Grenade Launcher feels primarily like an anti-skulk weapon
Shnagenburg
Join Date: 2005-07-04 Member: 55235Members
Join Date: 2005-07-04 Member: 55235Members
Is this its intended use? I feel like its role as a siege weapon (shooting around corners, applying pressure to fortifications) is rare, but more often it is used to cover exos from skulks and wiping out fields of spawn eggs. Additionally, it is very good at clearing marine buildings and power nodes being focused down by a pack of aliens.
And by very good I mean extremely good. In the chaos of battle and the loud bites, it is hard to hear the grenades, they're very hard to see, and they're extremely volatile (if I'm not mistaken, one grenade will kill a carapaced skulk). I feel it is safe to say that in the case of direct exo engagements, skulks are considered to be a good option. But exos covered by a GL or two are incredibly hard to deal with for aliens.
Currently, I find aliens defeating the exo/gl combination by backdooring a base, forcing a beacon, and engaging the grenade launchers and exos separately. This feels like the only option in many circumstances.
That's not to say the grenade launcher shouldn't be good, they're expensive and high on the tech tree. But they're not siege weapons as I see it. With whips, it makes sense that they're not. Are there any plans to add some sort of hud icon to make it easier for aliens to avoid them?
Lastly, a loose analog and perhaps a poor comparison to the grenade launcher would be xenocide. Xenocide won't one-shot a 3/3 marine and additionally it costs a life to use. What do you guys think about the state of the grenade launcher?
And by very good I mean extremely good. In the chaos of battle and the loud bites, it is hard to hear the grenades, they're very hard to see, and they're extremely volatile (if I'm not mistaken, one grenade will kill a carapaced skulk). I feel it is safe to say that in the case of direct exo engagements, skulks are considered to be a good option. But exos covered by a GL or two are incredibly hard to deal with for aliens.
Currently, I find aliens defeating the exo/gl combination by backdooring a base, forcing a beacon, and engaging the grenade launchers and exos separately. This feels like the only option in many circumstances.
That's not to say the grenade launcher shouldn't be good, they're expensive and high on the tech tree. But they're not siege weapons as I see it. With whips, it makes sense that they're not. Are there any plans to add some sort of hud icon to make it easier for aliens to avoid them?
Lastly, a loose analog and perhaps a poor comparison to the grenade launcher would be xenocide. Xenocide won't one-shot a 3/3 marine and additionally it costs a life to use. What do you guys think about the state of the grenade launcher?
Comments
Late game feels binary. The aliens either successfully force a beacon, and manage to take back some map presence or devour unguarded Exo's, or Aliens just get murdered. If you pull off the beacon, great now you have a chance, if not, prepare to die. Maybe my understanding of the late game just isn't caught up, and there are different meta strategies I don't know, but it feels very stagnant.
When a marine with a grenade launcher dies, the weapon can be retained and the resource isn't lost. If a Fade is lost, well... it's brutal. Losing a fade is such a horrible event. As an alien player you might only be able to afford 2 evolutions in an evenly balanced 20 minute game. I've recycled the same shotgun 4-5 times as a marine.
I don't know if nerfing the grenade launchers and Exo's is the way to go, rather I would like to see the aliens have more options.
Since skulks and fade's all need to be within melee range to damage the Exo but the grenades just explode right on the Exo fragging anyone in range, there's just no cost effective counter.
Maybe grenade launchers need to do friendly fire damage to Exo's? This is pretty draconian of a solution. I'm just trying to figure something out.
What? Haha that is so wrong, BB is wonderful against exos and probably the most annoying thing to go against as an exo is a good gorge with BB imo. xD Also I have killed numerous exos as gorge. The trick to not dying immediately as a gorge against an exo is to only engage when you have your buddies to tank the damage. Then they'll melt before your eyes.
