Welder Fighting

elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
edited October 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
Do you like dancing?
If so, you should really try some welder fighting. I'm guessing its going to be even more fun in b222 with improved marine movement.

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As usual, making the video to show a point. Welder is too powerful (not necessarily imba) and has the following two issues
1) Too long range
2) Too big of a cone (i kill someone offscreen at one point).
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Comments

  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
    lol @ that skulk on the power node that didn't even turn around...
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited October 2012
    Well, thats the last time i switch to my pistol when my lmg is out o bullets
  • KuddlyKalliKuddlyKalli Yuggera Country Join Date: 2010-12-23 Member: 75905Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->LMAO! 10/10, would watch again.

    I was wondering what you were up to last night, ######ing around with your welder. Glad I didn't lose my lerk to you at 1:10, though I did miss some of my bites which was embarrassing. And LOL @ epic gorge fort on the catwalk in the background.

    Yeah, any experienced skulk has to be careful when a marine has axe or welder out. Welder more so because the range/ROF is crazy and it's guaranteed not to miss.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    We can has screenshot of the welder-hit-cone?

    I experienced a bug with the welder too. Sometimes as skulk when you engage a marine that is welding from behind you get damage. I think it could be that the skulk model is clipping into the marine one. (Because the collision sphere is smaller than the hitbox.) I think you clip into the marine model and reach the origin of the welder-hit-cone with your hitbox.

    A solution could be to move the welder-hit-cone slightly to the front, so the skulk can't clip into it from behind the marine.
  • KhyronKhyron Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Members
    Great vid... just one thing to add...

    3) welder can fire endlessly.

    You walk along holding welder on and it will reveal and kill cloaked cysts. No need to crouch or aim.
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
    They should leave the actual weld range as is though imo. Back when it was short welding your teammates was such a pain in the ass that no one ever bothered.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2012
    I now tried this ingame as well, to see if it was as easy as it looked and yep, it's pretty broken for sure.
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    A damage nerf would probably be for the best, the super pro weld kills seem to come a little easy now.
  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Welding in action is crazy enough, which is why I love TF2's system which allows for a little error and distance from the action.

    Range is fine, and could even be increased. Damage to alien lifeforms should be dropped as suggested though.
  • Squeal_Like_A_PigSqueal_Like_A_Pig Janitor Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 66Members, Super Administrators, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Developer, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Developer
    Agreed. This happened to me in a PT yesterday, where a marine welded me to death and I couldn't get close to him. Definitely the damage to players on it is a little ridiculous.

    --Cory
  • eh?eh? Join Date: 2012-03-03 Member: 147997Members
    edited October 2012
    The damage is not ridiculous. Just the range and rate of fire for scoring damage is too high.
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    Welding an exo I wondered how I was racking up kills doing nothing. Paid some attention and noticed 90% of the Skulks attacking the exo I was welding died by the welder.

    Yeah it's a little OP.

    Welder business: I think welder cost should be 3 res. I never feel like buying one if it's not to save a phasegate from being destroyed. I'd never, ever buy a welder for offense to weld my teammates, if it cost 3 res, I might.
  • antacidantacid Join Date: 2007-08-07 Member: 61821Members, NS2 Playtester
    The real problem with welder marines, is that with no LMG and no pistol, their movement speed is comparable to that of skulks.
  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1990632:date=Oct 13 2012, 01:25 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 13 2012, 01:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1990632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The damage is not ridiculous. Just the range and rate of fire for scoring damage is too high.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    What would be the difference between reducing damage or reducing rate of fire but leaving damage the same?
  • supsusupsu Join Date: 2012-04-24 Member: 151023Members, Squad Five Blue
  • eh?eh? Join Date: 2012-03-03 Member: 147997Members
    I'd rather it inflict damage slower while doing 30 damage per hit because if you invest the time to switch weapons and bank on killing a low health lifeform with your melee weapon with a small window of opportunity, and then it only does 5 damage while on top of the target; it sounds like it's completely useless as a last resort.
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    I think the damage is ok, look at how long it took to kill the full health skulk chomping on the power node.

    The problem is it hits your entire screen out to like 5ft. The cone is just way way too big making it far to easy to deliver that damage.
  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
    eh?, it's kinda hard to show that visually though...it looks like a constant stream of flame so you'd expect that it would be constantly dealing damage. Having it deal damage and then a big delay would make it difficult to predict the next time it will deal damage.
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1990639:date=Oct 13 2012, 11:41 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 13 2012, 11:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1990639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd rather it inflict damage slower while doing 30 damage per hit because if you invest the time to switch weapons and bank on killing a low health lifeform with your melee weapon with a small window of opportunity, and then it only does 5 damage while on top of the target; it sounds like it's completely useless as a last resort.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I kinda like that its a stream of damage - makes the welder behave differently to the axe imo.




