The less you rely on the map the faster you'll actually learn your way around by sight. You should be able to picture walking through the map in your head and remember what each of the rooms look like. You'll never develop that sense if you're always just navigating your 2D arrow across the screen instead. Back in NS 1.0 there were no maps and it wasn't even that big a deal, people just knew their way around.
<!--quoteo(post=2021219:date=Nov 12 2012, 02:21 PM:name=KwisatzHaderach)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KwisatzHaderach @ Nov 12 2012, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know right? Because Dune II and Warcraft II didn't have a map either. Ppl were really tough back in the olden days!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Walk without rhythm and you won't attract the worms.
Muad'dib never needed a compass.
But actually... doom had a map :-P . I even used it sometimes, but not very often lol. I can't remember if Quake did. If it did, I didn't use it hardly ever.
And also, Dune II totally had a map. I remember the repeated clicking on it sending tanks in one by one because you couldn't select multile units. The ole'times indeed.
Yeah, quake II had extremely distinctive brown textures all over :-) .
Dude, trust me, as you play you'll learn the maps. Compasses, theodolytes, light sticks, weather balloons, etc. won't help any more than sheer playing the map over and over to memorize where everything is, and how it's connected.
It's always unpleasant to fire up a new game and to feel lost and owned because you don't have the map knowledge that experienced players do, but as you play more and more that feeling will disappear.
P.S. I still maintain that nineshaft's overlay map is uber-horrible :-P .
So you think the current inconsistent and partially incorrect maps are fine, simply because you don't use them? You don't need the map, but why does that justify the state the maps are in? Some people do need the maps and as was previously stated by KwisatzHaderach, not everyone plays every map a whole lot or even the game a whole lot. I don't think I've played on refinery nearly as often as summit or veil, so I need the map. Does that make me bad at the game, less of a grizzled war veteran than you, simply because I don't know refinery as well as summit? And I really don't feel like hopping in explore mode, run around the map like a bloody maniac, thinking this will actually help me memorize everything. It won't. I'll be bored and wonder why I am wasting my time instead of playing the game.
Yes, knowing where to go without needing the map is great. But I have the map open all the time to see things going on and determine where I am needed. Not rarely does it happen that I spot some enemy movement on the map nearby my location and decide to change my course to engage. In that case I make the decision which route to take on the fly, but when it is a route I don't use that often, chances are the map will delude me and tell me there is a door where there is in fact a wall. It's frustrating and there's no reason not to improve it. I see only positive impact from improved maps and can't imagine it being such a huge effort to do either. "Play more and learn the maps" justifies leaving them at what they are? I get the feeling you think a polished game with consistent maps is a bad thing.
<!--quoteo(post=2021701:date=Nov 13 2012, 01:06 AM:name=sheena_yanai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sheena_yanai @ Nov 13 2012, 01:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021701"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i honestly cant see where the problem is , marines basically already have a compass in game, and aliens on their map aswell
you look up on the minimap - north
you look down on the minimap - south
you look left on the minimap - west
you look right on the minimap - east
but in the end it does not matter at all, because nobody would navigate indoors using a compass<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with you on marine side. It's very easy to get disoriented when you don't know the maps well as an alien in NS2 though. Not having a communicative hive sight is a big blow to my sense of direction at this point where I'm still learning maps.
<!--quoteo(post=2021701:date=Nov 13 2012, 06:06 AM:name=sheena_yanai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sheena_yanai @ Nov 13 2012, 06:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021701"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i honestly cant see where the problem is , marines basically already have a compass in game, and aliens on their map aswell
you look up on the minimap - north
you look down on the minimap - south
you look left on the minimap - west
you look right on the minimap - east
but in the end it does not matter at all, because nobody would navigate indoors using a compass<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's why I said, marines don't need a compass. It's just, with all the turns and bends you can easily loose directions, I think it would be nice to always know which way I'm facing. And how do you know that nobody would use a compass indoors, when ppl come to these forums to write a thread asking for a compass to use indoors? I agree, it's not a pressing issue, just a nice to have... The maps are a more serious flaw atm.
<!--quoteo(post=2021277:date=Nov 12 2012, 11:01 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 12 2012, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Walk without rhythm and you won't attract the worms.
Muad'dib never needed a compass.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And see what it got him! The known universe was succumbed to the religious fanatism of his Fedaykin and the Golden Path. Trillions were slaughtered, while he was assassinated by his best friend, over and over again... ... And all because he didn't have a compass!!!
You have to realize that the maps are automatically generated. The trick is, these levels are very detailed and constantly evolving with each release too. Doing the overview maps by hand is tedious work, and UWE doesn't have an army of interns to delegate it too.
I think this thread would be much better pointing out specific problems in the maps (some tweaking can be done by hand) as opposed to whining about it. For example, separation between cavern and cave hiveroom in mineshaft could use a bit of work, there's a wall there that I try to go through every time.
Can't comment on the compass bit, other than other games I play with compass I end up ignoring the compass anyway. Couldn't hurt for it to be optional though, I suppose. Pressing "C" to see where you're pointed and find where you need to go effective enough for me.
