Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1981498:date=Sep 21 2012, 06:38 PM:name=Shaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shaker @ Sep 21 2012, 06:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981498"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->edit: Oh a quick question - What IS rifle butt supposed to do? Its the most inconsistent thing. Sometimes they get pushed away, sometimes theyre stunned and cant bite, sometimes theyre stunned and CAN bite - its all over the place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Daze or rather blurry vision, slight damage and knockback, the stun is a bug
I think this thread is onto something, just look at the popular marine build orders... Almost no one goes arms lab first because marines simply aren't afraid of skulks. I feel like I can beat skulks pretty easily even at a0 w0. This makes it so going Phase Tech first is the obvious choice.
sometimes I feel like they should make landing bites very easy, and reduce skulk hp to compensate. This would make closing distance more difficult, but make it so close combat was easier. This might make life for higher skill skulk players difficult though.
Maybe reduce marine armor slightly, so you don't need to parasite A0 marines, paired with slightly reduced skulk health.
<!--quoteo(post=1981504:date=Sep 21 2012, 02:47 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Sep 21 2012, 02:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If your running out of energy as a fade your doing it wrong, very wrong... AFAIK fade swipe didnt change in range so theres no reason why thats any different in 220... the skulk bite range does feel short at times, but imo is probably correct in the end, its just highlighting other issues in the engine/netcode.
Rifle butt only stuns if the skulk is in the air, the velocity being somewhat random. if they are biting when stunned they keep biting and actually cannot stop, otherwise they cannot bite until the stun is over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm talking about the adrenaline nerf - nothing about fade range. Please, hop into a live server and try it out - the fade hardly feels like an upgrade from a skulk.
I think the skulk is gettin more balanced. It's gotten much better to play against as marine, and the fact that they fixed (somewhat) the eratic movement animations to the point where the skulk isnt a retarded pinball bouncing left right up down you can actually kill them.
This forces the skulk player to attack strategically, no more "hurrr hurrr im gonna bounce around dead on into a squad of marines duurrr" and makes it so the player has to time their attacks and actually flank the squad he wants to attack.
<!--quoteo(post=1981485:date=Sep 21 2012, 02:13 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Sep 21 2012, 02:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Noticed newbie skulks spam biting yes. Not hitting because of the narrow cone, yep. Fix the cone to be a tad bit more wider and it will be much better, while fixing long range biting as well. All of which I've already posted in here...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you say noobie skulks, do you mean players from Nexzil or Inversion? Or Duplex or Exertus?
Because while I was indeed talking about public games, this is something I've seen in practice matches with players from each of these teams.
This isn't a "it only effects people until they get used to it" kind of problem. Nor is it a "you need to learn how to ambush" problem. If a marine knows what he's doing, it is <b>incredibly</b> simple to fend off multiple skulks with little fear of dying.
Does it take more skill to play a skulk in 220? Yes, absolutely. Would things be better if the bite cone was increased? Yes, entirely possible.
But more often than not, its not that the marine isn't dead center of the screen, its that he's jumping around in the air over the skulks head.
Now, say, this isn't a problem if the skulk also jumps right? But a smart marine can just use his rifle to melee you away if you even think about leaving the floor. Now, the stun may be a bug that no one has gotten around to fixing yet, but I'm not sure how you can justify giving the marines a no-penalty knock back and daze ability which is a direct counter to skulks.
Again, why does the "Ranged" team have a free, automatic counter to the "Melee" team? Why don't skulks have a free automatic counter to bullets?
I really hope you're right about the melee cone Kouji. Because continuing to say the skulk isn't broken rings incredibly hollow when I go and watch players I <b>know</b> are incredibly skilled fail to even land a single bite on a marine, over and over again.
He is right, aliens right now is no fun. Im a bad lerk/fade player and die very fast.. no those 2 are a nono for me and i guess that will meet all not so high skill players. What is left is a Onos. Onos is fun, but sometimes really sad since u have to run for ur life as soon as u see an exo... got a game where the com made exos protecting everything meaningful.... and besides this a bunch of rines is scary too.
But u cant always be onos... 75 res is alot and in the beginning u only have 20. So what can i play? Gorge of course... playin the glass heal ###### with some joke turrets/clogs... no fun really. Ok bile is semi fun but thats it. And bile needs to be researched first and that doesnt happen early game most of the time. In ns1 i was all day gorge player... see how bad the gorge in ns2 is. A few patches back he was kinda boring but at least u were able to do something.
And since u changed the bite cone skulk is kinda lame and with every further nerf i lose will to play alien at all.
Also the change to the perks (chambers), that u cant combine (camo, silence, feign) everything at the same time took alot of fun away from the alien side.
