Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Only thing I agree with, reluctantly. As it needs testing. is a tad bit wider spread for spores so you can have your hallways as AOE and maybe Umbra spread/time. But other then that I do indeed advice you to cool of a bit and just think about this for a moment.
"Anything a lerk can do, a marine with jetpack and flamethrower + pistol can do 10 times better, with more protection."
That is just laughable and completely unfounded... Sure Lerks are not entirely fine, but they are far from underpowered... Now if this was about the Fade, then yes it does need a serious look at... And the issue might not even lie with the Lerk as you think it does, it is more an issue with other things like nanoshield and perhaps armory armor repairing...
I am actually a fan of the projectile spores, but that ship has sailed I think...
I think lerk is semi-viable as it is but needs a LOT of improvement in the effectiveness and originality department.
Spores are fine the way they are but spikes are extremely lackluster and bite is just like the skulk bite (which UWE wanted to avoid).
The reason spikes are usually not worth using in their current iteration is because you need to be either sitting still or EXTREMELY good to actually do good damage with them. LMG dps is just so high that sitting still isn't an option at all. You die before you can react. 30 res for a flying marine that doesn't do any damage really isn't worth it pre-spores.
What needs to be done might you ask? Spikes need to be more hit-and-run like the rest of the alien arsenal. Lower the rate of fire on spikes and make them apply a stacking DoT. Then lower the initial damage from bite and make bite apply the old DoT effect. This would add a whole dimension of playability to the lerk pre-spores. Do you apply the bite first then get a few spikes as you're flying away or spike first and then bite? And then once you get spores it will become a real master's challenge to efficiently combine all your DoT effects. Newer players will still be moderately effective but the true skill ceiling will go through the roof.
I've also had the idea to make the bite 'detonate' the stacks of spike poison, doing all the DoT damage from the spikes basically instantly. Another dimension would be added to spike/bite synergy.
And all of those things to think about while using only spikes and bite? I think we'd see a lot more pre-spore lerks.
I disagree Kouji. One pass can displace Marines and open them up to be murdered by Skulks, or two passes along the sides can turn the hallway into a cloud of death; that's pretty powerful as it is.
<!--quoteo(post=2021617:date=Nov 12 2012, 08:49 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 12 2012, 08:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021617"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That right there shows how poorly you understand the class. You need to spend some time learning to play it well before your criticize.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah OK, I concede that I got ahead of myself in my lack of patience at this time of morning. I've played lerk like I said a lot and realize that not ANYTHING a Lerk can do a marine can do better. I really wanted to say that a marine of that configuration "eats in" on the lerk's niche in some aspects while being tougher and FAR more potent. Like I said, really late here, sleep time for me.
<!--quoteo(post=2021624:date=Nov 13 2012, 11:56 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Nov 13 2012, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think lerk is semi-viable as it is but needs a LOT of improvement in the effectiveness and originality department.
Spores are fine the way they are but spikes are extremely lackluster and bite is just like the skulk bite (which UWE wanted to avoid).
The reason spikes are usually not worth using in their current iteration is because you need to be either sitting still or EXTREMELY good to actually do good damage with them. LMG dps is just so high that sitting still isn't an option at all. You die before you can react. 30 res for a flying marine that doesn't do any damage really isn't worth it pre-spores.
What needs to be done might you ask? Spikes need to be more hit-and-run like the rest of the alien arsenal. Lower the rate of fire on spikes and make them apply a stacking DoT. Then lower the initial damage from bite and make bite apply the old DoT effect. This would add a whole dimension of playability to the lerk pre-spores. Do you apply the bite first then get a few spikes as you're flying away or spike first and then bite? And then once you get spores it will become a real master's challenge to efficiently combine all your DoT effects. Newer players will still be moderately effective but the true skill ceiling will go through the roof.
I've also had the idea to make the bite 'detonate' the stacks of spike poison, doing all the DoT damage from the spikes basically instantly. Another dimension would be added to spike/bite synergy.
And all of those things to think about while using only spikes and bite? I think we'd see a lot more pre-spore lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> spikes has its own use. you can always snipe down power nodes or RTs or even marines from ceiling to the floor. e.g. the right hive on docking, forgot its name. shooting power nodes from there is really pain in the ass.
<!--quoteo(post=2021629:date=Nov 13 2012, 02:30 PM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lofung @ Nov 13 2012, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->spikes has its own use. you can always snipe down power nodes or RTs or even marines from ceiling to the floor. e.g. the right hive on docking, forgot its name. shooting power nodes from there is really pain in the ass.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes you can if you want to sit there for 5 minutes holding the button down. The damage the spike does is a joke and late game is completely pointless against Marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2021629:date=Nov 12 2012, 11:00 PM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lofung @ Nov 12 2012, 11:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->spikes has its own use. you can always snipe down power nodes or RTs or even marines from ceiling to the floor. e.g. the right hive on docking, forgot its name. shooting power nodes from there is really pain in the ass.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In all my time playing that has never actually been effective, only annoying to the enemy team. And once they get an idea of what you're doing the jig is up and if you keep trying you'll get shot down. Basically your time is better spent doing other tasks, such as supporting.
Lerks really aren't meant to destroy structures anyways, I see them being a type of assassin/support class. Umbra being the main obvious support ability but spores can support as well. My spike/bite synergy idea would make the lerk the assassin as well.
<!--quoteo(post=2021624:date=Nov 12 2012, 08:56 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Nov 12 2012, 08:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What needs to be done might you ask? Spikes need to be more hit-and-run like the rest of the alien arsenal. Lower the rate of fire on spikes and make them apply a stacking DoT. Then lower the initial damage from bite and make bite apply the old DoT effect. This would add a whole dimension of playability to the lerk pre-spores. Do you apply the bite first then get a few spikes as you're flying away or spike first and then bite? And then once you get spores it will become a real master's challenge to efficiently combine all your DoT effects. Newer players will still be moderately effective but the true skill ceiling will go through the roof.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This suggestion is so fantastic I actually welled up in tears.
