Solution to the spamming of grenades as a sort of shield: Grenades fizzling out when in proximity of friendlies as mentioned. Possibly as a compromise, have grenades do much more damage upon direct impact with Aliens than they do laying about on the floor (edit: as already stated...). This can be combined.
<!--quoteo(post=2016953:date=Nov 9 2012, 09:17 AM:name=RabidWeasel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RabidWeasel @ Nov 9 2012, 09:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016953"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd be totally happy with stealing TF2 mechanics - requiring a direct hit for full damage and making floor nades do significantly reduced damage. TF2 had the exact same issue with grenade spam and the solution made the GL into a very powerful weapon which takes some skill to get full usage out of. If you want to use this anti-building weapon against lifeforms you should have to aim properly and not just bathe your teammates in explosions to make them invulnerable vs non-onos.
In spite of how unfun gl spam can be to play against atm it is probably balanced though so it might need to get buffed somewhere else to make it more viable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I feel as though the TF2 approach is another one. So far the options are:
1: Leave as is; frustrating some aliens.
2: Add a slight penalty to friendly armor.
3: Fizzle around friendlies/reduced damage around friendlies.
4: Reduced ground damage with increased direct damage, increasing the skill ceiling for the weapon.
Most would seemingly give the added benefit/use to the flamethrower.
Make weapons destroy-able. Half the ###### problem with GL is that it will never be lost if it died within walking distance of a phase gate; so they become defensive weapons.
Pray tell how they are fine. As I have been seeing they are a 0 skill weapon that causes a massive amount of trouble/pain to most Alien players, and act as a shield for Exos/Marine clumps from Skulks/Fades, and to a lesser extent Onos'. You can have 2 people spam 8 Grenades and nearly kill a Carapaced Onos in a single volley, let alone what it does to everyone else.
That is just with 2 GLs, in bigger games you see even more of them due to the low skill ceiling involved with them.. All I am really asking for is two things.
A reduction in the usage as a shield mechanic on Exos/Marine clumps via a penalty moreso than they already have(the guy with the GL hurts himself, but if he's positioned fine it's negated) towards something that makes it so laying down just 2 grenades in a pack doesn't protect that pack from X amount of skulks.
And two, giving a secondary use for the Flamethrower which is being a defensive option when moving in a pack to essentially burn a skulk/lower level aliens off Exos alongside the use of the normal assortment.
Basically, all I want is a reason that would make the GL become less of a spam-fest win-weapon to a more inline situational support weapon.
Edit: To elaborate on my request for more of a reason than it's just "fine" is the fact that currently in a game where the Marines have any semblance of teamwork/skill versus a team of Aliens with teamwork/skill the Marines start to exhibit a behavior that is detrimental to an Alien offensive. There will be in a 12 person game, 2 groups of 6 at times(sometimes bigger, sometimes smaller). Shotguns/Rifles and GLs; rarely will you see a Flamethrower in the mix. The shotgun/rifle guys will be in the front, shooting at anything coming, if they get close the GLs drop grenades as they run backwards clearing any stragglers that got ontop of the Marines. You may get lucky and kill 1-2 repairers, but there will be a phase-gate or something somewhere. In an even game the only recourse an Alien team would have in the current game is send in a mass of Onos and pray that Onos push works at said point.
I have yet to see a counter that works besides, ONOS! NOW! Because the sad fact is currently the majority of Alien units are melee focused, and a GL shield has the effect of hampering 2/3 of those melee units to death instantly, and the 3rd will be hurting/mopped up via the shotgun/rifle/exos of the group.
<!--quoteo(post=2016257:date=Nov 8 2012, 08:19 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 8 2012, 08:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think a good start would be for grenades to be more visible. They should always glow yellow when within a short radius or something like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually this is probably the best idea I've seen. For something that one-shot's lower life-forms, having it be virtually impossible to see with hivesight is annoying.
