Jetpacks too nerfed
.ADHd
Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Only qualm with game currently</div>By the time your head hits the ceiling you have already used a quarter tank of fuel (And thats in a room with a low ceiling). The acceleration amount is laughable now...
You used to be able to reliably get to another place on the map, now jetpacks have been turned into a gimmick used to evade at max 2 skulks before you get shredded from running out of fuel.
You can barely fly across the room now, and in ns1 and previous patches you could fly nearly across the entire map.
Jetpacks are too nerfed, there needs to be a nice middleground for the JP. Either we need a hell of a lot more acceleration or to have a tad more fuel added to them.
Other people surely have noticed how one build jetpacks were good and useful then all of a sudden they became abysmal when exo's came out.
Jetpack is a choice over exo... it shouldn't be nerfed to try to balance the exo's. Right now it feels like the devs are trying to pen us into baby stepping up to exo's from jetpacks. This is dumb. The jetpack should be just as useful and powerful as the exo since they serve 2 completely different purposes.
In my eyes the jetpack is an onos deterrent, useful for chasing down fades and lerks, and for getting around the map without the need for phase gates. All 3 of those aspects have effectively been made useless. You will run out of fuel before doing enough damage to an onos to make him back off now. JP vs onos is no longer a counter... its a gimmick again. It's impossible to chase down fades or other lifeforms due to low accel and low fuel. Walking (sprinting) is only slightly slower than using the jetpack now.
Why are they even in the game? Jetpack is just a cute little gimmick added to the game now... nobody ever researches them anyway and they are terrible now.
Jetpack was always one of the most important and useful techs in NS1 and NS2 until now. I can't even fly to the top of landing pad without running out of fuel, or engage enemies hiding under landing pad without risking my own life.
Jetpacks feel like a huge paperweight and aren't fun to use like they were before.
I used to be able to do stealth ninja missions and have the JP be a huge asset... now it more often than not gets me killed because of lack of maneuverability and fuel.
What are the jetpacks for now? I don't see any practical use for them other than a way to evade an alien for a moment before you make yourself vulnerable from empty fuel and put yourself on a predictable path (Due to horrendous JP physics). It's only useful for engaging maybe 2 skulks at a time which you can do as effectively on the ground via juking. Right now juking on the ground is more viable than using jetpacks to counter life forms. Jetpack is so slow and cumbersome, and it uses fuel so quickly, you make yourself an even more predictable target when you use the jetpack than if you just stayed on the ground.
I am dumbfounded that jetpacks were allowed to be nerfed this bad. I was told they would receive a "slight nerf" from Strayan via streams, but that's not what we got. We got a complete nerf which makes JP useless for what I see them intended for.
All you can do now is evade for 2 seconds and prolong a fight... there is barely any tactical advantage for that. Jetpacks were more useful as a means of transport and offensive way to counter higher lifeforms. Now they feel like a glorified quad jump mod from HL1. Honestly is just about as useful as a stupid amx mod that lets you quad jump... except quad jump actually lets you jump fast and get speed fast unlike JP.
Why make it so bad? They weren't ever that "OP". Fades and lerks and even skulks with leap could always kill a jetpacker. Why not just increase their cost if people think they are OP? You don't have to ruin the feel of gameplay and the fun of them... not to mention usefulness.
Playing NS1 jetpack for 5 mins then coming to NS2 is extremely painful... just saying.
You used to be able to reliably get to another place on the map, now jetpacks have been turned into a gimmick used to evade at max 2 skulks before you get shredded from running out of fuel.
You can barely fly across the room now, and in ns1 and previous patches you could fly nearly across the entire map.
Jetpacks are too nerfed, there needs to be a nice middleground for the JP. Either we need a hell of a lot more acceleration or to have a tad more fuel added to them.
Other people surely have noticed how one build jetpacks were good and useful then all of a sudden they became abysmal when exo's came out.
Jetpack is a choice over exo... it shouldn't be nerfed to try to balance the exo's. Right now it feels like the devs are trying to pen us into baby stepping up to exo's from jetpacks. This is dumb. The jetpack should be just as useful and powerful as the exo since they serve 2 completely different purposes.
