<!--quoteo(post=2034311:date=Nov 25 2012, 09:09 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 25 2012, 09:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you place a whip behind a wall, a solid wall, a solid opaque wall. And then fire grenades into said solid opaque wall, a solid opaque wall through which the whip cannot see, it will hit the grenades right back at you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Checked the files again. I must have imagined it needing LoS. All it does is scan it's circle area of effect.
Actually whips are terribad underpowered at the moment, since quite literally the only thing they do is repel grenade launchers. Since grenade launchers are the only thing the aliens can hard counter, a good Marines commander would research flamethrower before GL. Especially if he already knows there are some whips on the field. He does this because flamethrower renders <i>any</i> alien forward base completely and utterly moot.
So yeah, go ahead and nerf Whips. It'll make the Alien team that much more ROFLStomp to even halfway lucid Marines.
To be fair, most Marine commanders are so horrible that they think GL's are the best thing since sliced bread, and might even research it before upgrades. That hardly seems like the failing of the Marines team, so much as a failing in the most important member of the Marines team.
In this case, might I suggest 'eject' if you aren't too busy raping the Aliens team.
(And yes, Whips do have other uses like being shifted in on top of a power node but those are end-game troll strategies for the <i>most</i> part.)
EDIT: LOL @ the video, looks like they do clip through walls. That's silly, yes, and it will be nerfed. I actually think it deserves to clip through walls for 15 T.Res and such a situational ability, but there's no doubt it's unintended. It looked like only the grenade reflect was hitting through walls though, rather than it actually doing damage to players through walls.
That's a bug that should definitely fixed, however the whips ability to deflect the grenades coming at it or within radius of it should not be altered at all.
At this rate everything in the game is just going to become a useless novelty because of "balance"
<!--quoteo(post=2034371:date=Nov 25 2012, 08:54 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 25 2012, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034371"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It'll make the Alien team that much more ROFLStomp to even halfway lucid Marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you explain this sentence to me? I think something was lost in translation.
<!--quoteo(post=2034395:date=Nov 25 2012, 01:33 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 25 2012, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034395"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can you explain this sentence to me? I think something was lost in translation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was an aside reference to all the recent Alien nerfs, and I said it because it seems like every other forum topic is begging for yet another Aliens nerf instead of people asking for maybe a few Marines buff's instead.
The irony is that Aliens hardly ever win at all at top-level play, yet they are the constant victims of the nerf bat because of inexpierenced Marines commanders. That results in this exact thread, where there's an easy hard counter but people don't want to use it because they would rather kill five skulks in one shot with a GL, then come to the forums and complain that one particular structure stops them from single-handedly owning the other team <i>and</i> their structures. (And it owns structures too, outside of <i>one</i>. So there's that too.)
I just think it's funny, but also kind of sad since I loved playing Aliens commander before. Now it's just feels...useless and boring. I'm George Jetson, pushing that one stupid button for a living. That's hyperbole, but not much considering that up until end-game you pretty much have four life form abilities to upgrade, and four chamber upgrades, and beyond that you just cyst and replace harvesters. Drifters give you <i>something</i> to do, but at the end of the day it's far less of an active mid-game as an Alien Commander now.
All because Marines thought their toys were good enough, but the Aliens were OP. They were, but the Early Onos Nerf pretty much brought them in line. Many of the other nerfs to Alien structures on the heels of that change have been unnecessary, in my view. (Although the changes to Regen and Cloaking were needed as well. 3 seconds is a good place for OOC to kick in.)
Instead of worrying about how to nerf Aliens so that new commanders can win, how about they concentrate on making Marine command easier for new commanders to interface with in ways that leave the high-skill ceiling as a benefit to expert commanders.
<!--quoteo(post=2034311:date=Nov 26 2012, 02:09 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 26 2012, 02:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But ye, next time the alien commander builds his hive in a teeny tiny passageway, in which there is hardly enough room for the whip to extend, let alone for a grenade to fly, I will definitely remember this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are no shortage of teeny tiny hallways in this game.
But really, this will work any time you have some height elevation over the whip: You fire the grenade, the whip whacks it at you, it bounces off you back into the whip.
Anyways, it still proves my point that whips are not a hard counter to grenades: Through careful aim and a bit of thought, you can "out-smart" the whip's grenade whacking ability in a surprising number of locations. If a grenade explodes near a whip, the whip and anything near it still takes damage. A hard counter would be having the whip use vortex on the grenades instead.