I understand bile bomb is supposed to be the solution, but in my experience thus far it's not very effective. Most gorges will melt before the Exo's. Sure, maybe they will get a few hits in, but then the gorges will perish, the exos will be repaired, and the grenade launcher will clear every other class of alien in the game. Exos in isolation are not the problem here. Even an Exo repair train doesn't bother me. Even a super Exo repair train supported by Macs don't bother me. It's only when you combine this already insanely powerful composition with a grenade launcher that I don't believe the aliens possess an equivalent.
However, I'm not trying to do that, so there.
Either that or implement friendly fire.
Therefore you have to be accurate, but can bounce grenades effectively.
TF2 has the grenade physics down to a T.
Since I started paying attention to the Grenades I have noticed it bounce off of corners of walls from half a meter away, corners of buildings when it never touches them, and especially off of other marines even when the grenade doesn't touch them.
I dunno the GL's do seem a bit over powered currently toward killing skulks... GL rush before aliens reach higher lifeforms almost always end in the alien team getting murdered.
I was initially against any type of FF on GL's but they are getting used too much as a suppression weapon, which is in direct contradiction to there nature. Shooting grenades at your friends feet is not healthy.
I suggested it before but I will suggest it again, I think there needs to be thorns dmg implemented on GL's. 25% of dmg dealt to teammates gets redirected to the user killing them if they keep attacking there friends. Does no dmg to allies only the person shooting the grenades. It would effectivly quell GL's being used as suppression fire around other marines feet.
Hmm... I'm just brainstorming here, but maybe a change to how Alien Vision works could help this specific point.
When Alien Vision is on, things basically become color coded. What if we could take this a step further and add adaptive color coding? Normally, marines, exos, their buildings, and their weapons all show up on screen as the same color. What if there were additional colors added to the vision mode that were based on threat level?
Example: A marine always shows up orange, but the color of their weapon would be different depending on what they currently had equipped.
This could help aliens pinpoint and focus on GL or Flame marines. Adding an actual highlight/notification (only in Alien Vision) to grenades already in the air could also help a bit with avoiding the spam and finding a flank on the GL user.
Yes, GL is a very effective anti-skulk weapon, mainly if the skulk isn't trying to kill marine wielding the GL. As you say, GL covering Exo is really problematic for aliens. You've also identified the most reliable way of dealing with the problem - separating the exos from the supporting marines. At some level there, the game rewards the team with better co-ordination, timing and discipline. The side most able to identify and react to these situations will gain the upper hand.
Still, I think GL spam really annoys a lot of experienced players because they will die to lesser skilled players. And it annoys newbie players because it can heavily effect their KDR. KDR is something newbies worry about because they don't have many other ways of knowing whether they're being effective or not.
For those reasons, I hope Flayra is not satisfied with the current implementation of the GL and intends to change it. But who knows? It has been like this for quite a while and I don't remember seeing any dev posts on the issue.
I'd have to say this problem became exaggerated after the GL was made in to a separate weapon and possibly the alien wave spawning system has heightened the need for marines to be able to quickly and reliably kill off skulks. The 'quickly' aspect deals with minimising attritional damage dealt by skulks. The 'reliably' aspect deals with hit prediction, registration, pings and player aim.
The gorge bile-boming an exo is much like the GL situation: it's most effective when used in a support role. As you say, it's suicide for a gorge to try a solo attack on an exo, but supporting a skulk or a fade is quite effective. The key is for the gorge to have an escape plan and some map geometry/cover for when the skulk dies. The gorge can only safely attack when there is a more imminent thread to the Exo, so it requires some clever play.
I wouldn't worry about this too much in the short term because it's wasted effort. The whole team is focused on shipping 1.0 which is all about bug-fixing, polish and performance. We will most likely have to wait until December before we can get back to structural issues like this. I haven't been posting on the forums much lately for exactly this reason.
Perhaps a blue light instead of an explosion saying the grenade has been disarmed?
As far as attacking the hive, if the blast radius was reduced, theoretically the grenades could be fired at the top of the hive and still be far enough away to detonate properly even with allies at the bottom axeing the hive a question.