In my eyes the jetpack is an onos deterrent, useful for chasing down fades and lerks, and for getting around the map without the need for phase gates. All 3 of those aspects have effectively been made useless. You will run out of fuel before doing enough damage to an onos to make him back off now. JP vs onos is no longer a counter... its a gimmick again. It's impossible to chase down fades or other lifeforms due to low accel and low fuel. Walking (sprinting) is only slightly slower than using the jetpack now.
Why are they even in the game? Jetpack is just a cute little gimmick added to the game now... nobody ever researches them anyway and they are terrible now.
Jetpack was always one of the most important and useful techs in NS1 and NS2 until now. I can't even fly to the top of landing pad without running out of fuel, or engage enemies hiding under landing pad without risking my own life.
Jetpacks feel like a huge paperweight and aren't fun to use like they were before.
I used to be able to do stealth ninja missions and have the JP be a huge asset... now it more often than not gets me killed because of lack of maneuverability and fuel.
What are the jetpacks for now? I don't see any practical use for them other than a way to evade an alien for a moment before you make yourself vulnerable from empty fuel and put yourself on a predictable path (Due to horrendous JP physics). It's only useful for engaging maybe 2 skulks at a time which you can do as effectively on the ground via juking. Right now juking on the ground is more viable than using jetpacks to counter life forms. Jetpack is so slow and cumbersome, and it uses fuel so quickly, you make yourself an even more predictable target when you use the jetpack than if you just stayed on the ground.
I am dumbfounded that jetpacks were allowed to be nerfed this bad. I was told they would receive a "slight nerf" from Strayan via streams, but that's not what we got. We got a complete nerf which makes JP useless for what I see them intended for.
All you can do now is evade for 2 seconds and prolong a fight... there is barely any tactical advantage for that. Jetpacks were more useful as a means of transport and offensive way to counter higher lifeforms. Now they feel like a glorified quad jump mod from HL1. Honestly is just about as useful as a stupid amx mod that lets you quad jump... except quad jump actually lets you jump fast and get speed fast unlike JP.
Why make it so bad? They weren't ever that "OP". Fades and lerks and even skulks with leap could always kill a jetpacker. Why not just increase their cost if people think they are OP? You don't have to ruin the feel of gameplay and the fun of them... not to mention usefulness.
Playing NS1 jetpack for 5 mins then coming to NS2 is extremely painful... just saying.
Comments
But I'd like to see you perform this since I am calling extreme BS on you. You can barely fly over crevice to flight before you run out of fuel... hardly half way across the map....
In fact... thats only 1 room or "area" come to think of it...
Yeah, it's really more of a jump pack than a true jet pack.
This is the way it should be. Jetpacks should not make you harder to kill, only make you more mobile. If you want to be harder to kill, get exos.
Jump packs are more fuel-efficient that jet packs. You can jet across Crevice if you want, and it can be a great trick to pull in combat, but it isn't and shouldn't be as good for distance travel as hopping.
Currently, for 10 res, i think the jp is pretty good, however the upgrades to the jp need to come back (improved fuel consumption or improved thrusters for more speed)
This would raise the overall cost of researching the older version of jps (or just a more deadly version) without needing to affect the Pres cost. (also, it owuld be good to have improvement researches for both exo and jp; exo has duals, jp has ??)
You cannot fly from atrium exit to flight without touching the ground... you have to hit the ground and recharge fuel... that's not a ###### jetpack.
There is no reason for this nerf at all. The jetpack should be able to STAY in the air for a long period of time... since thats the only thing really useful about them (Other than gaining more speed than running). You need to stay in the air in order to effectively fight an onos or fade... now everyone knows you have to hit the ground every 5 seconds to get fuel... which makes jetpack useless.
Imba... i can't disagree with you more... a lerk or fade should be required to take down that GL JP dude. A few skulks aren't a counter to jetpack... it's just as simple as that... if they were then what are jetpacks for?
Might as well add rollerblade instead of jetpack if all they are for is getting around marginally faster. Being in the air for 5 seconds is stupid and useless.
