<!--quoteo(post=1986556:date=Oct 3 2012, 07:23 AM:name=3DKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (3DKnight @ Oct 3 2012, 07:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986556"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fix whips! 2 marines with GL + JP's = all eggs and structures dead in your hive if they get in (especially in cargo). With whips costing 15 res each and taking forever to mature, 2 of these should be able to throw away a lot of the grenades. Have them scoop up close by grenades that land in a radius and change thier damage to the alien side. That would REALLY make whips useful.
Marines would push into a base, see 3 whips and go "STOP THE GRENADES!, you'll kill us all!" giving aliens a break from the spam. It would also give the flamethrower a more robust role
If 2 fades get into a marine base, they can be pushed back before too much damage is done. 2 GL + JPs? (that cost 5 res less each) goodbye upgrades and eggs, and hopefully not your hive if you are lucky.
Take down the fire speed on GLs. Right now you can pop 4 off REALLY fast. If you have 2 people alternating the firing with an armory close by and you have effectively created an perpetual explosion shield around any force that is pushing through. If the GL gets taken out? another marine picks it up and continues.
The only defense aliens have against GLS are whips, but they are so useless that no one build them unless you have money to burn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No whips are fine. Once grenades stop being used to kill skulks at the feet of marines, it will be much easier to simply kill the marines firing the grenades.
<!--quoteo(post=1986571:date=Oct 3 2012, 10:42 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Oct 3 2012, 10:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ok so please explain what is "wrong" with gl<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me help you out <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121569" target="_blank">here</a>.
<!--quoteo(post=1986631:date=Oct 3 2012, 12:58 PM:name=mR.Waffles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mR.Waffles @ Oct 3 2012, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let me help you out <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121569" target="_blank">here</a>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh so your argument is that base level aliens should be immune to grenade launchers? the most powerful marine weapon in the game?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I too find the launcher/exo suit combination to be too ridiculously awesome, without an alien equivalent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1986640:date=Oct 3 2012, 11:25 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Oct 3 2012, 11:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->oh so your argument is that base level aliens should be immune to grenade launchers? the most powerful marine weapon in the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think anyone here is saying that skulks should be immune to GLs, rather that Exos and ARCs shouldn't be immune to skulks via grenade spam with no drawbacks.
Also, imo, shotguns are the best anti-lifeform guns the marines have, GLs are not.
<!--quoteo(post=1986644:date=Oct 3 2012, 01:31 PM:name=Benson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Benson @ Oct 3 2012, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986644"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think anyone here is saying that skulks should be immune to GLs, rather that Exos and ARCs shouldn't be immune to skulks via grenade spam with no drawbacks.
Also, imo, shotguns are the best anti-lifeform guns the marines have, GLs are not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats what a lot of you are implying. grenades are grenades, there is no "fix" because its a GD nade launcher..
<!--quoteo(post=1986648:date=Oct 3 2012, 11:38 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Oct 3 2012, 11:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and most powerful not best anti lifeform. imo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll give you that one ;)
The fact still remains that marines dont need an invulnerable shield against skulks, and isn't that what nanoshield is for anyway?
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@Venem: No offense but the fact that you have noticed that the intended anti structure, T2 weapon is the "most powerful" in the game and yet you are asking what is wrong with it makes me wonder why you are asking what is wrong with it...?
If it's role is not followed (Anti structure) then it becomes a jack of all trades and therefore the holy grail or "most powerful" weapon and the obvious choice in games. The same would happen if the shotgun had a small spread - it would become the obvious choice with so few trade offs. The tradeoff the GL is missing is the player damage it does.. because if its good at killing everything, why wouldn't i buy it everytime? If you are going to say that i cant honestly combat lifeforms with it, then you aren't factoring in that marines dont travel alone so that's not an issue - just have a buddy lob some nades at your feet, or use your jp to launch up and lob some nades at the ground? This scenario is the reason for a lot of the responses in here.
Imagine for a moment that the GL did 50% less player damage. Would this negatively impact the game in any way? I dont think it would. i think you would see varied squads when it came time to rush a hive - you would see 1 or 2 GLs, 2 shotguns, maybe a lmg or FT in there.. instead of 6 GLs with JPs that decimate everything. Remember that improper implementation of roles leads to lack of soft RPS mechanics which leads to one choice always being the better one, (as you noted) instead of each having their own purpose.
I feel like the GL is getting exposure as a great AoE denial weapon because it fits a particular niche left open by the removal of the HMG.
In NS1 the HMG took on the role of suppressive fire and raw damage. The GL en masse could clear plenty of Skulks and Gorges, but was useless if they closed the gap or really big lifeforms arrived. Now though the Exos soak the damage, lay down the fire, and overlapping layers of GLs create a region of death around friendlies. Plus there's a decent price jump between everyone grab a GL versus everyone grab an Exo.