All that being said, I believe whips <b>should</b> be a hard counter to grenades. The fact of the matter is that any marine <b>not</b> holding a grenade launcher is a hard-counter to a whip.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=2034158:date=Nov 25 2012, 11:46 AM:name=DumbMarine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DumbMarine @ Nov 25 2012, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034158"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like whips where they are now.
I generally regret purchasing/researching GLs though, they're hard to aim, hard to fight with, not cheap, and they need the support of a flamethrower to actually kill things defended with whips. Why buy a GL at all? Just get a flamethrower. Hydras aren't scary enough to justify a dedicated anti-building weapon IMO, and everything else burns/dies without infestation. Something's gotta change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You use the GL to kill the skulks/fades attacking your ARCs and Exos ... and once they have killed the whips, the GL's can rule the roost.
But yea, if you are going to ninja a hive, you want a FT and jetpack. Fastest way to kill a hive as a single person.
<!--quoteo(post=2034472:date=Nov 25 2012, 09:52 PM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ Nov 25 2012, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are no shortage of teeny tiny hallways in this game.
But really, this will work any time you have some height elevation over the whip: You fire the grenade, the whip whacks it at you, it bounces off you back into the whip.
Anyways, it still proves my point that whips are not a hard counter to grenades: Through careful aim and a bit of thought, you can "out-smart" the whip's grenade whacking ability in a surprising number of locations. If a grenade explodes near a whip, the whip and anything near it still takes damage. A hard counter would be having the whip use vortex on the grenades instead.
All that being said, I believe whips <b>should</b> be a hard counter to grenades. The fact of the matter is that any marine <b>not</b> holding a grenade launcher is a hard-counter to a whip.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i dunno about that last sentence.
i've been instakilled a couple of times by cloaked bombard whips. they instantly strip 100% armor and 2-shot you... dead in 1 second :D
<!--quoteo(post=2034316:date=Nov 25 2012, 09:20 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 25 2012, 09:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is the whips intended feature 100% knockback of all grenades fired at it? If it is, then what exactly was going on around build 180-190, when whips were hitting almost no grenades back? I'm pretty sure that wasn't declared a bug or anything. Maybe they were just trying to flesh out the whips intended features. Maybe they still are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wasn't declared a bug officially, but they actually said in the dev Q&As after or around 229 (1.0) that someone was specifically working on whips.
They used to be horrible before, flinging grenades into friendly structures, not flinging grenades at all, etc. Couple that with their near-uselessness, and you can tell how much they were used... At least they're reliable and worth 15 res for their anti-GL capability now. Keep in mind 15 res is still quite a lot. a 15-res whip and 2 crags is two arcs + 5.
Yeah, was in that 1 minute must do hive kill window, gl in hand, build 200+, surely I can defeat whips, with the ocassional mistake, right?
Oh no. Even with an armoury in the room behind, eventually I just stood there in stark disbelief ... magic whips! In a totally different map to that video.
<!--quoteo(post=2034895:date=Nov 25 2012, 11:43 PM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Nov 25 2012, 11:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034895"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, was in that 1 minute must do hive kill window, gl in hand, build 200+, surely I can defeat whips, with the ocassional mistake, right?
Oh no. Even with an armoury in the room behind, eventually I just stood there in stark disbelief ... magic whips! In a totally different map to that video.
What happened timing the grenade?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2s fuse. Two seconds. Bounce it several times, or get a flamethrower.
EDIT: Tested it. Grenades refuse to actually BOUNCE, and the timer is too long. Granted, as long as that line of sight thing is fixed, whips are fine.
EDIT: The answer is to pop the cysts with your pistol. The moment the cyst dies, the whip unroots. It doesn't wait for the infection to finish receding.
<!--quoteo(post=2034505:date=Nov 25 2012, 06:43 PM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Nov 25 2012, 06:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You use the GL to kill the skulks/fades attacking your ARCs and Exos ... and once they have killed the whips, the GL's can rule the roost.
But yea, if you are going to ninja a hive, you want a FT and jetpack. Fastest way to kill a hive as a single person.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Every time I try using a GL to do that the fades come and thwack me :[
With a flamethrower I can be with the exo to help weld, can spray fire at it's feet to get skulks off it, and plus it hard counters the lerk gases. IMO an underrated gun. If I had to choose GL or flamethrower I'd take flamethrower every time.
