Alien commander can do what a gorge could never do while still leaving room for gorge to be it's own life form, even if it isn't yet fleshed out it be all it could be right now.
So obviously alien commander all the way, but I think there needs to be work done on the gorge. More structures to build, preferably trap structures like a clog bomb to hide amongst the other clogs.
Those crying "how could it be that 1 single player could chose the chamber for the entire team blah blah blah blah" what do you think the commander does now?
Gorge is no longer fun to play. I dont enjoy it, and in NS1 I played gorge becase it was fun.
The gorge was utterly destroyed and has no purpose. even bilebomb is optional and not needed in any situation.
just remove it and put something useful it its place, or at least give it some meaning for its existance.
They're two different systems with their own strengths and weaknesses. I personally enjoyed playing NS1 Gorge more than NS2's alien comm simply because I don't like to comm very much. But I think there's a lot of value in having a commander on both teams, and you can't have it both ways.
<!--quoteo(post=2015517:date=Nov 8 2012, 03:41 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 8 2012, 03:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They're two different systems with their own strengths and weaknesses. I personally enjoyed playing NS1 Gorge more than NS2's alien comm simply because I don't like to comm very much. But I think there's a lot of value in having a commander on both teams, and you can't have it both ways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think this is the penultimate answer.
problem with alien commander = gorge has a 'gimped' role. problem with gorge = alien doesn't have a battle 'overseer'.
i'm certain that UWE will make changes to alien commander and the new gorge to make it work in NS2. no worries, there will be a compromise... and we certainly don't have need for knee jerk REMOVE THE ALIEN COMMANDER NAOWW!!!! stuff :P
I like ns1 gorge better then NS2 but I like NS2 commander better then no commander in ns1.
Personally I hope they work to improve both rolls in the future so we can have both in the game. Speaking about pub play right now as a gorge I feel rather useless in the very early game (before 2nd hive). Because of this I never gorge early game. Usually when the commander chooses which will be 2nd hive Ill go gorge and work on fortifying access to it but that might not be for a little bit. After hive is built I seem to be stuck in limbo until an onos comes out if there isn't free access to a 3rd hive.
As a gorge I would like things to do in the very early part of the game to help kamm if needed (not a huge deal if there isn't since scouting as a skulk is important) but more importantly I need more things to do in mid game after the 2nd hive and before a onos. I need to be better able to help my team of skulks and lerks secure that 3rd hive or important section of map.
<!--quoteo(post=2015400:date=Nov 8 2012, 11:45 AM:name=Daemonlaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daemonlaud @ Nov 8 2012, 11:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015400"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why? A sequel should build on its original, not re-invent the wheel.
Starcraft 2, not C&C 4. NS1 with better graphics and some great additions is what the community wanted originally, and what we thought was coming. So far NS2, while good, is not quite matching that vision.
So that said, if they made the commander a better solution, I'd be all for it.
But as it stands now...<i>.Gorge Bush all the way.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The big ball-ish ghost disagrees, this is called expansion, not sequel. Sequels should be something entirely new and different. As you mention Starcraft 2, if you go to the BNet forums and ask, 99% of the community would agree that SC2 is drastically different from SC:BW and really feels like a new game.
They're both enjoyable, and they should be combined so the Gorge(s) once again becomes the builder class but with RTS oversight. Only the Gorge should be able to jump into the Hive (or better yet, make it so the Gorge can turn itself into a "cocoon" anywhere on Infestation which gives the Gorge access to the Khamm mode). I've written a suggestion about this...
Seeing an Alien lifeform walking up to a Hive and disappearing when pressing 'E' is just sloppy.
I hate to make this assumption but I am going to anyways, that most of the people saying they like the alien commander more have either...
1) Never played the NS 1 gorge
2) Are lying about having played the NS 1 gorge
The reason I would make such a bold statement is that you can do everything the NS 2 gorge can, but more, and more of it, AND be the "commander" of the alien team. The NS2 gorge is not nearly as deep or fun for that matter as the NS 1 gorge and I'm completely baffled that anyone who has played both could ever imagine otherwise. Flame away.