Okay, maybe not, but really. It was good.
Make the attacks synergistic and the class gains depth that will be fun no matter what the score board says. I have been feeling the spikes need poison on top of their current base damage, a DoT that synergizes with bite would actually be fantastic as it requires skill. Definitely worth seriously thinking about.
Besides, I thought the tooltip on the loading screen said Lerk bite has a poison component? But I've never seen it actually hurt a marine beyond the initial hit so I guess it's broken.
<!--quoteo(post=2021631:date=Nov 12 2012, 11:01 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 12 2012, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lerk is fine if not 'pub op' due to spores. Could use with a little more flap force but thats it imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spores are indeed fine, its pre-spores that lerks need help. Read my idea
<!--quoteo(post=2021632:date=Nov 13 2012, 03:01 PM:name=Bullet_Force)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullet_Force @ Nov 13 2012, 03:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes you can if you want to sit there for 5 minutes holding the button down. The damage the spike does is a joke and late game is completely pointless against Marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Leave the heavy rt killing work to skulks. The point of lerking is harassing, flanking, and map coverage - e.g. force marines to leave positions and come defend an rt. You don't need to kill buildings in a timely fashion, you only need to present a reasonable threat.
<!--quoteo(post=2021635:date=Nov 12 2012, 11:03 PM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 12 2012, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021635"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This suggestion is so fantastic I actually welled up in tears.
Okay, maybe not, but really. It was good.
Make the attacks synergistic and the class gains depth that will be fun no matter what the score board says. I have been feeling the spikes need poison on top of their current base damage, a DoT that synergizes with bite would actually be fantastic as it requires skill. Definitely worth seriously thinking about.
Besides, I thought the tooltip on the loading screen said Lerk bite has a poison component? But I've never seen it actually hurt a marine beyond the initial hit so I guess it's broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bite used to have a DoT but UWE had to make a band-aid fix to the lerk and made it do weaker skulk bites again.
I just want the lerk to be fun and original to play, and feel my change would make it so. Thanks for your support
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2021625:date=Nov 13 2012, 03:57 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 13 2012, 03:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021625"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree Kouji. One pass can displace Marines and open them up to be murdered by Skulks, or two passes along the sides can turn the hallway into a cloud of death; that's pretty powerful as it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I said I'm a fan of the projectile spore, not that is should go in. I dunno, the lerk is a glass machingun. Those crop duster moves are dangerous for newbies, but the projectiles are Lerk roosting material of which I'm not a fan. Let's just say, I enjoy the crop dusting, but I would be open for a test with projectile spores to see what it does to the Lerk play style and effectiveness for NS2 gameplay :P
Making lerk spikes do DoT wouldn't make them any stronger or more useful than they are now; they'd do the same damage over a slightly longer period of time.
Unless you're expecting to significantly buff spike damage with this DoT, which would be just as dumb and broken as buffing spike damage like it is now.
I can tell by your writing style that you're not going to like this but it sounds like you're just plain bad at playing as a lerk. You may not be fully utilizing all of it's abilities. I have a guy on my friends list who consistently maintains somewhere close to a 15:1 k/d <i>ratio</i> as a lerk. That is not an exaggeration. Once I saw how effective he was I tried lerk (for the first time in ~40 hours of general NS2 gameplay) and maintained a 3:1 k/d ratio. Whenever a player on the alien team can maintain this kind of k/d ratio they're going to be valuable team member. Add in how fast the Lerk is and how hidden it can remain and you've got an amazing support and scout class that can also hold it's down.
I'm not telling you these k/d ratios to say we're gods of gaming... I'm telling you so you can see that a lerk is an effective class, it can kill marines, and it fits its role in NS2. Obviously, the above referenced player is an outlier, but reading through your posts makes it sound like a lerk is nothing but a waste of resources. That couldn't be further from the truth. The only possible explanation for your opinion is that you are not playing the class correctly and that you do not learn from your mistakes nor adapt your playstyle after consistently encountering failure.
This thread is a near perfect example of why balance discussions on forms <i>need</i> to be taken very lightly.
<!--quoteo(post=2021641:date=Nov 13 2012, 03:09 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Nov 13 2012, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...but the projectiles are Lerk roosting material of which I'm not a fan. Let's just say, I enjoy the crop dusting...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agree. Would be nice if the spread increased alot more with range so you have medium ranged spikes. Sniper roostlerking is pretty skilless and way too effective the way it is now.
*edit* not a fan of dot spikes for the same reason i'm not a fan of dot bilebomb. Damage should be upfront and fair with burst damage potential - you shouldn't be able to quickly spike marines and keep doing lots of stable damage while never really exposing yourself. Projectile gas lerk worked however because marines had the option to move out of it.
<!--quoteo(post=2021644:date=Nov 12 2012, 11:11 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 12 2012, 11:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021644"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Making lerk spikes do DoT wouldn't make them any stronger or more useful than they are now; they'd do the same damage over a slightly longer period of time.
Unless you're expecting to significantly buff spike damage with this DoT, which would be just as dumb and broken as buffing spike damage like it is now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong, theres a few big differences you're ignoring.
1. The lerk wouldn't have to stay in marine vision for as long to actually do damage with spikes. As it is now you have to hover around vulnerably in order to do any spike damage. Think about maybe popping around a corner, spiking a marine then popping back.