<!--quoteo(post=2034505:date=Nov 25 2012, 10:43 PM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Nov 25 2012, 10:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You use the GL to kill the skulks/fades attacking your ARCs and Exos ... and once they have killed the whips, the GL's can rule the roost.
But yea, if you are going to ninja a hive, you want a FT and jetpack. Fastest way to kill a hive as a single person.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You people going all HUE HUE HUE SILLY WHIPS; (figuratively) meaning this mechanic (which was broken from the beginning) was always supposed to work like this. I always used to read the whip description and though it just didn't do what it is supposed to. It does now, and everyone loses their freaking minds.
You know what i find silly? That a GL is both a long-range building siege and anti skulk / lerk / gorge / fade weapon in one.
It's silly that one GL guy can take out a whole gorge clot/hydra nest with one ###### clip. It's silly that 4 grenades completely clears out a hive of it's eggs and utility buildings like crags and shifts. It's silly that by spamming some random grenades you can pretty much find shades and units that are 'cloaking' somewhere. It's silly that ALL OF THIS is done for just 25 resources. It's silly that if you actually finally DIE some other dip###### that killed the lerk/skulk that killed you picks it up, in a cycle that can pretty much repeat itself indefinably.
Sure you got killed a few times by your own grenades, Oh the humiliation is so big you whine about it like a pig on voice and force close the game.
You might then say Oh, but they don't have any other weapon than their pistol and can be singled out, Well you sound just as silly as you're trying to make gorges seem the anti everything when you're trying to kill a building or two. Besides that, jetpacks pretty much nullify that point into the floor, but that's a whole issue entirely.
Besides it's not like you can't attack different frontlines with your stupid weapon, and even if all frontlines contain whips? EMPLOY A DIFFERENT TACTIC.
<!--quoteo(post=2035695:date=Nov 27 2012, 12:56 PM:name=Salt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salt @ Nov 27 2012, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035695"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You people going all HUE HUE HUE SILLY WHIPS; (figuratively) meaning this mechanic (which was broken from the beginning) was always supposed to work like this. I always used to read the whip description and though it just didn't do what it is supposed to. It does now, and everyone loses their freaking minds.
You know what i find silly? That a GL is both a long-range building siege and anti skulk / lerk / gorge / fade weapon in one.
It's silly that one GL guy can take out a whole gorge clot/hydra nest with one ###### clip. It's silly that 4 grenades completely clears out a hive of it's eggs and utility buildings like crags and shifts. It's silly that by spamming some random grenades you can pretty much find shades and units that are 'cloaking' somewhere. It's silly that ALL OF THIS is done for just 25 resources. It's silly that if you actually finally DIE some other dip###### that killed the lerk/skulk that killed you picks it up, in a cycle that can pretty much repeat itself indefinably.
Sure you got killed a few times by your own grenades, Oh the humiliation is so big you whine about it like a pig on voice and force close the game.
You might then say Oh, but they don't have any other weapon than their pistol and can be singled out, Well you sound just as silly as you're trying to make gorges seem the anti everything when you're trying to kill a building or two. Besides that, jetpacks pretty much nullify that point into the floor, but that's a whole issue entirely.
Besides it's not like you can't attack different frontlines with your stupid weapon, and even if all frontlines contain whips? EMPLOY A DIFFERENT TACTIC.
So no, they really are fine as-is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you find yourself dying to GLs as Lerk or Fade, then you are doing something extremely wrong and should stop doing that thing immediately.
As for the rest, I think you are misunderstanding the problem. The problem is not that whips hit grenades back. A major role of the whip is indeed to hit grenades back. The problem is that it is just too good at it.
Imagine there was a marine structure that hit bile bombs back. No problem right? Just get skulks to go in and destroy it. Well what if they build it in their base? Or in the middle of an outpost. Well, that is essentially untouchable by skulks, so it can't be destroyed. Sure, an Onos can destroy it easily, and then take out the rest of the base, but bile bomb was <i>made </i>to destroy structures and bases, and now this one structure makes bile bomb completely useless at doing what it was designed to do?
Two whips with some crags around will never be taken by a squad of marines. Not as long as the aliens have any clue of what they are doing. Now, the grenade launcher, a weapon that is meant to destroy structures, is rendered completely useless, and the only thing that can clear out the fortification is ARCs.
Sure, let the whips hit back grenades. Hell, if a marine is firing grenades in from a whole room away, he shouldn't just be able to destroy everything you have without risking anything. But if a marine is standing 5 feet away from a whip, firing grenades directly into it, that whip should not hit every single one back without a problem. That is just too good.