<!--quoteo(post=2015631:date=Nov 8 2012, 07:33 PM:name=[R8]DJBourgeoisie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([R8]DJBourgeoisie @ Nov 8 2012, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I hate to make this assumption but I am going to anyways, that most of the people saying they like the alien commander more have either...
1) Never played the NS 1 gorge
2) Are lying about having played the NS 1 gorge
The reason I would make such a bold statement is that you can do everything the NS 2 gorge can, but more, and more of it, AND be the "commander" of the alien team. The NS2 gorge is not nearly as deep or fun for that matter as the NS 1 gorge and I'm completely baffled that anyone who has played both could ever imagine otherwise. Flame away.
Anyone who says they prefer the gorge, and then doesn't also agree that the marines need a gorge like marine role, instead of random people having to build things (since the reasons people are bringing up for the gorge being a better builder are equally as valid for marines) is simply suffering from stage 2 advanced nostalgia. Things change, people need to accept that.
You know, they both have merit. I like both concepts. I prefer the Alien Khammander at the moment though. It's hard enough to combat marines sometimes without having to worry about having even more gorges and people to defend them. A Khammander can drop ###### all over the map, a Gorge can't. The Aliens have it pretty good with a commander right now, and there isn't a good reason to remove him. Go play NS2:C for this kinda stuff.
<!--quoteo(post=2015638:date=Nov 8 2012, 01:42 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 8 2012, 01:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone who says they prefer the gorge, and then doesn't also agree that the marines need a gorge like marine role, instead of random people having to build things (since the reasons people are bringing up for the gorge being a better builder are equally as valid for marines) is simply suffering from stage 2 advanced nostalgia. Things change, people need to accept that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What?
I will be as ridiculous in my next line as you were in yours.
Anyone who thinks marines need to have a gorge like marine roles, should also want aliens to hold rifles and grenade launchers.
This is ASYMETRICAL (Im sure you know, youve been around a while) so a gorge role like in NS1 should not, never ever, require a simliar role on the opposite team. And this was true in NS1, aliens had gorges, marines had commander, nobody ever complained about that. People are completely pissed off with commander in alien side now, you do the math.
The gorge was a unique creature, it was totally gimped in NS2, it isnt fun, it servers no purpose other than vomiting balls of putrefaction. any competent commander will place crags for allies to go heal at, which negates the need for a gorge until an onos shows up.
So you have about 3\4th of the game where the gorge is absolutely useless.
That being said, the gorge isn't coming back as a primary builder. It was already an issue in pub games in NS1 trying to get players to drop res towers/hives/etc. so I'd really rather not leave it up to the charity of strangers if aliens get a second hive or not.
I miss the gorge, with OC walls with webs to catch prey, DC minibases in vents and whatnot. Coordinating who will drop the hive, get upgrades, and drop RTs. More teamworking. Now it's nearly unneccary for the khamander to talk to his team; anyone can coordinate the attacks. The ns1 way contrasts asymmetrically against the marines as having distributed inteligence.
<!--quoteo(post=2015722:date=Nov 8 2012, 01:19 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Nov 8 2012, 01:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015722"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would prefer the alien commander if he could actually get involved in the action, similar to how marine commander uses medpacks and nanoshields.
Right now he feels too detached, so I see them as unhappy equals. NS1 gorge was great fun, but lack of commander had its own problems.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Drifters. Otherwise known as an alien forward unit that can cloak, provides wall hacks automatically in it's LOS, and can spend 3 T.Res to increase the damage/attack speed of all aliens in it's area of effect. Also, Healing Mist + Bone Wall + Whip Teleportation + egg spam forward locations. (Actually, I'm not 100% sure that drifters up the damage of attacks. It definitely speeds them up though, so kind of up's damage either way.)
Nope, nothing active on the aliens command side! Move along, all the above is just a distraction!
Seriously though, alien commanding is insanely fast paced if you're utilizing all your abilities. It's just that not everyone knows about all the abilities yet, so newb alien commanders just cyst spam and forget about upgrades. (I don't mean this in a mean way necessarily, we were all there at one point.)
