I like JP's as they are just now. I take it people that are moaning forget that JP's were a nightmare to deal with before they changed them a couple of patches ago. Truth is that Jp's before they got fixed didn't have a counter as gorge didn't and still don't have web and you were really gd if you could kill them in high celing area like gen or warehouse atrium oh wait most of the tech points :P not to mention that it doesn't matter how heavy your gun is you fly the same making GL JP crazy gd. Also I was in Cargo the other day (patch 220) as 4 skulks and a lerk tried to kill 1 JP with a shotgun and couldn't do it for 1 min 30 seconds or something like that because the guy was flying backwords and just shotgunning anything that came near him ok so he didn't get the hive as he was spending all his time shooting the ailens but its beside the point all he had to do was hit the ground ever couple of secs and he was sorted because of the med pack spam his comm was giving him :P . K that kind of got away from me there but to sum up they needed fixed they were op as **** before they got patched and anyway that thinks otherwise is kidden them self on
<!--quoteo(post=1984632:date=Sep 29 2012, 10:53 AM:name=arnyboy87)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (arnyboy87 @ Sep 29 2012, 10:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1984632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like JP's as they are just now. I take it people that are moaning forget that JP's were a nightmare to deal with before they changed them a couple of patches ago. Truth is that Jp's before they got fixed didn't have a counter as gorge didn't and still don't have web and you were really gd if you could kill them in high celing area like gen or warehouse atrium oh wait most of the tech points :P not to mention that it doesn't matter how heavy your gun is you fly the same making GL JP crazy gd. Also I was in Cargo the other day (patch 220) as 4 skulks and a lerk tried to kill 1 JP with a shotgun and couldn't do it for 1 min 30 seconds or something like that because the guy was flying backwords and just shotgunning anything that came near him ok so he didn't get the hive as he was spending all his time shooting the ailens but its beside the point all he had to do was hit the ground ever couple of secs and he was sorted because of the med pack spam his comm was giving him :P . K that kind of got away from me there but to sum up they needed fixed they were op as **** before they got patched and anyway that thinks otherwise is kidden them self on<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cute video, but it appears you were jetpacking against hive 1 aliens without leap or higher lifeforms. So, I hope that video isn't trying to prove that jetpacks are fine how they are.
I won't comment on the skill level of the aliens either....
Garfu will you comment on your opinion of the current jetpack vs previous builds / NS1?
I'd like to see more competitive and skilled players and their opinions on this current iteration as I feel it is quite horrendous.
It seems to me that anyone who likes the jetpack right now is stuck in COD land where everything is a perk, and only gains you slight advantages in combat.
The jetpack isn't just used to improve combat. It's main use and metagame use is mobility and being able to get places in the map without the need for other tech (Phase gates). Right now the jetpack is solely used for combat since it runs out of fuel every 3 seconds and doesn't even make you move that much faster. Compared to NS1 these jetpacks aren't even jetpacks... just a gimmick added in for "fun".
In NS1 jetpacks were still 10 res... so nothing has changed there, but you need 2 CC's, a protolab, and then the upgrade to get them. So, whoever said I want jetpack to be a 10 res instant win is a complete.... well lets just stop there... people fail to see the big picture and the RTS element of this game. All people see is the COD, leisure side where no thought process is necessary. Jetpacks aren't just a free 10 res upgrade you get from candy land. You have to work hard and do good to get them, and they SHOULD be stupid powerful and useful. Right now its like getting a cute little COD perk that helps you a little in combat.
Sure there are situations where you are in a large room against hive 1 aliens without leap or fades... of course the jetpack is going to feel overpowered to the aliens... cause they likely were getting spanked all game anyway. I don't mean to take it to this level but most of the people who think jetpack is fine how it is are simply bad or haven't played NS long enough. That is my opinion, but one I find to be accurate. If you're getting rocked by jetpackers there IS A REASON FOR IT. Too many kids load up the game get into a server where marines are dominating and get jetpacks... then they get dominated even harder and cry that jetpacks are too strong... when in reality their team did terrible and had no upgrades, hives, or lifeforms. Bad.
The jetpack should allow you to move very quickly across the map and you shouldn't run out of fuel NEARLY as fast as you do. I would argue that the jetpack needs 50% more fuel and added speed and air control. I feel like the devs ruined the jetpacks to force people to use exo's for a while... thats just my theory because they weren't ever OP. The same happened with the shift hive... everyone outraged and finally it got fixed and balanced how it should be. The same is gonna have to happen for exo's / jetpacks I feel. Heavy armor (exos) should be useful as a support role, since they can take so much damage, but the jetpack should be the more strategic and combat oriented class. Right now it's not the case... exos have replaced the role of the jetpack and jetpacks have now become a perk... just like walljump was ruined to make way for celerity.