    Its still pretty hard to score kills on experienced/decent skulks let alone higher lifeforms period, so its not exactly OP damage wise. Also, cara skulks are actually very hard to kill doing this. It's just that the large range and cone make it very easy to abuse against new players.
  • endarendar Join Date: 2010-07-27 Member: 73256Members, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1990692:date=Oct 13 2012, 03:13 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Oct 13 2012, 03:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1990692"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its still pretty hard to score kills on experienced/decent skulks let alone higher lifeforms period, so its not exactly OP damage wise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Have you come up against a marine wielding a welder? It feels much more deadly than your video shows.

    I'm currently trying to work out how to nerf damage output of welders based on steam ID.
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES&#33; FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS&#33; Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
    HE has, i can attest to that on many an occasion. welders definately require skill to use offensively, dont you crazies think otherwise.
    Though, i must say the range is indubidably ridiculus and must be reduced by at least half. More challenge for twice the fun!
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1990695:date=Oct 13 2012, 03:16 PM:name=endar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (endar @ Oct 13 2012, 03:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1990695"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you come up against a marine wielding a welder? It feels much more deadly than your video shows.

    I'm currently trying to work out how to nerf damage output of welders based on steam ID.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    lol :p. I never managed to kill you because you don't miss bites no matter the ammount of dancing i do. It's also basically impossible to kill higher lifeforms unless they're gifted to you because of bellyslide, flap, blink, hp etc.

    Let me try and clarify <b>why range and cone are the problems and not damage</b>
    <u><b>Range</b></u>
    'Bad' skulking will overshoot past bite range vs marine dodging and struggle to recover. Take the axe which basically has comparable dps to welder, much higher burst damage, but lower range than skulk bite. Axe isn't considered op or abusable in the least because its range still dictates skulk advantage.

    <u><b>Cone</b></u>
    The LMG costs 0 res and has way more <b>range</b> and <b>dps</b> than the welder. So why is LMG damage considered ok, but welder damage not? The difference is in the hit cone where you only need to point the welder in the skulk's general direction. The result is way more <b>damage uptime</b> for the marine with bad aim as long as he stays just out of bite range.

    In the end, poor skulk movement is adding fuel to the fire, but the fundamental issues of range/cone are still there.

    *edit* Straight up reducing welder damage is the obvious hotfix however if there isn't some way to keep the damage range/cone separate from the healing armour range/cone. You'll still be able to troll new players with it though.
  • Zomb3hZomb3h Join Date: 2011-01-27 Member: 79241Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Now I know how I'll spend the weekend kthx
  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Yeah, I had noticed even before the vid the range on the welder was quite large. I think a range nerf would be a good idea, but the cone needs to be identical or close to the building tool due to the welder's role of a building tool as well as a weapon.
  • DeadzoneDeadzone Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17911Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Has nobody noticed the extreme irony that the welder is better at killing than the flamethrower? (great vid, had me cracking up!)
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    You sir are the master of making a funny video that proves a point.
  • MisfireMisfire Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5764Members
    edited October 2012
    Had a lot of fun trying out the welder melee today. It is definitely deadly against skulks if you know how to dance around them, dodge the bites. It is pretty damn fun honestly, welded a lot of skulks today, some gorges and a fade. But yes range is a little much, I think damage is fine though.
  • phoenixbbsphoenixbbs Join Date: 2003-02-10 Member: 13379Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Subnautica Playtester
    Using a welder in "real life" is quite a close and carefully controlled activity - and it seems strange that you can weld / build while only having the object you're doing right on the edge of the screen. Not only that, but it looks a little daft when your builder / welder is pointing at nothing in the middle of the screen.

    Perhaps the cone should be quite tight, perhaps 25%, so you really do have to look at what you're doing to have any effect.

    That'd probably stop the random welder kills too :-}
  • TimMcTimMc Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143945Members
    edited October 2012
    Watching the video, I would think the problem is the long range and how its a constant flame.

    Constant flame = no timing required in your strikes, as you have with an axe. The damage should be low to compensate for this low skill requirement.


    It is pretty funny though.


    <!--quoteo(post=1990810:date=Oct 13 2012, 06:42 AM:name=phoenixbbs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phoenixbbs @ Oct 13 2012, 06:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1990810"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Using a welder in "real life" is quite a close and carefully controlled activity - and it seems strange that you can weld / build while only having the object you're doing right on the edge of the screen. Not only that, but it looks a little daft when your builder / welder is pointing at nothing in the middle of the screen.

    Perhaps the cone should be quite tight, perhaps 25%, so you really do have to look at what you're doing to have any effect.

    That'd probably stop the random welder kills too :-}<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If you want to take a page from real life - how about when welding you lose alot of your field of vision, simulating the welding shield that people wear?

    So drop from a full view to a tiny slit in the screen.
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