EDIT @DamDSx:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I remember every single Alien game I played since NS1 came out, as soon as the game started, 3+ aliens would run to an RT node, drop it, build it, and go back skulk and defend it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yet for some reason, in NS2, no one gorges at all at the start, middle, or end of the game! If everyone went gorge at the get go and put Hydra's up in the main hive, then moved out clogging vital nodes, then went back to skulk, they would help <i> immeasurably</i> during the early to mid game with protecting hives. As it is, Marines routinely ninja into hives and kill the upgrades with a knife. Yeah, that's some <i>awesome</i> team work. They don't even gorge to put up some hydra's and clogs around res nodes. They just die as skulk until they can fade or lerk, or just save up for Onos with zero gorges. That way, the game can take 45 minutes longer than it should to beat the marines, while still running the risk of losing well up to the point where it should have been Power Node GG. There is no denying gorges could use a <i>little</i> love, but what you're saying is that the community sucks not that the gorge is useless. Without a gorge, hives and structures take <i>forever</i> to mature. A good gorge works with the commander to get things going <i>fast</i>. If you really liked building in NS1, <i>why don't you try commanding the aliens team in NS2</i>? I'm sure you'd be great at it!
I remember every single Alien game I played since NS1 came out, as soon as the game started, 3+ aliens would run to an RT node, drop it, build it, and go back skulk and defend it.
That is no teamwork? please....
I remember there was always someone willing to drop a hive.
There was always gorges building forward bases and DCs in vents for lerks and fades and skulks to heal.
Seriously, gorge was the trademark of alien side (imo) it was removed and now the gorge serves no purpose.
And yet for some reason, in NS2, no one gorges at all at the start, middle, or end of the game! If everyone went gorge at the get go and put Hydra's up in the main hive, then moved out clogging vital nodes, then went back to skulk, they would help <i> immeasurably</i> during the early to mid game with protecting hives. As it is, Marines routinely ninja into hives and kill the upgrades with a knife. Yeah, that's some <i>awesome</i> team work. They don't even gorge to put up some hydra's and clogs around res nodes. They just die as skulk until they can fade or lerk, or just save up for Onos with zero gorges. That way, the game can take 45 minutes longer than it should to beat the marines, while still running the risk of losing well up to the point where it should have been Power Node GG. There is no denying gorges could use a <i>little</i> love, but what you're saying is that the community sucks not that the gorge is useless. Without a gorge, hives and structures take <i>forever</i> to mature. A good gorge works with the commander to get things going <i>fast</i>. If you really liked building in NS1, <i>why don't you try commanding the aliens team in NS2</i>? I'm sure you'd be great at it!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know... I guess youre right...
I will try to gorge every game at the start, place my hydras and clogs, and then skulk again, and see what happens.
It is the limited use of the gorge that keeps people away, people like me, who loved the gorge back in the day. There is no much use to the gorge other than hydras and clogs, however useful, they seem rather "useless" in the large scope of things. before one could build, reincorce, make bases for aliens who are working on a push, all these things were relegated to the commander, who most of the time chooses not to (very few games have I seen anyone make a forward base unless we are at marine start already...) I dunno, too many conflicting feelings!
You raised some good points and may change my view on the gorge entirely, nice!
Now about commanding aliens, I cant wrap my head around commanders on the alien side just yet. Ive been considering doing it but it just feels out of place. My most fond memories of commanding are from NS1 and that was marine only, so commanding aliens is just a bit "alien" right now.
Comments
Seriously, commanding is just... so much fun. Let just make it a little funnier to play gorge (and clarify khammander's view).
So obviously alien commander all the way, but I think there needs to be work done on the gorge. More structures to build, preferably trap structures like a clog bomb to hide amongst the other clogs.
Those crying "how could it be that 1 single player could chose the chamber for the entire team blah blah blah blah" what do you think the commander does now?
Gorge is no longer fun to play. I dont enjoy it, and in NS1 I played gorge becase it was fun.