If they are destroying jetpacks by making it so you can only use them "when you really need them" then the jetpack is utterly horrendous compared to NS1, and previous builds. You should be able to use it all the time as an added mobility upgrade. It shouldn't be a last ditch thing to help save you 3 seconds of time... that is a perk... not an upgrade. I've said it 1000 times. Getting the jetpack should feel like a passive upgrade like armor and weapons. You should always be able to use it... it shouldn't be hardcore limited like it is now.
It's just kindergarten status again... trying to level the combat and ignoring the metagame once again.
I think JPs are powerful enough as they are. If you disagree, fine, but stop blanket-slandering everyone who doesn't feel the same way you do. It's possible for people to hold different opinions from yours without being "stuck in COD land", ADHD.
Being always able to use jetpacks will absolutely destroy the game. More or less the only way to deal with a good jetpacker now is good fades (preferably more than 1) and really good skulks.
Considering JP+Shotgun costs 30 and a fade 50, I'd say aliens need considerable buffs to ranged attacks if jetpacks are going to be made even more available than they are now.
I admit I may be coming across a bit harsh towards other peoples opinions but honestly, anyone who played NS1 extensively will see how every underlying concept from that game applies to this one.
Honestly though, look at NS1 jetpack then look at this one. NS1 JP and NS2 are nothing alike... and jetpacks were a huge deal in NS1... and I would argue are even more important in NS2... so making them worse is completely backwards. The only reason to change them is to change the game to something that doesn't resemble NS... which is why I am throwing the COD card.
It feels like people want this game to be different and to take the strategy aspect out. I mean look at the game already... you are pretty much forced to go a certain route now (2 CC's... really?) and it funnels the gameplay into a more easy to understand game... but at the cost of depth and creative play.
Basically the devs are making this into an ever more predictable game... which in turn makes the game easier to learn for people. Everything is being limited.. rule bound.. and it's plain to see. NS2 is just NS1 with training wheels now... I still love both games but would really wish the underlying formula could be left unchanged. Making the jetpacks only useful for combat encounters changes the ENTIRE game... dramatically I might add. You won't be seeing as much stealth missions, sneaky phase gates, meta game switches, and everything that made NS such a unique and awesome game. This nerf to jetpacks is spoonfeeding, and turns this game into easymode... where there are no counters or meta switches... it makes the game play monotonous, albeit easier to balance for casual.
People don't want to think... they just want to shoot shiny things, and be able to feel like rambo. I feel like the devs are catering to that crowd much much more than they did in NS1. This is just another example of them catering to the casual... and I for one want to see it changed back... so we can have the classic gameplay back.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->"Being always able to use jetpacks will absolutely destroy the game. More or less the only way to deal with a good jetpacker now is good fades (preferably more than 1) and really good skulks.
Considering JP+Shotgun costs 30 and a fade 50, I'd say aliens need considerable buffs to ranged attacks if jetpacks are going to be made even more available than they are now. "<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Consider this, friend... if you know that a player has to take steps and follow a path to get jetpacks, and you also know how powerful they are... then how does that effect the gameplay for aliens? Well for one... it makes it so not everyone can go off and play like a COD rambo... and you have to work as a team to prevent the marines from getting their powerful tech. This is what makes NS. It's knowing the metagame and doing something about it. It's not about LETTING marines get jetpacks and then complaining when it happens. You know how to stop jetpacks... you kill RT's and prevent the 2nd CC. That is the name of the game. Fades are still much more powerful than a jetpack shotgun marine... which is why they are 50 res and a fade vs jetpack... the fade should always win in theory since it can run away and heal unlike the marine who can only receive medpacks or nano at the cost of team res (Also relying on competent comm which is seldom seen). If they get jetpacks and your team has 2 hives and fades and etc... jetpacks should be able to turn the tide of the battle significantly. No complaining please.
<!--quoteo(post=1984790:date=Sep 29 2012, 10:54 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 29 2012, 10:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1984790"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I admit I may be coming across a bit harsh towards other peoples opinions but honestly, anyone who played NS1 extensively will see how every underlying concept from that game applies to this one.