<!--quoteo(post=2035700:date=Nov 27 2012, 01:19 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 27 2012, 01:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035700"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Imagine there was a marine structure that hit bile bombs back. No problem right? Just get skulks to go in and destroy it. Well what if they build it in their base? Or in the middle of an outpost. Well, that is essentially untouchable by skulks, so it can't be destroyed. Sure, an Onos can destroy it easily, and then take out the rest of the base, but bile bomb was <i>made </i>to destroy structures and bases, and now this one structure makes bile bomb completely useless at doing what it was designed to do?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with your comparison is, that aliens actually struggle to get down marine bases. Marines don't. They have ARCs, EXOs, Jet Pack rush, GLs, Flamethrowers (that work like cysts-vacuums) all on top of there normal LMG-ranged-advantage that is enough to take down most of the alien infrastructure without great risk. You can't justify a nerf of the whips purpose with how bad it would be, if the aliens would need to fight against such a structure.
<!--quoteo(post=2035700:date=Nov 27 2012, 11:19 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 27 2012, 11:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035700"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you find yourself dying to GLs as Lerk or Fade, then you are doing something extremely wrong and should stop doing that thing immediately.
As for the rest, I think you are misunderstanding the problem. The problem is not that whips hit grenades back. A major role of the whip is indeed to hit grenades back. The problem is that it is just too good at it.
Imagine there was a marine structure that hit bile bombs back. No problem right? Just get skulks to go in and destroy it. Well what if they build it in their base? Or in the middle of an outpost. Well, that is essentially untouchable by skulks, so it can't be destroyed. Sure, an Onos can destroy it easily, and then take out the rest of the base, but bile bomb was <i>made </i>to destroy structures and bases, and now this one structure makes bile bomb completely useless at doing what it was designed to do?
Two whips with some crags around will never be taken by a squad of marines. Not as long as the aliens have any clue of what they are doing. Now, the grenade launcher, a weapon that is meant to destroy structures, is rendered completely useless, and the only thing that can clear out the fortification is ARCs.
Sure, let the whips hit back grenades. Hell, if a marine is firing grenades in from a whole room away, he shouldn't just be able to destroy everything you have without risking anything. But if a marine is standing 5 feet away from a whip, firing grenades directly into it, that whip should not hit every single one back without a problem. That is just too good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think it's enough that the riposted grenades don't switch team, like pyro reflected grenades/rockets in tf2.
as someone said earlier the 'too good against GL' argument really sounds like "wtf scissors too good against rock!!". it's an immobile structure, you could run around it and punish areas without whip coverage. alternatively you could spam grenades at the whip; allowing your grenade detonations to protect your team as they kill the whip.
if you're alone against 10 whips with crags, why the hell did you elect to buy a grenade launcher?
<!--quoteo(post=2035700:date=Nov 27 2012, 09:19 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 27 2012, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035700"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you find yourself dying to GLs as Lerk or Fade, then you are doing something extremely wrong and should stop doing that thing immediately.
As for the rest, I think you are misunderstanding the problem. The problem is not that whips hit grenades back. A major role of the whip is indeed to hit grenades back. The problem is that it is just too good at it.
Imagine there was a marine structure that hit bile bombs back. No problem right? Just get skulks to go in and destroy it. Well what if they build it in their base? Or in the middle of an outpost. Well, that is essentially untouchable by skulks, so it can't be destroyed. Sure, an Onos can destroy it easily, and then take out the rest of the base, but bile bomb was <i>made </i>to destroy structures and bases, and now this one structure makes bile bomb completely useless at doing what it was designed to do?
Two whips with some crags around will never be taken by a squad of marines. Not as long as the aliens have any clue of what they are doing. Now, the grenade launcher, a weapon that is meant to destroy structures, is rendered completely useless, and the only thing that can clear out the fortification is ARCs.
Sure, let the whips hit back grenades. Hell, if a marine is firing grenades in from a whole room away, he shouldn't just be able to destroy everything you have without risking anything. But if a marine is standing 5 feet away from a whip, firing grenades directly into it, that whip should not hit every single one back without a problem. That is just too good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Wow, when was the last time you actually <i>played</i> this game?
I don't think anyone is claiming what's in that video *isn't* wrong. But most people think the "whips do it too well" argument is an asinine whiny load of trash.