2. If bite got it's DoT back then bite and spikes would synergize with eachother. As in you could do a certain amount of damage if you spammed bite or spikes on a marine but if you're good enough to use both of them together effectively your damage will go up. They'd synergize even further if the spike DoT 'detonation' from bite was implemented. Think about how high the potential skill ceiling could be made.
3. Not as important, but damage over time and support effects would create a nice unique theme for the lerk, making it feel like more than just a flying skulk with a gimped LMG.
Well, that ^anecdote is useless as evidence Steve, but I do agree that OP doesn't seem to have any idea how to play Lerk. His complete lack of the Lerk's role and strengths is one clue, but an even bigger one is how hard he tries to convince us he's a good player.
Good players don't need to go on about how often they practice or how much skill they have; they know they still have shortcomings and have other arguments to back up their logic than "I'm good". People who stomp newbs and get big heads are the ones who go around telling everyone how pro they are.
<!--quoteo(post=2021653:date=Nov 12 2012, 10:17 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Nov 12 2012, 10:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021653"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Indeed, wasn't trying to use it as 'evidence' of anything short of the OP's inability to play the class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It really doesn't even accomplish that, though. No offense intended, but the fact that your friend can roll publings doesn't make the lerk balanced, any more than its ability to kill rats makes a baseball bat a viable weapon of war. I can go 15-1 with a switch-axe in pubs too; that just shows how absurd pubs are, not how viable the weapon or skilled the player is.
I personally main Lerk too, and I always ends up at the top of my team in score because I know how to use it to good measure.
The Lerk is a support combat unit, much like the Gorge but more offensive. You are also the bane of most Jetpackers. Not invincible, but in good hands you are a huge treat in any attacks you and your critter friends can do.
Your bite should never be used up front. Always attack from behind. You are weak and cost 30 res, don't give anyone any reason to hit you easily. The bite itself is quite weak though, so when you know they have A2 or better, don't bother biting unless it's from behind.
The spikes are useful for 2 things: Push back marines, and 'parasite' them. Getting kills with spikes is either because of luck or complete stupidity from the marine. They're also pretty useful when fighting Exo's without welders. Exo can't aim at long distances giving you the net advantage over them.
Spores is by far one of the best abilities in the game. It goes through armor, it block vision, it block paths, remove any marines from; Exos (Welders), Power nodes, extractors or any building being constructed. It also makes sentries aim like crap (untested, that's what Wikia says and it seems to be true) and is spammable like hell. As long as you zig-zag when sporing and don't leave any corner open, you'll be the bane of any marines trying to hold their position. You can also protect your Onos while he is fleeing, protect yourself and you might get some kills with it too.
You are not an assassin. You are not invincible. You are there to support any attacks your team does, and when you do, you become a huge threat and much more stronger than when you are alone. Winning isn't about KDR. You'll achieve much more by simply blocking a path for a minute than killing 2-3 fleeing marines.
As long as you keep flying like a drunk you'll be fine, though sometimes people get a lucky shot.
It has it's flaws though, like the dependency on Adrenaline once you get Spore/Umbra (Reducing your speed with isnt always a good thing, but being able to constantly spore a room for a long time makes up for it.) and I feel that the model should be a little bit shorter.
I personally uses Regeneration, even though it makes you weaker, because you will always hit and run, and the +25 armor from carapace is pretty meh in my eyes. Sometimes I get carapace, mostly when Exo's are on the field and I know I'll have to spore their welders. You could get anything and make good use of it though, so do whatever you want.
I would buff the lerk on these things though: -Decrease Hitbox -Increase Spikes damage -Decrease Shotgun damage (Biggest problem.) -Increase Bite damage (Either increase raw damage or make it do max damage on any cone.) -Increase Carapace boost (Or boost natural armor to 75)
Not everything at the same time, but I would touch these areas.
<!--quoteo(post=2021566:date=Nov 13 2012, 03:56 AM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 13 2012, 03:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know. How could I not know (and love) this after devoting 100% of my play time to the lerk ever since buying the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you should play marine and actually discover how annoying spores actually are. If a marine decides to retreat through a linear drop of spores he wont make it out alive and it's capacity to ignore armour 3 makes it incredibly powerful late game tool. Any marine hugging the wall easily becomes easy pickings for a skulk. NS2 is about team play, why is it when ever a player can't solo an entire team of marines as a certain evolution they think it's UP. It's the same with the Fade, except you actually can usually kill up to 3 marines with tier 3 armour as a Fade.
Umbra can allow an Onos to stay at a power nodule in the enemy base for twice as long. Do you know how affective that is to end game balance?
Do you know how annoying it is as a marine commander to deal with lerks shooting power nodes from across a room where otherwise a skulk can be picked off like a fly on the wall by a rifle weilding marine in under a second?
There's nothing wrong with Lerk, especially when you consider its passive mobility, increased damage, increased armour and ability to deal ranged damage.
If you don't play against lerks or as other evolutions you lose the bigger picture of what a lerk is truely capable of; as either a harassment class or support role. I recommend you don't play lerk in order to get a better idea of how to play lerk.
P.S. if you're having trouble with jet packers have you noticed that you can glide without spamming space bar? 2 mashes of the space bar and even without celerity the lerk can pretty much do 90 degree turns at what feels like 40MPH.
When I said I viewed the lerk as an assassin I didn't really mean that the lerk should be 'invincible' and go toe to toe with single marines like a fade.
My main goal is to make the lerk an original life form that feels like more than just a flying skulk with a gimped LMG. Increasing direct damage from spikes and bite and making the hitbox smaller would do exactly the opposite. It would be like you're spending 30 pres on wings and spike shooters instead of actually evolving into a different lifeform. As a side note those changes would also make the lerk damned overpowered as well Shahnaz.