A severe nerf of the GL to players would create a void imo. It's a weird gap between the Shotgun and the Exo. However, it would create the change people seem to want. Primary force using Shotguns, a few JPs, and Exos forming the column of death, and 1 or GL to lay AoE suppression on lower lifeforms and building denial.
<!--quoteo(post=1986677:date=Oct 3 2012, 03:23 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Oct 3 2012, 03:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986677"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Venem: No offense but the fact that you have noticed that the intended anti structure, T2 weapon is the "most powerful" in the game and yet you are asking what is wrong with it makes me wonder why you are asking what is wrong with it...?
If it's role is not followed (Anti structure) then it becomes a jack of all trades and therefore the holy grail or "most powerful" weapon and the obvious choice in games. The same would happen if the shotgun had a small spread - it would become the obvious choice with so few trade offs. The tradeoff the GL is missing is the player damage it does.. because if its good at killing everything, why wouldn't i buy it everytime? If you are going to say that i cant honestly combat lifeforms with it, then you aren't factoring in that marines dont travel alone so that's not an issue - just have a buddy lob some nades at your feet, or use your jp to launch up and lob some nades at the ground? This scenario is the reason for a lot of the responses in here.
Imagine for a moment that the GL did 50% less player damage. Would this negatively impact the game in any way? I dont think it would. i think you would see varied squads when it came time to rush a hive - you would see 1 or 2 GLs, 2 shotguns, maybe a lmg or FT in there.. instead of 6 GLs with JPs that decimate everything. Remember that improper implementation of roles leads to lack of soft RPS mechanics which leads to one choice always being the better one, (as you noted) instead of each having their own purpose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its an area damage weapon with 4 shots per load. each shot delivers an explosion. and you people are saying that somehow this is op because base level skulks cannot defeat a weapon that takes advanced research to get access to.
"it its role is not followed" - so youre saying that the gl's role ISNT to deliver said explosions to target area? its an anti structure weapon that if aimed correctly delivers damage to players as well.
"Imagine for a moment that the GL did 50% less player damage." - yes, lets nerf it like the lerk because the lerk was op right? or how about the onos because that was OP too. how about we imagine we stop imagining this imagined scenario where this imaginary skulk is attacking 2 imaginary jp/gl marines by itself and cries when it dies. then whines on the forums about how op it is and that it should be able to kill both of these marines because of X reason. its not missing any damage because if a player is firing grenades at his feet then all you have to do is either bite the player once and run, watching hilariously as the player blows themselves up (because of the damage) or just back up and watch hilariously as said player has to sit through the hilariously long reload while you kill said player. why is this so hard to fathom. i could see if the gl were destroying rows of fades but youre complaining about skulks dying to nade volleys.
yes lets half the damage on the nades to the point where its basically useless unless you attack en masse with them. and thats the point isnt it right? to make it easier for bad alien players to kill marines. the end result, nothing changes because base level skulks will still die because of the increased spam or less people use the nade launcher , making it the flame thrower of a few patches ago.
"- just have a buddy lob some nades at your feet, or use your jp to launch up and lob some nades at the ground? This scenario is the reason for a lot of the responses in here."
oh you mean that covering fire cheat. ok i now agree with everything.
this scenario is flawed anyway as a skulk with leap should be able to dodge the nades and anything other than a skulk should be able to kill evade or attack at will. if youre arguing that youre dying from a jp marine launching nades at the ground then maybe some of you should be questioning why youre sitting beneath a kiting jp/nade spamming nades DOWN.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
So you feel that the GL should be able to held by the whole squad at once, and that there's nothing wrong with this?
<i>"the end result, nothing changes because base level skulks will still die because of the increased spam or less people use the nade launcher , making it the flame thrower of a few patches ago. "</i>
This demonstrates my point exactly. There is no risk when a whole squad is using GLs! You can "cover fire" with an anti structure weapon.... o.0 ? At least with the suggested change there would be a much larger risk, and thus YES encourage fewer GLs on the playing field because you need "cover fire" from actual anti player weapons instead!
The lack of proper role usage is highlighted by what you said here in two conflicting statements: <i>" its an anti structure weapon that if aimed correctly delivers damage to <b>players as well</b>. "</i> & <i>"its an area damage weapon"</i>
It doesn't require correct aiming, because as you accurately pointed out its an area damage weapon? You just spam it in the general direction / bottleneck /at teammates and it does the rest for you? When do you have to actually aim your GL to get kills, I never do? Then when a squad of 10 start lobbing endless volleys of GLs it becomes a wall of death (especially at entrances when turtling). I take it you've never been on a ceiling when nades are exploding on the ground? You might as well have been ontop of the nade considering the splash damage done.