Give skulks a chance to dodge, and you'll have a lot fewer dead skulks complaining when one volley team-wipes aliens. Makes leap more of a counter to GL's, especially for people that are not, in fact, Gaming Jesus.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have yet to see a counter that works besides, ONOS! NOW! Because the sad fact is currently the majority of Alien units are melee focused, and a GL shield has the effect of hampering 2/3 of those melee units to death instantly, and the 3rd will be hurting/mopped up via the shotgun/rifle/exos of the group.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerks, stop sucking and crop dust! Yeah one grenade kills you, but if you have even a little head-clearance it's *koff* *koff* then you see two or three GL guys off themselves. Whoops!
One of the defenses I see of the GL right now is that "It sucks when you are alone." Which is not completely true. Let's look at the options a GL marine has when faced with an Alien. 1: They can direct hit, or splash hit, the alien before it comes into melee range. Marine Wins. 2: The Alien makes it past the grenades and kills the marine. Alien win, BUT the GL drops to the floor [important]. 3: The Marine drops grenades at his feat and kills himself and the alien. No one wins, or both wins, BUT the GL drops to the floor (same outcome as #2). This is all assuming that it is a 1v1 scenario. When you add 2, or even 3 aliens to the mix the options stay the same but the value changes. In 1v1 is it obvious that, from the Marine perspective, #1 is optimal, #2 is the worst and #3 is about halfway between them. With multiple aliens, option #3 suddenly becomes a much better option that #2, so there is little to keep the Marine from killing himself to take down several Aliens. Also consider that if the marine is close to a base (with a phase gate) he can simple pick back up the GL and "reset to 0" while costing the Aliens several eggs. So, it is more accurate to say that the Grenade Launcher sucks at Surviving while alone, it still has the same killing potential and is significantly better than any other gun the marines have when dealing with out numbered odds. A possible fix for this would be to cause the GL to be destroyed if the wielder kills himself. It would make option #3 a worse option, especially in 1v1, while still keeping a viable choice for when out numbered.
<!--quoteo(post=2017553:date=Nov 9 2012, 05:19 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 9 2012, 05:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017553"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually this is probably the best idea I've seen. For something that one-shot's lower life-forms, having it be virtually impossible to see with hivesight is annoying.
Give skulks a chance to dodge, and you'll have a lot fewer dead skulks complaining when one volley team-wipes aliens. Makes leap more of a counter to GL's, especially for people that are not, in fact, Gaming Jesus.
Lerks, stop sucking and crop dust! Yeah one grenade kills you, but if you have even a little head-clearance it's *koff* *koff* then you see two or three GL guys off themselves. Whoops!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I honestly was ignoring the lerk because that's the only "counter" even then it does get affected by GLs, since the blast radius is nice and big. As you yourself stated with that second line there..
Something is wrong when 2/3 of the melee options are ruled out, and another is ruled out and the last option is "Pray my crop dusting kills them via their stupidity." That there is an issue that I see. There shouldn't be that issue, there should be a "Oh they are using the grenades as an explosion shield when they see all the Skulks/low level aliens that are left after a big engagement and the initial push is dead."
I guess you could say my main issue is, after a certain point the P.Res of Aliens is slow enough that the Marines can eventually win via attrition if there are even teams.. And the GL I guess could be a symptom of that.. Not the actual "cause" but a huge "catalyst" that helps it along.. Fixing the GL will fix the counter after a loss being more viable and leading towards a more push/pull system instead of an actual "This team wins because 5-10 minutes ago X happened".
I'd rather have a system where it's: W X Y and possibly Z happened instead of "Oh noes, Onos push lost, we have nothing left to use for the next few minutes as they rape the surroundings and make us lose." In essence i'd rather have it be a dynamic slug-fest where in the end the victor goes the spoils instead of a one and done, with the slow frustrating spam from the Marines that ends up coming.
Additionally, I would like the GLs fixed to better give a use/need for the Flamethrower because as it stands how often do you see someone use that Weapon?
I think grenades ought to have some penalty to firing near friendlies.
Reduced damage perhaps, or a proximity-alternative attack like that secondary mode gas attack that does less damage. Explanation would be so the grenade still works but is less lethal to marine troops.
GLs now are manageable if there's space, but in some tight corridors it's a pain, especially if it's near a hive so you don't have a choice.
