Aliens aren't underpowered
Imbalanxd
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
<div class="IPBDescription">they're just boring</div>I think the GURU Tournament showed us quite clearly that, at least at high levels of play, aliens really aren't hopelessly underpowered. If they were, every game would have gone 2 to 1, with the winning team getting marines twice. Instead you see in almost every faceoff that the same team won both games, whether they were marines or aliens.
Now you could say that this is just because its kind of balanced at that level of play, but that goes against what most people are saying about the game as well. Everyone seems to think that the skill ceiling on aliens is far too low, whereas marines scale incredibly well with better aim. If this were the case, the balance would get progressively worse as the skill level of players increased.
So why does the distribution of power seem so out of whack then? Personally, I think its the boredom factor. Skulks have become (or actually, always have been) perfect ambushers. With the reduction in speed and maneuverability, and marines being so much more deadly, its almost not a choice anymore. You HAVE to ambush. Here's the problem: In a game like NS2, which is relatively fast paced, sitting and waiting for an ambush is ###### boring as hell. We've been given this lifeform that, relative to other games, is capable of incredible speeds, and we are expected to sit on ceiling stealth walking around until someone comes past? Hmmph.
See, this doesn't matter in a competitive setting. The players aren't there to have fun, they are there to win. This was perfectly highlighted in the 60 second Archea game where, in the first 10 seconds of the game, the entire alien team run straight into a vent and... sat there. They sat in there for like 20 seconds, not making a sound. Granted, it won them the game, but damn, I don't want to play an air-con maintenance simulator. I don't want to sit looking at a tiny vent for ages.
Now don't get me wrong. Ambushes have and always will be apart of Skulk play. Its obvious. Tiny weak alien versus long range assault rifle = ambush you fool. But skulks are also meant to be known for their speed and evasiveness. High speed assaults are at least meant to be an option. I guarantee you, watch all the high end team replays from last night, and you won't once see a skulk charge down a marine within the first 5 minutes of any game.
We want to bounce off walls and ceiling, we want to strafe from side to side dodging bullets. We want high paced action with the Skulk. And if you can't give us that, why did you give it to the marine?
Now you could say that this is just because its kind of balanced at that level of play, but that goes against what most people are saying about the game as well. Everyone seems to think that the skill ceiling on aliens is far too low, whereas marines scale incredibly well with better aim. If this were the case, the balance would get progressively worse as the skill level of players increased.
So why does the distribution of power seem so out of whack then? Personally, I think its the boredom factor. Skulks have become (or actually, always have been) perfect ambushers. With the reduction in speed and maneuverability, and marines being so much more deadly, its almost not a choice anymore. You HAVE to ambush. Here's the problem: In a game like NS2, which is relatively fast paced, sitting and waiting for an ambush is ###### boring as hell. We've been given this lifeform that, relative to other games, is capable of incredible speeds, and we are expected to sit on ceiling stealth walking around until someone comes past? Hmmph.
See, this doesn't matter in a competitive setting. The players aren't there to have fun, they are there to win. This was perfectly highlighted in the 60 second Archea game where, in the first 10 seconds of the game, the entire alien team run straight into a vent and... sat there. They sat in there for like 20 seconds, not making a sound. Granted, it won them the game, but damn, I don't want to play an air-con maintenance simulator. I don't want to sit looking at a tiny vent for ages.
Now don't get me wrong. Ambushes have and always will be apart of Skulk play. Its obvious. Tiny weak alien versus long range assault rifle = ambush you fool. But skulks are also meant to be known for their speed and evasiveness. High speed assaults are at least meant to be an option. I guarantee you, watch all the high end team replays from last night, and you won't once see a skulk charge down a marine within the first 5 minutes of any game.
We want to bounce off walls and ceiling, we want to strafe from side to side dodging bullets. We want high paced action with the Skulk. And if you can't give us that, why did you give it to the marine?
Comments
We are there to have fun by trying to out-do ourselves individually and as a team, to push our limits and to have some stiff competition. Where does this notion of competitive players not having fun playing come from? It's not like we make a living playing this game ;)
You know what I mean. Yes, competing itself can be fun, but if for example, the mood suddenly took you to undertake some silence camoflauge lulz with your new fade in the final of the tournament, I don't think you would go through with it. Essentially you will always take the optimum route if you are competing.
Your posts are really off the wall sometimes..
<!--quoteo(post=1991112:date=Oct 14 2012, 12:48 AM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Oct 14 2012, 12:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->by 10 mins in a game sometimes you know which team is gonna win, you might aswell not play.... that is not fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not the case at all unless it was a big landslide at the start. Due to skill difference.