Lastly,<i> "this is op because base level skulks cannot defeat a weapon that takes advanced research to get access to. "</i> No, you missed the point. The point is the role, and how it not being properly implemented makes it "the most powerful" as you correctly stated. There should be no singular "Most powerful" among options in the same tier, ideally. You must think beyond your actual in game use and consider the ripples that occur from this improper implementation, and the downsides from it.
So i ask again, keeping the high level design document and soft RPS mechanics in mind, do you really feel that the GL should be able to held by the whole squad at once, with little risk to themselves, making it the obvious choice?
I'm of the opinion that the weapons and alien evolutions should be designed in a way to promotes diversity, and penalizes everyone being the same.
Everyone goes exo - cannot be beaconed, move slow, cannot weld eachother Everyones goes GL - cannot fight players effectively, instead devastate structures Everyone goes SG - Cannot snipe enemies or structures (not a huge penalty if I'm honest) Everyone goes JP - No penalty really, probably should be as its so cheap Everyone goes flamer - Limited range and lower damage considering price. Only good for lagging out players.
Everyone goes onos - slow, cannot fight jp, no healing or lerk support means will die *easy* Everyone goes fade - cannot destroy structures fast or exos (honestly this tactic is too powerful, and displays need for sentry guns to be defensive) Everyone goes lerk - Hardly any damage, you are all support Everyone goes gorge - Entire team can be killed with any spike damage weapon (sg/gl). Cannot offensively kill marines effectively.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everyone goes JP - No penalty really, probably should be as its so cheap<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hopefully once aliens get webs and other goodies they will actually be able to counter mass JPs, Regardless of that, aliens NEED a proper T1 answer to jetpacks. (Not necessarily a new ability, it would suffice to allow aliens to get some abilities on just 1 hive)
In regards to GLs, if they would simply unnerf whips this problem wouldn't exist. I rarely see whips stop gls any-more, they just get DROWNED the moment more than 1 GL is fielded. (Heck, Ive even seen a whip fail versus a single gl because the 'new' lobbing mechanic is ######... ) Building multiple doesn't seem to help, I can build 6 whips (90 f. t.res.) and they would still decimated by a few GLs
They're supposed to be the counter, going all-in GL rush wouldn't work if aliens actually got their proper whips back. AND we may actually see ARCs again because marines can't just GL spam their way through everything. It would be so much better for gameplay, really.
<!--quoteo(post=1986772:date=Oct 3 2012, 06:40 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 3 2012, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In regards to GLs, if they would simply unnerf whips this problem wouldn't exist. I rarely see whips stop gls any-more, they just get DROWNED the moment more than 1 GL is fielded. (Heck, Ive even seen a whip fail versus a single gl because the 'new' lobbing mechanic is ######... ) Building multiple doesn't seem to help, I can build 6 whips (90 f. t.res.) and they would still decimated by a few GLs
They're supposed to be the counter, going all-in GL rush wouldn't work if aliens actually got their proper whips back. AND we may actually see ARCs again because marines can't just GL spam their way through everything. It would be so much better for gameplay, really.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No I think whips are probably fine, because before they basically made 1-2 GL's useless, which is not what we want.
We want people to be encouraged to bring along 1-2 GL's, a few SG and LMG for a base rush, and discourage all 6 of them just going GL.
To do this, whips need to stay fairly timid - only reducing grenade damage slightly and prevent marines from knifing hives or walking past. In order to prevent grenade spam, grenades need to do no damage if allies are in the blast radius. Immediately it becomes idiotic to use them in great numbers as you will all get killed once aliens get in melee range.
What countered JPs in NS1 was primarily Gas, Focus Skulks/Fades, and to an extent Web. Gas, Fades, and Skulks were negated by Heavy Armor. Web you were less likely to run into in HA, so in a sense it also helped counter them. Plus Xeno meant you could wear down HAs unless they were supported with Welders (more cost) and the immobility made it hard to get around for map control.
That complimentary action is what made NS1 so fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1986772:date=Oct 3 2012, 06:40 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 3 2012, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The man above is so incredibly right, +1
Hopefully once aliens get webs and other goodies they will actually be able to counter mass JPs, Regardless of that, aliens NEED a proper T1 answer to jetpacks. (Not necessarily a new ability, it would suffice to allow aliens to get some abilities on just 1 hive)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so youre proposing that t1 should be able to counter t2+ ?