I was an alien commander last night. I built up 3 crags, 2 whips, and a shift right outside of a marine base. Also there was a gorge protecting it and a skulk. One marine was just complaining constantly as he just kept TRYING to shoot grenades at it. He just kept trying and trying then was screaming OP OP OP and that we have no skill (because grenade launchers is an "endgame" weapon and hereby must destroy everything, right?). Then one marine brought a flamethrower. Down went the forward base...and rather quickly. Even an ARC would have done the job.
<i>Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.</i> -Albert Einstein
There are such things as hard counters in games. Don't keep smashing your head against a wall, people.
I do believe that whips hitting grenades through walls needs to be fixed, however.
I think what is more detrimental to GLs, and the marine team as a whole, is the healing rate of crags. If a hive is defended by 3 crags and some whips, marines will have a very hard time clearing the whips (with lmg or sg), so the GL can fire at the hive. This forces marines to get arcs (didn't try the FT, but it shouldn't work too well i expect, since you need LOS, so capable aliens will prevent you from doing much damage).
The simple solution is a combat timeout for structures, so a whip that is attacked by 2-3 marines with lmg will die and not get healed while it's attacked. Same goes for the hive obviously. It's really a bad joke that 4 marines can't even damage the hive, when there are 3+ crags healing it, even if they constantly shoot.
Another point i'd like to add, is that crags imo (as well as other alien structures except the hive) are too vulnerable to arc attacks. Maybe the arcs radius needs to be shortened a bit, or their damage against smaller structures needs to be nerfed. But this is just my gut feeling, from watching 4-5 Crags die in 2 Arc shots.
I am sorry, if you are seriously arguing whips are OP you are just horrible at this game. The cost of a whip outpost is an unthinkable investment until you have all your major upgrades and rts and are unable to take a 3rd hive. Its wildly expensive for the benefit you get from it.
Even at that point, lets assume for a second that a FIFTY res investment in 2 whips and 3craigs was indeed invincible, then the marines could easily just go around the another way, and this massive investment that could have been a fade egg is doing nothing.
The fact of the matter is however that this investment can be killed, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread.
Besides, them marines are perfectly capable of locking down a position just as effectively. Do you know how hard it is to attack a position fortified with armory walls, mines and turrets (hint near impossible if defended at all).
TLDR; whip/crag outposts are really expensive, static defenses. These disadvantages more then outweigh their ability to counter the GL, which in nearly every other situation is an unbelievably excellent weapon in the hands of a smart player.
Comments
Checked the files again. I must have imagined it needing LoS. All it does is scan it's circle area of effect.
Well, there's something that needs fixed.
Aside from that, the whip is FINE.
^ Reported. Thanks
So yeah, go ahead and nerf Whips. It'll make the Alien team that much more ROFLStomp to even halfway lucid Marines.
To be fair, most Marine commanders are so horrible that they think GL's are the best thing since sliced bread, and might even research it before upgrades. That hardly seems like the failing of the Marines team, so much as a failing in the most important member of the Marines team.
In this case, might I suggest 'eject' if you aren't too busy raping the Aliens team.
(And yes, Whips do have other uses like being shifted in on top of a power node but those are end-game troll strategies for the <i>most</i> part.)
EDIT: LOL @ the video, looks like they do clip through walls. That's silly, yes, and it will be nerfed. I actually think it deserves to clip through walls for 15 T.Res and such a situational ability, but there's no doubt it's unintended. It looked like only the grenade reflect was hitting through walls though, rather than it actually doing damage to players through walls.
^ Reported. Thanks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a bug that should definitely fixed, however the whips ability to deflect the grenades coming at it or within radius of it should not be altered at all.
At this rate everything in the game is just going to become a useless novelty because of "balance"
Can you explain this sentence to me? I think something was lost in translation.
It was an aside reference to all the recent Alien nerfs, and I said it because it seems like every other forum topic is begging for yet another Aliens nerf instead of people asking for maybe a few Marines buff's instead.
The irony is that Aliens hardly ever win at all at top-level play, yet they are the constant victims of the nerf bat because of inexpierenced Marines commanders. That results in this exact thread, where there's an easy hard counter but people don't want to use it because they would rather kill five skulks in one shot with a GL, then come to the forums and complain that one particular structure stops them from single-handedly owning the other team <i>and</i> their structures. (And it owns structures too, outside of <i>one</i>. So there's that too.)
