Lerk has gone from OP to UP so many times but I think it's actually about right now. You can't expect to kill a room full of marines but at the same time you can do a lot of harassment and area denial. Cling to a ceiling in a dark spot and just spike the hell out of marines and they probably won't notice you until they scan especially if you're directly above them. The only complaint I have is maybe lower the res cost to 25 or increase the armor by about 15.
That the Lerk performs well in pubs is not an uncommon experience. SabaHell and I often play together, and we both almost exclusively play Lerks. Evolve as fast as we can, and stay that way for the duration of the game. Though SabaHell has a great many more hours playing it than I do, I think she would agree that your experience in pub play (or even competitive play) is beside the point.
That you can pub stomp with a Lifeform, or even use it effectively against highly skilled players, does not alter the fact that its role and abilities are confused, and poorly designed.
Again, the Lerk has found itself in a well balanced position lately, so I'm not arguing that it needs to be changed. What I am saying is that, as a concept, its design is counter intiuitive and arbitrary. It has a niche, which is hard countered by the entirety of the Marine mid-late game tech advancement. Can you still play it mid-late game? Yes, can you still kill people? Sure. I do it all the time. But in terms of design and implementation, its laughably broken.
<!--quoteo(post=2021998:date=Nov 13 2012, 05:47 AM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Nov 13 2012, 05:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What do you propose for a tier 3 ability? This was actually discussed nearly to death amongst the lerk playing playtesters a while ago. :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would suggest some kind of pale Gas deployed the same as spores which causes marines to view things differently example a skulk could appear as a gorge tricking a marine, the effect would last roughly 15 seconds after leaving the gas cloud, the gas cloud would remain around for roughly the same time keeping up the debuff to it's 15 second time as long as the marine stays in the gas.
Some example of the gas effect.
Skulk in to Onos: the marines would see the skulk as a Onos the damage of the skulk would remain the same and it's hitbox would remain the same size as a normal skulks. lurk to skulk: Lurk would have a camouflaged effect on it to "gased" marines and they would see a skulk running along the ground. Fade to lurk: the fade would be camouflaged whilst a visible Lurk would fly roughly above it.
the effect of what creature turns in to what is random. so a Gorge could be seen as anything, just like any other creature. there hitboxs, damage values, health and armor as well as ablitys do not change, and they are simply visible as a camouflaged creature, sound is change to what ever creature they are camouflaged as.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited November 2012
While umbra is useful and should be a tier 2, with spores @ T1 (I'm the play tester that has been arguing for this as saba mentioned) Lasting all of 0.3 seconds is stupid for the energy it takes! Thats not "as you leave the cloud", thats just plain "after you touch it, 0.3 seconds".. While the effect deceivingly lasts 5
As for what to make tier 3? Shotgun spikes with crazy dps or that great support idea nak had of movement speed buff.. Doesn't really matter considering how often lerk's t3 is currently utilized (but that could just be the .3 sec discouraging..)
Oh yea, and I would trade all of this for 13 speed to come back.. 11 is useless and makes celerity a requirement.
The umbra cloud lasts for 5 seconds, and should be re-applying the effect each tick if you stay within the cloud. As for the drag effect it lasts for .5 seconds after leaving the cloud/it expires.
I sort of get what Metal is getting at but it just takes some adapting too.
During the beta things changed so much we had to adapt and change tactics with each life form on a regular basis. This time last year the spikes were so inaccurate that you couldn't hit anything unless it was right next to you, now they are much more accurate and the spread much closer together . The spores in some builds would kill any marine in a second and then they changed them to near useless. Now they are not so good for personal kills but good to limit visibility/do damage while others clean up and finish off low health a marines.
It once had bile bomb for a while which just didn't work and UW listened and gave it back to the Gorge.
I play Lerk quite a bit and the best way to use it is to soften up marines from a distance with spikes. It gets their health down which makes them more vulnerable when Skulks etc run in. If you are spotted though fly away straight away as you dont take much damage before you die. Never spore head on especially if they have SGs. Come from behind and spore over them while flying erratically and the spores will hide your retreat somewhat. Spore entrances as an area denial weapon.