I must be playing a different game, because all the "GL only rushes" i've seen so far usually end up as an very expensive fireworks train that blows itself up/gets stopped by 1-2 decent fades or a couple of well placed whips. At least in rounds where teams are somewhat balanced in terms of skill and playernumbers.
Let's also not ignore an drawback of the GL, it tends to damage the Marine using it. That's additional med costs + important armor being drained without much effort on the Kharaa side.
Sure you can throw exo's into that whole equation, but then you also have to throw in more Kharaa tools than "skulks only" for it to be meaningful in any way.
<!--quoteo(post=1986943:date=Oct 4 2012, 10:32 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Oct 4 2012, 10:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986943"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I must be playing a different game, because all the "GL only rushes" i've seen so far usually end up as an very expensive fireworks train that blows itself up/gets stopped by 1-2 decent fades or a couple of well placed whips. At least in rounds where teams are somewhat balanced in terms of skill and playernumbers.
Let's also not ignore an drawback of the GL, it tends to damage the Marine using it. That's additional med costs + important armor being drained without much effort on the Kharaa side.
Sure you can throw exo's into that whole equation, but then you also have to throw in more Kharaa tools than "skulks only" for it to be meaningful in any way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read the thread. You are fighting a straw man. No one here is talking about GL only rushes.
The issue is that GL's are spamable non-skilled weapons capable of destroying anything trying to melee Exo's. Aliens have virtually no-non melee weapons. Therefore, grande launchers possess the ability to completely negate any sort of action against an Exo push.
As far as aliens needing more options, I agree. Aliens are missing all of their abilities that made them competitive in NS1:
<ol type='1'><li>Leap is terrible now</li><li>web</li><li>focus</li><li>acid rocket</li><li>adrenaline is terrible</li><li>devour</li><li>xenocide is worthless</li><li>babblers</li><li>Healing spray is nerfed</li></ol>
The most fun in NS1 was using leap to launch into jet packing marines like a rocket. That's how you took down jetpackers. READY AIM FIRE! I miss those times. Now, the aliens have no counter to jet packs, no ranged damage, and no way to deal with grenade launchers. Whips pretty much shut down grenades primary purpose, as an anti-structure siege weapon, so now we have spamable area denial super weapons. It makes no sense.
PS: I forgot to add that marine resource retention is infinitely better. Not only can they remain on 3/3 upgrades with one CC, but they can regain lost weapons. If aliens lose mid game fades they might as well F4.
<!--quoteo(post=1985650:date=Oct 1 2012, 08:09 AM:name=Shnagenburg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shnagenburg @ Oct 1 2012, 08:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1985650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is this its intended use? I feel like its role as a siege weapon (shooting around corners, applying pressure to fortifications) is rare, but more often it is used to cover exos from skulks and wiping out fields of spawn eggs. Additionally, it is very good at clearing marine buildings and power nodes being focused down by a pack of aliens.
And by very good I mean extremely good. In the chaos of battle and the loud bites, it is hard to hear the grenades, they're very hard to see, and they're extremely volatile (if I'm not mistaken, one grenade will kill a carapaced skulk). I feel it is safe to say that in the case of direct exo engagements, skulks are considered to be a good option. But exos covered by a GL or two are incredibly hard to deal with for aliens.
Currently, I find aliens defeating the exo/gl combination by backdooring a base, forcing a beacon, and engaging the grenade launchers and exos separately. This feels like the only option in many circumstances.
That's not to say the grenade launcher shouldn't be good, they're expensive and high on the tech tree. But they're not siege weapons as I see it. With whips, it makes sense that they're not. Are there any plans to add some sort of hud icon to make it easier for aliens to avoid them?
Lastly, a loose analog and perhaps a poor comparison to the grenade launcher would be xenocide. Xenocide won't one-shot a 3/3 marine and additionally it costs a life to use. What do you guys think about the state of the grenade launcher?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's the original post, short of him saying used to defend exos which is the only thing any of you are really latching onto, it's a stupid argument. He's complaining cause GL's can kill eggs... Well holy crap so does a flame thrower. It's good at blowing up a bunch of dumb skulks on a power node or res tower, yea that makes perfect sense.
If war fighting was up to all of you apparently we'd still be in open engagements standing in fields in ranks shooting and hoping for the best. It's called improvisation, you don't like the way it's being used because it requires a team effort to do, and so it required a team effort to counter. If your team doesn't work together yea that's going to happen, but guess what this is a TEAM based game not an individual 1 on 1 game. If you're always rushing alone, you're going to die, the best players typically stick with their team.
<!--quoteo(post=1986947:date=Oct 4 2012, 03:47 PM:name=mR.Waffles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mR.Waffles @ Oct 4 2012, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986947"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Read the thread. You are fighting a straw man. No one here is talking about GL only rushes.