The gorge was utterly destroyed and has no purpose. even bilebomb is optional and not needed in any situation.
just remove it and put something useful it its place, or at least give it some meaning for its existance.
i think this is the penultimate answer.
problem with alien commander = gorge has a 'gimped' role.
problem with gorge = alien doesn't have a battle 'overseer'.
i'm certain that UWE will make changes to alien commander and the new gorge to make it work in NS2. no worries, there will be a compromise... and we certainly don't have need for knee jerk REMOVE THE ALIEN COMMANDER NAOWW!!!! stuff :P
Personally I hope they work to improve both rolls in the future so we can have both in the game. Speaking about pub play right now as a gorge I feel rather useless in the very early game (before 2nd hive). Because of this I never gorge early game. Usually when the commander chooses which will be 2nd hive Ill go gorge and work on fortifying access to it but that might not be for a little bit. After hive is built I seem to be stuck in limbo until an onos comes out if there isn't free access to a 3rd hive.
As a gorge I would like things to do in the very early part of the game to help kamm if needed (not a huge deal if there isn't since scouting as a skulk is important) but more importantly I need more things to do in mid game after the 2nd hive and before a onos. I need to be better able to help my team of skulks and lerks secure that 3rd hive or important section of map.
That's not to say that the alien commander couldn't grow to be good in the future, I'm just saying that it currently isn't.
A sequel should build on its original, not re-invent the wheel.
Starcraft 2, not C&C 4. NS1 with better graphics and some great additions is what the community wanted originally, and what we thought was coming.
So far NS2, while good, is not quite matching that vision.
So that said, if they made the commander a better solution, I'd be all for it.
But as it stands now...<i>.Gorge Bush all the way.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The big ball-ish ghost disagrees, this is called expansion, not sequel.
Sequels should be something entirely new and different. As you mention Starcraft 2, if you go to the BNet forums and ask, 99% of the community would agree that SC2 is drastically different from SC:BW and really feels like a new game.
Seeing an Alien lifeform walking up to a Hive and disappearing when pressing 'E' is just sloppy.
I'll vote for <b>KHAMMANDER</b>.
1) Never played the NS 1 gorge
2) Are lying about having played the NS 1 gorge
The reason I would make such a bold statement is that you can do everything the NS 2 gorge can, but more, and more of it, AND be the "commander" of the alien team. The NS2 gorge is not nearly as deep or fun for that matter as the NS 1 gorge and I'm completely baffled that anyone who has played both could ever imagine otherwise. Flame away.
*edit* NS 1 gorge duh
I hate to make this assumption but I am going to anyways, that most of the people saying they like the alien commander more have either...
1) Never played the NS 1 gorge
2) Are lying about having played the NS 1 gorge
The reason I would make such a bold statement is that you can do everything the NS 2 gorge can, but more, and more of it, AND be the "commander" of the alien team. The NS2 gorge is not nearly as deep or fun for that matter as the NS 1 gorge and I'm completely baffled that anyone who has played both could ever imagine otherwise. Flame away.
*edit* NS 1 gorge duh<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyone who says they prefer the gorge, and then doesn't also agree that the marines need a gorge like marine role, instead of random people having to build things (since the reasons people are bringing up for the gorge being a better builder are equally as valid for marines) is simply suffering from stage 2 advanced nostalgia. Things change, people need to accept that.
What?
I will be as ridiculous in my next line as you were in yours.
Anyone who thinks marines need to have a gorge like marine roles, should also want aliens to hold rifles and grenade launchers.
This is ASYMETRICAL (Im sure you know, youve been around a while) so a gorge role like in NS1 should not, never ever, require a simliar role on the opposite team. And this was true in NS1, aliens had gorges, marines had commander, nobody ever complained about that. People are completely pissed off with commander in alien side now, you do the math.
The gorge was a unique creature, it was totally gimped in NS2, it isnt fun, it servers no purpose other than vomiting balls of putrefaction. any competent commander will place crags for allies to go heal at, which negates the need for a gorge until an onos shows up.
So you have about 3\4th of the game where the gorge is absolutely useless.
this is wrong.
That being said, the gorge isn't coming back as a primary builder. It was already an issue in pub games in NS1 trying to get players to drop res towers/hives/etc. so I'd really rather not leave it up to the charity of strangers if aliens get a second hive or not.
Right now he feels too detached, so I see them as unhappy equals. NS1 gorge was great fun, but lack of commander had its own problems.