I just think it's funny, but also kind of sad since I loved playing Aliens commander before. Now it's just feels...useless and boring. I'm George Jetson, pushing that one stupid button for a living. That's hyperbole, but not much considering that up until end-game you pretty much have four life form abilities to upgrade, and four chamber upgrades, and beyond that you just cyst and replace harvesters. Drifters give you <i>something</i> to do, but at the end of the day it's far less of an active mid-game as an Alien Commander now.
All because Marines thought their toys were good enough, but the Aliens were OP. They were, but the Early Onos Nerf pretty much brought them in line. Many of the other nerfs to Alien structures on the heels of that change have been unnecessary, in my view. (Although the changes to Regen and Cloaking were needed as well. 3 seconds is a good place for OOC to kick in.)
Instead of worrying about how to nerf Aliens so that new commanders can win, how about they concentrate on making Marine command easier for new commanders to interface with in ways that leave the high-skill ceiling as a benefit to expert commanders.
There are no shortage of teeny tiny hallways in this game.
But really, this will work any time you have some height elevation over the whip: You fire the grenade, the whip whacks it at you, it bounces off you back into the whip.
Anyways, it still proves my point that whips are not a hard counter to grenades: Through careful aim and a bit of thought, you can "out-smart" the whip's grenade whacking ability in a surprising number of locations. If a grenade explodes near a whip, the whip and anything near it still takes damage. A hard counter would be having the whip use vortex on the grenades instead.
All that being said, I believe whips <b>should</b> be a hard counter to grenades. The fact of the matter is that any marine <b>not</b> holding a grenade launcher is a hard-counter to a whip.
I generally regret purchasing/researching GLs though, they're hard to aim, hard to fight with, not cheap, and they need the support of a flamethrower to actually kill things defended with whips. Why buy a GL at all? Just get a flamethrower. Hydras aren't scary enough to justify a dedicated anti-building weapon IMO, and everything else burns/dies without infestation. Something's gotta change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You use the GL to kill the skulks/fades attacking your ARCs and Exos ... and once they have killed the whips, the GL's can rule the roost.
But yea, if you are going to ninja a hive, you want a FT and jetpack. Fastest way to kill a hive as a single person.
But really, this will work any time you have some height elevation over the whip: You fire the grenade, the whip whacks it at you, it bounces off you back into the whip.
Anyways, it still proves my point that whips are not a hard counter to grenades: Through careful aim and a bit of thought, you can "out-smart" the whip's grenade whacking ability in a surprising number of locations. If a grenade explodes near a whip, the whip and anything near it still takes damage. A hard counter would be having the whip use vortex on the grenades instead.
All that being said, I believe whips <b>should</b> be a hard counter to grenades. The fact of the matter is that any marine <b>not</b> holding a grenade launcher is a hard-counter to a whip.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i dunno about that last sentence.
i've been instakilled a couple of times by cloaked bombard whips. they instantly strip 100% armor and 2-shot you... dead in 1 second :D
It wasn't declared a bug officially, but they actually said in the dev Q&As after or around 229 (1.0) that someone was specifically working on whips.
They used to be horrible before, flinging grenades into friendly structures, not flinging grenades at all, etc. Couple that with their near-uselessness, and you can tell how much they were used... At least they're reliable and worth 15 res for their anti-GL capability now. Keep in mind 15 res is still quite a lot. a 15-res whip and 2 crags is two arcs + 5.
^ Reported. Thanks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great, thank you.
15 res for something that gets killed pretty quickly by lmg fire is quite steep, 30 if it has bombard.
Oh no. Even with an armoury in the room behind, eventually I just stood there in stark disbelief ... magic whips! In a totally different map to that video.
What happened timing the grenade?
Oh no. Even with an armoury in the room behind, eventually I just stood there in stark disbelief ... magic whips! In a totally different map to that video.
What happened timing the grenade?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2s fuse. Two seconds. Bounce it several times, or get a flamethrower.
EDIT: Tested it. Grenades refuse to actually BOUNCE, and the timer is too long. Granted, as long as that line of sight thing is fixed, whips are fine.
EDIT: The answer is to pop the cysts with your pistol. The moment the cyst dies, the whip unroots. It doesn't wait for the infection to finish receding.
But yea, if you are going to ninja a hive, you want a FT and jetpack. Fastest way to kill a hive as a single person.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Every time I try using a GL to do that the fades come and thwack me :[
With a flamethrower I can be with the exo to help weld, can spray fire at it's feet to get skulks off it, and plus it hard counters the lerk gases. IMO an underrated gun. If I had to choose GL or flamethrower I'd take flamethrower every time.