+1 for using tf2 'nade mechanics. Also I think if you shoot a 'nade straight down at your feet it should explode immediately or bounce off in a random direction.
<!--quoteo(post=2017100:date=Nov 9 2012, 12:22 PM:name=MuckyMcFly)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuckyMcFly @ Nov 9 2012, 12:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017100"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->GL is awful weapon if your alone, the beta one with the attachement... now that was overpowered!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I miss that one, it was actually useful and worth the res
<!--quoteo(post=2017865:date=Nov 9 2012, 10:07 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 9 2012, 10:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ffs is there anything in the game which ppl haven't found a reason to moan about yet?
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->I know the solution.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
In NS1 you heard the firing sound from the GL itself from miles away. That way every alien could dodge grendes, count the shots (after 4 shots you could attack) and locate the direction of the shooter. This helped a lot and was a great downside of the powerful GL.
Yeah, it's not immediately obvious, but the GL's small clip size and painfully slow reloading time is its big vulnerability. If you're coming alone against someone with 4 barrels blazing, that's very tricky. But if you bait them just enough, that's a good way to gain an advantage.
If we want to make it really obvious for newbies, have some sort of "magazine empty" sound that's highly audible in the world, as a signal to all skulks to beat the marine's face in.
The issue is two fold after playing a little more against it. Gl spam is effective because most maps have about 60-70% choke points in which marines can hold up. And push out from creating bottlenecks as they push through small halls dropping grenade based shields. Thats the issue; explosives in small areas become death traps/shields. The problem only shows itself on larger servers due to the extra 2 GLs able to added to the 1 without gimping the amount of Exos/shotguns/rifles. It also extends itself outside chokes when you factor in marines clumping around Exos.
Yeah map design is making the GL issue worse than it needs to be, there's plenty of corridors where a floor nade will hit an alien that's stuck on the ceiling, some tech point rooms only have 2 narrow entrances and vents to let you flank offensive nadespammers seem rarer than they were in ns1 maps.
<!--quoteo(post=2017902:date=Nov 10 2012, 03:49 AM:name=Originengel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Originengel @ Nov 10 2012, 03:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017902"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow. Why don't you instead of complaining about it. Explain in detail why it is fine as is. Or just stay quiet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*sigh*
it is powerful, but:
- grenade launcher marines are easy to kill at close range - grenade launcher marines take an eternity to reload - grenade launcher marines don't hold a lot of ammo - grenade launcher requires 2-3 grenades to kill a cyst - grenade launcher requires 5 grenades to kill a clog - grenade launcher is massively unreliable against a whip - grenade launcher range is limited, especially with low ceiling - grenade launcher relies almost entirely on spam, making it inconsistent - grenade launcher is expensive, costing 25 resources and 20 res to research - grenade launcher is awkward to use near teammates/obstructions, as the projectile will misfire
now, please be so kind as to explain in detail why it is not fine as is... because i read the original post and it sounded a lot like "I RAN AROWND A CORNIR N DEID 2 A SPAMEDD NAED!!1111111one". or just stay quiet.
- grenade launcher marines are easy to kill at close range * Easy to kill, yes, removal the GL from the equation; no. If you read the original post its the situation that a marine ball is protected by said GL, if you are going for him, he is outside the pack, but behind them; I.E. You have to go through a pack of marines, in a narrow hall, that are being blasted with nades as you are charging on the ceiling/wall(STILL taking damage due to the big AoE of the grenades that are hard to see.), and if by luck/chance you get past with your group of skulks/fades, you are hurting, so they just turn and finish you off. The issue is as much the GL as the fact that the maps are made with the seeming lack of alien movement mechanics in mind, small corridors with small/medium opens in which a marine can clog up with nades/suppressive fire if they know aliens are around.
- grenade launcher marines take an eternity to reload * Usually not used alone, moot point, if you are going solo with a GL, you are a newbie/noob(depending on your ability to learn from the mistake or not).
- grenade launcher marines don't hold a lot of ammo *Negated by the fact that by the point you have the GL a competent Commander can spare the small amount of resources to restock the push.
