Skulks need to feel powerful
Argathor
Join Date: 2011-07-18 Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
Join Date: 2011-07-18 Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
The Skulk needs to feel and be powerful for NS2 to be successful, because most alien players spend the majority of the game as a Skulk. Gameplay must be a positive experience.
Since I started playing around b180 the power of the Skulk has been constantly diminished to the point we are at today, playing a Skulk has become frustrating and boring. For NS2 to be popular players need to feel powerful and effective. It creates fun and engaging gameplay, where people feel they have what it takes to make a difference.
I partially understand the philosophy that Aliens 'struggle' in the first portion of the game, then become much more powerful later on, it sounds like a very clever gameplay idea. The problem is that it's not fun at all to play for the aliens. There is a limit to how asymmetrical the game can become, gameplay needs to be positive not negative.
The philosophy behind overall gameplay for aliens and marines must be that they feel powerful and capable of making a difference at all points in the game.
NS2 has such great potential for fantastic gameplay, titanic struggles back and forth, sudden rushes, feints, etc. Currently that potential is very inconsistent, I hope that by focusing on positive gameplay that can be turned around to create a more consistent positive experience for players.
Since I started playing around b180 the power of the Skulk has been constantly diminished to the point we are at today, playing a Skulk has become frustrating and boring. For NS2 to be popular players need to feel powerful and effective. It creates fun and engaging gameplay, where people feel they have what it takes to make a difference.
I partially understand the philosophy that Aliens 'struggle' in the first portion of the game, then become much more powerful later on, it sounds like a very clever gameplay idea. The problem is that it's not fun at all to play for the aliens. There is a limit to how asymmetrical the game can become, gameplay needs to be positive not negative.
The philosophy behind overall gameplay for aliens and marines must be that they feel powerful and capable of making a difference at all points in the game.
NS2 has such great potential for fantastic gameplay, titanic struggles back and forth, sudden rushes, feints, etc. Currently that potential is very inconsistent, I hope that by focusing on positive gameplay that can be turned around to create a more consistent positive experience for players.
Comments
Nobody ever complained about that before, I dont see what is wrong with it now.
Im not in beta, but ive seen plenty of videos, skulk seems fine imo
Let's imagine you have a balanced game. In theory you can nerf or buff all abilities/weapon by the same amount such that the game remains balanced.
So there is an additional degree of freedom in the balancing process, a kind of general op-ness, that you should be able to tune to make the game as fun as possible. I don't know where ns2 stand in this regard.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen's_Hypothesis" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen's_Hypothesis</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since I started playing around b180 the power of the Skulk has been constantly diminished to the point we are at today, playing a Skulk has become frustrating and boring. For NS2 to be popular players need to feel powerful and effective. It creates fun and engaging gameplay, where people feel they have what it takes to make a difference.
I partially understand the philosophy that Aliens 'struggle' in the first portion of the game, then become much more powerful later on, it sounds like a very clever gameplay idea. The problem is that it's not fun at all to play for the aliens. There is a limit to how asymmetrical the game can become, gameplay needs to be positive not negative.
The philosophy behind overall gameplay for aliens and marines must be that they feel powerful and capable of making a difference at all points in the game.
NS2 has such great potential for fantastic gameplay, titanic struggles back and forth, sudden rushes, feints, etc. Currently that potential is very inconsistent, I hope that by focusing on positive gameplay that can be turned around to create a more consistent positive experience for players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is indeed extremly important to keep things finely balanced. In NS1, marines was slightly more powerful than aliens, which was compensated by skulks being faster on the map (40-80% faster, depending on how good your bunnyhopping skills were) as well as faster to spawn. This allowed marines to feel powerful, and skulks to be cannon-fodder without it hurting too much (cause you were quickly respawned and got back into the action very quickly as well).
Needless to say, that balance is not present in NS2. Marines moves almost as fast as aliens strategically (about 80%), and aliens spawnrate is slower than marine spawnrate (about 50% slower - and only if eggs are present. NS1 didn't have eggs, so you always spawned if you could, IIRC (someone is sure to correct me if I'm wrong)).
Exactly how things are to be balanced in NS2 is still up for grabs. I kinda like the "slow but powerful" idea for marines, but that will require a marine/skulk rebalancing regarding to strategic movement speed (loose the strategic sprint for marines would do it) and spawn times (flip the spawn timer so aliens spawn faster).
The reason this have not been done so far is simply that performance has been awful allowing marines to be dominated by skulks. Lately, that has started to shift, so we start seeing the problems with the current setup.
Feels like you have to be in the players model to actually hit them.
IMO skulks simply need a movement advantage to compensate for their weaker state. This is the advantage that the whole alien side has over marines. Either skulks just need to go faster (fixing walljump wont hurt either), or marines need to be slower (jumping and walking backwards would need to be looked at).