As it should be imo, you can still fight back on Hive 1 Tech as aliens, but not very well. If marines have essentially Tier2 tech there should be a big advantage. That's the reward for dominating the map and getting jetpacks really quickly with 6+ RTs and 2 Command Stations.
I feel like a JP is much more useful in PvP, for defense, and for general strategic movement than a BB Gorge. They're approximately as effective at killing structures and bases. Add to that the fact that JP upgrades are in the pipeline, and JPs are looking a bit OP for 10 res.
As it should be imo, you can still back on Hive 1 Tech as aliens, but not very well. If marines have essentially Tier2 tech there should be a big advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jetpacks are a counter to hive 2 and hive 3 abilities... so really if aliens only have 2 hives then jetpacks still should have the advantage over the aliens, but you're right. If aliens have 1 hive then jetpacks should be a death sentence every time. If they aren't then this game is no designed or balanced like it is said it is.
Too many noob crybabies who played against stacked teams where 1 GL JP marine solo'd their only hive. Has nothing to do with being OP.
Techercizer... you have got to be kidding me. You are comparing gorge BB to JP? I am about to uninstall...
Honestly I didn't wanna see the game degrade to this level. Jetpack is nowhere near close to the same tech as BB. Jetpack is one of the most important and powerful techs... more powerful than exo and phase gates... and also better than weapons and armor 1 combined.
Jetpacks can counter all tier lifeforms and abilities when given proper upgrades to back them... in no way shape or form comes close to bile bomb on the power chart.
Jetpacks cost 65 res + 2nd CC to aquire... bille bomb is considerably less... pres has nothing to do with it.
I'm tired of our games most important <b><i>UPGDRADES</i></b> being turned into COD <b><i>PERKS.</i></b>. This is a strategy game too... what strategy is there in jetpacks now? To confuse a skulk or fade for 3 seconds until one of you gets a kill? It's just a perk type thing now more than a game changing upgrade.
My point is that jetpacks barely change the gameplay now... it's just another dimension to pvp combat... and not a very deep dimension either.
What needs to be considered is the difficulty of use of the JP and it's counters. Is it easier to fly around as JPer shooting a hive than it is to catch a JPer as a fade/lerk? I think so, yes. Ease of use should be the main balancing point. Something in your game really easy to fully utilize? It's proposed counters better be just as easy to use, or your game is imbalanced.
UWE could possibly try increasing the JP price from 10-15?
Good God no..... not unless we get more fuel and speed.
You guys fail to see the meta game / asymmetric element that the JP is supposed to bring.
It's not supposed to be as easy for a fade to kill a jetpacker... thats the entire damn point of them... WOW. They are SUPPOSED to be hard to kill... and they are SUPPOSED to be effective. There is no such thing as balancing them to make it easier for everything else to kill them... that is downright idiotic and completely negates any reason to get jetpacks.
When marines get jetpacks the ENTIRE game should shift including the gameplay... and then the game is different from then on in regards to combat any everything else.
Now getting jetpacks is business with usual... barely any meta game impact or gameplay impact now... since jetpacks are hardly an upgrade anyway.
Jetpacks are an "upgrade" which means they are meant to counter something... not make things even. You can kill any lifeform on foot... so the combat is already even in that regard... the gameplay should be even WITHOUT jetpacks. When you get jetpacks, however, the shift goes to marines who now hold a more powerful tech... its the aliens job to counter it. You guys seriously amaze me.
Allowing marines to have jetpack tech should be a near death sentence to aliens unless they already have substantial map control and tech... or they pull some very well coordinated surprise attack and the marines mess up.
This isn't COD. The entire FPS combat is not balanced around the marine and aliens classes... The game gets imbalanced on purpose... thats the whole idea behind upgrades. Lawdy.
Now we get a mix of both, with most marines just doing whatever. How effective exactly do you want this ten pres to be anyways? A fade costs five times as much. Shouldn't something costing 5 times what something else costs be 5 times more effective than something else, unless its a specific counter?
God this game could be so cool if research times were extended by a lot and things countered eachother much harder. Would be more of an RTS.
And yes I do see game play shifts when JP's come out, so they are effective.