- grenade launcher requires 2-3 grenades to kill a cyst *Who uses grenades against cysts? Most people will have 1 guy hatchet it while they cover him.
- grenade launcher requires 5 grenades to kill a clog * I'll give you this, but again, grenade launchers are never used solo.
- grenade launcher is massively unreliable against a whip *If you are firing directly at a whip with it, then you aren't doing it right, you fire off-target and the grenade will roll towards the whip and blow up.
- grenade launcher range is limited, especially with low ceiling * Moot point if you are targeting around your team and also, low ceiling is a boon as stated before, AoE of the grenade will cause anyone on ceiling to take damage so in effect its a bonus, less aiming required to hit people above/to the side.
- grenade launcher relies almost entirely on spam, making it inconsistent * Spam, with purpose brings up the very reason that other games have come up with ways limit spam/increase skill ceiling of use for it. Chief Example being the transformation of Grenades of TFC to the Grenades of TF2. - grenade launcher is expensive, costing 25 resources and 20 res to research * 25 + 20(One time fee for 2-3 people = at most 6.7 Res cost) = A boon safety net that is incalculable in cost once used. As stated, the issues arise when the game gains more people, more ranged damage starts to negate the aliens melee, making 2/3 of the melee centric classes useless, and the 3rd weakened to the point in which they can't get near to do anything. - grenade launcher is awkward to use near teammates/obstructions, as the projectile will misfire * The projectiles will misfire normally to your benefit with little thought involved.
What you read the original post as is irrelevant as I have stated time and time again, it's not the initial "OMG TURNED CORNER EXPLOSION!" as you put it, but infact it has the impact of there being no true timely counter besides running around the map at most points just to counter it. Which is sadly, a loss of precious seconds as they can push unimpeded into your base/area of control. Ultimately, I can concede that GL may be fine as is, but you can't deny, a lot of these maps are still in a state of "Needs more work".
And i'm glad you came back and explained your point albeit with a snide response, but at least this time you didn't come off as a troll/post count poster; which I appreciate and thank you for.
I'd rather have a discussion on why things are okay/why they aren't versus "ZOMAGASDA! YOU SUCK!" type threads.. Because in those, no one wins...
<!--quoteo(post=2018208:date=Nov 10 2012, 12:34 PM:name=Originengel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Originengel @ Nov 10 2012, 12:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2018208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- grenade launcher marines are easy to kill at close range * Easy to kill, yes, removal the GL from the equation; no. If you read the original post its the situation that a marine ball is protected by said GL, if you are going for him, he is outside the pack, but behind them; I.E. You have to go through a pack of marines, in a narrow hall, that are being blasted with nades as you are charging on the ceiling/wall(STILL taking damage due to the big AoE of the grenades that are hard to see.), and if by luck/chance you get past with your group of skulks/fades, you are hurting, so they just turn and finish you off. The issue is as much the GL as the fact that the maps are made with the seeming lack of alien movement mechanics in mind, small corridors with small/medium opens in which a marine can clog up with nades/suppressive fire if they know aliens are around.
- grenade launcher marines take an eternity to reload * Usually not used alone, moot point, if you are going solo with a GL, you are a newbie/noob(depending on your ability to learn from the mistake or not).
- grenade launcher marines don't hold a lot of ammo *Negated by the fact that by the point you have the GL a competent Commander can spare the small amount of resources to restock the push.
- grenade launcher requires 2-3 grenades to kill a cyst *Who uses grenades against cysts? Most people will have 1 guy hatchet it while they cover him.
- grenade launcher requires 5 grenades to kill a clog * I'll give you this, but again, grenade launchers are never used solo.
- grenade launcher is massively unreliable against a whip *If you are firing directly at a whip with it, then you aren't doing it right, you fire off-target and the grenade will roll towards the whip and blow up.
- grenade launcher range is limited, especially with low ceiling * Moot point if you are targeting around your team and also, low ceiling is a boon as stated before, AoE of the grenade will cause anyone on ceiling to take damage so in effect its a bonus, less aiming required to hit people above/to the side.