That's not a richochet, that's a bounce.
But yea, if you are going to ninja a hive, you want a FT and jetpack. Fastest way to kill a hive as a single person.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
matso, check your pm's!
I always used to read the whip description and though it just didn't do what it is supposed to. It does now, and everyone loses their freaking minds.
You know what i find silly? That a GL is both a long-range building siege and anti skulk / lerk / gorge / fade weapon in one.
It's silly that one GL guy can take out a whole gorge clot/hydra nest with one ###### clip.
It's silly that 4 grenades completely clears out a hive of it's eggs and utility buildings like crags and shifts.
It's silly that by spamming some random grenades you can pretty much find shades and units that are 'cloaking' somewhere.
It's silly that ALL OF THIS is done for just 25 resources.
It's silly that if you actually finally DIE some other dip###### that killed the lerk/skulk that killed you picks it up, in a cycle that can pretty much repeat itself indefinably.
Sure you got killed a few times by your own grenades, Oh the humiliation is so big you whine about it like a pig on voice and force close the game.
You might then say Oh, but they don't have any other weapon than their pistol and can be singled out, Well you sound just as silly as you're trying to make gorges seem the anti everything when you're trying to kill a building or two. Besides that, jetpacks pretty much nullify that point into the floor, but that's a whole issue entirely.
Besides it's not like you can't attack different frontlines with your stupid weapon, and even if all frontlines contain whips? EMPLOY A DIFFERENT TACTIC.
So no, they really are fine as-is.
I always used to read the whip description and though it just didn't do what it is supposed to. It does now, and everyone loses their freaking minds.
You know what i find silly? That a GL is both a long-range building siege and anti skulk / lerk / gorge / fade weapon in one.
It's silly that one GL guy can take out a whole gorge clot/hydra nest with one ###### clip.
It's silly that 4 grenades completely clears out a hive of it's eggs and utility buildings like crags and shifts.
It's silly that by spamming some random grenades you can pretty much find shades and units that are 'cloaking' somewhere.
It's silly that ALL OF THIS is done for just 25 resources.
It's silly that if you actually finally DIE some other dip###### that killed the lerk/skulk that killed you picks it up, in a cycle that can pretty much repeat itself indefinably.
Sure you got killed a few times by your own grenades, Oh the humiliation is so big you whine about it like a pig on voice and force close the game.
You might then say Oh, but they don't have any other weapon than their pistol and can be singled out, Well you sound just as silly as you're trying to make gorges seem the anti everything when you're trying to kill a building or two. Besides that, jetpacks pretty much nullify that point into the floor, but that's a whole issue entirely.
Besides it's not like you can't attack different frontlines with your stupid weapon, and even if all frontlines contain whips? EMPLOY A DIFFERENT TACTIC.
So no, they really are fine as-is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you find yourself dying to GLs as Lerk or Fade, then you are doing something extremely wrong and should stop doing that thing immediately.
As for the rest, I think you are misunderstanding the problem. The problem is not that whips hit grenades back. A major role of the whip is indeed to hit grenades back. The problem is that it is just too good at it.
Imagine there was a marine structure that hit bile bombs back. No problem right? Just get skulks to go in and destroy it. Well what if they build it in their base? Or in the middle of an outpost. Well, that is essentially untouchable by skulks, so it can't be destroyed. Sure, an Onos can destroy it easily, and then take out the rest of the base, but bile bomb was <i>made </i>to destroy structures and bases, and now this one structure makes bile bomb completely useless at doing what it was designed to do?
Two whips with some crags around will never be taken by a squad of marines. Not as long as the aliens have any clue of what they are doing. Now, the grenade launcher, a weapon that is meant to destroy structures, is rendered completely useless, and the only thing that can clear out the fortification is ARCs.
Sure, let the whips hit back grenades. Hell, if a marine is firing grenades in from a whole room away, he shouldn't just be able to destroy everything you have without risking anything. But if a marine is standing 5 feet away from a whip, firing grenades directly into it, that whip should not hit every single one back without a problem. That is just too good.
The problem with your comparison is, that aliens actually struggle to get down marine bases. Marines don't. They have ARCs, EXOs, Jet Pack rush, GLs, Flamethrowers (that work like cysts-vacuums) all on top of there normal LMG-ranged-advantage that is enough to take down most of the alien infrastructure without great risk. You can't justify a nerf of the whips purpose with how bad it would be, if the aliens would need to fight against such a structure.