I cant really place what i find wrong with skulk gameplay at the moment, but it does feel very bland this build, where I found it very enjoyable in previous builds.
NSArmslab gorge race in 2004, that memory will never, ever leave me. Ill tell it to my grandchildren on my deathbed.
In the first games i played of the 220, and another patch before between 190 and 210, for the first time i thought: "wow, UWE just brought the game down".
Seriously i loved this game but it is not even fun to play anymore without friends. Beside the fact that a lot of new players (noobs) don't listen to nothing (others do: newbies), the numbers destroyed the game another time (adrenaline, skulk, gorge ,yeah gorge!)... And one day it will be enough for me to leave it. And i won't be the only one from the old players i think.
WHEN SHOULD WE HAVE AN ENJOYABLE BUILD AGAIN?!?!?!?!?!?!
Play nice. There is no need to be so confontational
-- Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Speed might help counter that, as might bite cone changes, but close combat is hard because I lose frame rate, and find myself disorientated trying to figure out where the hell the marine went.
Imo, it is unbelievable that a 1v1 in skulk is won by a marine more than 50% of the time... Do anybody remember the skulk in early ns2? where the hitregs were good and marines felt weak if not in groups? Do you remember when the game was SOOOOOO GOOOOD for us to play?
In the first games i played of the 220, and another patch before between 190 and 210, for the first time i thought: "wow, UWE just brought the game down".
Seriously i loved this game but it is not even fun to play anymore without friends. Beside the fact that a lot of new players (noobs) don't listen to nothing (others do: newbies), the numbers destroyed the game another time (adrenaline, skulk, gorge ,yeah gorge!)... And one day it will be enough for me to leave it. And i won't be the only one from the old players i think.
WHEN SHOULD WE HAVE AN ENJOYABLE BUILD AGAIN?!?!?!?!?!?!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmm well I havn't had a chance to play the beta, but in NS1 a good marine could easily take down 2 skulks on his own if they didn't set up a clever ambush. Too have success as a skulk you needed to set up ambushes above doors, have multiple skulks running at the marine or just get behind the marines in some other way. And it was damn fun because of how good it felt to have your ambush succeed and have successfully employed tactics.
-- Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
In NS2, aliens are COMPLETELY at the whim/restirctions of the kham, and each ability has to be upgraded SEPARATELY (Who's idea was that?). So now aliens can't even get two hive abilities unless researched, can't choose upgrade abilities unless researched. Can't use field crags/shifts/shades as it's too dangerous expensive to drop in early game, and building ANYTHING in vents are right out.
But marines? Custom everything. Comm upgrades and you choose with each spawn.
Aliens should upgrade a hive, then gorges drop the structures for ALL abilities for that structure. Three needed for max, just like NS1. Allow them in vents and NOT on infestation.
Right now the teams have reversed and feels off...
Feels like you have to be in the players model to actually hit them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Skulkbite range is fine, but it is indeed shorter now. This fixed the issue of "long range" bites that still hit. it is just the narrow cone that is the cause of hits that you think should hit but don't. Mostly related to bites with the marine not dead center on screen.
- Skulks need to time their bites (common knowledge for a bit more experienced players)
- The marine needs to be dead center on screen at the moment the mouth is closed (the damage trigger), with the current implementation/narrow bite cone (build220)
Marines should dont be able to shoot/reload AND jump at the same time.
In NS2, aliens are COMPLETELY at the whim/restirctions of the kham, and each ability has to be upgraded SEPARATELY (Who's idea was that?). So now aliens can't even get two hive abilities unless researched, can't choose upgrade abilities unless researched. Can't use field crags/shifts/shades as it's too dangerous expensive to drop in early game, and building ANYTHING in vents are right out.
But marines? Custom everything. Comm upgrades and you choose with each spawn.
Aliens should upgrade a hive, then gorges drop the structures for ALL abilities for that structure. Three needed for max, just like NS1. Allow them in vents and NOT on infestation.
Right now the teams have reversed and feels off...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 is not NS1 and it is not 1 month before release that you change totally the gorge.
The skulk size in ns2 changed and is bigger (i think), so easier to hit, easier to kill (same life if i remember as ns1). The early beta showed a mechanic where skulks were winning most of their 1v1.
- Skulks need to time their bites (common knowledge for a bit more experienced players)
- The marine needs to be dead center on screen at the moment the mouth is closed (the damage trigger), with the current implementation/narrow bite cone (build220)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree about the bite range being fine. As it stands, both marine melee attacks, switch axe (and the welder) and rifle melee, have a greater range than the skulk bite.
One of the many a-symmetrical aspects of Natural Selection is that one team is predominantly Ranged, and the other is predominantly Melee.
This change has made the Ranged team more formidable at Melee than the Melee team.