Right now he feels too detached, so I see them as unhappy equals. NS1 gorge was great fun, but lack of commander had its own problems.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Drifters. Otherwise known as an alien forward unit that can cloak, provides wall hacks automatically in it's LOS, and can spend 3 T.Res to increase the damage/attack speed of all aliens in it's area of effect. Also, Healing Mist + Bone Wall + Whip Teleportation + egg spam forward locations. (Actually, I'm not 100% sure that drifters up the damage of attacks. It definitely speeds them up though, so kind of up's damage either way.)
Nope, nothing active on the aliens command side! Move along, all the above is just a distraction!
Seriously though, alien commanding is insanely fast paced if you're utilizing all your abilities. It's just that not everyone knows about all the abilities yet, so newb alien commanders just cyst spam and forget about upgrades. (I don't mean this in a mean way necessarily, we were all there at one point.)
EDIT @DamDSx:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I remember every single Alien game I played since NS1 came out, as soon as the game started, 3+ aliens would run to an RT node, drop it, build it, and go back skulk and defend it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yet for some reason, in NS2, no one gorges at all at the start, middle, or end of the game! If everyone went gorge at the get go and put Hydra's up in the main hive, then moved out clogging vital nodes, then went back to skulk, they would help <i> immeasurably</i> during the early to mid game with protecting hives. As it is, Marines routinely ninja into hives and kill the upgrades with a knife. Yeah, that's some <i>awesome</i> team work. They don't even gorge to put up some hydra's and clogs around res nodes. They just die as skulk until they can fade or lerk, or just save up for Onos with zero gorges. That way, the game can take 45 minutes longer than it should to beat the marines, while still running the risk of losing well up to the point where it should have been Power Node GG. There is no denying gorges could use a <i>little</i> love, but what you're saying is that the community sucks not that the gorge is useless. Without a gorge, hives and structures take <i>forever</i> to mature. A good gorge works with the commander to get things going <i>fast</i>. If you really liked building in NS1, <i>why don't you try commanding the aliens team in NS2</i>? I'm sure you'd be great at it!
I remember every single Alien game I played since NS1 came out, as soon as the game started, 3+ aliens would run to an RT node, drop it, build it, and go back skulk and defend it.
That is no teamwork? please....
I remember there was always someone willing to drop a hive.
There was always gorges building forward bases and DCs in vents for lerks and fades and skulks to heal.
Seriously, gorge was the trademark of alien side (imo) it was removed and now the gorge serves no purpose.
And yet for some reason, in NS2, no one gorges at all at the start, middle, or end of the game! If everyone went gorge at the get go and put Hydra's up in the main hive, then moved out clogging vital nodes, then went back to skulk, they would help <i> immeasurably</i> during the early to mid game with protecting hives. As it is, Marines routinely ninja into hives and kill the upgrades with a knife. Yeah, that's some <i>awesome</i> team work. They don't even gorge to put up some hydra's and clogs around res nodes. They just die as skulk until they can fade or lerk, or just save up for Onos with zero gorges. That way, the game can take 45 minutes longer than it should to beat the marines, while still running the risk of losing well up to the point where it should have been Power Node GG. There is no denying gorges could use a <i>little</i> love, but what you're saying is that the community sucks not that the gorge is useless. Without a gorge, hives and structures take <i>forever</i> to mature. A good gorge works with the commander to get things going <i>fast</i>. If you really liked building in NS1, <i>why don't you try commanding the aliens team in NS2</i>? I'm sure you'd be great at it!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know... I guess youre right...
I will try to gorge every game at the start, place my hydras and clogs, and then skulk again, and see what happens.
It is the limited use of the gorge that keeps people away, people like me, who loved the gorge back in the day. There is no much use to the gorge other than hydras and clogs, however useful, they seem rather "useless" in the large scope of things. before one could build, reincorce, make bases for aliens who are working on a push, all these things were relegated to the commander, who most of the time chooses not to (very few games have I seen anyone make a forward base unless we are at marine start already...) I dunno, too many conflicting feelings!
You raised some good points and may change my view on the gorge entirely, nice!
Now about commanding aliens, I cant wrap my head around commanders on the alien side just yet. Ive been considering doing it but it just feels out of place. My most fond memories of commanding are from NS1 and that was marine only, so commanding aliens is just a bit "alien" right now.
All in due time.
IM confused, im going to cry.