As for the rest, I think you are misunderstanding the problem. The problem is not that whips hit grenades back. A major role of the whip is indeed to hit grenades back. The problem is that it is just too good at it.
Imagine there was a marine structure that hit bile bombs back. No problem right? Just get skulks to go in and destroy it. Well what if they build it in their base? Or in the middle of an outpost. Well, that is essentially untouchable by skulks, so it can't be destroyed. Sure, an Onos can destroy it easily, and then take out the rest of the base, but bile bomb was <i>made </i>to destroy structures and bases, and now this one structure makes bile bomb completely useless at doing what it was designed to do?
Two whips with some crags around will never be taken by a squad of marines. Not as long as the aliens have any clue of what they are doing. Now, the grenade launcher, a weapon that is meant to destroy structures, is rendered completely useless, and the only thing that can clear out the fortification is ARCs.
Sure, let the whips hit back grenades. Hell, if a marine is firing grenades in from a whole room away, he shouldn't just be able to destroy everything you have without risking anything. But if a marine is standing 5 feet away from a whip, firing grenades directly into it, that whip should not hit every single one back without a problem. That is just too good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think it's enough that the riposted grenades don't switch team, like pyro reflected grenades/rockets in tf2.
as someone said earlier the 'too good against GL' argument really sounds like "wtf scissors too good against rock!!". it's an immobile structure, you could run around it and punish areas without whip coverage. alternatively you could spam grenades at the whip; allowing your grenade detonations to protect your team as they kill the whip.
if you're alone against 10 whips with crags, why the hell did you elect to buy a grenade launcher?
As for the rest, I think you are misunderstanding the problem. The problem is not that whips hit grenades back. A major role of the whip is indeed to hit grenades back. The problem is that it is just too good at it.
Imagine there was a marine structure that hit bile bombs back. No problem right? Just get skulks to go in and destroy it. Well what if they build it in their base? Or in the middle of an outpost. Well, that is essentially untouchable by skulks, so it can't be destroyed. Sure, an Onos can destroy it easily, and then take out the rest of the base, but bile bomb was <i>made </i>to destroy structures and bases, and now this one structure makes bile bomb completely useless at doing what it was designed to do?
Two whips with some crags around will never be taken by a squad of marines. Not as long as the aliens have any clue of what they are doing. Now, the grenade launcher, a weapon that is meant to destroy structures, is rendered completely useless, and the only thing that can clear out the fortification is ARCs.
Sure, let the whips hit back grenades. Hell, if a marine is firing grenades in from a whole room away, he shouldn't just be able to destroy everything you have without risking anything. But if a marine is standing 5 feet away from a whip, firing grenades directly into it, that whip should not hit every single one back without a problem. That is just too good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Wow, when was the last time you actually <i>played</i> this game?
^ Reported. Thanks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol yea this was like my experience with whips outside Elevator Transfer.
Watch the vid before all you people keep calling whips fine. XD
Best quote... EVER
Thank you for my new tag line.
<i>Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.</i> -Albert Einstein
There are such things as hard counters in games. Don't keep smashing your head against a wall, people.
I do believe that whips hitting grenades through walls needs to be fixed, however.
The simple solution is a combat timeout for structures, so a whip that is attacked by 2-3 marines with lmg will die and not get healed while it's attacked. Same goes for the hive obviously. It's really a bad joke that 4 marines can't even damage the hive, when there are 3+ crags healing it, even if they constantly shoot.
Another point i'd like to add, is that crags imo (as well as other alien structures except the hive) are too vulnerable to arc attacks. Maybe the arcs radius needs to be shortened a bit, or their damage against smaller structures needs to be nerfed. But this is just my gut feeling, from watching 4-5 Crags die in 2 Arc shots.
Even at that point, lets assume for a second that a FIFTY res investment in 2 whips and 3craigs was indeed invincible, then the marines could easily just go around the another way, and this massive investment that could have been a fade egg is doing nothing.
The fact of the matter is however that this investment can be killed, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread.
Besides, them marines are perfectly capable of locking down a position just as effectively. Do you know how hard it is to attack a position fortified with armory walls, mines and turrets (hint near impossible if defended at all).
TLDR; whip/crag outposts are really expensive, static defenses. These disadvantages more then outweigh their ability to counter the GL, which in nearly every other situation is an unbelievably excellent weapon in the hands of a smart player.