Natural Selection 2 News Update - NS2 Build 220 released

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  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If marines get knocked back to 1 chair, there's not much they can do either - except die. And that's how the game is won. ;-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is untrue, marines with A and W 3 have a much bigger and longer ability to stay in the game versus even 3 hive alien teams than aliens do with just 1 hive versus 2 CCs. The reason for this is simple: alien tech (and thus also lifeform viability) is a lot more dependent on multiple tech points than marine tech is.

    Essentially aliens can only get 1 upgrade with 1 hive, where as marines still have all their upgrades with just 1 CC and a big part of their weaponry. (Shotguns, ARCs, mines). Aliens do retain all of their lifeforms, but the majority of these are simply non-viable at just 1 hive vs multiple CC marines. (Lerk without gas, fade without blink, gorge without bilebomb) More importantly, the skulk at just 1 hive is incredibly useless end-late game, where as the default marine LMG can scale greatly without needing a second tech point.

    Ideally A and W 3 should be tied to 2 CCs, or they just need to find a way for aliens to retain some of their lifeform effectiveness if dropped to just 1 hive.
    (I.e maybe give a single hive the ability to unlock a T2 ability like for example blink for fades, but at a much greater cost. Would also exponentially increase the potential strategies for aliens and make games a lot more exciting overall. You'd need 2 hives to unlock T3 at a greater cost. This would go a long way in mitigating the marine tech advantage)

    Heh I even think this issue deserves it's own tech, it's quite a big one and the potential solutions would make gameplay a lot less linear and thus interesting.
  • VeNeMVeNeM Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 928Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1983765:date=Sep 27 2012, 12:07 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Sep 27 2012, 12:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If marines get knocked back to 1 chair, there's not much they can do either - except die. And that's how the game is won. ;-)

    What I don't like about the game is that marines get no benefit for owning 3 chairs, whereas some of the most powerful alien abilities (stomp, umbra) require 3 hives.

    It seems somewhat unbalanced. Perhaps marines shouldn't be able to get, say exos or grenade launchers or level 3 weapons/armor (or all 3) without 3 chairs?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    i think if they are gonna go exosuit, then make it a 3 chair requirement, or at least knock it back to 3 hives for dual guns
  • Samus1111111Samus1111111 Join Date: 2012-08-07 Member: 154930Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1983779:date=Sep 27 2012, 12:33 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Sep 27 2012, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think if they are gonna go exosuit, then make it a 3 chair requirement, or at least knock it back to 3 hives for dual guns<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Agreed. I'd like to see exo (or at the very least dual gun exo) and A3/W3 on a third chair (and maybe even GL/FT). Then you could tie A2/W2 and JPs to the second chair (and possibly SG).

    I believe that this would make more interesting gameplay since on maps with 5 tech points, marines wouldn't just be happy to sit on 2 (since they have all their upgrades), but there would be constant fighting for a third tech point.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited September 2012
    Forcing a third chair for just 1 upgrade is just silly, it feels incredibly forced. The three - two discrepancy between marines and aliens is fine, but marines need to have A and W 3 tied to 2 CCs at the very least, else they have way too big of an advantage at just 1 CC over aliens at 1 hive. (And aliens aren't really able to keep marines out of the game at just 1 tech point the same way marines can with aliens)

    The third over second hive for aliens isn't as much of a game changer as the 2nd over 1st is, they can manage relatively well even without a third hive anyway. And some asymmetry is good in this regard, aliens are more of an expansionist faction... Though it does raise the question if aliens perhaps need to be a made a little more competitive at just 1 hive, or perhaps have their skulks scale better towards the lategame, even at 1 hive.

    Maybe you could allow alien lifeforms to still 'use' second hive abilities (provided they were unlocked) with just 1 hive, but at a p.res cost. (Or like I said earlier, have 1 hive allow T2 tech but at a much greater cost, and 2 hives T3 tech but at a much greater cost. That would put the alien commander for some bigger choices and make for much more depth to alien strategic gameplay)
  • Samus1111111Samus1111111 Join Date: 2012-08-07 Member: 154930Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1983786:date=Sep 27 2012, 12:40 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Sep 27 2012, 12:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983786"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->aliens are more of an expansionist faction...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    My question is if aliens are the expansionist faction, why can marines (currently) build RTs and other buildings faster, their chairs cost much less than a hive, and they have more mobility (PG/JP)?