I've been rage quitting alot as skulk this build. Drives me nuts. If I manage to get into melee range with a marine, he should die. But more often than not this does not happen. I die like a ######.
I love playing as skulk once I get celerity (and leap is obviously a plus), but without it, the skulk feels too slow. Is it just me that thinks like this?
Perhaps not allowing marines to reload or shoot while jumping would solve the difficulties the skulks currently have after they close to melee range with a marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1981576:date=Sep 22 2012, 01:04 AM:name=DanielD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DanielD @ Sep 22 2012, 01:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981576"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps not allowing marines to reload or shoot while jumping would solve the difficulties the skulks currently have after they close to melee range with a marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Introducing more CoD-like limitations where the player has less control over their actions will only aggravate players. Skulks should be fine after the cone is buffed a bit and player collisions and some hitboxes are tweaked.
<!--quoteo(post=1981590:date=Sep 21 2012, 06:36 PM:name=Cico)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cico @ Sep 21 2012, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981590"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->last tweet : Just fixed a problem where skulk bites weren't registering when a marine is clearly in your sights and close to you.
let's see how it works after the next patch. but right now playing alien isn't fun at all. Can't believe balance is almost 50 / 50<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Goes to show how little that statistic truly means.
<!--quoteo(post=1981592:date=Sep 21 2012, 06:49 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Sep 21 2012, 06:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Goes to show how little that statistic truly means.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it won't apply until after release when there are 10 or 100 times as many rounds being played. You also need every player to actually know what's happening, have a stable framerate and so on. It's getting there, but it's not there yet.
Blizzard uses balance statistics like this very effectively in developing Starcraft 2, but it's because they have statistically strong data (sample sizes, clear splits between ladder divisions/regions/races/maps).
The problem now is the marine is actually better at close combat... the whole idea is marine = good ranged / bad melee... while Skulk is no ranged; very good melee.
What probably should happen is the marine fire cone is widened with a minor reduction in lvl 1 damage; while the skulk bite cone extended and widened. This will A) make the marine more effective at hitting moving targets, but B) make the skulks move effective at close combat.
Trying to balance the global win ratio via the Skulk is simply making it not enjoyable to play as Aliens.
Widening the firing cone doesn't make it easier to hit moving targets. It makes it easier to hit them for free, and miss them much more than you deserve to for aiming well.
<!--quoteo(post=1981396:date=Sep 22 2012, 02:06 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Sep 22 2012, 02:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981396"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Skulks need to time their bites (common knowledge for a bit more experienced players) - The marine needs to be dead center on screen at the moment the mouth is closed (the damage trigger), with the current implementation/narrow bite cone (build220)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Kouji could you confirm this? Steam is down for me atm for some reason.
I thought the damage trigger was on mouse click (one frame or the same frame as bite animation start), not when the mouth closes.
*edit* i better add something to the thread. My view is it doesn't really matter how small you make bitecones, bite ranges. Everything depends on the level of control in alien movement that allows you to get into valid bite positions. Right now, the mismatch between required bite positions and movement that's supposed to get you into these positions is the real problem. Precise movement/precise bite ranges, or imprecise movement/imprecise bite ranges.
Basically, i dislike the fact that the only way to get reliable bites in is to floor walk around marines in a very limited fashion. If you floor walk too much, you'll miss from colission issues, accel/decel issues, and missing bites in the space between marine leg hitbox issues - there's no higher skill ceiling here or freedom of combat movement anymore. And everyone knows floor walking is a death sentence with competent marines
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1981606:date=Sep 21 2012, 11:18 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Sep 21 2012, 11:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kouji could you confirm this? Steam is down for me atm for some reason.
I thought the damage trigger was on mouse click (one frame or the same frame as bite animation start), not when the mouth closes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The client side predicted hit icon does indeed show it as on mouse click. But at speed 0.1 (server command) and at the last bite, it shows the marine death after the mouth has closed. So my guess is, the client side prediction is faster as it doesn't wait on server conformation. While the actual death of the marine is server side and it triggers on mouth close. Cory mentioned it as well, I'm not sure which animation frame the trigger occurs though.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1981613:date=Sep 22 2012, 01:46 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Sep 22 2012, 01:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The client side predicted hit icon does indeed show it as on mouse click. But at speed 0.1 (server command) and at the last bite, it shows the marine death after the mouth has closed. So my guess is, the client side prediction is faster as it doesn't wait on server conformation. While the actual death of the marine is server side and it triggers on mouth close. Cory mentioned it as well, I'm not sure which animation frame the trigger occurs though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The damage is predicted on the client, but the death is not - the client can't know if the target actually dies or not; imagine a gorge healing a skulk in combat; a rifle bullet which would kill the skulk can't (on your client) take into consideration that the gorge has healed the skulk on the server before that bullet is arrives.