If you see a lone marine. Soften him up with a few good hits with spikes and fly in and finish him of with a bite....very satisfying.
I went 29-1 in a game last night as a Lerk only and I'm no pro tbh.
<!--quoteo(post=2021862:date=Nov 13 2012, 03:23 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 13 2012, 03:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021862"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its the <b>flying </b>skulk with <b>projectiles </b>not being a different playstyle part. Kinda like how an Onos is a <b>huge </b>skulk that <b>charges</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A huge skulk that feels different as it moves and cant climb walls. It also has two different attacks, one being a normal attack and one being a massive smash that does extra damage to structures. Its other ability being a massive ground stomp that knocks marines over. The onos' sheer size is it's theme, it's what makes it feel different from the other lifeforms. You even have to be aware as an onos that marines can hear you from forever away.
The lerk can even attach itself to walls similar to a skulk. The only real difference between playing an effective lerk and an effective skulk is that you're flying around biting things instead of running around biting things.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=2022268:date=Nov 13 2012, 09:41 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 13 2012, 09:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The umbra cloud lasts for 5 seconds, and should be re-applying the effect each tick if you stay within the cloud. As for the drag effect it lasts for .5 seconds after leaving the cloud/it expires.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll be testing this when I get home today, but only a few weeks ago this was not the case. (before 1.0 and the new visuals) If this is so, then the only thing of concern is the cloud radius matching the visuals, because previously it was hilariously small.
its likely these changes slipped right by me though in the chaos that was launch week.
IIRC the visuals dont really match the gameplay effects, nor have they ever really. The effect on the model however should be relatively accurate, but AFAIK umbra gameplay wise hasnt changed much recently (i think they adjusted the drag time a little). I will say that the new umbra effect needs to not stack, as one cloud is pretty hard 2 see through, 2 or 3 and you might as well be looking at the sun.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
Umbra was changed to match the visuals a few patches before release (I was speaking to Charlie as he made the change). It is possible that the visuals are much larger now that they don't match up again.
So work as a team and get a second Lerk to fly left hall and you right... then they all die!
I agree about the spikes... it takes for flippin ever to kill a marine. If they ever see you then one or two bursts from them and you're dead... meanwhile your spikes are missing half the time and are so slow at killing it is very easy as a marine to know when to retreat... kinda like an onos with 2-3 marines shooting him.. he takes damage but can leave unless he's stupid.
Thats all fine but as I said the only changes i remember seeing was to the drag time, which was previously like ~2 seconds, and was changed when they switched to using the shader for umbra to .5. For pretty much every patch since ~218 I have looked over every single change to the LUA for various reasons... now its possible I have missed changes or forgotten by now but the main point is that umbra is not bad, just slightly confusing (radius doesnt match cloud size), and the fact thats its a t3 abiliity that often gets forgotten. Lerks real problems stem from the lack of a role, and more importantly atm IMO the timing of that role. I would say the biggest thing about Charlie's ideas regarding the lerk that confuses me is that while he wants crop duster spores to encourage active lerking and not sitting/roosting and sporing, adding spikes to the lerk again encourages that same behavior, and is IMO an even bigger encouragement to do it than ranged spores ever was. Arguably thats one of the current lerks most irritating points, is that you can hide somewhere or even sit out of view range, but still spike someone that has absolutely no idea what is hitting them or where it is. That coupled with the almost non-existant damage falloff and spread actually makes it possible to kill people that way quite effectively.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2022329:date=Nov 13 2012, 02:43 PM:name=CodeCowboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CodeCowboy @ Nov 13 2012, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022329"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So work as a team and get a second Lerk to fly left hall and you right... then they all die!
I agree about the spikes... it takes for flippin ever to kill a marine. If they ever see you then one or two bursts from them and you're dead... meanwhile your spikes are missing half the time and are so slow at killing it is very easy as a marine to know when to retreat... kinda like an onos with 2-3 marines shooting him.. he takes damage but can leave unless he's stupid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh have you even played lerk within the last month? Spikes are more accurate than before.. Damage was buffed slightly as well. It's all situational for spikes. How good is your aim? Are you spiking while dodging and being shot at?