Your posts are really off the wall sometimes..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait so.. you enjoy sitting in a vent, not moving? Typically I like to cheat a little and phrase my arguments in a way that they can't be refuted, but I guess you managed to! Good on you vent crawler.
This is completely nonsensical. If the game was balanced then you would expect to see see even teams splitting rounds like 1 marine win, 1 alien win vs 1 and 1. Seeing one team just completely dominate means there is a skill gap that has nothing to do with balance.
How many games were won by an alien team that didn't also win its marine round? Tell me that. That right there is the statistic that in a large enough sample size would tell you something about balance. Though one tournament is arguable not a big enough sample size to show much I would still wager that very few teams won their alien rounds and lost their marines.
How many games were won by an alien team that didn't also win its marine round? Tell me that. That right there is the statistic that in a large enough sample size would tell you something about balance. Though one tournament is arguable not a big enough sample size to show much I would still wager that very few teams won their alien rounds and lost their marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are you talking about? The teams aren't even, that's why someone wins. There are minute skill differences which, in the end, determine which team wins. If the teams were even, no round would ever end, it would be a constant stalemate. But rounds do end because one team is better than the other.
What balance analysis seeks to determine is how much of a skill gap an imbalance in the game can overcome. So if Team A is 10% better than Team B, but Team B still wins, then you can say that some game mechanic is 10% imbalanced, because it compensated for the skill deficit. However, when two highly skilled teams go head to head, and the same team wins both times, then you must conclude that the skill gap which any imbalance between marines and aliens can overcome is less than the skill gap between the two competing teams. You can decide what you think that skill gap is, but I refuse to believe that Archea are massively and overwhelmingly better than Exertus for example.
Archea went 5-0 against exertus, 9-0 overall. Exertus went 8-6, with 5 losses to Archea. I haven't played with any of these teams yet and I don't have any idea how good they are, that said, your just making up unquantifiable skill gap numbers out of the air to support your point. Bottom line: 5-0 equals a pretty big skill gap at least on the day of play, maybe it was an off day for one team or a good day for the other.
Again the sample size of the tournament is too small to be strong evidence of really anything but my point here isn't that aliens are under powered (though I do think that for other reasons) but simply that your numbers don't support your position.
Ask the competitive teams, how often do they win aliens against a team they also didn't win marines? Then ask them what percentage of those wins are a lucky baserush or a straight onos rush? The answers to those questions will tell you something.
If you take the position that every outlier is simply a case of luck then yes, you are going to see a pattern very quickly.
I agree aliens are boring, primarily because:
- Skulk is not forgiving to play, certainly not for the average player, and doesn't scale as the game progresses. Lategame being stuck as a skulk is just frustrating.
- Gorge is not fun to play early on, dying to one LMG clip, you're pretty much a more vulnerable but mobile healing crag that can place 3 mediocre structures that are easily focussed down. Only with bilebomb is the gorge at least somewhat fun to play.
- Alien strategic gameplay is incredibly shallow, quick second hive is about the only viable route to go. (This relates to how terrible skulk play is at T1 as well)
But as you can see, it DOES relate to them being underpowered just as well. It's not fun to play a primary class that doesn't scale as the game progresses, even though the opponents do.
The majority of the alien wins in the tournament can be attributed to base rushes, early onos egg drop or just a significant skill differential. So yes. (Though mind you not all base rushes are pure luck, some are carefully orchestrated to outwit even the fastest beacon) I'm not implying it's impossible for aliens (in a supposedly even match-up) to win without a base rush or onos egg drop, but it sure is a lot harder.
Also, this wasn't the case for 'every tournament held until now' since pre b200 aliens were vastly OP and I remember tournaments then being incredibly one sided just as well. This is a very similar situation, really, but instead of marines it's now aliens struggling to be competitive (although they are arguably still in a better shape than marines were pre 200).
Also, you are clearly missing the point once again. To claim that aliens are not underpowered is ridiculous, to claim that they can only win by base-rushing or dropping a second hive egg is equally ridiculous, but there is really not much room to argue against the fact that aliens have it way harder to win games if they don't rely on one of these two strategies.
Not necessarily. When people say the skill ceiling on aliens is low, they mean for example: as a skulk you can't kill as effectively as a marine. But the game doesn't need to be set up so that you need to kill more in order to win. Rushing the power node or getting an onos egg and then winning as a result are two things that I would argue have a lower skill ceiling than playing and winning as marines. Just because you win as aliens doesn't mean the combat is balanced, which I think is what most people care about. Sure, you can have 50/50 win ratio with the aliens being incredibly weak and then only winning when they get an onos, but that doesn't mean the skill ceiling isn't low.