The DoT damage could be more for dissuading marines than actually killing them. Perhaps the spike DoT damage wouldn't do all that much alone but does great damage with the 'detonate' effect from bite. This way the marines can choose to either risk getting bitten after getting spiked a few times by engaging the lerk up close or they can choose to back off and get health from an armory.
Is everyone so against an original feel for the lerk? Why are you all so stuck on ranged spores and simply adding more spike/bite up front damage?
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
edited November 2012
i think spores could be widened a bit, even if they do less damage and have a wider area - for the blinding factor alone woudl be good.
edit.
also in ns1 you could umbra yourself reasonable effectively, and this made it fairly viable to take on level 3 wep/armor marines - even if it was just for 1 or two bites you wouldn't die instantly, and it allowed you to do your harassment over and over. 'take on' is probably the wrong wording, but more like stand up to.
it totally get what the OP is saying, the lerk is a harrassment class, but you have limited value in the later stages of the game.
i'd like to think that level 1 marines and lerk are equal, then level 2 marines and lerk with spores are equal, level 3 marines and lerk with umbra/spores are equal. (one on one i mean)
I think Lerk is borderline OP at the moment, and probably has the most well thought out scaling of any unit currently.
Coupled with its highly evasive play style, its bite is formidable, and doesn't match up to the skulk's because it shouldn't. The strength of spikes against level 0 and 1 armor marines is positively devastating on the other hand. This ability is how you prevent shotgunners from pushing and taking the entire map in the early game. Mid game when higher level armor goes up? No problem, spores doesn't care about armor. A level 3 armor marine dies to spores just as quickly as a level 0. Although I would like to see umbra earlier in the game, since it gives the Lerk a much more defined support role, it really is incredibly powerful, and would probably be too powerful for earlier stages in the game.
As for the OPs complaints: 1. Simply flying over and gassing marines won't kill them lol. You could stand directly in a dropped spore patch, and be unlikely to die before it expired. The primary role of spores is to blind an area for skulk and fade attacks. Let me just hug this wall while a group of skulks rapes me up against it. 2. Complaining about armor upgrades from the perspective of the only life form which can entirely ignore armor. I don't buy it. 3. Do Jetpacks counter lerks? Sure, they can be very good for hunting and bringing them down. Do Lerks counter jetpacks? Oh hell yes. 4. You have two options. Keep umbra duration as it is now, or have the energy consumption doubled or even tripled. You can't increase the effective HP of units in a wide AOE by like 30%+ and still be 100% combat effective. You can still be highly combat effective while also being effective with Umbra, it just takes some sacrifices, as you would expect.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think Lerk is borderline OP at the moment, and probably has the most well thought out scaling of any unit currently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much this, actually. I play Lerk and Gorge almost exclusively as Aliens, and I've found the Lerk to be highly effective at doing what I want it to do. Primarily, this is to distract and piss off the Marines. If you aren't flying into a base on the heels of an Onos and popping an umbra down while drunkenly slurring around a room you just aren't doing it right or are doing it in the middle of a base that still has a turret farm.
I could be very wrong about this, but it seems like if you spray Spores from higher in the air the AoE increases as it falls. At least that's what it looks like. I know that Spores seem less effective the lower I drop them, but there are a lot of variables so it's hard to distinguish in the heat of things.
The fact that Spores goes straight to HP <b>and</b> Umbra cuts bullet damage in half? Compared to a Fade that has Blink and...well Blink. There are other factors for this, as always, but Lerk is an all-around good unit that doesn't particularly excel at anything but can do a fair bit of everything. It's pretty much the ultimate hit-and-run life form.
As to their speed, it's amazing. If you glide downwards at an angle you speed up, you angle upwards you slow down, you can glide to be perfectly silent while moving faster than a skulk.
Why people hate some of the best units you can buy in Natural Selection is a mystery to me...
Lerk pre-spores is crappy, yes. But it begs the question of why exactly you went Lerk before spores. There's no reason to. This carries over onto all the alien units for that matter. Wait until you have the upgrade before wasting res on an ineffective unit.
Play a bit as a Marine to fully understand how screwed you are when a Lerk shows up in a large room with your group of three Marines. <i>Especially</i> if the Lerk has silence. Silent but deadly takes on a whole new meaning...
I would also like to add that Lerk probably has the most widely applicable array of potential upgrades in the game. This lifeform can <b>actually benefit from regen</b>, and it is actually viable to go celerity <b>or </b>adrenaline. Not only that (as I suppose some other lifeforms can choose between celerity or adrenaline at times), but which upgrades you take can actually drastically change your play-style. If I go early Lerk, I will always take celerity first as spores typically aren't available, and the choices for supportable targets is usually slim to none. A little later, however, and if there is a fade out, it becomes almost mandatory to have adrenaline in order to keep up the spores while firing a few spikes off from safety, while a fade or the like distracts the marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2021730:date=Nov 13 2012, 12:51 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 13 2012, 12:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pretty much this, actually. I play Lerk and Gorge almost exclusively as Aliens, and I've found the Lerk to be highly effective at doing what I want it to do. Primarily, this is to distract and piss off the Marines. If you aren't flying into a base on the heels of an Onos and popping an umbra down while drunkenly slurring around a room you just aren't doing it right or are doing it in the middle of a base that still has a turret farm.
I could be very wrong about this, but it seems like if you spray Spores from higher in the air the AoE increases as it falls. At least that's what it looks like. I know that Spores seem less effective the lower I drop them, but there are a lot of variables so it's hard to distinguish in the heat of things.