IDEA: Why not leave spikes at the same damage but give them a stacking DOT (as an upgrade) Lerks already have a poison bite... why not give them poison darts too. Not a massive increase... just a little tweak here or there. or make the spikes poison only erode armor or something. The average player would be able to actually be way more effective... maybe...
Spikes already do almost exactly the same or more damage than a w3 rifle bullet (depending on range) to Marines, fire faster than the rifle, have a tighter spread.. all on a lifeform with more HP than a A1 Marine, and almost as much as a A3 Marine with carapace, and way more evasive potential. While shotguns tear up the lerk if your too close, and the energy limitations can make spikes against multiple marines difficult, the lerk hardly has a problem dealing damage to a single marine.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Yea I agree about stacking. More importantly though is effectiveness of an ability that requires the "mobile" team to remain in a box the size of a CC during combat... it makes umbra mostly a defensive ability, and lets be honest, if you have three hives and umbra you will need offensive capabilities more..
So the size of the cloud shouldn't matter as long as the drag time is increased. (i say 2 to 3 seconds)
Not really, just requires careful placement by the lerks. When fighting jetpacks it is a little different, but general good practice with umbra is to actually target the marines, trying to use it as a cover for escaping/entering is not really where it is best utilized. I would say having a drag time that long would make it so you almost always have umbra, if it were to be that powerful (block half the bullets still) i would keep it as a t3 ability.
Fixed: the problem with the Lerk is that it may not perform well in competitive matches no matter how well its played, so that can throw off a lot of posts in this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> uh... what? as Skie said, one competent Lerk can absolutely ruin pubs. however, in competitive games where people can actually aim, it struggles because Lerks have hardly any survivability. which I outlined in my post.
spike damage is absolutely perfect - it's not meant to be a killing machine, it's more of a harass mechanic to drain resources (at least early-game). lategame the Lerk is completely trash I would agree, but so is every alien life form. as I said, the entire game suffers from no scaling.
<!--quoteo(post=2022346:date=Nov 13 2012, 01:54 PM:name=CodeCowboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CodeCowboy @ Nov 13 2012, 01:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022346"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IDEA: Why not leave spikes at the same damage but give them a stacking DOT (as an upgrade) Lerks already have a poison bite... why not give them poison darts too. Not a massive increase... just a little tweak here or there. or make the spikes poison only erode armor or something. The average player would be able to actually be way more effective... maybe...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I posted this exact same idea in this thread a few pages ago. Everyone seems fine with the lerk having a gimped LMG though so...
A few differences between your idea and mine is that I posted a few more ideas that give bite and spikes synergy.
How can you say spikes are gimped compared to the rifle? They fire faster, do more damage, have a smaller spread, and you have infinite ammo (reasonably, energy management being probably the only drawback).
<!--quoteo(post=2022377:date=Nov 13 2012, 11:18 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Nov 13 2012, 11:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022377"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I posted this exact same idea in this thread a few pages ago. Everyone seems fine with the lerk having a gimped LMG though so...
A few differences between your idea and mine is that I posted a few more ideas that give bite and spikes synergy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> because the Lerk spikes currently fit the support / harass role perfectly. there is no need to change them except perhaps to scale them late-game against a3.
<!--quoteo(post=2022362:date=Nov 13 2012, 02:05 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 13 2012, 02:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022362"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spikes already do almost exactly the same or more damage than a w3 rifle bullet (depending on range) to Marines, fire faster than the rifle, have a tighter spread.. all on a lifeform with more HP than a A1 Marine, and almost as much as a A3 Marine with carapace, and way more evasive potential. While shotguns tear up the lerk if your too close, and the energy limitations can make spikes against multiple marines difficult, the lerk hardly has a problem dealing damage to a single marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm almost certain that spikes do not fire as fast as the marine rifle. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think a marine can unload a clip and reload before you've fired off fifty spikes. As well, the marine rifle is hitscan, I don't think it has any spread at all.
Likewise, with any rapidfire weapon, high mobility impacts your ability to track targets, especially when those targets are small and far away. Also, how does energy factor into limiting spiking multiple marines? The only issue is that you have more targets and can split damage between them. I'm not sure how this is any different from the limitation of the marine rifle clip size against multiple skulks?