The issue is that GL's are spamable non-skilled weapons capable of destroying anything trying to melee Exo's. Aliens have virtually no-non melee weapons. Therefore, grande launchers possess the ability to completely negate any sort of action against an Exo push.
As far as aliens needing more options, I agree. Aliens are missing all of their abilities that made them competitive in NS1:
<ol type='1'><li>Leap is terrible now</li><li>web</li><li>focus</li><li>acid rocket</li><li>adrenaline is terrible</li><li>devour</li><li>xenocide is worthless</li><li>babblers</li><li>Healing spray is nerfed</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree.
It can be really boring playing alien; the feeling of futility, having nothing effective to use, fighting marines who have a solution to everything, more mobility, greater range, useful structures and gadgets. Marines even have their own gorge in the form of the MAC - which can actually build structures!
I think eventually Charlie will have to let the gorge build key structures or else do away with the gorge altogether. It's a slow, cumbersome class that has one very very boring & slow heal ability, and bile bomb, which you have to wait ages for and requires no skill. The gorge's structures have been nerfed so heavily they're only a minor help at the earliest stages of rounds. For helping the team as a gorge the game penalises you, taking away your res for using the level 1 abilities. Usually my teammates will run past me straight for the hive and crags because they know the gorges is a poor healing class.
UWE should put the focus more on skulks and gorges. These are the classes people play for whole rounds. They shouldn't be the most broken ones!
Watching the trailer for NS2: Classic mod brought a tear to my eye, seeing the gorge drop crags on walls and ceiling :'(
It can be really boring playing alien; the feeling of futility, having nothing effective to use, fighting marines who have a solution to everything, more mobility, greater range, useful structures and gadgets. Marines even have their own gorge in the form of the MAC - which can actually build structures!
I think eventually Charlie will have to let the gorge build key structures or else do away with the gorge altogether.
Watching the trailer for NS2: Classic mod brought a tear to my eye, seeing the gorge drop crags on walls and ceiling :'(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is just another example of why I believe gorges should get spinfusors.
Comments
Marines would push into a base, see 3 whips and go "STOP THE GRENADES!, you'll kill us all!" giving aliens a break from the spam. It would also give the flamethrower a more robust role
If 2 fades get into a marine base, they can be pushed back before too much damage is done. 2 GL + JPs? (that cost 5 res less each) goodbye upgrades and eggs, and hopefully not your hive if you are lucky.
Take down the fire speed on GLs. Right now you can pop 4 off REALLY fast. If you have 2 people alternating the firing with an armory close by and you have effectively created an perpetual explosion shield around any force that is pushing through. If the GL gets taken out? another marine picks it up and continues.
The only defense aliens have against GLS are whips, but they are so useless that no one build them unless you have money to burn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No whips are fine. Once grenades stop being used to kill skulks at the feet of marines, it will be much easier to simply kill the marines firing the grenades.
ever seen gas take out 5 lvl 3 marines with sg's and gls at once? Yes.
Ever seen grenades take out 5 fades? No
its asymmetrical play. Get use to it.
Let me help you out <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121569" target="_blank">here</a>.
oh so your argument is that base level aliens should be immune to grenade launchers? the most powerful marine weapon in the game?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I too find the launcher/exo suit combination to be too ridiculously awesome, without an alien equivalent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-.-
I don't think anyone here is saying that skulks should be immune to GLs, rather that Exos and ARCs shouldn't be immune to skulks via grenade spam with no drawbacks.
Also, imo, shotguns are the best anti-lifeform guns the marines have, GLs are not.
Also, imo, shotguns are the best anti-lifeform guns the marines have, GLs are not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats what a lot of you are implying. grenades are grenades, there is no "fix" because its a GD nade launcher..
and most powerful not best anti lifeform. imo
I'll give you that one ;)
The fact still remains that marines dont need an invulnerable shield against skulks, and isn't that what nanoshield is for anyway?
If it's role is not followed (Anti structure) then it becomes a jack of all trades and therefore the holy grail or "most powerful" weapon and the obvious choice in games.
The same would happen if the shotgun had a small spread - it would become the obvious choice with so few trade offs.
The tradeoff the GL is missing is the player damage it does.. because if its good at killing everything, why wouldn't i buy it everytime? If you are going to say that i cant honestly combat lifeforms with it, then you aren't factoring in that marines dont travel alone so that's not an issue - just have a buddy lob some nades at your feet, or use your jp to launch up and lob some nades at the ground? This scenario is the reason for a lot of the responses in here.
Imagine for a moment that the GL did 50% less player damage.