Honestly though, look at NS1 jetpack then look at this one. NS1 JP and NS2 are nothing alike... and jetpacks were a huge deal in NS1... and I would argue are even more important in NS2... so making them worse is completely backwards. The only reason to change them is to change the game to something that doesn't resemble NS... which is why I am throwing the COD card. People don't want to think... they just want to shoot shiny things, and be able to feel like rambo. I feel like the devs are catering to that crowd much much more than they did in NS1. This is just another example of them catering to the casual... and I for one want to see it changed back... so we can have the classic gameplay back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yet you want the fly forever easy mode jetpacks. If jetpacks are to be buffed, they need to cost 15 or more.
<!--quoteo(post=1984790:date=Sep 29 2012, 10:54 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 29 2012, 10:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1984790"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It feels like people want this game to be different and to take the strategy aspect out. I mean look at the game already... you are pretty much forced to go a certain route now (2 CC's... really?) and it funnels the gameplay into a more easy to understand game... but at the cost of depth and creative play.
Basically the devs are making this into an ever more predictable game... which in turn makes the game easier to learn for people. Everything is being limited.. rule bound.. and it's plain to see. NS2 is just NS1 with training wheels now... I still love both games but would really wish the underlying formula could be left unchanged. Making the jetpacks only useful for combat encounters changes the ENTIRE game... dramatically I might add. You won't be seeing as much stealth missions, sneaky phase gates, meta game switches, and everything that made NS such a unique and awesome game. This nerf to jetpacks is spoonfeeding, and turns this game into easymode... where there are no counters or meta switches... it makes the game play monotonous, albeit easier to balance for casual.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most NS1 games were about the same mad dash for 2 hives for the aliens with MC first and DC second while the marines were trying to get res and lockdown hive locations. The fact that pres exists, the fact that lifeforms are no longer tied to the numbers of hives does give NS2 more potential for variety after other things get tweaked.
You missed my entire point. This game is nearly identical to NS1... and if you can't see that then you didn't play it enough. So, the game is already so much like NS1 that changing the formula is only hurting the gameplay. Having good jetpacks was essential in NS1, but it still didn't give your team an instant win. In NS2 getting jetpacks is miniscule and in turn the game play is less deep and less rewarding. I could care less if NS2 was more different than NS1 as long as the gameplay was improved from it and not degraded.
I'm a hardcore NS fanboy and I love both games and I embrace most of the changes in NS2, aside from forcing 2nd CC and making exo's / jp how they are... it seems to work somewhat but in a more casual COD way. What's the point of making the game have an RTS element if its only to be ignored / you have no selection of viable choices to make? I can answer... this game isn't really an RTS... there is very little strategy at all that the commanders can do. It's all up to the FPS players in this game and how much damage they can deal. The comms just act as a fast acting XP system like COD. Instead of playing 20 rounds to unlock a new gun like in COD... a comm just follows a predictable path and unlocks things throughout the game. The comm basically is just doing the ###### work while everyone else plays COD. There is no strategy... you have to get a 2nd CC, and you have to do this and this... it's just the games progression and how it was designed. Theres only 1 strat really which is to prevent 2nd hive or CC.. other than that its all just gunplay. It still mimmicks NS1 very closely but it just takes the viable path from NS1 and makes it mandatory, and easy to understand. There was no hand holding in ns1 which told marines to lock out hive positions... now you are just forced to get a 2nd cc. Which is fine, but you are just making COD 8 with aliens. You could honestly have AI commanders in this game because of how standard it's becoming.
Giving jetpacks freedom allows for much more complex and interesting strategy... making them really powerful also changes the gameplay and makes things have a MUCH higher risk / reward. Right now NS2 lets you get away with making all kinds of stupid mistakes.. because its too forgiving. Thats why jetpacks need to be more powerful to make people realize they need to work as a team and play the actual game and not stare at shiny things and play casual. Those are the kind of people who will ruin this game and its depth because they are the ones who will make sales and play if they get what they want. I want NS, not some other game...
After playing the new build... just got my first chance to tonight... I have to say either I am experiencing a placebo effect, or the jetpacks have gotten a speed buff...
They feel slightly much more acceptable now... haha.
Comments
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRyNZM69h-Q&feature=player_detailpage#t=171s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRyNZM69h-Q...tailpage#t=171s</a>
I won't comment on the skill level of the aliens either....
Garfu will you comment on your opinion of the current jetpack vs previous builds / NS1?
I'd like to see more competitive and skilled players and their opinions on this current iteration as I feel it is quite horrendous.
It seems to me that anyone who likes the jetpack right now is stuck in COD land where everything is a perk, and only gains you slight advantages in combat.