- grenade launcher relies almost entirely on spam, making it inconsistent * Spam, with purpose brings up the very reason that other games have come up with ways limit spam/increase skill ceiling of use for it. Chief Example being the transformation of Grenades of TFC to the Grenades of TF2. - grenade launcher is expensive, costing 25 resources and 20 res to research * 25 + 20(One time fee for 2-3 people = at most 6.7 Res cost) = A boon safety net that is incalculable in cost once used. As stated, the issues arise when the game gains more people, more ranged damage starts to negate the aliens melee, making 2/3 of the melee centric classes useless, and the 3rd weakened to the point in which they can't get near to do anything. - grenade launcher is awkward to use near teammates/obstructions, as the projectile will misfire * The projectiles will misfire normally to your benefit with little thought involved.
What you read the original post as is irrelevant as I have stated time and time again, it's not the initial "OMG TURNED CORNER EXPLOSION!" as you put it, but infact it has the impact of there being no true timely counter besides running around the map at most points just to counter it. Which is sadly, a loss of precious seconds as they can push unimpeded into your base/area of control. Ultimately, I can concede that GL may be fine as is, but you can't deny, a lot of these maps are still in a state of "Needs more work".
And i'm glad you came back and explained your point albeit with a snide response, but at least this time you didn't come off as a troll/post count poster; which I appreciate and thank you for.
I'd rather have a discussion on why things are okay/why they aren't versus "ZOMAGASDA! YOU SUCK!" type threads.. Because in those, no one wins...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this response is not good enough.
cheifly because you say the grenade launcher marine is standing at the back to cover his team and this somehow renders almost all of my points 'moot'.... now that would be true, if you were playing on a custom map called 'Le tunnel sous la Manche', but in all official ns2 maps there is always a flanking opportunity and/or an option to take an alternative route and force a beacon at their base.
<!--quoteo(post=2018230:date=Nov 10 2012, 02:58 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 10 2012, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2018230"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this response is not good enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry, but this response is better than anything what you wrote.
You completely miss the point, that is: Spamming with the GL does need no skill, but rewards you with multiple kills. All you need to know is, that you can't go rambo with it. Cover your teammates in grenades and they are invul.
Also alternative routs are way less available than you make it up to be. Either you come to late, or you die in grenade spam even from behind, because that GL guy got an JetPack.
The GL has disadvantages. Yes. And it isn't overpowered. But this was never the point. Its viability for skill-less spam is a bad mechanic and needs to be fixed. A game should reward skill not spam. Thats the point.
Comments
In spite of how unfun gl spam can be to play against atm it is probably balanced though so it might need to get buffed somewhere else to make it more viable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I feel as though the TF2 approach is another one. So far the options are:
1: Leave as is; frustrating some aliens.
2: Add a slight penalty to friendly armor.
3: Fizzle around friendlies/reduced damage around friendlies.
4: Reduced ground damage with increased direct damage, increasing the skill ceiling for the weapon.
Most would seemingly give the added benefit/use to the flamethrower.
That is just with 2 GLs, in bigger games you see even more of them due to the low skill ceiling involved with them.. All I am really asking for is two things.
A reduction in the usage as a shield mechanic on Exos/Marine clumps via a penalty moreso than they already have(the guy with the GL hurts himself, but if he's positioned fine it's negated) towards something that makes it so laying down just 2 grenades in a pack doesn't protect that pack from X amount of skulks.
And two, giving a secondary use for the Flamethrower which is being a defensive option when moving in a pack to essentially burn a skulk/lower level aliens off Exos alongside the use of the normal assortment.
Basically, all I want is a reason that would make the GL become less of a spam-fest win-weapon to a more inline situational support weapon.
Edit: To elaborate on my request for more of a reason than it's just "fine" is the fact that currently in a game where the Marines have any semblance of teamwork/skill versus a team of Aliens with teamwork/skill the Marines start to exhibit a behavior that is detrimental to an Alien offensive. There will be in a 12 person game, 2 groups of 6 at times(sometimes bigger, sometimes smaller). Shotguns/Rifles and GLs; rarely will you see a Flamethrower in the mix. The shotgun/rifle guys will be in the front, shooting at anything coming, if they get close the GLs drop grenades as they run backwards clearing any stragglers that got ontop of the Marines. You may get lucky and kill 1-2 repairers, but there will be a phase-gate or something somewhere. In an even game the only recourse an Alien team would have in the current game is send in a mass of Onos and pray that Onos push works at said point.
