IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=2026895:date=Nov 17 2012, 07:14 AM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Nov 17 2012, 07:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026895"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So is the lerk buff purely from the angle of making spores viable in competetive?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Damn, I was hoping the shotgun adjustments would go in first before making HP/armor changes
The problem, to me, is tooling. Sounds weird.. but actually, the lack of a single, datadriven place for people to discuss, with good (Highcharts/d3.js - based) visualisations of data that is from ns2stats.org, or better UWEs own statistics backend. And the possibilities to link to any charts. See <a href="http://square.github.com/crossfilter/" target="_blank">http://square.github.com/crossfilter/</a> for an example of what would be nice to have, or some of the other visualizations here: <a href="https://github.com/mbostock/d3/wiki/Gallery" target="_blank">https://github.com/mbostock/d3/wiki/Gallery</a>. The important part is the linking within crossfilter. With that, you can start discussions. With discussions, you can bring things to the devs. It was said they don't open their statistics backend for performance reasons, but that is.. a strange argument. A 1 min serverside cache, and the load goes down by orders of magintude.. this is statistics, not realtime data. Even a "updated once an hour" dataset would be more than enough. I suspect another reason is to circumvent sh*tstorms from the community. But hey, we have ns2stats.. which of course was blacklisted as any other mod due to technical reasons short before launch. Yeah.. so only like 10 (edit: 51.. not too shabby) servers running it. That being said, how much data does ns2stats expose via a JSON API? Does it expose that, at all, to the public? In a discoverable, documented way, I mean.
edit: I mean, c'mon, how cool would it be to have a Crossfilter stat with matches where marine com got in chair > 2 minutes, or Khamm, or in which a certain technology cam ein before x minutes. And all the while you move the slider, the bars for "length of play" move on the "game ends at" timescale. And the bars there would show colorings in both blue and yellow relative to win percentages. It's all there at our fingertips, we just need the data exposed.
<!--quoteo(post=2026843:date=Nov 18 2012, 12:25 AM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Nov 18 2012, 12:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026843"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So anyway, here's my balance team leaders wishlist: Grissi, Fana, Zeikko, Dragon, Rantology and Elodea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nah, i just troll the forums. Someone like yuuki would be better.
It's been said alot in the thread already, but really good balance teams are never going to be sustainable unless they have a strong two way relationship with the UWE lead designer. We can really only do so much on this end. Apparantly charlie was really open to feedback at Cologne so we might have a watershed moment, although the public suvery was a bit.. perplexing? Hopefully he realises we do want to help make his game better - that most of us don't suffer from a conflict of interest regarding pub vs comp gameplay experience.
Fixing the shotgun is not the key to fixing the lerk, people need to wake up and realize this... then we can stop having these needless changes with the lerk getting more and more HP so that it can tank more and more shotgun shots, its a support unit ffs... how hard is this to understand. Fix spores and make a decision regarding spores/spikes on hive1, and then you can adjust the HP back down, and the movement speed and skill cap back up. The shotgun may need some adjustments but those are small in comparison to everything else that needs tweaking.
Stop listening/making changes based on people who are just pubbing the game, they often do not know what issues really need fixing and what issues are just masked/created by the vast skill gaps that generally exist between the teams... Thats the first step that needs to be taken IMO.
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->So Charlie is asking for feedback... from the general public? As opposed to a handful of veteran players who play in comps and pub games, who can identify the core issues that need attention? :\
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Balance by committee usually doesn't work. Its like having multiple artists work on a painting, it can work in theory, but typically ends in disaster as people clash over style and concept. Add in the drama that results as people who put in lots of work have their ideas rejected and its usually best not to even try it.
Charlie/UWE does and has taken balance suggestions/feedback from the community (both comp and pub), but it typically needs to be well reasoned with hard evidence showing the problem and/or solution. Its a lot of work with no guarantee of success, but that's life.
the current process of balancing the game has gone through and continues to go through is inefficient and at times irrational.