The jetpack isn't just used to improve combat. It's main use and metagame use is mobility and being able to get places in the map without the need for other tech (Phase gates). Right now the jetpack is solely used for combat since it runs out of fuel every 3 seconds and doesn't even make you move that much faster. Compared to NS1 these jetpacks aren't even jetpacks... just a gimmick added in for "fun".
In NS1 jetpacks were still 10 res... so nothing has changed there, but you need 2 CC's, a protolab, and then the upgrade to get them. So, whoever said I want jetpack to be a 10 res instant win is a complete.... well lets just stop there... people fail to see the big picture and the RTS element of this game. All people see is the COD, leisure side where no thought process is necessary. Jetpacks aren't just a free 10 res upgrade you get from candy land. You have to work hard and do good to get them, and they SHOULD be stupid powerful and useful. Right now its like getting a cute little COD perk that helps you a little in combat.
Sure there are situations where you are in a large room against hive 1 aliens without leap or fades... of course the jetpack is going to feel overpowered to the aliens... cause they likely were getting spanked all game anyway. I don't mean to take it to this level but most of the people who think jetpack is fine how it is are simply bad or haven't played NS long enough. That is my opinion, but one I find to be accurate. If you're getting rocked by jetpackers there IS A REASON FOR IT. Too many kids load up the game get into a server where marines are dominating and get jetpacks... then they get dominated even harder and cry that jetpacks are too strong... when in reality their team did terrible and had no upgrades, hives, or lifeforms. Bad.
The jetpack should allow you to move very quickly across the map and you shouldn't run out of fuel NEARLY as fast as you do. I would argue that the jetpack needs 50% more fuel and added speed and air control. I feel like the devs ruined the jetpacks to force people to use exo's for a while... thats just my theory because they weren't ever OP. The same happened with the shift hive... everyone outraged and finally it got fixed and balanced how it should be. The same is gonna have to happen for exo's / jetpacks I feel. Heavy armor (exos) should be useful as a support role, since they can take so much damage, but the jetpack should be the more strategic and combat oriented class. Right now it's not the case... exos have replaced the role of the jetpack and jetpacks have now become a perk... just like walljump was ruined to make way for celerity.
If they are destroying jetpacks by making it so you can only use them "when you really need them" then the jetpack is utterly horrendous compared to NS1, and previous builds. You should be able to use it all the time as an added mobility upgrade. It shouldn't be a last ditch thing to help save you 3 seconds of time... that is a perk... not an upgrade. I've said it 1000 times. Getting the jetpack should feel like a passive upgrade like armor and weapons. You should always be able to use it... it shouldn't be hardcore limited like it is now.
It's just kindergarten status again... trying to level the combat and ignoring the metagame once again.
Considering JP+Shotgun costs 30 and a fade 50, I'd say aliens need considerable buffs to ranged attacks if jetpacks are going to be made even more available than they are now.
Honestly though, look at NS1 jetpack then look at this one. NS1 JP and NS2 are nothing alike... and jetpacks were a huge deal in NS1... and I would argue are even more important in NS2... so making them worse is completely backwards. The only reason to change them is to change the game to something that doesn't resemble NS... which is why I am throwing the COD card.
It feels like people want this game to be different and to take the strategy aspect out. I mean look at the game already... you are pretty much forced to go a certain route now (2 CC's... really?) and it funnels the gameplay into a more easy to understand game... but at the cost of depth and creative play.
Basically the devs are making this into an ever more predictable game... which in turn makes the game easier to learn for people. Everything is being limited.. rule bound.. and it's plain to see. NS2 is just NS1 with training wheels now... I still love both games but would really wish the underlying formula could be left unchanged. Making the jetpacks only useful for combat encounters changes the ENTIRE game... dramatically I might add. You won't be seeing as much stealth missions, sneaky phase gates, meta game switches, and everything that made NS such a unique and awesome game. This nerf to jetpacks is spoonfeeding, and turns this game into easymode... where there are no counters or meta switches... it makes the game play monotonous, albeit easier to balance for casual.
People don't want to think... they just want to shoot shiny things, and be able to feel like rambo. I feel like the devs are catering to that crowd much much more than they did in NS1. This is just another example of them catering to the casual... and I for one want to see it changed back... so we can have the classic gameplay back.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->"Being always able to use jetpacks will absolutely destroy the game. More or less the only way to deal with a good jetpacker now is good fades (preferably more than 1) and really good skulks.