    Atm, marines are the ones who are able to expand much quicker and also defend these expansions better (through the use of PGs).
  • VeNeMVeNeM Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 928Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1983771:date=Sep 27 2012, 12:13 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Sep 27 2012, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983771"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is untrue, marines with A and W 3 have a much bigger and longer ability to stay in the game versus even 3 hive alien teams than aliens do with just 1 hive versus 2 CCs. The reason for this is simple: alien tech (and thus also lifeform viability) is a lot more dependent on multiple tech points than marine tech is.

    Essentially aliens can only get 1 upgrade with 1 hive, where as marines still have all their upgrades with just 1 CC and a big part of their weaponry. (Shotguns, ARCs, mines). Aliens do retain all of their lifeforms, but the majority of these are simply non-viable at just 1 hive vs multiple CC marines. (Lerk without gas, fade without blink, gorge without bilebomb) More importantly, the skulk at just 1 hive is incredibly useless end-late game, where as the default marine LMG can scale greatly without needing a second tech point.

    Ideally A and W 3 should be tied to 2 CCs, or they just need to find a way for aliens to retain some of their lifeform effectiveness if dropped to just 1 hive.
    (I.e maybe give a single hive the ability to unlock a T2 ability like for example blink for fades, but at a much greater cost. Would also exponentially increase the potential strategies for aliens and make games a lot more exciting overall. You'd need 2 hives to unlock T3 at a greater cost. This would go a long way in mitigating the marine tech advantage)

    Heh I even think this issue deserves it's own tech, it's quite a big one and the potential solutions would make gameplay a lot less linear and thus interesting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    this is due to alien teams not having the ability to finish a marine team off , this happened all the time in ns1 (turtling). this problem is made worse because lerk doesnt have ranged spores and ranged umbra. and the complete fail that is the onos. you forget that marines have the major hindrance of their armor/weap upgrades tied to the arms lab.


    but the rest of your argument is silly because thats the way its supposed to be. at 1 hive vs multiple cc marines you SHOULD lose. you shouldnt have the ability to directly stand up to the marines as a skulk. at that point marine teams should be nicely upgraded wheres a skulk is the base level alien class. fades and onos still present somewhat of a problem but the only way to have a chance is to get another hive up and get the team evolved again. this mechanic is fine. i dont even see why this is even a question. if youre getting beat down to the point of LOSING GAINED HIVES, then your team is doing something wrong. the fact that you let the marines kill your hive is not an engine problem or some kind of defect in the game. its your teams failure to defend your hive / hold area and prevent marines from gaining upgrades faster than your team. aliens do not deserve to stay fully powered when they are getting beaten. you cant have it both ways. marines dont get to keep jetpacks and exos if they lose their 2nd cm chair, they dont get to use nades and flamers if the aa goes down.


    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Essentially aliens can only get 1 upgrade with 1 hive, where as marines still have all their upgrades with just 1 CC and a big part of their weaponry. (Shotguns, ARCs, mines).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    aliens get way more than 1 upgrade per hive. each hive unlocks a new dropped upgrade and unlocks. marine weaponry is tied to an AA. if the alien team wanted they could focus on it. its not that big of an issue so for the most part its left alone.
  • VeNeMVeNeM Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 928Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1983780:date=Sep 27 2012, 12:35 PM:name=Samus1111111)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Samus1111111 @ Sep 27 2012, 12:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983780"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreed. I'd like to see exo (or at the very least dual gun exo) and A3/W3 on a third chair (and maybe even GL/FT). Then you could tie A2/W2 and JPs to the second chair (and possibly SG).