Seems like a lot of people simply believe that any kind of cooperation between community and developer in terms of balance could never work, makes me sad. It has never even been tried and it seems a big majority are just plain unwilling to even consider it. All I've ever seen is canned answers like "it would be really difficult" "it has been considered" "we talk about it sometimes".
The changes in Flayras new steam workshop mod to me illustrate a big disconnect between developer and competitive community.
<!--quoteo(post=2027476:date=Nov 18 2012, 01:27 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Nov 18 2012, 01:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027476"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Balance by committee usually doesn't work. Its like having multiple artists work on a painting, it can work in theory, but typically ends in disaster as people clash over style and concept. Add in the drama that results as people who put in lots of work have their ideas rejected and its usually best not to even try it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2025906:date=Nov 17 2012, 04:38 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 17 2012, 04:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025906"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are things that UWE want in THEIR game, and thats completely their choice. If people were to work with UWE regarding balance/mechanics, they need to understand what the vision for the game is, and help Charlie balance the game around what HE wants. Thats part of what makes that role difficult, and reduces the potential pool of people. You cannot just say remove X/Y/Z because I dont like it and it doesnt work well, you need to understand what he wants said features to accomplish/fix, and provide insight on how they can achieve those goals in a balanced, fun to play way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*this isn't a design team per say, but a balance team that makes sure we get post-beta quality patches. as per the OP, the time for screwing around with drastic changes every week/fortnight is over.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2027488:date=Nov 17 2012, 09:41 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Nov 17 2012, 09:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027488"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the current process of balancing the game has gone through and continues to go through is inefficient and at times irrational.
Seems like a lot of people simply believe that any kind of cooperation between community and developer in terms of balance could never work, makes me sad. It has never even been tried and it seems a big majority are just plain unwilling to even consider it. All I've ever seen is canned answers like "it would be really difficult" "it has been considered" "we talk about it sometimes".
The changes in Flayras new steam workshop mod to me illustrate a big disconnect between developer and competitive community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is why I stopped putting energy towards bringing up important issues directly to Charlie.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2027555:date=Nov 17 2012, 11:25 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Nov 17 2012, 11:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027555"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Buffing the Lerk to make it a bit more resilient against a shotgun makes it even <i>harder</i> to kill with the rifle... just sayin'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2027488:date=Nov 18 2012, 12:41 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Nov 18 2012, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027488"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The changes in Flayras new steam workshop mod to me illustrate a big disconnect between developer and competitive community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Yep, it makes it all too clear that while Flayra has access to UWE's internal stats, he rarely--if ever--plays the game himself. I understand he's busy with all sorts of things but this is exactly why we need a "balance team" to advise him on the state of the game.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Sr LanceRhythm is a LancerJoin Date: 2004-11-18Member: 32862Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
First of all, this post might not be interesting to all, but due to popular demand I will now make a brief statement of why I left the play testing group for UWE’s NS2.
For some of you that don't know me I have played NS since it very first came out and hosted community servers for over 6 years for the game and played with Skulkrush and Devils-Talon in leagues. I was deputy EUPT for NS2 and quit after I felt I was being ignored and having my time wasted for over 1 year and a half.
I use to spend many hours of my personal free-time testing NS2 Builds before they came out to most of you guys. I also went down to Rezzed and was at the booth promoting NS2, taking off days from work. There was a host of different reasons for me leaving the play testing, but one of the major ones was because of decisions made by the developers during the making of the game, centring especially around the way balancing between the two teams were done and the way things were implemented. It was frustrating to me, to witness what I saw as a great disservice to a game which could be much better. And when approaching the developers concerning these issues I was continuously running my head into a wall, constantly being told we are just bug fixers and ignore balance. As a "play" tester it seems weird that we were not to comment on the gameplay, but alas, that’s one of the great illogical things of UWE management.
And let's face it, there's no good reason to spend one’s own hard earned free-time on a development team that does not take you seriously or the effort and hours of free work which they got from me and many other dedicated PT members. Now I will just make a quick list about more concrete things about NS2 that I find making a huge disservice to the successor of (imo) one the true greats of team play games.