I agree that long range bites are a bit silly, but its equally ridiculous when a marine welds, stuns, or axes me from beyond the range at which I can bite him.
Skulk dominance (though I'm not really sure what this was for I never saw it), might have been a problem. But now I very commonly watch on as four skulks dog pile on a solo marine desperately trying to kill him. A situation like that, and the marine should be dead. But more often than not I see that marine jumping around and killing one or two of the skulks before he goes down. And if he has a friend, its even likelier that all the skulks will die, and accomplish nothing.
Regardless of whatever win/loss statistics are available, I've played too many public games in 220 where the aliens lose simply because they've run out of eggs after repeated attempts at swarming a handful of marines, and failing to kill them all before being wiped out.
Marines should always have the advantage at range. But Melee should always be the Skulks domain. Otherwise its a lifeform dedicated to being cannon fodder, which is just boring, and tedious.
Change the bite range, or don't. I don't care how its fixed, but this is a serious issue, and I very much doubt you're going to see any serious competitive play until this problem is solved.
That scenario sounds more like bite spam skulks though or high latency skulks... I for one haven't really noticed the bite range being shorter, during my play. What I did notice is that you need to be more accurate now with the tiny bite cone. Which is under scrutiny right now and I think should be wider, especially considering the wideness of the mouth on screen that seems to indicate a much wider bite/damage cone.
Also I'm indeed not a fan of axe/riflebutt/welder out ranging Skulks.
The rifle butt stun (not being able to move) is a bug btw.
Walljumping obviously needs a lot of work, as right now its completely useless.
Walljumping obviously needs a lot of work, as right now its completely useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Listen to this guy devs please.
Performance ++ <-- good stuff
Pinball mode ++ <-- fix please :P
The jump on marines feels pretty lame but I can see why it needs to be there. The problem is currently even ambushing from over a door you get one bite in and he jumps miles away.
Have you played pub games recently? If you pay attention to this you will easily start noticing how there's usually a group of skulks trying to bite down a single marine. The marine eventually goes down, but the fact that it takes them several seconds, in which the marine or his buddies usually get at least a few kills, is pretty sad. It's VERY noticeable how the majority of pub skulk players are struggling with this change.
While requiring skill is generally a good thing, the most basic and longest played alien class ALSO needs to remain fun and accessible. Currently the latter is not the case and I can guarantee you new players will simply not bother with the alien faction if this remains an issue. (Heck, even in older builds I already had some of my friends who I brought into NS 2 struggle as a skulk, and that was when the skulk was in a much better position.)
It's all about finding a balance between rewarding skill on the one hand and keeping the class relatively simple and accessible for newer players on the other hand. Hits need to be relatively easy to land if you manage to get close and use speed to your advantage, yet currently it feels more like the speed puts you at a disadvantage since it's impossible to land hits at higher speeds or against moving targets. Skulk skill needs to be about primarily movement mechanics and positioning, not about how well you can aim your mouse to the perfect spot on a marine's ###### hitbox. (That's not to say you shouldn't need to aim at all, but the current iteration is an extreme example of it being far too focussed on near-perfect, impossible for most people, aiming)
Noticed newbie skulks spam biting yes. Not hitting because of the narrow cone, yep. Fix the cone to be a tad bit more wider and it will be much better, while fixing long range biting as well. All of which I've already posted in here...
I don't think using new players as the benchmark is sensible, that will not last very long. Currently the gap between skilled skulks and skilled marines is huge.
Either way, NS2 has fantastic potential and can be amazingly fun. It just seems like some of that potential is being willingly given away at the moment. Average people will not enjoy being so weak for such a large portion of the game.
In no way is this a newbie problem. I see very high level players struggling to land a bite on a decent strafing/jumping marine. The bite range is a very serious problem. As a matter of fact, all alien movement in 220 is a serious problem. I chase fades down without fear, solo them with L1 LMG - its very sad. Skulks struggle to land bites, fades run out of energy and cant even swipe, standing in front of me unable to do anything. The only alien upgrades worth getting are celerity (to maintain any sort of map control) and carapace, since its a passive/easy mode upgrade. I guess you could argue for regen, but in most combat you don't have any energy to escape to take advantage of the regen.
edit: Oh a quick question - What IS rifle butt supposed to do? Its the most inconsistent thing. Sometimes they get pushed away, sometimes theyre stunned and cant bite, sometimes theyre stunned and CAN bite - its all over the place.
AFAIK fade swipe didnt change in range so theres no reason why thats any different in 220... the skulk bite range does feel short at times, but imo is probably correct in the end, its just highlighting other issues in the engine/netcode.
Rifle butt only stuns if the skulk is in the air, the velocity being somewhat random. if they are biting when stunned they keep biting and actually cannot stop, otherwise they cannot bite until the stun is over.