    I believe that this would make more interesting gameplay since on maps with 5 tech points, marines wouldn't just be happy to sit on 2 (since they have all their upgrades), but there would be constant fighting for a third tech point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    nope

    just exos.

    a2w2 on a 2nd com chair would almost completely break marine gameplay

    this could all be fixed by simple changes to aliens. ranged spores. acid rocket for fade. giving shifts the added ability to +use warp to nearest hive. ranged attacks mean marine cant just sit on a 2nd com chair as alien wouldnt need to get up close and take damage to harass/kill marine teams. plus it forces marines to push out instead of turtling. unlock acid rocket at 3 hives. keep spore damage where its at but make it ranged like it was back in the first betas so itll make the lerk an actual viable unit to use (a BIG problem is marines gets to push hard while most alien players skip lerk and save for fade). an early range spore lerk forces marines to either spend res on armory/health/welders or push to keep the lerk at bay. acid rocket makes jet packers less invincible for the most part (but slow down the attack speed so that its not spamming like crazy). also for late game, xeno needs a dmg increase slightly as right now its not a real threat at all, and the spawn times are silly.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited September 2012
    All throughout the beta aliens generally expanded much faster than marines, it's only in these later builds that this has changed drastically. Though to be fair, it's not so much a case of game mechanics (though they significantly slowed the build rate and lowered the hp of harvesters, this plays a role as well) shifting as it is simply marines having become way more competitive. (better performance and hit reg) (And alien early gameplay falling behind in your average pub game) The alien commander can expand without players, this means you have your 8 - 9 skulks actively engaging marines on the frontline, where as marines need to spread their forces to build on several places of the map.

    Also, putting down a second hive at the start of the game is the biggest possible move in terms of 'expansion'. If successful, aliens hold 2 TPs and a good portion of the map several minutes into the game. Marines can't do this, not even if they rush phase tech.

    Lastly, before the recent changes to hydras and the gorge, you would often have a quick gorge lock up an entire flank of the map with hydras and clogs, this contributed greatly to protecting alien expansion, which is otherwise very vulnerable. But in pub games you don't often see gorges any more the way you used to, and the ones that you do see aren't as effective any more since hydras and gorges are easily focussed down and cost p.res. I.e without proper defences aliens also have a much harder time protecting their vulnerable harvesters and cysts

    So yea, they're still supposed to be more expansionist by design but a combination of gameplay changes, performance and balance changes sure makes that look different these days.

    Anyway, you kind of ignored the rest of my point to pick on a little thing like this?
  • ChickenOfWarChickenOfWar Join Date: 2003-04-09 Member: 15352Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1983792:date=Sep 27 2012, 01:54 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Sep 27 2012, 01:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983792"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->nope

    just exos.

    a2w2 on a 2nd com chair would almost completely break marine gameplay

    this could all be fixed by simple changes to aliens. ranged spores. acid rocket for fade. giving shifts the added ability to +use warp to nearest hive. ranged attacks mean marine cant just sit on a 2nd com chair as alien wouldnt need to get up close and take damage to harass/kill marine teams. plus it forces marines to push out instead of turtling. unlock acid rocket at 3 hives. keep spore damage where its at but make it ranged like it was back in the first betas so itll make the lerk an actual viable unit to use (a BIG problem is marines gets to push hard while most alien players skip lerk and save for fade). an early range spore lerk forces marines to either spend res on armory/health/welders or push to keep the lerk at bay. acid rocket makes jet packers less invincible for the most part (but slow down the attack speed so that its not spamming like crazy). also for late game, xeno needs a dmg increase slightly as right now its not a real threat at all, and the spawn times are silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This isn't NS1 man, spores are fine now (regularly get a high KDR with lerk) and acid rocket will never get into NS2. I can sortof agree with shifts teleporting to the hives but I guess we'll have to wait for an NS1 mod for that.

