Whip baseball

Snypr18

The range and rate of fire for the whips dumb little "hit the grenade back" feature is way, way, way too good. Considering whips take about half your ammo to kill (especially when spammed up with a few crags too!) the only natural response is to get the grenade launcher to try and clear them out. But oh wait! One whip can hit back every grenade you launch faster than you can launch them, and even around corners! This is truly the best feature of NS2. Invincible (and invisible) sh1tholes of whips and crags in every doorway and around every corner. Every round, round after round.

At this point lets just remove the grenade launcher and replace it with a claymore sword please. It would probably be more useful and much more fun to use.

Rokiyo

<!--QuoteBegin-Snypr18+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Snypr18)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My scissors aren't working on this rock!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Have you tried using flamethrowers or ARCs?

Snypr18

"Rock is overpowered. Paper is fine." -Scissors

Flamethrowers are good and fine, but when you have to turn the corner to get line of sight on one of these marvels of engineering, you cant manage to get anything done before getting the hell whipped out of you.

Now I can understand the "hit back" feature. I thought it was cool at first. But come on, they reach way around corners even. It is not physically possible and just plain dumb.

JediPhreaK

If you can clear out the cysts from a room and wait for the infestation to clear the whips will automatically De-Root at which point you can grenade spam to your hearts content. I do think whips are a little too good though. Maybe limit just how many they can throw back in a given time, or maybe make it cost extra to return grenades.

Rokiyo

If we're going to delve into the nitty gritty of this, with careful aim you can still bounce a grenade off a wall near a whip and have it land close enough to blast the whip. I have successfully destroyed whips with grenades even after all whips started playing tennis. It requires extremely precise aim, and can backfire spectacularly if you're not careful, but it is doable.

What comes to my mind is that whips are currently the only counter aliens have to grenades. Smaller lifeforms are quickly killed off, umbra has no effect and crags go down quickly to a few grenades. Everything in this game needs a counter, and whips are the counter to grenades.

Whips themselves already have a pretty massive weakness: Bullets.

But failing that, if you really need to shoot them through walls, then it's time for your commander to roll out the ARCs. A single ARC can out-dps a Gorge's healspray. Two ARCs will very very quickly clear out an alien forward base with minimal risk to your marines.

Snypr18

<!--quoteo(post=2033998:date=Nov 24 2012, 10:37 PM:name=JediPhreaK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JediPhreaK @ Nov 24 2012, 10:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you can clear out the cysts from a room and wait for the infestation to clear the whips will automatically De-Root at which point you can grenade spam to your hearts content. I do think whips are a little too good though. Maybe limit just how many they can throw back in a given time, or maybe make it cost extra to return grenades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That sounds good in theory, but getting damage on the cysts back behind the whips is next to impossible if the khamm is at least semi competent. Plus with the rate at which cysts can be spammed into a room any khamm paying attention would put an end to this.

<!--quoteo(post=2034001:date=Nov 24 2012, 10:39 PM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ Nov 24 2012, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034001"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everything in this game needs a counter, and whips are the counter to grenades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I would argue that they dont just counter grenades, they render them completely useless. And actually turn them against the marines in the process.

I dont think grenade batting should be removed, I think it needs AT LEAST the range reduced.

JediPhreaK

Its not perfect, but its doable if you have a few jetpack marines with flamethrowers. You'd be surprised how fast you can clear out huge numbers of cysts. Of course its not going to be good if there are like 20 whips.

Snypr18

Example video. The marine has to sacrifice 25 res and direct combat capability in order to have the grenade launcher and one whip renders it nearly useless.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GlQZXY8EUg&feature=youtu.be" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GlQZXY8EUg...eature=youtu.be</a>

elodea

<!--quoteo(post=2034018:date=Nov 25 2012, 04:08 PM:name=Snypr18)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Snypr18 @ Nov 25 2012, 04:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034018"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I mean come on. This is just dumb. The marine has to sacrifice 25 res and direct combat capability in order to have the grenade launcher and one whip renders it nearly useless.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GlQZXY8EUg&feature=youtu.be" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GlQZXY8EUg...eature=youtu.be</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then have two glers.

I'd be more concerned about infestation spikes and the ability to instantly cause grenades to explode infront of a glers face than i would be about whips.

Snypr18

<!--quoteo(post=2034020:date=Nov 24 2012, 11:11 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 24 2012, 11:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034020"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then have two glers.

I'd be more concerned about infestation spikes and the ability to instantly cause grenades to explode infront of a glers face than i would be about whips.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

When you are facing down 4 or 6 whips, you would have to have so many launchers that half the marine team would be no good for direct combat whatsoever.

elodea

<!--quoteo(post=2034022:date=Nov 25 2012, 04:14 PM:name=Snypr18)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Snypr18 @ Nov 25 2012, 04:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034022"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When you are facing down 4 or 6 whips, you would have to have so many launchers that half the marine team would be no good for direct combat whatsoever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
then arc? =D.

Also, i'm pretty sure whip whacking still doesn't 'stack' very well. One grenade can cause all the whips to try and whack it away, so you don't get too much benefit from multiple whips.

*I'm ok with whip whack speed only because i hate gl spam in the first place. You're right though, whip whack speed may potentially be too fast in terms of balance.