I also think just because you have a big k/d doesn't mean that more skill is required to play. As an onos you are pretty limited in what you can do. Even though you might be effective at killing marines and winning the game, that doesn't mean that it is rewarding to play.
You mean would I enjoy executing a sneaky plan to outsmart the enemy and take him out by surprise? Hell yes!
I am an avid L4D2 player and assymetric play is one of the most addictive things ever methinks. Forces you to really come up with all kinds of tactics to best your opponent´s abilities etc. Same here I guess, so I joined!
But the thing that increases further L4D2 sense of balance and... fun, is that both teams take turns to switch sides every leg of the campaign. Obviously this is something much more difficult to replicate here, since this is essentially a RTS battle, but if a formula could be devised, maybe a new game mode, to allow for this kind of "switch" (or something similar) and then tallying up points gathered for each team in both phases (marine phase and alien phase) then balance.. and fun! would probably be increased for all. Just a guess.
Maybe a game mode where both teams will be playing both sides (a kind of two round game) and where time is limited in each phase, and the team with more points/objectives at the end of it wins, etc. Or something like that. Maybe this exists already and my post is useless? :p
The difference is that in L4D2 you, as infected, always play a special infected. At the moment playing the skulk is a bit more akin to playing as a single meandering member of the horde
You're thinking of it as if you hear a marine coming, quickly scurry onto the roof, wait a few moments, the drop down and kill him. What if it took a minute each time, before a marine walked into a position from which you could ambush? What if 10 kills meant 10 minutes of nothing but sitting in a vent, waiting.
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the problem really is the starting period. skulks are too hard to play for a lot of players (might be better with 224 and the corrected collisions).
Alien suffer all the time. You just have to try to survive without the possibility to do anything. Then, if you managed somehow to resist, research second hive and some updates, the game starts for the aliens too.
That's where the fun starts and where it is almost balanced. Maybe a little (very little, no changes needed i think ) alien oriented if the marines aren't too organized.
Not bad at the end. but the first 10 minuts need to be revisited somehow or all the new players will probably get bored before they really get in the mechanics of the game. alien side at least
Well here are some simple comparisons which I think go a long way to explaining why people prefer marines.
PLEASE NOTE I'm talking mostly in generalisations and from the point of view of how a typical player may experience the game, not someone who is going to analyse it on a high level.
Remember, in the trailers and in the description of the game its said aliens rely on stealth and speed. But is the game like that really?
For 10 res any marine can fly around the map. Only one alien class can do that and it costs 30 res.
Marines can set up portals around a map to travel instantly from one end to the other. Aliens cannot. They have to run around the whole place. The vent system doesn't provide equal shortcuts for aliens.
Any marines can lay mines wherever they want which kill basic alien class. One marine can lay 3 mines for 15 res, and the number he can place is only limited by his res. If you place 3 mines in good spots you're almost guaranteed at least one kill. Only one alien class can lay a defensive object which is puny and almost never kills marines. There can only be three of these puny hydras per gorge and they are highly visible. The other option is whips, which can only be put down by the commander, again, they are highly visible and rarely get kills. Hydras and whips have to be grown whereas mines are instantly placed and almost instantly arm.
Marines can attack powerfully at any range. Aliens can only hit marines at melee range. Only the lerk can attack at range but that is nowhere as good as a basic marine rifle.
Marines have observatories which let them be teleported together at any time. The obs also scans for aliens nearby providing a sort of wall hack, it can scan anywhere on the map too revealing all aliens and structures. Aliens have no scan ability. UW removed the ability of infestation to show marines location. Aliens have to rely on their team to communicate movements of marines and coordinate their own movements. Marines can do that as well, and on top that they get a load of help from their structures and abilities.
Alien structures take long to build and are easily taken down by marines. Marine structures are quick to build and seem to be harder to destroy.
Any marine can purchase a 5 res welder to heal any structure and even player armour. Don't worry, getting this repair tool doesn't make you a repair class, you can still use your powerful and free weapon at anytime. For aliens, only gorges can heal and that is a very slow and boring process. Choosing to go gorge means becoming an alien pig which will almost always die against a marine. The pig has no melee attack. The game punishes you for going this class by taking away your personal resources when you try and help the team. The good thing about going gorge is you will spend minutes standing still holding down the mouse button waiting for a structure to heal up. That means you have time to reply to a text message or whatever.