<!--quoteo(post=2022363:date=Nov 13 2012, 02:07 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 13 2012, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yea I agree about stacking. More importantly though is effectiveness of an ability that requires the "mobile" team to remain in a box the size of a CC during combat... it makes umbra mostly a defensive ability, and lets be honest, if you have three hives and umbra you will need offensive capabilities more..
So the size of the cloud shouldn't matter as long as the drag time is increased. (i say 2 to 3 seconds)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umbra is effectively a mobile "partial cover" mechanic. Assuming that you MUST stay in the box is simply wrong. Deciding an engagement is about damage output, and having a unit that can continue to provide you a "CC sized" (also, Multiple CC sized) areas of damage mitigation is a very powerful tactical ability. Whether used defensively or offensively. The lerk doesn't need MORE abilities, it needs the abilities it has to make sense with its design and role.
<!--quoteo(post=2022381:date=Nov 13 2012, 02:20 PM:name=Princess_of_Power)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 13 2012, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022381"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->because the Lerk spikes currently fit the support / harass role perfectly. there is no need to change them except perhaps to scale them late-game against a3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My idea would not only work better against A3 marines but would add more depth to the lerk. As it is now theres really no point in using both bite AND spikes, its usually just one or the other depending on the situation. Skulks don't suffer from this as, as you should know being a classic player, if you get two solid bites on an unarmored marine you can kill them with a single parasite. Absolutely genius synergy that helps even out early game skulk play.
If the abilities of the lerk could be made more effective when used together (combining DoTs, an exo-esque autoaim on marines that have been bitten for a few seconds etc.) then it would add so many layers of playability to the lerk and would raise the skill-ceiling for the lifeform through the roof. Every professional team would have at least one maybe even dedicated lerk player.
What is so wrong with depth in the games you play? How could making the game more interesting possibly be a bad thing? Answer these questions.
Spikes are also hitscan, using a 2 degree spread to the rifles 3. A weapon being hitscan does not mean it has no spread/recoil, only that the hit trace is done instantly, and that the weapon doesnt fire projectiles that must collide with your target like a rocket. Spike fire rate is supposedly capped to 0.07, about a hundredth faster than the rifle last I timed it. Main issue with spikes and multiple targets is that your energy regain is static, where a marine can reload and has another 50 bullets, the Lerk can burst decent damage with spikes, but then that falls off and he has significant regain time before he can do that again (reloading the rifle is too quick IMO).
Spikes do not travel to their target instantly the last time I checked. This makes a world of difference. Just look at how hard it is to connect spit shots as the gorge (another beef of mine).
<!--quoteo(post=2022386:date=Nov 13 2012, 11:27 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Nov 13 2012, 11:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My idea would not only work better against A3 marines but would add more depth to the lerk. As it is now theres really no point in using both bite AND spikes, its usually just one or the other depending on the situation. Skulks don't suffer from this as, as you should know being a classic player, if you get two solid bites on an unarmored marine you can kill them with a single parasite. Absolutely genius synergy that helps even out early game skulk play.
If the abilities of the lerk could be made more effective when used together (combining DoTs, an exo-esque autoaim on marines that have been bitten for a few seconds etc.) then it would add so many layers of playability to the lerk and would raise the skill-ceiling for the lifeform through the roof. Every professional team would have at least one maybe even dedicated lerk player.
What is so wrong with depth in the games you play? How could making the game more interesting possibly be a bad thing? Answer these questions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> don't get me wrong. the Lerk definitely could use help. the reason why I dislike your suggestion is because its damage potential is currently fine. implementing your suggestions makes the Lerk more efficient at killing, but this would make the Lerk far too strong in the early game (where it is currently fine), and doesn't solve its lategame issues (survivability).
spikes do travel instantly, but they have a slightly slower ROF, so it's possible people are missing because of the time in between shots, leading them to believe it's not hitscan.
Spikes have been hitscan for a long time, was like back in the 150s or something (guessing) when they made the change as projectile lerk spikes were quite laggy for the servers since spikes fire quite quickly. Projectiles in NS2 do not seem to work well at all, with gorge spit being one of the worst. Its actually way way worse then it would appear, as they recently added a predicted projectile to the client that is so horribly inaccurate, but since you cannot see the real server side projectile by default, you do not realize how off it is.