The fact that Spores goes straight to HP <b>and</b> Umbra cuts bullet damage in half? Compared to a Fade that has Blink and...well Blink. There are other factors for this, as always, but Lerk is an all-around good unit that doesn't particularly excel at anything but can do a fair bit of everything. It's pretty much the ultimate hit-and-run life form.
As to their speed, it's amazing. If you glide downwards at an angle you speed up, you angle upwards you slow down, you can glide to be perfectly silent while moving faster than a skulk.
Why people hate some of the best units you can buy in Natural Selection is a mystery to me...
Lerk pre-spores is crappy, yes. But it begs the question of why exactly you went Lerk before spores. There's no reason to. This carries over onto all the alien units for that matter. Wait until you have the upgrade before wasting res on an ineffective unit.
Play a bit as a Marine to fully understand how screwed you are when a Lerk shows up in a large room with your group of three Marines. <i>Especially</i> if the Lerk has silence. Silent but deadly takes on a whole new meaning...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No lifeform should be useless before getting some upgrade, it goes against UWE's design philosophy. Any option should be just as viable as another. Newer lifeforms should also actually feel like newer life forms. One of my biggest gripes with the lerk is that once you spend that 30 pres it feels like you bought a couple of spike launchers and some wings as a skulk, rather than turning into a completely new lifeform with a new playstyle. The DoT theme would definitely be viable and unique.
<!--quoteo(post=2021744:date=Nov 13 2012, 08:12 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Nov 13 2012, 08:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of my biggest gripes with the lerk is that once you spend that 30 pres it feels like you bought a couple of spike launchers and some wings as a skulk, rather than turning into a completely new lifeform with a new playstyle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am mediocre as a Skulk and a Fade, and awful as an Onos, <i>but Lerk</i> is the alien specie that I can play efficiently and with great success. And there are so many things sloppy with how you play Lerk that I don't quite know where to begin.
1.) Spikes are bad. Only at two different scenarios should you be using spikes, which is a.) Between bites when you approach, and b.) When you are forced to remain at a distance, e.g., when aliens siege or defend a tech point. There's also a third, c.) When you want to destroy buildings, which you also do at a very long distance, most commonly after you've clawed your way to the corner of a ceiling with a quick escape route.
2.) Spores are bad. Only at one point should you be using spores, and that is when there is more than 3 marines in any given location, and you do not want them to approach / enter the next room. Stalling them. Making them retreat. It's a wall to them, and a way to make sure they do not follow you. You also use it when you want to make sure they do not follow your fellow Onos companions.
3.) Umbra. You only use umbra before you fly in with the Onos, and before you fly out. That's a total of 12 seconds, and you should not remain inside a room under siege for more than 8-10 seconds anyway. In fact, I'm kind of amazed that you would even attempt to remain in there for more than 6. Use Umbra on the Onos once, fly in with the Onos, bite a couple of marines once or twice, use umbra on the Onos again, then use spores on your way out.
As for 2 and 3, you might want to zig-zag whenever you use spores. Zig-zagging is how you're supposed to fly to outmaneuver marines accuracy anyway.
The main thing that you should be focusing on is biting. And when you bite, you only bite once. Don't attempt to dance with the marine. Bite once, and get out. Once you're out, wait and listen to what they do next. If they run after you, use spores and retreat. If they run away, catch them before they hump the armory.
That's how you play Lerk. You play the chicken game. You lure them in, and make them chicken out. Rinse and repeat.
Comments
"Anything a lerk can do, a marine with jetpack and flamethrower + pistol can do 10 times better, with more protection."
That is just laughable and completely unfounded... Sure Lerks are not entirely fine, but they are far from underpowered... Now if this was about the Fade, then yes it does need a serious look at... And the issue might not even lie with the Lerk as you think it does, it is more an issue with other things like nanoshield and perhaps armory armor repairing...
I am actually a fan of the projectile spores, but that ship has sailed I think...
Spores are fine the way they are but spikes are extremely lackluster and bite is just like the skulk bite (which UWE wanted to avoid).
The reason spikes are usually not worth using in their current iteration is because you need to be either sitting still or EXTREMELY good to actually do good damage with them. LMG dps is just so high that sitting still isn't an option at all. You die before you can react. 30 res for a flying marine that doesn't do any damage really isn't worth it pre-spores.
What needs to be done might you ask? Spikes need to be more hit-and-run like the rest of the alien arsenal. Lower the rate of fire on spikes and make them apply a stacking DoT. Then lower the initial damage from bite and make bite apply the old DoT effect. This would add a whole dimension of playability to the lerk pre-spores. Do you apply the bite first then get a few spikes as you're flying away or spike first and then bite? And then once you get spores it will become a real master's challenge to efficiently combine all your DoT effects. Newer players will still be moderately effective but the true skill ceiling will go through the roof.
I've also had the idea to make the bite 'detonate' the stacks of spike poison, doing all the DoT damage from the spikes basically instantly. Another dimension would be added to spike/bite synergy.
And all of those things to think about while using only spikes and bite? I think we'd see a lot more pre-spore lerks.
Yeah OK, I concede that I got ahead of myself in my lack of patience at this time of morning. I've played lerk like I said a lot and realize that not ANYTHING a Lerk can do a marine can do better. I really wanted to say that a marine of that configuration "eats in" on the lerk's niche in some aspects while being tougher and FAR more potent. Like I said, really late here, sleep time for me.
Spores are fine the way they are but spikes are extremely lackluster and bite is just like the skulk bite (which UWE wanted to avoid).
The reason spikes are usually not worth using in their current iteration is because you need to be either sitting still or EXTREMELY good to actually do good damage with them. LMG dps is just so high that sitting still isn't an option at all. You die before you can react. 30 res for a flying marine that doesn't do any damage really isn't worth it pre-spores.