<!--quoteo(post=1983829:date=Sep 27 2012, 02:16 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 27 2012, 02:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983829"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not supposed to be as easy for a fade to kill a jetpacker... thats the entire damn point of them... WOW. They are SUPPOSED to be hard to kill... and they are SUPPOSED to be effective. There is no such thing as balancing them to make it easier for everything else to kill them... that is downright idiotic and completely negates any reason to get jetpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure if this was sarcasm or if I not understanding you correctly, but you're saying that a 50 res Fade should not be able to kill a 10 res upgraded Marine?!?!
Now we get a mix of both, with most marines just doing whatever. How effective exactly do you want this ten pres to be anyways? A fade costs five times as much. Shouldn't something costing 5 times what something else costs be 5 times more effective than something else, unless its a specific counter?
God this game could be so cool if research times were extended by a lot and things countered eachother much harder. Would be more of an RTS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong again... NS2 does not have any hard counters... it was designed this way on purpose. It free's up the gameplay and leaves skill as the defining factor in winning.
Also as far as fades vs jetpacks... the cost means barely anything really. If you can solo a fade with an LMG jetpack then the fade was simply terrible and didn't understand how to play fade. A fade should almost never die unless he jumps into a group of like 5 marines, or does something stupid. The fade is much more powerful than a jetpack marine in terms of killing power, when it is used correctly.
If a fade gets greedy or put in a bad position a jp marine should be able to kill it... using lmg or sg. A lerk is also able to counter JP pretty easily too unless they have a shotgun. Realistically a JP marine with a SG should be able to 1v1 any lifeform and win.... of course it all comes down to skill in the end but there shouldn't be any hard limitations to what a JP can do. This is simply what the devs are doing now by nerfing the JP. They are limiting its effectiveness and putting training wheels on the game when there is already plenty of counters against jetpacks...
It's the crying and noobs that are ruining the game and turning it into COD. I wish the devs would trust their own judgement with this... look back to NS1 where the jetpacks were way better but weren't an instant win when you got them either.
If you ruin their mobility and the time you can spend in the air you are effectively removing the upgrades you get from using the jetpack. In ns1 you moved extremely fast and had great air control, not to mention you had tons of fuel... but a good fade could still get you since they can run away and heal or use focus. There are already tons of counters to JP. Please give us REAL jetpacks and not this crappy version that doesnt even resemble a jetpack in general... and it certainly doesnt follow the gameplay of previous builds and NS1.
Jetpacks are an "upgrade" which means they are meant to counter something... not make things even. You can kill any lifeform on foot... so the combat is already even in that regard... the gameplay should be even WITHOUT jetpacks. When you get jetpacks, however, the shift goes to marines who now hold a more powerful tech... its the aliens job to counter it. You guys seriously amaze me.
Allowing marines to have jetpack tech should be a near death sentence to aliens unless they already have substantial map control and tech... or they pull some very well coordinated surprise attack and the marines mess up.
This isn't COD. The entire FPS combat is not balanced around the marine and aliens classes... The game gets imbalanced on purpose... thats the whole idea behind upgrades. Lawdy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see why an upgrade should counter anything, where exactly that it state that it has to be like that? Also in Broodwar there weren't these clear cut hard counters that we see in SC2, so there's no set-in-stone way that an RTS has to be. An RTS doesn't have to have hard counters.
I see the JP in its current state as an equipment upgrade that makes it easier to deal with the higher lifeforms, nothing more. If it had to be an actual counter to something it would have to be much more expensive so you couldn't just buy one immediately after you die. If it was like that then yes it could be buffed, but certainly not when it costs 10 res, that is ridiculous.
Right now in their current state they don't counter anything... any lifeform can easily take down a jetpacker... jetpacks are no longer a useful counter to anything and they arent even useful for mobility (Which also helps with lifeform counters).
They are a perky gimmick... they don't change the meta game much if all they do is make it a little easier to counter life forms. For a fade... it won't matter much if they have a jetpack or not.. fade still has the advantage... especially now.
At least in previous builds a jetpack vs fade was a pretty damn even battle.
Jetpacks are mainly a counter to onos and skulks. Lerks and fades still are deadly vs jetpacks...