I have yet to see a counter that works besides, ONOS! NOW! Because the sad fact is currently the majority of Alien units are melee focused, and a GL shield has the effect of hampering 2/3 of those melee units to death instantly, and the 3rd will be hurting/mopped up via the shotgun/rifle/exos of the group.
Actually this is probably the best idea I've seen. For something that one-shot's lower life-forms, having it be virtually impossible to see with hivesight is annoying.
Give skulks a chance to dodge, and you'll have a lot fewer dead skulks complaining when one volley team-wipes aliens. Makes leap more of a counter to GL's, especially for people that are not, in fact, Gaming Jesus.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have yet to see a counter that works besides, ONOS! NOW! Because the sad fact is currently the majority of Alien units are melee focused, and a GL shield has the effect of hampering 2/3 of those melee units to death instantly, and the 3rd will be hurting/mopped up via the shotgun/rifle/exos of the group.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerks, stop sucking and crop dust! Yeah one grenade kills you, but if you have even a little head-clearance it's *koff* *koff* then you see two or three GL guys off themselves. Whoops!
Give skulks a chance to dodge, and you'll have a lot fewer dead skulks complaining when one volley team-wipes aliens. Makes leap more of a counter to GL's, especially for people that are not, in fact, Gaming Jesus.
Lerks, stop sucking and crop dust! Yeah one grenade kills you, but if you have even a little head-clearance it's *koff* *koff* then you see two or three GL guys off themselves. Whoops!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I honestly was ignoring the lerk because that's the only "counter" even then it does get affected by GLs, since the blast radius is nice and big. As you yourself stated with that second line there..
Something is wrong when 2/3 of the melee options are ruled out, and another is ruled out and the last option is "Pray my crop dusting kills them via their stupidity." That there is an issue that I see. There shouldn't be that issue, there should be a "Oh they are using the grenades as an explosion shield when they see all the Skulks/low level aliens that are left after a big engagement and the initial push is dead."
I guess you could say my main issue is, after a certain point the P.Res of Aliens is slow enough that the Marines can eventually win via attrition if there are even teams.. And the GL I guess could be a symptom of that.. Not the actual "cause" but a huge "catalyst" that helps it along.. Fixing the GL will fix the counter after a loss being more viable and leading towards a more push/pull system instead of an actual "This team wins because 5-10 minutes ago X happened".
I'd rather have a system where it's: W X Y and possibly Z happened instead of "Oh noes, Onos push lost, we have nothing left to use for the next few minutes as they rape the surroundings and make us lose." In essence i'd rather have it be a dynamic slug-fest where in the end the victor goes the spoils instead of a one and done, with the slow frustrating spam from the Marines that ends up coming.
Additionally, I would like the GLs fixed to better give a use/need for the Flamethrower because as it stands how often do you see someone use that Weapon?
Reduced damage perhaps, or a proximity-alternative attack like that secondary mode gas attack that does less damage. Explanation would be so the grenade still works but is less lethal to marine troops.
GLs now are manageable if there's space, but in some tight corridors it's a pain, especially if it's near a hive so you don't have a choice.
seriously?
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->seriously?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->seriously?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
fking marine armor is too green/gray, it should be more blue!
I miss that one, it was actually useful and worth the res
seriously?
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->seriously?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->seriously?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
fking marine armor is too green/gray, it should be more blue!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow. Why don't you instead of complaining about it. Explain in detail why it is fine as is. Or just stay quiet.
In NS1 you heard the firing sound from the GL itself from miles away. That way every alien could dodge grendes, count the shots (after 4 shots you could attack) and locate the direction of the shooter. This helped a lot and was a great downside of the powerful GL.
If we want to make it really obvious for newbies, have some sort of "magazine empty" sound that's highly audible in the world, as a signal to all skulks to beat the marine's face in.