HeatSurge

Whips NEED to be this good. If they weren't, how would you propose that aliens counter grenade launchers?

Whips are still stupidly expensive for what little they do, and they need to perform well for how much they cost. Meanwhile, they still go down to 4 AR mags (I think, or 5?) when left unsupported.

Techercizer

FTs can hit infestation farther off than whips can whack, from what I can tell. Just burn out to goo and watch them unroot if you're actually stuck, or just set them all on fire and unleash your grenades.

Orz

It's entirely fine, stop complaining. Also it's nowhere near as common as "in every doorway and around every corner. Every round, round after round."

They were bad before they got fixed, and now they're how they should be. Play the game better.

Mavick

GL's complaining about whips. OMG..........



Yeah, GL is the only weapon out there isn't it!?!?!?!?

ogz

I saw an awesome placement of whip once where they whip grenades thru the wall lol

Snypr18

<!--quoteo(post=2034033:date=Nov 24 2012, 11:33 PM:name=Orz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Orz @ Nov 24 2012, 11:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034033"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's entirely fine, stop complaining. Also it's nowhere near as common as "in every doorway and around every corner. Every round, round after round."

They were bad before they got fixed, and now they're how they should be. Play the game better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It sounds like you have yet to play with some khamms who really exploit whips and crags.

HeatSurge

It sounds like you have yet to play with some marine teams who are actually good.

Imbalanxd

I find the whips to be retardedly efficient at knocking grenades back now. Firing all 4 grenades from literally JUST out of whip melee range and it knocks every single one right back at me. That is just stupid in my opinion.

Rokiyo

Alien commanders who employ large numbers of whips and crags are easily defeated by marine commanders who employ just <i>two</i> ARCs.

Imbalanxd

<!--quoteo(post=2034051:date=Nov 25 2012, 07:52 AM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ Nov 25 2012, 07:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien commanders who employ large numbers of whips and crags are easily defeated by marine commanders who employ just <i>two</i> ARCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Perhaps, but currently you have this undesirable situation which has arisen since the buff of whips and crags. It is caused because crags and whips are so effective for their cost (more crags than whips though), and because ARCs are the only things which can effectively kill a crag spammed outpost.

The situation is alien comms spamming crags, and marine coms spamming ARCs, in 99% of all games.

Rokiyo

<!--quoteo(post=2034053:date=Nov 25 2012, 04:06 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 25 2012, 04:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034053"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is caused because crags and whips are so effective<b> for their cost</b> (more crags than whips though)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Perhaps the real issue here is that "their cost" is effectively nil in many public-server late-game scenarios: All too often the alien comm ends up having more resources than he can spend because they've had free reign over 5 or 6 harvesters for 20 minutes or more.

Snypr18

<!--quoteo(post=2034049:date=Nov 24 2012, 11:50 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 24 2012, 11:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034049"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It sounds like you have yet to play with some marine teams who are actually good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The skill of the marine team has little to do with how incredibly wrong this is:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5A72YnPbhU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5A72YnPbhU</a>

But good try!

Techercizer

<!--quoteo(post=2034078:date=Nov 25 2012, 01:00 AM:name=Snypr18)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Snypr18 @ Nov 25 2012, 01:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The skill of the marine team has little to do with how incredibly wrong this is:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5A72YnPbhU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5A72YnPbhU</a>

But good try!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously a bug, and a known one.

kalv

The range of the whip is buggy. Sometimes it bounces grenades not even close to the whip.

Imbalanxd

<!--quoteo(post=2034056:date=Nov 25 2012, 08:10 AM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ Nov 25 2012, 08:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034056"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps the real issue here is that "their cost" is effectively nil in many public-server late-game scenarios: All too often the alien comm ends up having more resources than he can spend because they've had free reign over 5 or 6 harvesters for 20 minutes or more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I'm not talking late game. Drop a hive, then drop 3 crags next to it. That effectively makes the hive invincible to anything but ARCs. Without whips, it may go down after quite a beating from grenade launchers, but that's assuming no aliens are their to just eat the GLs.

KuddlyKalli

<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->There are definitely issues with whips hitting grenades at an absurd range and through walls/around corners. Cooldown may also need a slight tweak.

But it's important to note that without this ability, a single GL could annihilate an entire hive room with ease. Something I'd love to see is having grenades that are thrown back do damage to <b>all</b> marines, not just the one who fired it.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

Mavick

<!--quoteo(post=2034078:date=Nov 25 2012, 01:00 AM:name=Snypr18)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Snypr18 @ Nov 25 2012, 01:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The skill of the marine team has little to do with how incredibly wrong this is:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5A72YnPbhU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5A72YnPbhU</a>

But good try!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I'm trying to figure out what's wrong there, you not pulling out your pistol to kill it, or futilely trying to launch grenades at it nearly killing yourself. Derp factor 10!

Mavick

This seriously has to be the most asinine grip thread I've ever seen, since EVERY SINGLE WEAPON in the marine arsenal beats whip, EXCEPT 1! Oh, and it's the GL, go figure.


LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

Rokiyo

I tried to rifle-butt a whip to death and it killed me. Please nerf. :P

Mavick

I know man, whips are so OP at 15 res each, plus another 10 res per crag. God forbid that 25 res GL can't solo the map.