It's mostly the fuel nerf that has caused all the problems... you need to be able to actually fly with the jetpacks... this doesn't even really make them that much more combat effective... only vs skulks and onos... which jp should always be able to counter.
Skulks simply shouldnt have a chance against a guy with a JP and SG... its just the way the game works... of course its still baseed on skill but even skilled players a jetpack should win.
Right now jetpack won't gain you much. Since a skulk knows that the JP will run out of fuel so fast... you just wait for them to be vulernable. It actually works to the skulks advantage more now. It's assbackwards.
To me it is pretty simple: if the JP is supposed to make marines really tough to kill then the JP needs to cost much more, as in if you buy it and say a shotgun or GL then you will not be able to buy them again for a while. But as it stands right now with the JP then it is very fair if you consider the price of it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you can solo a fade with an LMG jetpack then the fade was simply terrible and didn't understand how to play fade. A fade should almost never die unless he jumps into a group of like 5 marines, or does something stupid. The fade is much more powerful than a jetpack marine in terms of killing power, when it is used correctly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Realistically a JP marine with a SG should be able to 1v1 any lifeform and win<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You keep contradicting yourself. First you say that a Fade should not be able to kill a JP, but then go on to say that if you kill a Fade w/ a JP that the Fade was poorly skilled. Indicating that a Fade should be able to kill a JP.
Then you say a 10+20 res JP/SG should win against “any†lifeform. This would be a hard counter and not a soft as you say it is.
Your writing makes you sound very confused.
Then you say a 10+20 res JP/SG should win against “any†lifeform. This would be a hard counter and not a soft as you say it is.
Your writing makes you sound very confused.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never once said fade shouldn't be able to kill JP. Never once.... I also didn't say it SHOULD win against any lifeform... but that it COULD.
Basically what I am saying is exactly what I have said. Remove the limitations that have been put in the JP to make it ABLE to counter lifeforms as it always has been able to. I'm not asking to make it a God upgrade since even if it has infinite fuel it still wouldn't be unstoppable.
All I am saying is that is has been degraded into a perk that doesn't counter anything like it should be able to.
Everything I am saying is hypothetical anyway.... a jetpack should hypothetically be able to kill any other lifeform in certain situations. Im not saying it should ALWAYS be able to... but it should have the ability to. Right now it doesn't have that ability... and JP has been limited which works against its design goal.
Then you need to learn to play better w/ the JP because I and many others have no problems killing any type of lifeforms with it.
I think the confusion here is that someone wants something to be a certain way, and so therefore "how come no one can see why my opinion is obviously the best one".
Still confused?
<!--quoteo(post=1983838:date=Sep 27 2012, 02:33 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Sep 27 2012, 02:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Realistically a JP marine with a SG should be able to 1v1 any lifeform and win</b>....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
L O ###### L.
I rarely use JP anymore since it's a waste of res and I can be just as effective without one. I don't need a JP to do well, but having one should drastically improve my effectiveness, yet it doesn't. It just allows me to take an alternate route somewhere and buy a few seconds of time while engaging multiple targets. Sure it's helpful vs a single skulk... but it should be more than that.
I have no problems killing anything... the problem I have is staying up in the air and having good mobility with an upgrade that is supposed to be a jetpack. You aren't looking at the big picture here.
Even slight balance changes like reducing fuel by 20% effect the entire games balance and gameplay. You can't just come in and tweak a setting like that after it's been one way for almost a year not to mention decade for NS1.
You might not notice a change in your 1v1 combat engagements, but it effects balance at the highest levels. Problem is that they nerfed acceleration AND fuel consumption at the same time. They way overshot it and didn't double check it since nobody complained.
Before, I could realistically kill up to 6 skulks chasing me if I had a jetpack... now I am totally screwed if I get into that situation. I don't have enough airtime to do anything effective. Also you cannot chase down and evade an onos like you could before. Soloing an onos with a jetpack should be viable... now an onos just can wait for you to run out of fuel or simply run away (you wont be able to catch due to crap fuel consumption). Test it all out if you want. You might think things seem fine right now, but there are some basic things the jetpack should be able to do that it no longer can.
There needs to be change.