What needs to be done might you ask? Spikes need to be more hit-and-run like the rest of the alien arsenal. Lower the rate of fire on spikes and make them apply a stacking DoT. Then lower the initial damage from bite and make bite apply the old DoT effect. This would add a whole dimension of playability to the lerk pre-spores. Do you apply the bite first then get a few spikes as you're flying away or spike first and then bite? And then once you get spores it will become a real master's challenge to efficiently combine all your DoT effects. Newer players will still be moderately effective but the true skill ceiling will go through the roof.
I've also had the idea to make the bite 'detonate' the stacks of spike poison, doing all the DoT damage from the spikes basically instantly. Another dimension would be added to spike/bite synergy.
And all of those things to think about while using only spikes and bite? I think we'd see a lot more pre-spore lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
spikes has its own use. you can always snipe down power nodes or RTs or even marines from ceiling to the floor. e.g. the right hive on docking, forgot its name. shooting power nodes from there is really pain in the ass.
Yes you can if you want to sit there for 5 minutes holding the button down. The damage the spike does is a joke and late game is completely pointless against Marines.
In all my time playing that has never actually been effective, only annoying to the enemy team. And once they get an idea of what you're doing the jig is up and if you keep trying you'll get shot down. Basically your time is better spent doing other tasks, such as supporting.
Lerks really aren't meant to destroy structures anyways, I see them being a type of assassin/support class. Umbra being the main obvious support ability but spores can support as well. My spike/bite synergy idea would make the lerk the assassin as well.
This suggestion is so fantastic I actually welled up in tears.
Okay, maybe not, but really. It was good.
Make the attacks synergistic and the class gains depth that will be fun no matter what the score board says. I have been feeling the spikes need poison on top of their current base damage, a DoT that synergizes with bite would actually be fantastic as it requires skill. Definitely worth seriously thinking about.
Besides, I thought the tooltip on the loading screen said Lerk bite has a poison component? But I've never seen it actually hurt a marine beyond the initial hit so I guess it's broken.
Spores are indeed fine, its pre-spores that lerks need help. Read my idea
Leave the heavy rt killing work to skulks. The point of lerking is harassing, flanking, and map coverage - e.g. force marines to leave positions and come defend an rt. You don't need to kill buildings in a timely fashion, you only need to present a reasonable threat.
Okay, maybe not, but really. It was good.
Make the attacks synergistic and the class gains depth that will be fun no matter what the score board says. I have been feeling the spikes need poison on top of their current base damage, a DoT that synergizes with bite would actually be fantastic as it requires skill. Definitely worth seriously thinking about.
Besides, I thought the tooltip on the loading screen said Lerk bite has a poison component? But I've never seen it actually hurt a marine beyond the initial hit so I guess it's broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bite used to have a DoT but UWE had to make a band-aid fix to the lerk and made it do weaker skulk bites again.
I just want the lerk to be fun and original to play, and feel my change would make it so. Thanks for your support
I said I'm a fan of the projectile spore, not that is should go in. I dunno, the lerk is a glass machingun. Those crop duster moves are dangerous for newbies, but the projectiles are Lerk roosting material of which I'm not a fan. Let's just say, I enjoy the crop dusting, but I would be open for a test with projectile spores to see what it does to the Lerk play style and effectiveness for NS2 gameplay :P
Unless you're expecting to significantly buff spike damage with this DoT, which would be just as dumb and broken as buffing spike damage like it is now.
I'm not telling you these k/d ratios to say we're gods of gaming... I'm telling you so you can see that a lerk is an effective class, it can kill marines, and it fits its role in NS2. Obviously, the above referenced player is an outlier, but reading through your posts makes it sound like a lerk is nothing but a waste of resources. That couldn't be further from the truth. The only possible explanation for your opinion is that you are not playing the class correctly and that you do not learn from your mistakes nor adapt your playstyle after consistently encountering failure.
This thread is a near perfect example of why balance discussions on forms <i>need</i> to be taken very lightly.
Agree. Would be nice if the spread increased alot more with range so you have medium ranged spikes. Sniper roostlerking is pretty skilless and way too effective the way it is now.
*edit*
not a fan of dot spikes for the same reason i'm not a fan of dot bilebomb. Damage should be upfront and fair with burst damage potential - you shouldn't be able to quickly spike marines and keep doing lots of stable damage while never really exposing yourself. Projectile gas lerk worked however because marines had the option to move out of it.
Unless you're expecting to significantly buff spike damage with this DoT, which would be just as dumb and broken as buffing spike damage like it is now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong, theres a few big differences you're ignoring.
1. The lerk wouldn't have to stay in marine vision for as long to actually do damage with spikes. As it is now you have to hover around vulnerably in order to do any spike damage. Think about maybe popping around a corner, spiking a marine then popping back.
2. If bite got it's DoT back then bite and spikes would synergize with eachother. As in you could do a certain amount of damage if you spammed bite or spikes on a marine but if you're good enough to use both of them together effectively your damage will go up. They'd synergize even further if the spike DoT 'detonation' from bite was implemented. Think about how high the potential skill ceiling could be made.
3. Not as important, but damage over time and support effects would create a nice unique theme for the lerk, making it feel like more than just a flying skulk with a gimped LMG.
Good players don't need to go on about how often they practice or how much skill they have; they know they still have shortcomings and have other arguments to back up their logic than "I'm good". People who stomp newbs and get big heads are the ones who go around telling everyone how pro they are.
Indeed, wasn't trying to use it as 'evidence' of anything short of the OP's inability to play the class.
It really doesn't even accomplish that, though. No offense intended, but the fact that your friend can roll publings doesn't make the lerk balanced, any more than its ability to kill rats makes a baseball bat a viable weapon of war. I can go 15-1 with a switch-axe in pubs too; that just shows how absurd pubs are, not how viable the weapon or skilled the player is.