These are the core reasons:
<ul><li>Changes were often put in 1-2 days before a build would go out live, often resulting in wonky builds and untested balance issues that were and often proved game-ruining for everyone who plays the game with any kind of competitive mind.</li><li>A fair few times play testers wouldn't be told of changes that were made and didn't know what to test and inspect within the game, leading to a highly inefficient way of game testing.</li><li>Alien abilities and upgrades were implemented because they sound cool or seen it in a movie (Feint + Vortex + Lerk Bile bomb + Hyper mutation etc.)</li><li>Changes were implemented based upon looking at spread sheet values instead of actual gameplay (Sorry but looking at a spread sheet doesn't tell you how a game played out or how to balance it)</li><li>As I became more involved in the daily process of making NS2, it dawned on me, that there was no overall gameplay design or direction. There was no concretely mapped out vision or idea of how the game was actually going to work. For example the process of tier 1 to Tier 3, abilities and counter measures between the teams and how it should all seamlessly fit together. All the upgrades were planned around "Wouldn't this be cool to add" instead of looking at how it will work within the game plan and design. Many design changes and new "ideas" were implemented and being worked on too far into the actual development phase which led, in my view, to a dysfunctional gameplay experience.</li><li>Changes were also made because some of the devs got continuously killed during a PT. If they kept getting killed by a Lerk (Yes that’s you Saba) that was too good they would nerf the Lerk because they felt they didn't stand a chance, when the fact of the matter was the imbalance did not stem from design, but from players individual skill. The way it's meant to be.</li><li>As a counter-measure to this dysfunctionality, the PT Leads requested support to create an official balance team comprised of some of the best NS1 and NS2 players and this idea was shot down.</li><li>Every day for over 10 months the PT leads compiled a list after each build containing balance issues and bug fixes that need to be implemented or changed, the bug fixes were looked at and almost always solved by the Masters Brian and Max (Sorry Andi you’re not included you caused most of the bugs!) but balance was ignored and shot down by Charlie or wasn’t around to look at it so nothing was done</li><li>We compiled a bi weekly digest for the devs to read listing all core gameplay issues and mechanics (Sorry Saba and Obby for having to spell checker those) and people like Grissi and few others did high level detailed Google docs and delivered these to the developers. Much to our dismay most of these insightful, well documented and intelligent analyses of the game were intentionally overlooked, (for whatever unsatisfactory reason that can be).</li></ul>
Most of the play testers tried telling Charlie a lot during games about balance issues or mechanics that don't work but it was largely ignored (I suspect this is due to him feeling threatened when people did not like his every idea or notion). And only after a patch was released and the community forums flamed up would something be done about it.
What the devs have done and gone through with Natural Selection 2 is amazing and astonishing for such a small group of people, they all put in a lot of work clearly displaying talent and commitment which I respect. Natural Selection 2 isn't 'that' bad, but it’s not perfect either, aliens should have had all of their Tier 3 ability’s and upgrades from 1.0 and there was over 6 months to implement it if the game wasn’t being changed or re-designed every month leading up to release and a balance team was implemented it could have all been avoided.
P.S. Implement a Balance Team
Now can the people that keep telling me to come back to PT and to post why I left and tell things the way they were, kindly leave me alone and stop messaging me ïŒ
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2028001:date=Nov 18 2012, 06:05 PM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Nov 18 2012, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028001"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Come back to PT Lance <3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I will try to seduce him with old videos [<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHjEdamE5Bo" target="_blank">ONOS</a> | <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgFxf5_YVP0" target="_blank">Bouncing balls</a> | <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfcBx6J-k2I" target="_blank">Hydras are cheaters</a>] that had him present as well!
<!--quoteo(post=2028023:date=Nov 18 2012, 02:23 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Nov 18 2012, 02:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028023"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because official support is easier and more empowering than trying to make something work while the Dev's ignore you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well obviously it's not easier when this entire thread is complaining about being ignored for years.