I wrote a proposition for an alien compass around the time they patched it so that the game didn't insta crash every 5 minutes and I've played the game through plenty of my free time over the past few days so that map recognition isn't nearly as much of an issue. Nonetheless I still feel if it were at least an option it would improve navigational skills for whole teams of aliens generally, and improve the capacity for a commander to direct their team more effectively thus improving the experience overall.
A compass would:
-Allow you to direct teamates to the "NW corner" of a given room towards a target, or encourage your team to push "NE towards Topo" for example. -Make learning a map generally more intuitive particularly given how alien vision distorts things. While learning I found it frustrating at times just how much I would get turned the hell around, or wind up heading in the wrong direction if I didn't constantly have my map up.
That said, the transparent minimap mod was a godsend.
I find it amusing when people complain about this when they don't use the map.
I literally run more than half the time the map on. This enables me to spot marines in hidden places behind things, because the map hilights the enemy in the map even if he's partially visible.
I usually toggle the map on and off about once per second.
I also wish there was a small discrete compass on the HUD. It would be helpful as the maps are very large and knowing I need to go generally south to reach a destination would be helpful. I was surprised this was not included in the game.
Improving minimaps is a must. No amount of "once you learn the maps it's fine" nonsense justifies weak minimap tech.
That's like saying "Yeah I know you're used to driving a car to work, but it's out of gas now and once you get used to walking 40 miles each way to work it's fine." What?! No! Fix the simple problem.
Some dev or artist could spend literally <i>one hour of their time tracing borders </i>in places where the automatic minimap tech is failing and things would see a dramatic improvement (examples: Elevator Transfer makes it look like you could walk straight to Mezzanine towards Server Room hive. And on the map with Caverns, the entire north part of the minimap makes it look like the entire space is wide open which is just silly.)
Or you could have a PR guy spend 5 mins of his time making a Twitter request to fans and they'll trace new minimaps for you, just for a little credit in-game.
Either is preferable to the extremely inaccurate minimaps we have now, and the best solution of course would be to improve whatever automatic minimap-creation script exists so that it actually understands walls correctly.
Completely agree with you OP. Started a thread ages ago but no one particularly cared much. This has bothered me immensely; you learn maps by playing, not by being forced to memorize patters in the map structures because the game doesn't relay information reliably, efficiently, or intuitively. Marines movement is easier to grasp simply because you're slower and need a cautious, steady pace.
The aliens need something that makes movement more fluid. Perhaps a lot more "see-through" visual cues.
To all the people saying the minimaps are fine, seriously? The dev's have even said they arent happy with the minimaps - check the replies on steam workshop to the "detailed minimaps" mod.
The reason the minimaps are broken is that they are auto-generated, and the tool that generates them isnt perfect. Geeze, you're all so diehard you want to believe bugs are features? The minimaps are SUPPOSE to be accurate.
PS, i found the ns2_tram minimap to be particularly bad.
Also, aliens should have a HUD minimap like marines. Lore? Who cares, call it hivesight v3.
<!--quoteo(post=2020632:date=Nov 12 2012, 06:13 AM:name=Volcano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Volcano @ Nov 12 2012, 06:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->as you play more you'll learn the maps like the back of your hand and you'll barely need the map to know where you're going and only checking it to see wheres being hit<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is great, but doesn't make this issue mute.
I'm voting for adding this <a href="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=110216960" target="_blank">http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/file...s/?id=110216960</a> in vanilla NS2!
<!--quoteo(post=2020669:date=Nov 12 2012, 01:29 PM:name=snooops)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooops @ Nov 12 2012, 01:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020669"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i experienced a good map knowledge after commanding some games. you have such a good overview and map location names, that i just needed 1 or 2 games on a map to know it perfectly :) try it!
tipp: alien commander isnt hard as marine commander ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is true. I commanded Tram a few times and since then I dont have any troubles to navigate as an on-field-unit.
Instead of a compass, I would like to have a pocket watch. With a watch you could 1) see the time 2) make out the compass point by aligning the shadow of a tree with the hour hand of your watch.
Comments
Walk without rhythm and you won't attract the worms.
Muad'dib never needed a compass.
But actually... doom had a map :-P . I even used it sometimes, but not very often lol. I can't remember if Quake did. If it did, I didn't use it hardly ever.
And also, Dune II totally had a map. I remember the repeated clicking on it sending tanks in one by one because you couldn't select multile units. The ole'times indeed.
it also help that there are items on the map instead of a generic power node / resource node in every room
Dude, trust me, as you play you'll learn the maps. Compasses, theodolytes, light sticks, weather balloons, etc. won't help any more than sheer playing the map over and over to memorize where everything is, and how it's connected.
It's always unpleasant to fire up a new game and to feel lost and owned because you don't have the map knowledge that experienced players do, but as you play more and more that feeling will disappear.
P.S. I still maintain that nineshaft's overlay map is uber-horrible :-P .