Would this negatively impact the game in any way? I dont think it would. i think you would see varied squads when it came time to rush a hive - you would see 1 or 2 GLs, 2 shotguns, maybe a lmg or FT in there.. instead of 6 GLs with JPs that decimate everything.
Remember that improper implementation of roles leads to lack of soft RPS mechanics which leads to one choice always being the better one, (as you noted) instead of each having their own purpose.
In NS1 the HMG took on the role of suppressive fire and raw damage. The GL en masse could clear plenty of Skulks and Gorges, but was useless if they closed the gap or really big lifeforms arrived. Now though the Exos soak the damage, lay down the fire, and overlapping layers of GLs create a region of death around friendlies. Plus there's a decent price jump between everyone grab a GL versus everyone grab an Exo.
A severe nerf of the GL to players would create a void imo. It's a weird gap between the Shotgun and the Exo. However, it would create the change people seem to want. Primary force using Shotguns, a few JPs, and Exos forming the column of death, and 1 or GL to lay AoE suppression on lower lifeforms and building denial.
If it's role is not followed (Anti structure) then it becomes a jack of all trades and therefore the holy grail or "most powerful" weapon and the obvious choice in games.
The same would happen if the shotgun had a small spread - it would become the obvious choice with so few trade offs.
The tradeoff the GL is missing is the player damage it does.. because if its good at killing everything, why wouldn't i buy it everytime? If you are going to say that i cant honestly combat lifeforms with it, then you aren't factoring in that marines dont travel alone so that's not an issue - just have a buddy lob some nades at your feet, or use your jp to launch up and lob some nades at the ground? This scenario is the reason for a lot of the responses in here.
Imagine for a moment that the GL did 50% less player damage.
Would this negatively impact the game in any way? I dont think it would. i think you would see varied squads when it came time to rush a hive - you would see 1 or 2 GLs, 2 shotguns, maybe a lmg or FT in there.. instead of 6 GLs with JPs that decimate everything.
Remember that improper implementation of roles leads to lack of soft RPS mechanics which leads to one choice always being the better one, (as you noted) instead of each having their own purpose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its an area damage weapon with 4 shots per load. each shot delivers an explosion. and you people are saying that somehow this is op because base level skulks cannot defeat a weapon that takes advanced research to get access to.
"it its role is not followed" - so youre saying that the gl's role ISNT to deliver said explosions to target area? its an anti structure weapon that if aimed correctly delivers damage to players as well.
"Imagine for a moment that the GL did 50% less player damage." - yes, lets nerf it like the lerk because the lerk was op right? or how about the onos because that was OP too. how about we imagine we stop imagining this imagined scenario where this imaginary skulk is attacking 2 imaginary jp/gl marines by itself and cries when it dies. then whines on the forums about how op it is and that it should be able to kill both of these marines because of X reason. its not missing any damage because if a player is firing grenades at his feet then all you have to do is either bite the player once and run, watching hilariously as the player blows themselves up (because of the damage) or just back up and watch hilariously as said player has to sit through the hilariously long reload while you kill said player. why is this so hard to fathom. i could see if the gl were destroying rows of fades but youre complaining about skulks dying to nade volleys.
yes lets half the damage on the nades to the point where its basically useless unless you attack en masse with them. and thats the point isnt it right? to make it easier for bad alien players to kill marines. the end result, nothing changes because base level skulks will still die because of the increased spam or less people use the nade launcher , making it the flame thrower of a few patches ago.
"- just have a buddy lob some nades at your feet, or use your jp to launch up and lob some nades at the ground? This scenario is the reason for a lot of the responses in here."
oh you mean that covering fire cheat. ok i now agree with everything.
this scenario is flawed anyway as a skulk with leap should be able to dodge the nades and anything other than a skulk should be able to kill evade or attack at will. if youre arguing that youre dying from a jp marine launching nades at the ground then maybe some of you should be questioning why youre sitting beneath a kiting jp/nade spamming nades DOWN.
<i>"the end result, nothing changes because base level skulks will still die because of the increased spam or less people use the nade launcher , making it the flame thrower of a few patches ago. "</i>
This demonstrates my point exactly. There is no risk when a whole squad is using GLs! You can "cover fire" with an anti structure weapon.... o.0 ?
At least with the suggested change there would be a much larger risk, and thus YES encourage fewer GLs on the playing field because you need "cover fire" from actual anti player weapons instead!