<!--quoteo(post=2028024:date=Nov 18 2012, 02:24 PM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Nov 18 2012, 02:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028024"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We have before, and it was going well but the reasons why going off and doing our own thing won't work is in the first few pages of this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because you splinter the community? That was the only post I saw on it.
We can't have comp teams playing a mod because it will splinter the already small community yes, also it leads to a bunch of branching balance mods that start to get out of hand which different teams prefer(or at least this is how it was beginning to look during one particularly troublesome patch). It's best to have key members give feedback not as individuals with opinions, but as representatives of different regions and teams with a solid grounding of testing and logic to help improve the game that everyone is playing.
Also most of us still like to play pub, and would enjoy the game more overall if it didn't have easily avoidable frustrating issues, some of which are more problematic in public play. So don't take this purely as a competitive team concern.
What does making a balance mod get us however? We get a mod that the majority of NS2 players will never see or play. I think what it comes down to is how a majority of us want the base game to succeed and benefit from well thought out, fun and balanced mechanics. Making a mod is kind of the quick and dirty fix to that.
I understand that you guys don't want to split the community, but history has shown us that you will always be ignored. It seems like it's still the best option to actually move forward.
<!--quoteo(post=2027982:date=Nov 18 2012, 01:33 PM:name=Sr Lance)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sr Lance @ Nov 18 2012, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lance's well written post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks for that writeup. I was really sad when I heard that you left the PT team and I can safely say it was great loss for them. Both from knowledge standpoint and how well the playtesting was coordinated. But I can promise you that your dedication and work at that time was not for nothing as the game did bring enjoyment to a lot of players. Hopefully we will see ns2 reach is true potential in the future.
<!--quoteo(post=2028042:date=Nov 18 2012, 02:47 PM:name=Huze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Huze @ Nov 18 2012, 02:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I understand that you guys don't want to split the community, but history has shown us that you will always be ignored. It seems like it's still the best option to actually move forward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> People keep trying because they know how much potential natural selection has. By creating balance mods that does not support the main game will only end up hurting the game on the long run. I'm sure that most players have noticed it already that there are few problems with the game, many of which were predicted over half a year ago. I do believe that many of these issue could have been prevented if UWE had a team of experience and knowledgeable players (competitive or not) to work with them. It does not matter how much we have been ignored up til now, what matters is what happens next. I'm pretty sure everyone here agrees that we want natural selection 2 to be as close to perfect as possible, otherwise this post would never have existed. With that in mind I think that natural selection 2 could grow even further with the aid of a good team.
<!--quoteo(post=2027982:date=Nov 18 2012, 05:33 PM:name=Sr Lance)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sr Lance @ Nov 18 2012, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First of all, this post might not be interesting to all, but due to popular demand I will now make a brief statement of why I left the play testing group for UWE’s NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What a bunch of bitter nonsense. I honestly had much more respect for you then this, Lance. <!--quoteo(post=2027982:date=Nov 18 2012, 05:33 PM:name=Sr Lance)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sr Lance @ Nov 18 2012, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And when approaching the developers concerning these issues I was continuously running my head into a wall, constantly being told we are just bug fixers and ignore balance<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is just a flat out lie. UWE has never told PTs that they are just bug fixers and to ignore balance. We have taken an immeasurable amount of feedback from our PTs regarding gameplay and balance, and made many changes accordingly. The problem is that people like Lance don't remember the changes we made based on their feedback, and instead focus on the changes we didn't make, and suddenly it is all "UWE ignores their PTs and their community"
In fact, I've been in meetings where Charlie actively sought out Lance's feedback, and after some lengthy discussions made changes directly as a result. <!--quoteo(post=2027982:date=Nov 18 2012, 05:33 PM:name=Sr Lance)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sr Lance @ Nov 18 2012, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien abilities and upgrades were implemented because they sound cool or seen it in a movie (Feint + Vortex + Lerk Bile bomb + Hyper mutation etc.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow. Just wow. #1, I don't think we've made a single change based off of a movie. #2, name a game that doesn't design around ideas that "sound cool". Of course we are going to continue to explore new abilities and features, and a pretty good starting base is "does this seem cool and fun?". But we ALWAYS approach the idea from a gameplay standpoint. Does this feature break the game? Does this feature add something new, or fill a role that we don't already have? Would this feature be too OP? Too time technically time consuming to implement? I guess it's a sin to try and get creative with abilities, such as vortex, to come up with something that is not yet another ability that simply does damage. <!--quoteo(post=2027982:date=Nov 18 2012, 05:33 PM:name=Sr Lance)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sr Lance @ Nov 18 2012, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Changes were often put in 1-2 days before a build would go out live, often resulting in wonky builds and untested balance issues that were and often proved game-ruining for everyone who plays the game with any kind of competitive mind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bugs happen, and with the frequency of our patching schedule, of course things would slip in at the last minute without an appropriate amount of testing. I am sorry if we messed up some competitive games of people playing in A BETA version of the game. Kind of what Beta means, you are signing up to play an in development build of the game.