I don't think I've played on refinery nearly as often as summit or veil, so I need the map. Does that make me bad at the game, less of a grizzled war veteran than you, simply because I don't know refinery as well as summit? And I really don't feel like hopping in explore mode, run around the map like a bloody maniac, thinking this will actually help me memorize everything. It won't. I'll be bored and wonder why I am wasting my time instead of playing the game.
Yes, knowing where to go without needing the map is great. But I have the map open all the time to see things going on and determine where I am needed. Not rarely does it happen that I spot some enemy movement on the map nearby my location and decide to change my course to engage. In that case I make the decision which route to take on the fly, but when it is a route I don't use that often, chances are the map will delude me and tell me there is a door where there is in fact a wall. It's frustrating and there's no reason not to improve it. I see only positive impact from improved maps and can't imagine it being such a huge effort to do either. "Play more and learn the maps" justifies leaving them at what they are? I get the feeling you think a polished game with consistent maps is a bad thing.
you look up on the minimap - north
you look down on the minimap - south
you look left on the minimap - west
you look right on the minimap - east
but in the end it does not matter at all, because nobody would navigate indoors using a compass
you look up on the minimap - north
you look down on the minimap - south
you look left on the minimap - west
you look right on the minimap - east
but in the end it does not matter at all, because nobody would navigate indoors using a compass<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you on marine side. It's very easy to get disoriented when you don't know the maps well as an alien in NS2 though. Not having a communicative hive sight is a big blow to my sense of direction at this point where I'm still learning maps.
you look up on the minimap - north
you look down on the minimap - south
you look left on the minimap - west
you look right on the minimap - east
but in the end it does not matter at all, because nobody would navigate indoors using a compass<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's why I said, marines don't need a compass.
It's just, with all the turns and bends you can easily loose directions, I think it would be nice to always know which way I'm facing. And how do you know that nobody would use a compass indoors, when ppl come to these forums to write a thread asking for a compass to use indoors? I agree, it's not a pressing issue, just a nice to have...
The maps are a more serious flaw atm.
<!--quoteo(post=2021277:date=Nov 12 2012, 11:01 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 12 2012, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Walk without rhythm and you won't attract the worms.
Muad'dib never needed a compass.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And see what it got him!
The known universe was succumbed to the religious fanatism of his Fedaykin and the Golden Path. Trillions were slaughtered, while he was assassinated by his best friend, over and over again...
... And all because he didn't have a compass!!!
I think this thread would be much better pointing out specific problems in the maps (some tweaking can be done by hand) as opposed to whining about it. For example, separation between cavern and cave hiveroom in mineshaft could use a bit of work, there's a wall there that I try to go through every time.
Can't comment on the compass bit, other than other games I play with compass I end up ignoring the compass anyway. Couldn't hurt for it to be optional though, I suppose. Pressing "C" to see where you're pointed and find where you need to go effective enough for me.
The maps may need to be updated but I do not understand your complaints about the level design.
A compass would:
-Allow you to direct teamates to the "NW corner" of a given room towards a target, or encourage your team to push "NE towards Topo" for example.
-Make learning a map generally more intuitive particularly given how alien vision distorts things. While learning I found it frustrating at times just how much I would get turned the hell around, or wind up heading in the wrong direction if I didn't constantly have my map up.
That said, the transparent minimap mod was a godsend.
I literally run more than half the time the map on. This enables me to spot marines in hidden places behind things, because the map hilights the enemy in the map even if he's partially visible.
I usually toggle the map on and off about once per second.
- Garo
That's like saying "Yeah I know you're used to driving a car to work, but it's out of gas now and once you get used to walking 40 miles each way to work it's fine." What?! No! Fix the simple problem.
Some dev or artist could spend literally <i>one hour of their time tracing borders </i>in places where the automatic minimap tech is failing and things would see a dramatic improvement (examples: Elevator Transfer makes it look like you could walk straight to Mezzanine towards Server Room hive. And on the map with Caverns, the entire north part of the minimap makes it look like the entire space is wide open which is just silly.)
Or you could have a PR guy spend 5 mins of his time making a Twitter request to fans and they'll trace new minimaps for you, just for a little credit in-game.
Either is preferable to the extremely inaccurate minimaps we have now, and the best solution of course would be to improve whatever automatic minimap-creation script exists so that it actually understands walls correctly.
The aliens need something that makes movement more fluid. Perhaps a lot more "see-through" visual cues.
The reason the minimaps are broken is that they are auto-generated, and the tool that generates them isnt perfect. Geeze, you're all so diehard you want to believe bugs are features? The minimaps are SUPPOSE to be accurate.
PS, i found the ns2_tram minimap to be particularly bad.
Also, aliens should have a HUD minimap like marines. Lore? Who cares, call it hivesight v3.
Which is great, but doesn't make this issue mute.
<img src="http://www.subtleallusion.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/DS_5.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
try it!
tipp: alien commander isnt hard as marine commander ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true. I commanded Tram a few times and since then I dont have any troubles to navigate as an on-field-unit.
They're great, although they don't work right in spectator mode (incorrect image scaling, not sure if game bug or bad scaling of images in mod)