The lack of proper role usage is highlighted by what you said here in two conflicting statements: <i>" its an anti structure weapon that if aimed correctly delivers damage to <b>players as well</b>. "</i> & <i>"its an area damage weapon"</i>
It doesn't require correct aiming, because as you accurately pointed out its an area damage weapon? You just spam it in the general direction / bottleneck /at teammates and it does the rest for you? When do you have to actually aim your GL to get kills, I never do? Then when a squad of 10 start lobbing endless volleys of GLs it becomes a wall of death (especially at entrances when turtling). I take it you've never been on a ceiling when nades are exploding on the ground? You might as well have been ontop of the nade considering the splash damage done.
Lastly,<i> "this is op because base level skulks cannot defeat a weapon that takes advanced research to get access to. "</i>
No, you missed the point.
The point is the role, and how it not being properly implemented makes it "the most powerful" as you correctly stated. There should be no singular "Most powerful" among options in the same tier, ideally. You must think beyond your actual in game use and consider the ripples that occur from this improper implementation, and the downsides from it.
So i ask again, keeping the high level design document and soft RPS mechanics in mind, do you really feel that the GL should be able to held by the whole squad at once, with little risk to themselves, making it the obvious choice?
I'm of the opinion that the weapons and alien evolutions should be designed in a way to promotes diversity, and penalizes everyone being the same.
Everyone goes exo - cannot be beaconed, move slow, cannot weld eachother
Everyones goes GL - cannot fight players effectively, instead devastate structures
Everyone goes SG - Cannot snipe enemies or structures (not a huge penalty if I'm honest)
Everyone goes JP - No penalty really, probably should be as its so cheap
Everyone goes flamer - Limited range and lower damage considering price. Only good for lagging out players.
Everyone goes onos - slow, cannot fight jp, no healing or lerk support means will die *easy*
Everyone goes fade - cannot destroy structures fast or exos (honestly this tactic is too powerful, and displays need for sentry guns to be defensive)
Everyone goes lerk - Hardly any damage, you are all support
Everyone goes gorge - Entire team can be killed with any spike damage weapon (sg/gl). Cannot offensively kill marines effectively.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everyone goes JP - No penalty really, probably should be as its so cheap<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hopefully once aliens get webs and other goodies they will actually be able to counter mass JPs, Regardless of that, aliens NEED a proper T1 answer to jetpacks. (Not necessarily a new ability, it would suffice to allow aliens to get some abilities on just 1 hive)
In regards to GLs, if they would simply unnerf whips this problem wouldn't exist. I rarely see whips stop gls any-more, they just get DROWNED the moment more than 1 GL is fielded. (Heck, Ive even seen a whip fail versus a single gl because the 'new' lobbing mechanic is ######... ) Building multiple doesn't seem to help, I can build 6 whips (90 f. t.res.) and they would still decimated by a few GLs
They're supposed to be the counter, going all-in GL rush wouldn't work if aliens actually got their proper whips back. AND we may actually see ARCs again because marines can't just GL spam their way through everything. It would be so much better for gameplay, really.
They're supposed to be the counter, going all-in GL rush wouldn't work if aliens actually got their proper whips back. AND we may actually see ARCs again because marines can't just GL spam their way through everything. It would be so much better for gameplay, really.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No I think whips are probably fine, because before they basically made 1-2 GL's useless, which is not what we want.
We want people to be encouraged to bring along 1-2 GL's, a few SG and LMG for a base rush, and discourage all 6 of them just going GL.
To do this, whips need to stay fairly timid - only reducing grenade damage slightly and prevent marines from knifing hives or walking past. In order to prevent grenade spam, grenades need to do no damage if allies are in the blast radius. Immediately it becomes idiotic to use them in great numbers as you will all get killed once aliens get in melee range.
That complimentary action is what made NS1 so fun.
Hopefully once aliens get webs and other goodies they will actually be able to counter mass JPs, Regardless of that, aliens NEED a proper T1 answer to jetpacks. (Not necessarily a new ability, it would suffice to allow aliens to get some abilities on just 1 hive)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so youre proposing that t1 should be able to counter t2+ ?
Let's also not ignore an drawback of the GL, it tends to damage the Marine using it. That's additional med costs + important armor being drained without much effort on the Kharaa side.
Sure you can throw exo's into that whole equation, but then you also have to throw in more Kharaa tools than "skulks only" for it to be meaningful in any way.
Let's also not ignore an drawback of the GL, it tends to damage the Marine using it. That's additional med costs + important armor being drained without much effort on the Kharaa side.
Sure you can throw exo's into that whole equation, but then you also have to throw in more Kharaa tools than "skulks only" for it to be meaningful in any way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read the thread. You are fighting a straw man. No one here is talking about GL only rushes.
The issue is that GL's are spamable non-skilled weapons capable of destroying anything trying to melee Exo's. Aliens have virtually no-non melee weapons. Therefore, grande launchers possess the ability to completely negate any sort of action against an Exo push.