Maps are a big factor in it. Not just the GL.
*sigh*
it is powerful, but:
- grenade launcher marines are easy to kill at close range
- grenade launcher marines take an eternity to reload
- grenade launcher marines don't hold a lot of ammo
- grenade launcher requires 2-3 grenades to kill a cyst
- grenade launcher requires 5 grenades to kill a clog
- grenade launcher is massively unreliable against a whip
- grenade launcher range is limited, especially with low ceiling
- grenade launcher relies almost entirely on spam, making it inconsistent
- grenade launcher is expensive, costing 25 resources and 20 res to research
- grenade launcher is awkward to use near teammates/obstructions, as the projectile will misfire
now, please be so kind as to explain in detail why it is not fine as is... because i read the original post and it sounded a lot like "I RAN AROWND A CORNIR N DEID 2 A SPAMEDD NAED!!1111111one". or just stay quiet.
* Easy to kill, yes, removal the GL from the equation; no. If you read the original post its the situation that a marine ball is protected by said GL, if you are going for him, he is outside the pack, but behind them; I.E. You have to go through a pack of marines, in a narrow hall, that are being blasted with nades as you are charging on the ceiling/wall(STILL taking damage due to the big AoE of the grenades that are hard to see.), and if by luck/chance you get past with your group of skulks/fades, you are hurting, so they just turn and finish you off. The issue is as much the GL as the fact that the maps are made with the seeming lack of alien movement mechanics in mind, small corridors with small/medium opens in which a marine can clog up with nades/suppressive fire if they know aliens are around.
- grenade launcher marines take an eternity to reload
* Usually not used alone, moot point, if you are going solo with a GL, you are a newbie/noob(depending on your ability to learn from the mistake or not).
- grenade launcher marines don't hold a lot of ammo
*Negated by the fact that by the point you have the GL a competent Commander can spare the small amount of resources to restock the push.
- grenade launcher requires 2-3 grenades to kill a cyst
*Who uses grenades against cysts? Most people will have 1 guy hatchet it while they cover him.
- grenade launcher requires 5 grenades to kill a clog
* I'll give you this, but again, grenade launchers are never used solo.
- grenade launcher is massively unreliable against a whip
*If you are firing directly at a whip with it, then you aren't doing it right, you fire off-target and the grenade will roll towards the whip and blow up.
- grenade launcher range is limited, especially with low ceiling
* Moot point if you are targeting around your team and also, low ceiling is a boon as stated before, AoE of the grenade will cause anyone on ceiling to take damage so in effect its a bonus, less aiming required to hit people above/to the side.
- grenade launcher relies almost entirely on spam, making it inconsistent
* Spam, with purpose brings up the very reason that other games have come up with ways limit spam/increase skill ceiling of use for it. Chief Example being the transformation of Grenades of TFC to the Grenades of TF2.
- grenade launcher is expensive, costing 25 resources and 20 res to research
* 25 + 20(One time fee for 2-3 people = at most 6.7 Res cost) = A boon safety net that is incalculable in cost once used. As stated, the issues arise when the game gains more people, more ranged damage starts to negate the aliens melee, making 2/3 of the melee centric classes useless, and the 3rd weakened to the point in which they can't get near to do anything.
- grenade launcher is awkward to use near teammates/obstructions, as the projectile will misfire
* The projectiles will misfire normally to your benefit with little thought involved.
What you read the original post as is irrelevant as I have stated time and time again, it's not the initial "OMG TURNED CORNER EXPLOSION!" as you put it, but infact it has the impact of there being no true timely counter besides running around the map at most points just to counter it. Which is sadly, a loss of precious seconds as they can push unimpeded into your base/area of control. Ultimately, I can concede that GL may be fine as is, but you can't deny, a lot of these maps are still in a state of "Needs more work".
And i'm glad you came back and explained your point albeit with a snide response, but at least this time you didn't come off as a troll/post count poster; which I appreciate and thank you for.
I'd rather have a discussion on why things are okay/why they aren't versus "ZOMAGASDA! YOU SUCK!" type threads.. Because in those, no one wins...