Marines also have NPC robots which fly around repairing structures and armour. The alien NPC cant heal anything. There is an alien structure called a crap which does do something but scientists have yet to figure out its purpose. Aliens may or not know the purpose. Whatever it does, apparently, aliens need to build five craps for it to work.
Marines can chose a variety of weapons. Aliens can chose a variety of expensive lifeforms. Each lifeform essentially has one attack so you will be doing the same thing over and over again. There is no way to increase the power of your attacks through skill, like sneak attacks or assassinations. There is no enjoyable or effective ranged class or support class. If you want to make a contribution on the alien team you will be playing melee most of the time. The melee attacks hit marines and cause their ragdoll to fall down like a puppet. There is no dismemberment or gore to make it feel satisfying. Oh and that marine you just killed is already respawning with complimentary high level armour and rifle. If he kills you, you lose everything you saved up for and will probably be useless for the rest of the game unless you're a skilled player.
If you die you lose all the resources you spent to get the alien and usually end up waiting a long time as the basic skulk. The skulk does not become more powerful over time like marines do. What that means typically is the longer games go on the skulk is more and more useless. Whether or not you get a second chance to become a decent alien class depends on your team. Don't worry, this is an interwebs based game, and on the interwebs everyone loves to cooperate with strangers from different countries.
On the other hand, the basic marine class becomes more powerful over time and he loses nothing by getting killed. Even if he bought a weapon (theyre all quite cheap) he can pick that up again when he respawns, or another marine can.
If that's not enough marines have a cool little tank which can blow up alien bases, even through walls. It works by itself so marines don't need to spend time fussing over it.
If you get sick of playing aliens they have a commander class you can try. This commander class is designed to be a 'cosmic gardener' which translates into English as ineffective senility. Release a game called 'cosmic gardener' and see how well that sells!
Everything written above assumes your team of aliens have not quit the server after 5 minutes, and that one of the aliens is willing to play the dull commander class.
As the majority of players prefer marines you can expect your alien team to have at least 1 less player than them for the whole game.
You can be a martyr and play alien, or join the other players spamming 'j1' into their consoles so they beat others into the marine team.
But it is boring as hell and annoying playing as a skulk in late game I can put up with skulks at the start but when marines start getting A & W upgrades they have to much of an adjvantige over skulks, worse of all peoples answer to this is "well go a higher lifeform" and I agree that the higher lifeforms are balanced just now but I think the skulk and only the skulk should scale , so that if you lose for fade you aren't screwed the rest of the game.
Exactly. I think for those of us that have been playing the game for a while now, we've come to realize that the design of the aliens is not supposed to be fast-paced and action-packed like marines, otherwise UWE would not be making the changes that they do.
The way I look at it is, there's players that like doing low-action tasks like chomping power nodes, waiting in vents, baby-sitting hydras, etc. Those people play alien.
Then there's players that like a little more excitement and fast-paced action, those people play marine.
If this is UWE's intention, than the design is quite brilliant because it caters to many different gamer play-styles.
And for those that want fun, fast-paced action gameplay for both alien and marines... well, there's MODs for that, so everyone wins!
The way I look at it is, there's players that like doing low-action tasks like chomping power nodes, waiting in vents, baby-sitting hydras, etc. Those people play alien.
Then there's players that like a little more excitement and fast-paced action, those people play marine.
If this is UWE's intention, than the design is quite brilliant because it caters to many different gamer play-styles.
And for those that want fun, fast-paced action gameplay for both alien and marines... well, there's MODs for that, so everyone wins!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those 'low-action tasks' you describe like chomping power nodes or baby sitting hydras sound a lot like CHORES! :P
They're low action but that doesn't make them in the slightest bit cerebral.
Well UW have taken away things that allowed aliens to cater for players who like different game styles. The game design WAS brilliant in that respect in ns1. I loved aliens because I could be support/structure gorge, ranged lerk, sneaky skulk, or tank onos. Each class was extremely different.
In NS2 those specialities the aliens had have been weakened, they're bland now. Whats the difference between playing lerk, fade and skulk? You're always trying to get to melee range, to bite or hack at marines, the difference is only how they move.
The gorge can no longer place structures. UW say the gorge will get more structures but the structures that matter belong to the commander now. And few people like playing alien comm. Skulks are too big and slow to be good at sneak attacks. Besides, even if you land one bite you still need to land a few more because there's no Focus. You can sneak if you want, but then you're travelling like a snail while marines are fast.