The client can predict if it hits or not but not if it kills or not. So the death message has to wait until the server reports it; which will be a bit delayed on the client - and has nothing to do with the mouth animation. The server runs the same code to determine if you hit as your client so it should be the same.
Skulk has certainly gotten more meh since 190s. This is odd, considering that marines have so drastically improved due to improved hitreg and performance.
Also I think skulks will become more fun to play if the collision model is improved so they are less erratic in melee and less likely to phase through enemies.
After more playing with aliens I've changed my mind about the bite. Once you realize you have to just stick your head into the marine to bite him it's really not that hard.
it is hard on 120ms and thats the only servers you can play on with the best ping...
And most times it feels like your close enough for a bite to hit, just by common sense and judgement...but nah it doesnt hit. Ive seen 3 skulks circling a single marine and he survives for an absurd amount of time? bad skulks? maybe, maybe not.
<!--quoteo(post=1981691:date=Sep 22 2012, 07:46 PM:name=DanielD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DanielD @ Sep 22 2012, 07:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After more playing with aliens I've changed my mind about the bite. Once you realize you have to just stick your head into the marine to bite him it's really not that hard.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Damn it...I have been getting close and right clicking...instead I should have just tried to ram my skulk up the marine...and wait for the biting to automatically kick in. (j/k)
Sounds like something has been broken on the hit reg side which is why so many of us where getting rage episodes where we couldn't seem to get that bloody bite to land (frustrating as hell).
The distance nerf may still be an issue but its hard to tell if there is a secondary (and more obvious) issue.
Codeine yeah well why dont you try to play with 120ping on Counter-Strike. Samething :P when you have over 50ping on FPS games its unPlayable. The Delay on hitbox is redic..
But almost ALL Skulks atm have bad aim cuz they never had GOOD aim to start with. the 180bite was OP with a big range.
Comments
Daze or rather blurry vision, slight damage and knockback, the stun is a bug
sometimes I feel like they should make landing bites very easy, and reduce skulk hp to compensate. This would make closing distance more difficult, but make it so close combat was easier. This might make life for higher skill skulk players difficult though.
Maybe reduce marine armor slightly, so you don't need to parasite A0 marines, paired with slightly reduced skulk health.
AFAIK fade swipe didnt change in range so theres no reason why thats any different in 220... the skulk bite range does feel short at times, but imo is probably correct in the end, its just highlighting other issues in the engine/netcode.
Rifle butt only stuns if the skulk is in the air, the velocity being somewhat random. if they are biting when stunned they keep biting and actually cannot stop, otherwise they cannot bite until the stun is over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm talking about the adrenaline nerf - nothing about fade range. Please, hop into a live server and try it out - the fade hardly feels like an upgrade from a skulk.
This forces the skulk player to attack strategically, no more "hurrr hurrr im gonna bounce around dead on into a squad of marines duurrr" and makes it so the player has to time their attacks and actually flank the squad he wants to attack.
When you say noobie skulks, do you mean players from Nexzil or Inversion? Or Duplex or Exertus?
Because while I was indeed talking about public games, this is something I've seen in practice matches with players from each of these teams.
This isn't a "it only effects people until they get used to it" kind of problem. Nor is it a "you need to learn how to ambush" problem. If a marine knows what he's doing, it is <b>incredibly</b> simple to fend off multiple skulks with little fear of dying.
Does it take more skill to play a skulk in 220? Yes, absolutely. Would things be better if the bite cone was increased? Yes, entirely possible.
But more often than not, its not that the marine isn't dead center of the screen, its that he's jumping around in the air over the skulks head.
Now, say, this isn't a problem if the skulk also jumps right? But a smart marine can just use his rifle to melee you away if you even think about leaving the floor. Now, the stun may be a bug that no one has gotten around to fixing yet, but I'm not sure how you can justify giving the marines a no-penalty knock back and daze ability which is a direct counter to skulks.
Again, why does the "Ranged" team have a free, automatic counter to the "Melee" team? Why don't skulks have a free automatic counter to bullets?
I really hope you're right about the melee cone Kouji. Because continuing to say the skulk isn't broken rings incredibly hollow when I go and watch players I <b>know</b> are incredibly skilled fail to even land a single bite on a marine, over and over again.
Im a bad lerk/fade player and die very fast.. no those 2 are a nono for me and i guess that will meet all not so high skill players.
What is left is a Onos. Onos is fun, but sometimes really sad since u have to run for ur life as soon as u see an exo... got a game where the com made exos protecting everything meaningful.... and besides this a bunch of rines is scary too.
But u cant always be onos... 75 res is alot and in the beginning u only have 20.