I think the op is mainly referring to the use of Gl's as a suppression weapon. Where 1-2 GL's will stand behind an EXO/Welder and spam grenades at there feet essentially making them invincible. While the Exo/welder form a wall that prevents the GL from being attacked as well.
Grenades only do damage to buildings and the armor of lifeforms.
They can be rebranded as shaped charge armor piercing grendes, with a sprinkle of nanites for good measure.
In that case go around or wait til 4 grenades go off and run in. Chances are if you have a group of exos with a group of people welding and GL'ing behind them it's already GG.
We're talking about a very specific build and unit composition. With Exo suits now in the game the GL's are insane and keeping them alive.
Yes you're talking about a VERY specific "game is already over" type of build. Next you're going to say having gorges healing onos and bilebombing, while a lerk uses spores, is OP. There is a counter to it, and it involves not going straight for the exos. If you have lerks you can bile bomb them, a fade can vortex either the gl's or the exos, or you can just all go around as a team and wipe out the gl's. Hell you could even force them to beacon and that leaves the exo's completely unsupported which is usually death for them.
This topic is "Grenade Launcher feels primarily like an anti-skulk weapon" not "This strategy is bull###### cause we can't beat it". Honestly if your team is consisting of all skulks, and you're trying to kill a group of marines that have exos and gls you're probably going to lose. Or you will at least die A LOT.
<!--quoteo(post=1985764:date=Oct 1 2012, 08:02 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Oct 1 2012, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1985764"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes you're talking about a VERY specific "game is already over" type of build. Next you're going to say having gorges healing onos and bilebombing, while a lerk uses spores, is OP. There is a counter to it, and it involves not going straight for the exos. If you have lerks you can bile bomb them, a fade can vortex either the gl's or the exos, or you can just all go around as a team and wipe out the gl's. Hell you could even force them to beacon and that leaves the exo's completely unsupported which is usually death for them.
This topic is "Grenade Launcher feels primarily like an anti-skulk weapon" not "This strategy is bull###### cause we can't beat it". Honestly if your team is consisting of all skulks, and you're trying to kill a group of marines that have exos and gls you're probably going to lose. Or you will at least die A LOT.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So 50 res and 35 res is now a 'game is already over' scenario? Let me get a fade and a lerk and... oh wait
protip! %D
gls are sop versatile, sadly i dont think even half the playerbase know how to use them, or even that they can ricochet off of things...
they deliver massive explosive damage wherever they explode, only thing "wrong" with it is that the blast radius is a TAD high but tolerable..
Either that or implement friendly fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've suggested that since ... forever. Basically, grenades and mines cut the size of their own explosion so as not to damage any friendly players. So grenades would do very little damage if you fire them at the feet of other marines or exos.
Friendly fire is ... problematic, to say the least :-/
So 50 res and 35 res is now a 'game is already over' scenario? Let me get a fade and a lerk and... oh wait<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's supposed to be a support weapon, not a buildings only weapon. And with your second point you're complaining that it's too good against buildings now? First off you're probably not gonna kill every player/egg/cyst/upgrade/crag in a hive with 4 grenades. It's just not feasible. And if you do you'll need support because it's not that hard to kill a marine with a GL even if they have a JP. And again it's a LONG reload time, you can't "lock down" a hive with one GL, eventually someone will spawn while you're reloading or attacking the hive.
I don't really know what you're trying to say about 50 and 35 res. I'm saying that if you have a couple Exosuits with a bunch of marines behind them, whether they have grenades, shotguns, or lmgs and your entire attack force is consisting of skulks, as everyone seems to be implying, it's game over.
Who said they are only supposed to be used for killing buildings? Is that written somewhere or is that just something you assumed? Cause I'll be honest with you, the military uses grenade launchers for more than one purpose and none of them involve destroying buildings. YOU are the only classifying them, so in YOUR mind go ahead and reclassify it so that YOU can learn to use them correctly also.
Honestly this is so stupid, how many people have never gotten killed as a skulk by grenades? I know I have. I learned something though, don't run into explosions.