I can't even bear to go through all the rest of these points individually. Such as accusations about changing the game because we got killed by PTs too often. Or ignoring the bi weekly PT digests (again, I've been in the meetings with Charlie and the PT leads where we went POINT BY POINT through these documents, and thoroughly discussed them).
Have their been communication issues? Of course. It is challenging to keep up with all the feedback coming from so many different places, and vastly time consuming to keep everyone informed as to the reasons for our decisions. We have many lengthy discussions in the office regarding all the pros and cons of PT suggestions, of competitive player suggestions, of community suggestions. And we make changes accordingly, but I can understand how from the outside looking in, it may seem like we are ignoring the feedback if a change does not happen right away.
We respected Lance, and treated him with respect. We welcomed his contributions, and it is unfortunate that he feels a completely different way about his time as a PT for us. But it is pretty galling to sit here and read such an accusatory and malicious post that has so little basis in fact.
Im gonna have to agree with Mendasps on balance changes happening to fast.
If something is completely overpowered/broken then it needs to change fast, but NS2 is the type of game that is going to have a metagame, people will figure out the most refined strategies from map to map and spawn to spawn, and this is the stuff that makes for a more competitive play and this needs time to grow, and its the players creating this, not the devs, but when changes happen so fast its hard for it to become refined because its always changing.
Comments
Damn, I was hoping the shotgun adjustments would go in first before making HP/armor changes
Hallelujah.
It was said they don't open their statistics backend for performance reasons, but that is.. a strange argument. A 1 min serverside cache, and the load goes down by orders of magintude.. this is statistics, not realtime data. Even a "updated once an hour" dataset would be more than enough. I suspect another reason is to circumvent sh*tstorms from the community.
But hey, we have ns2stats.. which of course was blacklisted as any other mod due to technical reasons short before launch. Yeah.. so only like 10 (edit: 51.. not too shabby) servers running it. That being said, how much data does ns2stats expose via a JSON API? Does it expose that, at all, to the public? In a discoverable, documented way, I mean.
edit: I mean, c'mon, how cool would it be to have a Crossfilter stat with matches where marine com got in chair > 2 minutes, or Khamm, or in which a certain technology cam ein before x minutes. And all the while you move the slider, the bars for "length of play" move on the "game ends at" timescale. And the bars there would show colorings in both blue and yellow relative to win percentages. It's all there at our fingertips, we just need the data exposed.
Nah, i just troll the forums. Someone like yuuki would be better.
It's been said alot in the thread already, but really good balance teams are never going to be sustainable unless they have a strong two way relationship with the UWE lead designer. We can really only do so much on this end. Apparantly charlie was really open to feedback at Cologne so we might have a watershed moment, although the public suvery was a bit.. perplexing? Hopefully he realises we do want to help make his game better - that most of us don't suffer from a conflict of interest regarding pub vs comp gameplay experience.
Stop listening/making changes based on people who are just pubbing the game, they often do not know what issues really need fixing and what issues are just masked/created by the vast skill gaps that generally exist between the teams... Thats the first step that needs to be taken IMO.