So what can i play? Gorge of course... playin the glass heal ###### with some joke turrets/clogs... no fun really. Ok bile is semi fun but thats it. And bile needs to be researched first and that doesnt happen early game most of the time.
In ns1 i was all day gorge player... see how bad the gorge in ns2 is. A few patches back he was kinda boring but at least u were able to do something.
And since u changed the bite cone skulk is kinda lame and with every further nerf i lose will to play alien at all.
Also the change to the perks (chambers), that u cant combine (camo, silence, feign) everything at the same time took alot of fun away from the alien side.
Honestly, i think the range is fine but the cone is awful now.
I will just play gorge early game until the skulk is fixed. So rage inducing at the moment.
Introducing more CoD-like limitations where the player has less control over their actions will only aggravate players.
Skulks should be fine after the cone is buffed a bit and player collisions and some hitboxes are tweaked.
let's see how it works after the next patch. but right now playing alien isn't fun at all. Can't believe balance is almost 50 / 50
let's see how it works after the next patch. but right now playing alien isn't fun at all. Can't believe balance is almost 50 / 50<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Goes to show how little that statistic truly means.
Yeah, it won't apply until after release when there are 10 or 100 times as many rounds being played. You also need every player to actually know what's happening, have a stable framerate and so on. It's getting there, but it's not there yet.
Blizzard uses balance statistics like this very effectively in developing Starcraft 2, but it's because they have statistically strong data (sample sizes, clear splits between ladder divisions/regions/races/maps).
What probably should happen is the marine fire cone is widened with a minor reduction in lvl 1 damage; while the skulk bite cone extended and widened. This will A) make the marine more effective at hitting moving targets, but B) make the skulks move effective at close combat.
Trying to balance the global win ratio via the Skulk is simply making it not enjoyable to play as Aliens.
- The marine needs to be dead center on screen at the moment the mouth is closed (the damage trigger), with the current implementation/narrow bite cone (build220)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kouji could you confirm this? Steam is down for me atm for some reason.
I thought the damage trigger was on mouse click (one frame or the same frame as bite animation start), not when the mouth closes.
*edit*
i better add something to the thread.
My view is it doesn't really matter how small you make bitecones, bite ranges. Everything depends on the level of control in alien movement that allows you to get into valid bite positions. Right now, the mismatch between required bite positions and movement that's supposed to get you into these positions is the real problem. Precise movement/precise bite ranges, or imprecise movement/imprecise bite ranges.
Basically, i dislike the fact that the only way to get reliable bites in is to floor walk around marines in a very limited fashion. If you floor walk too much, you'll miss from colission issues, accel/decel issues, and missing bites in the space between marine leg hitbox issues - there's no higher skill ceiling here or freedom of combat movement anymore. And everyone knows floor walking is a death sentence with competent marines
I thought the damage trigger was on mouse click (one frame or the same frame as bite animation start), not when the mouth closes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The client side predicted hit icon does indeed show it as on mouse click. But at speed 0.1 (server command) and at the last bite, it shows the marine death after the mouth has closed. So my guess is, the client side prediction is faster as it doesn't wait on server conformation. While the actual death of the marine is server side and it triggers on mouth close. Cory mentioned it as well, I'm not sure which animation frame the trigger occurs though.
The damage is predicted on the client, but the death is not - the client can't know if the target actually dies or not; imagine a gorge healing a skulk in combat; a rifle bullet which would kill the skulk can't (on your client) take into consideration that the gorge has healed the skulk on the server before that bullet is arrives.
The client can predict if it hits or not but not if it kills or not. So the death message has to wait until the server reports it; which will be a bit delayed on the client - and has nothing to do with the mouth animation. The server runs the same code to determine if you hit as your client so it should be the same.
Also I think skulks will become more fun to play if the collision model is improved so they are less erratic in melee and less likely to phase through enemies.
Aliens now have to AIM not just jump around and spam bite.
And most times it feels like your close enough for a bite to hit, just by common sense and judgement...but nah it doesnt hit. Ive seen 3 skulks circling a single marine and he survives for an absurd amount of time? bad skulks? maybe, maybe not.
Damn it...I have been getting close and right clicking...instead I should have just tried to ram my skulk up the marine...and wait for the biting to automatically kick in.
(j/k)
Sounds like something has been broken on the hit reg side which is why so many of us where getting rage episodes where we couldn't seem to get that bloody bite to land (frustrating as hell).
The distance nerf may still be an issue but its hard to tell if there is a secondary (and more obvious) issue.
Samething :P when you have over 50ping on FPS games its unPlayable. The Delay on hitbox is redic..
But almost ALL Skulks atm have bad aim cuz they never had GOOD aim to start with. the 180bite was OP with a big range.
+1