The Lerk is a support combat unit, much like the Gorge but more offensive. You are also the bane of most Jetpackers. Not invincible, but in good hands you are a huge treat in any attacks you and your critter friends can do.
Your bite should never be used up front. Always attack from behind. You are weak and cost 30 res, don't give anyone any reason to hit you easily. The bite itself is quite weak though, so when you know they have A2 or better, don't bother biting unless it's from behind.
The spikes are useful for 2 things: Push back marines, and 'parasite' them. Getting kills with spikes is either because of luck or complete stupidity from the marine. They're also pretty useful when fighting Exo's without welders. Exo can't aim at long distances giving you the net advantage over them.
Spores is by far one of the best abilities in the game. It goes through armor, it block vision, it block paths, remove any marines from; Exos (Welders), Power nodes, extractors or any building being constructed. It also makes sentries aim like crap (untested, that's what Wikia says and it seems to be true) and is spammable like hell. As long as you zig-zag when sporing and don't leave any corner open, you'll be the bane of any marines trying to hold their position. You can also protect your Onos while he is fleeing, protect yourself and you might get some kills with it too.
You are not an assassin. You are not invincible. You are there to support any attacks your team does, and when you do, you become a huge threat and much more stronger than when you are alone. Winning isn't about KDR. You'll achieve much more by simply blocking a path for a minute than killing 2-3 fleeing marines.
As long as you keep flying like a drunk you'll be fine, though sometimes people get a lucky shot.
It has it's flaws though, like the dependency on Adrenaline once you get Spore/Umbra (Reducing your speed with isnt always a good thing, but being able to constantly spore a room for a long time makes up for it.) and I feel that the model should be a little bit shorter.
I personally uses Regeneration, even though it makes you weaker, because you will always hit and run, and the +25 armor from carapace is pretty meh in my eyes. Sometimes I get carapace, mostly when Exo's are on the field and I know I'll have to spore their welders. You could get anything and make good use of it though, so do whatever you want.
I would buff the lerk on these things though:
-Decrease Hitbox
-Increase Spikes damage
-Decrease Shotgun damage (Biggest problem.)
-Increase Bite damage (Either increase raw damage or make it do max damage on any cone.)
-Increase Carapace boost (Or boost natural armor to 75)
Not everything at the same time, but I would touch these areas.
Just my 2 cent
-Shah
Maybe you should play marine and actually discover how annoying spores actually are. If a marine decides to retreat through a linear drop of spores he wont make it out alive and it's capacity to ignore armour 3 makes it incredibly powerful late game tool. Any marine hugging the wall easily becomes easy pickings for a skulk. NS2 is about team play, why is it when ever a player can't solo an entire team of marines as a certain evolution they think it's UP. It's the same with the Fade, except you actually can usually kill up to 3 marines with tier 3 armour as a Fade.
Umbra can allow an Onos to stay at a power nodule in the enemy base for twice as long. Do you know how affective that is to end game balance?
Do you know how annoying it is as a marine commander to deal with lerks shooting power nodes from across a room where otherwise a skulk can be picked off like a fly on the wall by a rifle weilding marine in under a second?
There's nothing wrong with Lerk, especially when you consider its passive mobility, increased damage, increased armour and ability to deal ranged damage.
If you don't play against lerks or as other evolutions you lose the bigger picture of what a lerk is truely capable of; as either a harassment class or support role. I recommend you don't play lerk in order to get a better idea of how to play lerk.
P.S. if you're having trouble with jet packers have you noticed that you can glide without spamming space bar? 2 mashes of the space bar and even without celerity the lerk can pretty much do 90 degree turns at what feels like 40MPH.
My main goal is to make the lerk an original life form that feels like more than just a flying skulk with a gimped LMG. Increasing direct damage from spikes and bite and making the hitbox smaller would do exactly the opposite. It would be like you're spending 30 pres on wings and spike shooters instead of actually evolving into a different lifeform. As a side note those changes would also make the lerk damned overpowered as well Shahnaz.
The DoT damage could be more for dissuading marines than actually killing them. Perhaps the spike DoT damage wouldn't do all that much alone but does great damage with the 'detonate' effect from bite. This way the marines can choose to either risk getting bitten after getting spiked a few times by engaging the lerk up close or they can choose to back off and get health from an armory.
Is everyone so against an original feel for the lerk? Why are you all so stuck on ranged spores and simply adding more spike/bite up front damage?
edit.
also in ns1 you could umbra yourself reasonable effectively, and this made it fairly viable to take on level 3 wep/armor marines - even if it was just for 1 or two bites you wouldn't die instantly, and it allowed you to do your harassment over and over. 'take on' is probably the wrong wording, but more like stand up to.
it totally get what the OP is saying, the lerk is a harrassment class, but you have limited value in the later stages of the game.
i'd like to think that level 1 marines and lerk are equal, then level 2 marines and lerk with spores are equal, level 3 marines and lerk with umbra/spores are equal. (one on one i mean)
Coupled with its highly evasive play style, its bite is formidable, and doesn't match up to the skulk's because it shouldn't. The strength of spikes against level 0 and 1 armor marines is positively devastating on the other hand. This ability is how you prevent shotgunners from pushing and taking the entire map in the early game. Mid game when higher level armor goes up? No problem, spores doesn't care about armor. A level 3 armor marine dies to spores just as quickly as a level 0. Although I would like to see umbra earlier in the game, since it gives the Lerk a much more defined support role, it really is incredibly powerful, and would probably be too powerful for earlier stages in the game.