Fade nerf inc?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Charlie/UWE does and has taken balance suggestions/feedback from the community (both comp and pub), but it typically needs to be well reasoned with hard evidence showing the problem and/or solution. Its a lot of work with no guarantee of success, but that's life.
Seems like a lot of people simply believe that any kind of cooperation between community and developer in terms of balance could never work, makes me sad. It has never even been tried and it seems a big majority are just plain unwilling to even consider it. All I've ever seen is canned answers like "it would be really difficult" "it has been considered" "we talk about it sometimes".
The changes in Flayras new steam workshop mod to me illustrate a big disconnect between developer and competitive community.
Evolve with the drastic weekly balance changes or die yo.
<!--quoteo(post=2025906:date=Nov 17 2012, 04:38 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 17 2012, 04:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025906"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are things that UWE want in THEIR game, and thats completely their choice. If people were to work with UWE regarding balance/mechanics, they need to understand what the vision for the game is, and help Charlie balance the game around what HE wants. Thats part of what makes that role difficult, and reduces the potential pool of people. You cannot just say remove X/Y/Z because I dont like it and it doesnt work well, you need to understand what he wants said features to accomplish/fix, and provide insight on how they can achieve those goals in a balanced, fun to play way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*this isn't a design team per say, but a balance team that makes sure we get post-beta quality patches. as per the OP, the time for screwing around with drastic changes every week/fortnight is over.
Seems like a lot of people simply believe that any kind of cooperation between community and developer in terms of balance could never work, makes me sad. It has never even been tried and it seems a big majority are just plain unwilling to even consider it. All I've ever seen is canned answers like "it would be really difficult" "it has been considered" "we talk about it sometimes".
The changes in Flayras new steam workshop mod to me illustrate a big disconnect between developer and competitive community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is why I stopped putting energy towards bringing up important issues directly to Charlie.
Here we go..
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Yep, it makes it all too clear that while Flayra has access to UWE's internal stats, he rarely--if ever--plays the game himself. I understand he's busy with all sorts of things but this is exactly why we need a "balance team" to advise him on the state of the game.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
For some of you that don't know me I have played NS since it very first came out and hosted community servers for over 6 years for the game and played with Skulkrush and Devils-Talon in leagues. I was deputy EUPT for NS2 and quit after I felt I was being ignored and having my time wasted for over 1 year and a half.
I use to spend many hours of my personal free-time testing NS2 Builds before they came out to most of you guys. I also went down to Rezzed and was at the booth promoting NS2, taking off days from work. There was a host of different reasons for me leaving the play testing, but one of the major ones was because of decisions made by the developers during the making of the game, centring especially around the way balancing between the two teams were done and the way things were implemented. It was frustrating to me, to witness what I saw as a great disservice to a game which could be much better. And when approaching the developers concerning these issues I was continuously running my head into a wall, constantly being told we are just bug fixers and ignore balance. As a "play" tester it seems weird that we were not to comment on the gameplay, but alas, that’s one of the great illogical things of UWE management.
And let's face it, there's no good reason to spend one’s own hard earned free-time on a development team that does not take you seriously or the effort and hours of free work which they got from me and many other dedicated PT members.
Now I will just make a quick list about more concrete things about NS2 that I find making a huge disservice to the successor of (imo) one the true greats of team play games.