I've never had a lerk trade efficiently with me with the lerk only using spikes and me only using an LMG. Granted I'm an above average player but if the skill levels are even its usually not worth it to use spikes.
The lower rate of fire could be the main issue since you have to be moving a lot to not get instantly wrecked as a lerk. But as you increase the accuracy, increase the damage, increase the RoF spikes start becoming more and more like an alien LMG. It would make a lot more sense to have the spikes even do a fraction of the damage they were doing before without needing to stay within line of sight of marines for too long a time. The synergy with bite would just be icing on the cake. Lower the rate of fire on spikes, lower the initial damage, make them almost parasite accurate and add a DoT that stacks with each connecting shot.
I don't want the spikes to do more dps overall, I just want spikes to be safer to use. I'd like them to do more damage overall if you're willing to risk getting that essential bite in and then use spikes or vice versa.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=Nov 13 2012, 11:23 AM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Nov 13 2012, 11:23 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Umbra is effectively a mobile "partial cover" mechanic. Assuming that you MUST stay in the box is simply wrong<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh... You cannot hide behind it, as you could in ns1 and as you would with anything Else considered to be "cover" not to mention it merely mitigates half damage unlike any real cover (that you can be any distance behind and it's still cover) ie you will take full damage standing behind a wall of umbra if you aren't in the box and it's effect transitioned off in half a second if you leave the box?....
So how is it that you don't need to stay in the box to use it?? I maintain: effective, yet fails at being the offensive cover that it was in ns1.. It works for onos and gorges, but fails for lerks, blinking fades and leaping skulks.
IMO it comes down to aim, and the fact that aiming as a marine at the lerk is easier somewhat then aiming as the lerk at the marine. From the little amount of testing I did do as a lerk when I was able to consistently track and land my spikes on a marine I was able to kill an A0 marine in a little over a second. As an estimate I would say I could do close to 100-120 DPS with spikes.
For umbra, your still talking classes that deal melee damage.. Thats why you umbra the marines, so that when the skulk actually gets into range to engage, he will be in umbra for the duration of the fight. Trying to use it as an entrance/exit to combat isnt how it should or does work.
Comments
That you can pub stomp with a Lifeform, or even use it effectively against highly skilled players, does not alter the fact that its role and abilities are confused, and poorly designed.
Again, the Lerk has found itself in a well balanced position lately, so I'm not arguing that it needs to be changed. What I am saying is that, as a concept, its design is counter intiuitive and arbitrary. It has a niche, which is hard countered by the entirety of the Marine mid-late game tech advancement. Can you still play it mid-late game? Yes, can you still kill people? Sure. I do it all the time. But in terms of design and implementation, its laughably broken.
Would suggest some kind of pale Gas deployed the same as spores which causes marines to view things differently example a skulk could appear as a gorge tricking a marine, the effect would last roughly 15 seconds after leaving the gas cloud, the gas cloud would remain around for roughly the same time keeping up the debuff to it's 15 second time as long as the marine stays in the gas.
Some example of the gas effect.
Skulk in to Onos: the marines would see the skulk as a Onos the damage of the skulk would remain the same and it's hitbox would remain the same size as a normal skulks.
lurk to skulk: Lurk would have a camouflaged effect on it to "gased" marines and they would see a skulk running along the ground.
Fade to lurk: the fade would be camouflaged whilst a visible Lurk would fly roughly above it.
the effect of what creature turns in to what is random. so a Gorge could be seen as anything, just like any other creature. there hitboxs, damage values, health and armor as well as ablitys do not change, and they are simply visible as a camouflaged creature, sound is change to what ever creature they are camouflaged as.
Lasting all of 0.3 seconds is stupid for the energy it takes!
Thats not "as you leave the cloud", thats just plain "after you touch it, 0.3 seconds".. While the effect deceivingly lasts 5
As for what to make tier 3? Shotgun spikes with crazy dps or that great support idea nak had of movement speed buff.. Doesn't really matter considering how often lerk's t3 is currently utilized (but that could just be the .3 sec discouraging..)