As for the OPs complaints:
1. Simply flying over and gassing marines won't kill them lol. You could stand directly in a dropped spore patch, and be unlikely to die before it expired. The primary role of spores is to blind an area for skulk and fade attacks. Let me just hug this wall while a group of skulks rapes me up against it.
2. Complaining about armor upgrades from the perspective of the only life form which can entirely ignore armor. I don't buy it.
3. Do Jetpacks counter lerks? Sure, they can be very good for hunting and bringing them down. Do Lerks counter jetpacks? Oh hell yes.
4. You have two options. Keep umbra duration as it is now, or have the energy consumption doubled or even tripled. You can't increase the effective HP of units in a wide AOE by like 30%+ and still be 100% combat effective. You can still be highly combat effective while also being effective with Umbra, it just takes some sacrifices, as you would expect.
Pretty much this, actually. I play Lerk and Gorge almost exclusively as Aliens, and I've found the Lerk to be highly effective at doing what I want it to do. Primarily, this is to distract and piss off the Marines. If you aren't flying into a base on the heels of an Onos and popping an umbra down while drunkenly slurring around a room you just aren't doing it right or are doing it in the middle of a base that still has a turret farm.
I could be very wrong about this, but it seems like if you spray Spores from higher in the air the AoE increases as it falls. At least that's what it looks like. I know that Spores seem less effective the lower I drop them, but there are a lot of variables so it's hard to distinguish in the heat of things.
The fact that Spores goes straight to HP <b>and</b> Umbra cuts bullet damage in half? Compared to a Fade that has Blink and...well Blink. There are other factors for this, as always, but Lerk is an all-around good unit that doesn't particularly excel at anything but can do a fair bit of everything. It's pretty much the ultimate hit-and-run life form.
As to their speed, it's amazing. If you glide downwards at an angle you speed up, you angle upwards you slow down, you can glide to be perfectly silent while moving faster than a skulk.
Why people hate some of the best units you can buy in Natural Selection is a mystery to me...
Lerk pre-spores is crappy, yes. But it begs the question of why exactly you went Lerk before spores. There's no reason to. This carries over onto all the alien units for that matter. Wait until you have the upgrade before wasting res on an ineffective unit.
Play a bit as a Marine to fully understand how screwed you are when a Lerk shows up in a large room with your group of three Marines. <i>Especially</i> if the Lerk has silence. Silent but deadly takes on a whole new meaning...
Lerk for best lifeform 2k12?
I could be very wrong about this, but it seems like if you spray Spores from higher in the air the AoE increases as it falls. At least that's what it looks like. I know that Spores seem less effective the lower I drop them, but there are a lot of variables so it's hard to distinguish in the heat of things.
The fact that Spores goes straight to HP <b>and</b> Umbra cuts bullet damage in half? Compared to a Fade that has Blink and...well Blink. There are other factors for this, as always, but Lerk is an all-around good unit that doesn't particularly excel at anything but can do a fair bit of everything. It's pretty much the ultimate hit-and-run life form.
As to their speed, it's amazing. If you glide downwards at an angle you speed up, you angle upwards you slow down, you can glide to be perfectly silent while moving faster than a skulk.
Why people hate some of the best units you can buy in Natural Selection is a mystery to me...
Lerk pre-spores is crappy, yes. But it begs the question of why exactly you went Lerk before spores. There's no reason to. This carries over onto all the alien units for that matter. Wait until you have the upgrade before wasting res on an ineffective unit.
Play a bit as a Marine to fully understand how screwed you are when a Lerk shows up in a large room with your group of three Marines. <i>Especially</i> if the Lerk has silence. Silent but deadly takes on a whole new meaning...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No lifeform should be useless before getting some upgrade, it goes against UWE's design philosophy. Any option should be just as viable as another. Newer lifeforms should also actually feel like newer life forms. One of my biggest gripes with the lerk is that once you spend that 30 pres it feels like you bought a couple of spike launchers and some wings as a skulk, rather than turning into a completely new lifeform with a new playstyle. The DoT theme would definitely be viable and unique.
<img src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_cn4QlnoFZWE/TNL87JKuxJI/AAAAAAAAAPo/zfPbv1Ztww4/s1600/jackie.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
1.) Spikes are bad. Only at two different scenarios should you be using spikes, which is a.) Between bites when you approach, and b.) When you are forced to remain at a distance, e.g., when aliens siege or defend a tech point. There's also a third, c.) When you want to destroy buildings, which you also do at a very long distance, most commonly after you've clawed your way to the corner of a ceiling with a quick escape route.
2.) Spores are bad. Only at one point should you be using spores, and that is when there is more than 3 marines in any given location, and you do not want them to approach / enter the next room. Stalling them. Making them retreat. It's a wall to them, and a way to make sure they do not follow you. You also use it when you want to make sure they do not follow your fellow Onos companions.
3.) Umbra. You only use umbra before you fly in with the Onos, and before you fly out. That's a total of 12 seconds, and you should not remain inside a room under siege for more than 8-10 seconds anyway. In fact, I'm kind of amazed that you would even attempt to remain in there for more than 6. Use Umbra on the Onos once, fly in with the Onos, bite a couple of marines once or twice, use umbra on the Onos again, then use spores on your way out.
As for 2 and 3, you might want to zig-zag whenever you use spores. Zig-zagging is how you're supposed to fly to outmaneuver marines accuracy anyway.
The main thing that you should be focusing on is biting. And when you bite, you only bite once. Don't attempt to dance with the marine. Bite once, and get out. Once you're out, wait and listen to what they do next. If they run after you, use spores and retreat. If they run away, catch them before they hump the armory.
That's how you play Lerk. You play the chicken game. You lure them in, and make them chicken out. Rinse and repeat.