* Easy to kill, yes, removal the GL from the equation; no. If you read the original post its the situation that a marine ball is protected by said GL, if you are going for him, he is outside the pack, but behind them; I.E. You have to go through a pack of marines, in a narrow hall, that are being blasted with nades as you are charging on the ceiling/wall(STILL taking damage due to the big AoE of the grenades that are hard to see.), and if by luck/chance you get past with your group of skulks/fades, you are hurting, so they just turn and finish you off. The issue is as much the GL as the fact that the maps are made with the seeming lack of alien movement mechanics in mind, small corridors with small/medium opens in which a marine can clog up with nades/suppressive fire if they know aliens are around.
- grenade launcher marines take an eternity to reload
* Usually not used alone, moot point, if you are going solo with a GL, you are a newbie/noob(depending on your ability to learn from the mistake or not).
- grenade launcher marines don't hold a lot of ammo
*Negated by the fact that by the point you have the GL a competent Commander can spare the small amount of resources to restock the push.
- grenade launcher requires 2-3 grenades to kill a cyst
*Who uses grenades against cysts? Most people will have 1 guy hatchet it while they cover him.
- grenade launcher requires 5 grenades to kill a clog
* I'll give you this, but again, grenade launchers are never used solo.
- grenade launcher is massively unreliable against a whip
*If you are firing directly at a whip with it, then you aren't doing it right, you fire off-target and the grenade will roll towards the whip and blow up.
- grenade launcher range is limited, especially with low ceiling
* Moot point if you are targeting around your team and also, low ceiling is a boon as stated before, AoE of the grenade will cause anyone on ceiling to take damage so in effect its a bonus, less aiming required to hit people above/to the side.
- grenade launcher relies almost entirely on spam, making it inconsistent
* Spam, with purpose brings up the very reason that other games have come up with ways limit spam/increase skill ceiling of use for it. Chief Example being the transformation of Grenades of TFC to the Grenades of TF2.
- grenade launcher is expensive, costing 25 resources and 20 res to research
* 25 + 20(One time fee for 2-3 people = at most 6.7 Res cost) = A boon safety net that is incalculable in cost once used. As stated, the issues arise when the game gains more people, more ranged damage starts to negate the aliens melee, making 2/3 of the melee centric classes useless, and the 3rd weakened to the point in which they can't get near to do anything.
- grenade launcher is awkward to use near teammates/obstructions, as the projectile will misfire
* The projectiles will misfire normally to your benefit with little thought involved.
What you read the original post as is irrelevant as I have stated time and time again, it's not the initial "OMG TURNED CORNER EXPLOSION!" as you put it, but infact it has the impact of there being no true timely counter besides running around the map at most points just to counter it. Which is sadly, a loss of precious seconds as they can push unimpeded into your base/area of control. Ultimately, I can concede that GL may be fine as is, but you can't deny, a lot of these maps are still in a state of "Needs more work".
And i'm glad you came back and explained your point albeit with a snide response, but at least this time you didn't come off as a troll/post count poster; which I appreciate and thank you for.
I'd rather have a discussion on why things are okay/why they aren't versus "ZOMAGASDA! YOU SUCK!" type threads.. Because in those, no one wins...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this response is not good enough.
cheifly because you say the grenade launcher marine is standing at the back to cover his team and this somehow renders almost all of my points 'moot'.... now that would be true, if you were playing on a custom map called 'Le tunnel sous la Manche', but in all official ns2 maps there is always a flanking opportunity and/or an option to take an alternative route and force a beacon at their base.
Sorry, but this response is better than anything what you wrote.
You completely miss the point, that is: Spamming with the GL does need no skill, but rewards you with multiple kills. All you need to know is, that you can't go rambo with it. Cover your teammates in grenades and they are invul.
Also alternative routs are way less available than you make it up to be. Either you come to late, or you die in grenade spam even from behind, because that GL guy got an JetPack.
The GL has disadvantages. Yes. And it isn't overpowered. But this was never the point. Its viability for skill-less spam is a bad mechanic and needs to be fixed. A game should reward skill not spam. Thats the point.