These are the core reasons:
<ul><li>Changes were often put in 1-2 days before a build would go out live, often resulting in wonky builds and untested balance issues that were and often proved game-ruining for everyone who plays the game with any kind of competitive mind.</li><li>A fair few times play testers wouldn't be told of changes that were made and didn't know what to test and inspect within the game, leading to a highly inefficient way of game testing.</li><li>Alien abilities and upgrades were implemented because they sound cool or seen it in a movie (Feint + Vortex + Lerk Bile bomb + Hyper mutation etc.)</li><li>Changes were implemented based upon looking at spread sheet values instead of actual gameplay (Sorry but looking at a spread sheet doesn't tell you how a game played out or how to balance it)</li><li>As I became more involved in the daily process of making NS2, it dawned on me, that there was no overall gameplay design or direction. There was no concretely mapped out vision or idea of how the game was actually going to work. For example the process of tier 1 to Tier 3, abilities and counter measures between the teams and how it should all seamlessly fit together. All the upgrades were planned around "Wouldn't this be cool to add" instead of looking at how it will work within the game plan and design. Many design changes and new "ideas" were implemented and being worked on too far into the actual development phase which led, in my view, to a dysfunctional gameplay experience.</li><li>Changes were also made because some of the devs got continuously killed during a PT. If they kept getting killed by a Lerk (Yes that’s you Saba) that was too good they would nerf the Lerk because they felt they didn't stand a chance, when the fact of the matter was the imbalance did not stem from design, but from players individual skill. The way it's meant to be.</li><li>As a counter-measure to this dysfunctionality, the PT Leads requested support to create an official balance team comprised of some of the best NS1 and NS2 players and this idea was shot down.</li><li>Every day for over 10 months the PT leads compiled a list after each build containing balance issues and bug fixes that need to be implemented or changed, the bug fixes were looked at and almost always solved by the Masters Brian and Max (Sorry Andi you’re not included you caused most of the bugs!) but balance was ignored and shot down by Charlie or wasn’t around to look at it so nothing was done</li><li>We compiled a bi weekly digest for the devs to read listing all core gameplay issues and mechanics (Sorry Saba and Obby for having to spell checker those) and people like Grissi and few others did high level detailed Google docs and delivered these to the developers. Much to our dismay most of these insightful, well documented and intelligent analyses of the game were intentionally overlooked, (for whatever unsatisfactory reason that can be).</li></ul>
Most of the play testers tried telling Charlie a lot during games about balance issues or mechanics that don't work but it was largely ignored (I suspect this is due to him feeling threatened when people did not like his every idea or notion). And only after a patch was released and the community forums flamed up would something be done about it.
What the devs have done and gone through with Natural Selection 2 is amazing and astonishing for such a small group of people, they all put in a lot of work clearly displaying talent and commitment which I respect. Natural Selection 2 isn't 'that' bad, but it’s not perfect either, aliens should have had all of their Tier 3 ability’s and upgrades from 1.0 and there was over 6 months to implement it if the game wasn’t being changed or re-designed every month leading up to release and a balance team was implemented it could have all been avoided.
P.S. Implement a Balance Team
Now can the people that keep telling me to come back to PT and to post why I left and tell things the way they were, kindly leave me alone and stop messaging me ïŒ
pls
Why haven't we made a community balance mod yet?
I will try to seduce him with old videos [<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHjEdamE5Bo" target="_blank">ONOS</a> | <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgFxf5_YVP0" target="_blank">Bouncing balls</a> | <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfcBx6J-k2I" target="_blank">Hydras are cheaters</a>] that had him present as well!
Good post btw Lancer :)
Well obviously it's not easier when this entire thread is complaining about being ignored for years.
<!--quoteo(post=2028024:date=Nov 18 2012, 02:24 PM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Nov 18 2012, 02:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028024"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We have before, and it was going well but the reasons why going off and doing our own thing won't work is in the first few pages of this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because you splinter the community? That was the only post I saw on it.
Also most of us still like to play pub, and would enjoy the game more overall if it didn't have easily avoidable frustrating issues, some of which are more problematic in public play. So don't take this purely as a competitive team concern.
Edit: Edited all the things.
Thanks for that writeup. I was really sad when I heard that you left the PT team and I can safely say it was great loss for them. Both from knowledge standpoint and how well the playtesting was coordinated. But I can promise you that your dedication and work at that time was not for nothing as the game did bring enjoyment to a lot of players. Hopefully we will see ns2 reach is true potential in the future.
<!--quoteo(post=2028042:date=Nov 18 2012, 02:47 PM:name=Huze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Huze @ Nov 18 2012, 02:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I understand that you guys don't want to split the community, but history has shown us that you will always be ignored. It seems like it's still the best option to actually move forward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People keep trying because they know how much potential natural selection has. By creating balance mods that does not support the main game will only end up hurting the game on the long run. I'm sure that most players have noticed it already that there are few problems with the game, many of which were predicted over half a year ago. I do believe that many of these issue could have been prevented if UWE had a team of experience and knowledgeable players (competitive or not) to work with them.
