ul>
Not bad but goes against this one:
2) If camo is not 100% invisible then people tweak their graphics option to see cloaked units.
To develop a bit, a gameplay mechanic that is based around partial visibility is problematic because you can't control how it will end up looking on the player's screen. Even on calibrated screens things looks differently from screen to screen. If you add game, screen and video card graphic options on top of that, it gets pretty bad. It's hard to guarantee consistency and fairness in this context.
Darkness is problematic for the same reasons, as some already argued on this forum.
It's not the biggest problem though, but it's clearly not ideal. I you can avoid to build your game around such mechanics, it's probably a good idea.