Oh yea, and I would trade all of this for 13 speed to come back.. 11 is useless and makes celerity a requirement.
During the beta things changed so much we had to adapt and change tactics with each life form on a regular basis. This time last year the spikes were so inaccurate that you couldn't hit anything unless it was right next to you, now they are much more accurate and the spread much closer together . The spores in some builds would kill any marine in a second and then they changed them to near useless. Now they are not so good for personal kills but good to limit visibility/do damage while others clean up and finish off low health a marines.
It once had bile bomb for a while which just didn't work and UW listened and gave it back to the Gorge.
I play Lerk quite a bit and the best way to use it is to soften up marines from a distance with spikes. It gets their health down which makes them more vulnerable when Skulks etc run in. If you are spotted though fly away straight away as you dont take much damage before you die. Never spore head on especially if they have SGs. Come from behind and spore over them while flying erratically and the spores will hide your retreat somewhat. Spore entrances as an area denial weapon.
If you see a lone marine. Soften him up with a few good hits with spikes and fly in and finish him of with a bite....very satisfying.
I went 29-1 in a game last night as a Lerk only and I'm no pro tbh.
Sal
A huge skulk that feels different as it moves and cant climb walls. It also has two different attacks, one being a normal attack and one being a massive smash that does extra damage to structures. Its other ability being a massive ground stomp that knocks marines over. The onos' sheer size is it's theme, it's what makes it feel different from the other lifeforms. You even have to be aware as an onos that marines can hear you from forever away.
The lerk can even attach itself to walls similar to a skulk. The only real difference between playing an effective lerk and an effective skulk is that you're flying around biting things instead of running around biting things.
I'll be testing this when I get home today, but only a few weeks ago this was not the case. (before 1.0 and the new visuals)
If this is so, then the only thing of concern is the cloud radius matching the visuals, because previously it was hilariously small.
its likely these changes slipped right by me though in the chaos that was launch week.
I agree about the spikes... it takes for flippin ever to kill a marine. If they ever see you then one or two bursts from them and you're dead... meanwhile your spikes are missing half the time and are so slow at killing it is very easy as a marine to know when to retreat... kinda like an onos with 2-3 marines shooting him.. he takes damage but can leave unless he's stupid.
I agree about the spikes... it takes for flippin ever to kill a marine. If they ever see you then one or two bursts from them and you're dead... meanwhile your spikes are missing half the time and are so slow at killing it is very easy as a marine to know when to retreat... kinda like an onos with 2-3 marines shooting him.. he takes damage but can leave unless he's stupid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh have you even played lerk within the last month? Spikes are more accurate than before.. Damage was buffed slightly as well. It's all situational for spikes. How good is your aim? Are you spiking while dodging and being shot at?
More importantly though is effectiveness of an ability that requires the "mobile" team to remain in a box the size of a CC during combat... it makes umbra mostly a defensive ability, and lets be honest, if you have three hives and umbra you will need offensive capabilities more..
So the size of the cloud shouldn't matter as long as the drag time is increased. (i say 2 to 3 seconds)
Fixed:
the problem with the Lerk is that it may not perform well in competitive matches no matter how well its played, so that can throw off a lot of posts in this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
uh... what? as Skie said, one competent Lerk can absolutely ruin pubs. however, in competitive games where people can actually aim, it struggles because Lerks have hardly any survivability. which I outlined in my post.
spike damage is absolutely perfect - it's not meant to be a killing machine, it's more of a harass mechanic to drain resources (at least early-game). lategame the Lerk is completely trash I would agree, but so is every alien life form. as I said, the entire game suffers from no scaling.
I posted this exact same idea in this thread a few pages ago. Everyone seems fine with the lerk having a gimped LMG though so...
A few differences between your idea and mine is that I posted a few more ideas that give bite and spikes synergy.
A few differences between your idea and mine is that I posted a few more ideas that give bite and spikes synergy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because the Lerk spikes currently fit the support / harass role perfectly. there is no need to change them except perhaps to scale them late-game against a3.
I'm almost certain that spikes do not fire as fast as the marine rifle. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think a marine can unload a clip and reload before you've fired off fifty spikes. As well, the marine rifle is hitscan, I don't think it has any spread at all.