It does not matter how much we have been ignored up til now, what matters is what happens next. I'm pretty sure everyone here agrees that we want natural selection 2 to be as close to perfect as possible, otherwise this post would never have existed. With that in mind I think that natural selection 2 could grow even further with the aid of a good team.
What a bunch of bitter nonsense. I honestly had much more respect for you then this, Lance.
<!--quoteo(post=2027982:date=Nov 18 2012, 05:33 PM:name=Sr Lance)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sr Lance @ Nov 18 2012, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And when approaching the developers concerning these issues I was continuously running my head into a wall, constantly being told we are just bug fixers and ignore balance<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is just a flat out lie. UWE has never told PTs that they are just bug fixers and to ignore balance. We have taken an immeasurable amount of feedback from our PTs regarding gameplay and balance, and made many changes accordingly. The problem is that people like Lance don't remember the changes we made based on their feedback, and instead focus on the changes we didn't make, and suddenly it is all "UWE ignores their PTs and their community"
In fact, I've been in meetings where Charlie actively sought out Lance's feedback, and after some lengthy discussions made changes directly as a result.
<!--quoteo(post=2027982:date=Nov 18 2012, 05:33 PM:name=Sr Lance)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sr Lance @ Nov 18 2012, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien abilities and upgrades were implemented because they sound cool or seen it in a movie (Feint + Vortex + Lerk Bile bomb + Hyper mutation etc.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow. Just wow. #1, I don't think we've made a single change based off of a movie. #2, name a game that doesn't design around ideas that "sound cool". Of course we are going to continue to explore new abilities and features, and a pretty good starting base is "does this seem cool and fun?". But we ALWAYS approach the idea from a gameplay standpoint. Does this feature break the game? Does this feature add something new, or fill a role that we don't already have? Would this feature be too OP? Too time technically time consuming to implement? I guess it's a sin to try and get creative with abilities, such as vortex, to come up with something that is not yet another ability that simply does damage.
<!--quoteo(post=2027982:date=Nov 18 2012, 05:33 PM:name=Sr Lance)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sr Lance @ Nov 18 2012, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Changes were often put in 1-2 days before a build would go out live, often resulting in wonky builds and untested balance issues that were and often proved game-ruining for everyone who plays the game with any kind of competitive mind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bugs happen, and with the frequency of our patching schedule, of course things would slip in at the last minute without an appropriate amount of testing. I am sorry if we messed up some competitive games of people playing in A BETA version of the game. Kind of what Beta means, you are signing up to play an in development build of the game.
I can't even bear to go through all the rest of these points individually. Such as accusations about changing the game because we got killed by PTs too often. Or ignoring the bi weekly PT digests (again, I've been in the meetings with Charlie and the PT leads where we went POINT BY POINT through these documents, and thoroughly discussed them).
Have their been communication issues? Of course. It is challenging to keep up with all the feedback coming from so many different places, and vastly time consuming to keep everyone informed as to the reasons for our decisions. We have many lengthy discussions in the office regarding all the pros and cons of PT suggestions, of competitive player suggestions, of community suggestions. And we make changes accordingly, but I can understand how from the outside looking in, it may seem like we are ignoring the feedback if a change does not happen right away.
We respected Lance, and treated him with respect. We welcomed his contributions, and it is unfortunate that he feels a completely different way about his time as a PT for us. But it is pretty galling to sit here and read such an accusatory and malicious post that has so little basis in fact.
--Cory
If something is completely overpowered/broken then it needs to change fast, but NS2 is the type of game that is going to have a metagame, people will figure out the most refined strategies from map to map and spawn to spawn, and this is the stuff that makes for a more competitive play and this needs time to grow, and its the players creating this, not the devs, but when changes happen so fast its hard for it to become refined because its always changing.