As far as aliens needing more options, I agree. Aliens are missing all of their abilities that made them competitive in NS1:
<ol type='1'><li>Leap is terrible now</li><li>web</li><li>focus</li><li>acid rocket</li><li>adrenaline is terrible</li><li>devour</li><li>xenocide is worthless</li><li>babblers</li><li>Healing spray is nerfed</li></ol>
The most fun in NS1 was using leap to launch into jet packing marines like a rocket. That's how you took down jetpackers. READY AIM FIRE! I miss those times. Now, the aliens have no counter to jet packs, no ranged damage, and no way to deal with grenade launchers. Whips pretty much shut down grenades primary purpose, as an anti-structure siege weapon, so now we have spamable area denial super weapons. It makes no sense.
PS: I forgot to add that marine resource retention is infinitely better. Not only can they remain on 3/3 upgrades with one CC, but they can regain lost weapons. If aliens lose mid game fades they might as well F4.
And by very good I mean extremely good. In the chaos of battle and the loud bites, it is hard to hear the grenades, they're very hard to see, and they're extremely volatile (if I'm not mistaken, one grenade will kill a carapaced skulk). I feel it is safe to say that in the case of direct exo engagements, skulks are considered to be a good option. But exos covered by a GL or two are incredibly hard to deal with for aliens.
Currently, I find aliens defeating the exo/gl combination by backdooring a base, forcing a beacon, and engaging the grenade launchers and exos separately. This feels like the only option in many circumstances.
That's not to say the grenade launcher shouldn't be good, they're expensive and high on the tech tree. But they're not siege weapons as I see it. With whips, it makes sense that they're not. Are there any plans to add some sort of hud icon to make it easier for aliens to avoid them?
Lastly, a loose analog and perhaps a poor comparison to the grenade launcher would be xenocide. Xenocide won't one-shot a 3/3 marine and additionally it costs a life to use. What do you guys think about the state of the grenade launcher?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's the original post, short of him saying used to defend exos which is the only thing any of you are really latching onto, it's a stupid argument. He's complaining cause GL's can kill eggs... Well holy crap so does a flame thrower. It's good at blowing up a bunch of dumb skulks on a power node or res tower, yea that makes perfect sense.
If war fighting was up to all of you apparently we'd still be in open engagements standing in fields in ranks shooting and hoping for the best. It's called improvisation, you don't like the way it's being used because it requires a team effort to do, and so it required a team effort to counter. If your team doesn't work together yea that's going to happen, but guess what this is a TEAM based game not an individual 1 on 1 game. If you're always rushing alone, you're going to die, the best players typically stick with their team.
The issue is that GL's are spamable non-skilled weapons capable of destroying anything trying to melee Exo's. Aliens have virtually no-non melee weapons. Therefore, grande launchers possess the ability to completely negate any sort of action against an Exo push.
As far as aliens needing more options, I agree. Aliens are missing all of their abilities that made them competitive in NS1:
<ol type='1'><li>Leap is terrible now</li><li>web</li><li>focus</li><li>acid rocket</li><li>adrenaline is terrible</li><li>devour</li><li>xenocide is worthless</li><li>babblers</li><li>Healing spray is nerfed</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree.
It can be really boring playing alien; the feeling of futility, having nothing effective to use, fighting marines who have a solution to everything, more mobility, greater range, useful structures and gadgets. Marines even have their own gorge in the form of the MAC - which can actually build structures!
I think eventually Charlie will have to let the gorge build key structures or else do away with the gorge altogether. It's a slow, cumbersome class that has one very very boring & slow heal ability, and bile bomb, which you have to wait ages for and requires no skill. The gorge's structures have been nerfed so heavily they're only a minor help at the earliest stages of rounds. For helping the team as a gorge the game penalises you, taking away your res for using the level 1 abilities. Usually my teammates will run past me straight for the hive and crags because they know the gorges is a poor healing class.
UWE should put the focus more on skulks and gorges. These are the classes people play for whole rounds. They shouldn't be the most broken ones!
Watching the trailer for NS2: Classic mod brought a tear to my eye, seeing the gorge drop crags on walls and ceiling :'(
It can be really boring playing alien; the feeling of futility, having nothing effective to use, fighting marines who have a solution to everything, more mobility, greater range, useful structures and gadgets. Marines even have their own gorge in the form of the MAC - which can actually build structures!
I think eventually Charlie will have to let the gorge build key structures or else do away with the gorge altogether.
Watching the trailer for NS2: Classic mod brought a tear to my eye, seeing the gorge drop crags on walls and ceiling :'(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is just another example of why I believe gorges should get spinfusors.