Likewise, with any rapidfire weapon, high mobility impacts your ability to track targets, especially when those targets are small and far away. Also, how does energy factor into limiting spiking multiple marines? The only issue is that you have more targets and can split damage between them. I'm not sure how this is any different from the limitation of the marine rifle clip size against multiple skulks?
<!--quoteo(post=2022363:date=Nov 13 2012, 02:07 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 13 2012, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yea I agree about stacking.
More importantly though is effectiveness of an ability that requires the "mobile" team to remain in a box the size of a CC during combat... it makes umbra mostly a defensive ability, and lets be honest, if you have three hives and umbra you will need offensive capabilities more..
So the size of the cloud shouldn't matter as long as the drag time is increased. (i say 2 to 3 seconds)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umbra is effectively a mobile "partial cover" mechanic. Assuming that you MUST stay in the box is simply wrong. Deciding an engagement is about damage output, and having a unit that can continue to provide you a "CC sized" (also, Multiple CC sized) areas of damage mitigation is a very powerful tactical ability. Whether used defensively or offensively. The lerk doesn't need MORE abilities, it needs the abilities it has to make sense with its design and role.
My idea would not only work better against A3 marines but would add more depth to the lerk. As it is now theres really no point in using both bite AND spikes, its usually just one or the other depending on the situation. Skulks don't suffer from this as, as you should know being a classic player, if you get two solid bites on an unarmored marine you can kill them with a single parasite. Absolutely genius synergy that helps even out early game skulk play.
If the abilities of the lerk could be made more effective when used together (combining DoTs, an exo-esque autoaim on marines that have been bitten for a few seconds etc.) then it would add so many layers of playability to the lerk and would raise the skill-ceiling for the lifeform through the roof. Every professional team would have at least one maybe even dedicated lerk player.
What is so wrong with depth in the games you play? How could making the game more interesting possibly be a bad thing? Answer these questions.
If the abilities of the lerk could be made more effective when used together (combining DoTs, an exo-esque autoaim on marines that have been bitten for a few seconds etc.) then it would add so many layers of playability to the lerk and would raise the skill-ceiling for the lifeform through the roof. Every professional team would have at least one maybe even dedicated lerk player.
What is so wrong with depth in the games you play? How could making the game more interesting possibly be a bad thing? Answer these questions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
don't get me wrong. the Lerk definitely could use help. the reason why I dislike your suggestion is because its damage potential is currently fine. implementing your suggestions makes the Lerk more efficient at killing, but this would make the Lerk far too strong in the early game (where it is currently fine), and doesn't solve its lategame issues (survivability).
spikes do travel instantly, but they have a slightly slower ROF, so it's possible people are missing because of the time in between shots, leading them to believe it's not hitscan.
The lower rate of fire could be the main issue since you have to be moving a lot to not get instantly wrecked as a lerk. But as you increase the accuracy, increase the damage, increase the RoF spikes start becoming more and more like an alien LMG. It would make a lot more sense to have the spikes even do a fraction of the damage they were doing before without needing to stay within line of sight of marines for too long a time. The synergy with bite would just be icing on the cake. Lower the rate of fire on spikes, lower the initial damage, make them almost parasite accurate and add a DoT that stacks with each connecting shot.
I don't want the spikes to do more dps overall, I just want spikes to be safer to use. I'd like them to do more damage overall if you're willing to risk getting that essential bite in and then use spikes or vice versa.
Uh... You cannot hide behind it, as you could in ns1 and as you would with anything Else considered to be "cover" not to mention it merely mitigates half damage unlike any real cover (that you can be any distance behind and it's still cover) ie you will take full damage standing behind a wall of umbra if you aren't in the box and it's effect transitioned off in half a second if you leave the box?....
So how is it that you don't need to stay in the box to use it??
I maintain: effective, yet fails at being the offensive cover that it was in ns1.. It works for onos and gorges, but fails for lerks, blinking fades and leaping skulks.
For umbra, your still talking classes that deal melee damage.. Thats why you umbra the marines, so that when the skulk actually gets into range to engage, he will be in umbra for the duration of the fight. Trying to use it as an entrance/exit to combat isnt how it should or does work.