Considering JP+Shotgun costs 30 and a fade 50, I'd say aliens need considerable buffs to ranged attacks if jetpacks are going to be made even more available than they are now. "<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Consider this, friend... if you know that a player has to take steps and follow a path to get jetpacks, and you also know how powerful they are... then how does that effect the gameplay for aliens? Well for one... it makes it so not everyone can go off and play like a COD rambo... and you have to work as a team to prevent the marines from getting their powerful tech. This is what makes NS. It's knowing the metagame and doing something about it. It's not about LETTING marines get jetpacks and then complaining when it happens. You know how to stop jetpacks... you kill RT's and prevent the 2nd CC. That is the name of the game. Fades are still much more powerful than a jetpack shotgun marine... which is why they are 50 res and a fade vs jetpack... the fade should always win in theory since it can run away and heal unlike the marine who can only receive medpacks or nano at the cost of team res (Also relying on competent comm which is seldom seen). If they get jetpacks and your team has 2 hives and fades and etc... jetpacks should be able to turn the tide of the battle significantly. No complaining please.
And stop complaining that it isn't like NS1 enough, this game isn't NS1.
Honestly though, look at NS1 jetpack then look at this one. NS1 JP and NS2 are nothing alike... and jetpacks were a huge deal in NS1... and I would argue are even more important in NS2... so making them worse is completely backwards. The only reason to change them is to change the game to something that doesn't resemble NS... which is why I am throwing the COD card.
People don't want to think... they just want to shoot shiny things, and be able to feel like rambo. I feel like the devs are catering to that crowd much much more than they did in NS1. This is just another example of them catering to the casual... and I for one want to see it changed back... so we can have the classic gameplay back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yet you want the fly forever easy mode jetpacks.
If jetpacks are to be buffed, they need to cost 15 or more.
<!--quoteo(post=1984790:date=Sep 29 2012, 10:54 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 29 2012, 10:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1984790"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It feels like people want this game to be different and to take the strategy aspect out. I mean look at the game already... you are pretty much forced to go a certain route now (2 CC's... really?) and it funnels the gameplay into a more easy to understand game... but at the cost of depth and creative play.
Basically the devs are making this into an ever more predictable game... which in turn makes the game easier to learn for people. Everything is being limited.. rule bound.. and it's plain to see. NS2 is just NS1 with training wheels now... I still love both games but would really wish the underlying formula could be left unchanged. Making the jetpacks only useful for combat encounters changes the ENTIRE game... dramatically I might add. You won't be seeing as much stealth missions, sneaky phase gates, meta game switches, and everything that made NS such a unique and awesome game. This nerf to jetpacks is spoonfeeding, and turns this game into easymode... where there are no counters or meta switches... it makes the game play monotonous, albeit easier to balance for casual.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most NS1 games were about the same mad dash for 2 hives for the aliens with MC first and DC second while the marines were trying to get res and lockdown hive locations.
The fact that pres exists, the fact that lifeforms are no longer tied to the numbers of hives does give NS2 more potential for variety after other things get tweaked.
I'm a hardcore NS fanboy and I love both games and I embrace most of the changes in NS2, aside from forcing 2nd CC and making exo's / jp how they are... it seems to work somewhat but in a more casual COD way. What's the point of making the game have an RTS element if its only to be ignored / you have no selection of viable choices to make? I can answer... this game isn't really an RTS... there is very little strategy at all that the commanders can do. It's all up to the FPS players in this game and how much damage they can deal. The comms just act as a fast acting XP system like COD. Instead of playing 20 rounds to unlock a new gun like in COD... a comm just follows a predictable path and unlocks things throughout the game. The comm basically is just doing the ###### work while everyone else plays COD. There is no strategy... you have to get a 2nd CC, and you have to do this and this... it's just the games progression and how it was designed. Theres only 1 strat really which is to prevent 2nd hive or CC.. other than that its all just gunplay. It still mimmicks NS1 very closely but it just takes the viable path from NS1 and makes it mandatory, and easy to understand. There was no hand holding in ns1 which told marines to lock out hive positions... now you are just forced to get a 2nd cc. Which is fine, but you are just making COD 8 with aliens. You could honestly have AI commanders in this game because of how standard it's becoming.
Giving jetpacks freedom allows for much more complex and interesting strategy... making them really powerful also changes the gameplay and makes things have a MUCH higher risk / reward. Right now NS2 lets you get away with making all kinds of stupid mistakes.. because its too forgiving. Thats why jetpacks need to be more powerful to make people realize they need to work as a team and play the actual game and not stare at shiny things and play casual. Those are the kind of people who will ruin this game and its depth because they are the ones who will make sales and play if they get what they want. I want NS, not some other game...
It will be noticeable once the game starts to perform at a reasonable speed, as everything can be painfully slow as the netcode is bad.
They feel slightly much more acceptable now... haha.