    I can agree with most people here that marines should rely on their chairs as much as aliens rely on their hives. If the onos cant get stomp till 3rd hive exos shouldnt get dual miniguns till 3rd chair. 3A/3W should be linked to a second chair at least. The marines don't feel the effects of losing a base NEARLY as much as the aliens do. Alien structures are also extremely easy to snipe as well, which is another imbalance.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    <!--quoteo(post=1983792:date=Sep 27 2012, 10:54 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Sep 27 2012, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983792"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this could all be fixed by simple changes to aliens. ranged spores. acid rocket for fade. giving shifts the added ability to +use warp to nearest hive. ranged attacks mean marine cant just sit on a 2nd com chair as alien wouldnt need to get up close and take damage to harass/kill marine teams. plus it forces marines to push out instead of turtling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Or.. you know.. Reduce the insane "anti-structure GL" player damage that is spammed at the entrances of every turtle, reduce weapon recycling to only once, make Xeno and Umbra viable, (by allowing it to stay on the lifeform after walking through it) and make the Onos the siege breaker its supposed to be. Oh and what was already mentioned here: have tech dependent on the amount of CCs you own (A3 on 3rd CC) so that you lose tech when u lose TPs, just like aliens, and are therefore weaker and easier to end if you are turtling. (this game is about map control after all, isn't it?)
    1 or 2 ranged weapons won't be nearly enough to solve that issue.. Nor do i think is it the right path to go down. Fix the highest contributing factors first.
  • VeNeMVeNeM Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 928Members
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1983844:date=Sep 27 2012, 02:48 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 27 2012, 02:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983844"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or.. you know.. Reduce the insane "anti-structure GL" player damage that is spammed at the entrances of every turtle, reduce weapon recycling to only once, make Xeno and Umbra viable, (by allowing it to stay on the lifeform after walking through it) and make the Onos the siege breaker its supposed to be. Oh and what was already mentioned here: have tech dependent on the amount of CCs you own (A3 on 3rd CC) so that you lose tech when u lose TPs, just like aliens, and are therefore weaker and easier to end if you are turtling. (this game is about map control after all, isn't it?)
    1 or 2 ranged weapons won't be nearly enough to solve that issue.. Nor do i think is it the right path to go down. Fix the highest contributing factors first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    But thats the problem thats been running rampant all through dev phase. Trying to make both sides play separate but equal. Tying A3 to a 3rd com chair is tacked on and serves no other purpose other than to close a perceived gap between alien and marine teams. but you fail to realize that moving a/w to 3com means that fades will be even more "op" than they are now because most marine teams will never get that 3rd com chair up unless its late game and they are already winning, or alien concedes too much map early. and then whats the point of the arms lab at that point. its another mechanic slapped on instead of fixing the real underlying problem. alien team is entirely too weak late game, not because the marines are too strong late game either. you can ignore this fact if you want, but currently it takes a combined onos rush and decent fades to finish off a deeply turtled marine team. and even then it can be stopped if they arent focused on one point.

    Im in favor of buffing the onos for late game and buffing the lerk early midgame as right now those are 2 glaring gaps in alien offense. if anything needs to be moved to a 3rd cc it should be exos (even tho i dont even like them and wish they would be removed altogether).
  • male_fatalitiesmale_fatalities ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1983800:date=Sep 28 2012, 04:08 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Sep 28 2012, 04:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983800"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This isn't NS1 man, spores are fine now (regularly get a high KDR with lerk)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    LOL love to see you play against someone who can aim. Flying into a group of marines (worse if they have shotties) will get you killed every time.
  • Samus1111111Samus1111111 Join Date: 2012-08-07 Member: 154930Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1983907:date=Sep 27 2012, 05:16 PM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Sep 27 2012, 05:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->LOL love to see you play against someone who can aim. Flying into a group of marines (worse if they have shotties) will get you killed every time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Lerk is a bit of a support lifeform. You don't want to go in solo or you'll die. You are very effective if you do a fly over of the marines while they are shooting skulks or another alien.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Not much support about it without spore at T1 to be honest.
  • Samus1111111Samus1111111 Join Date: 2012-08-07 Member: 154930Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1983910:date=Sep 27 2012, 05:25 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Sep 27 2012, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983910"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not much support about it without spore at T1 to be honest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I do agree, I preferred spores at T1. Not sure if it was balanced, but I think that it provides more of a second role for the lifeform than spikes do.

    I must say though, I would prefer to be able to bite and spore instead of spike and spore.
  • VolcanoVolcano Join Date: 2011-07-27 Member: 112496Members, Constellation
    if they do change spores back to T1 and people are worrying about balance why not make it do less damage and have the commander research improved spores at T2
  • male_fatalitiesmale_fatalities ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1983908:date=Sep 28 2012, 08:18 AM:name=Samus1111111)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Samus1111111 @ Sep 28 2012, 08:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lerk is a bit of a support lifeform. You don't want to go in solo or you'll die. You are very effective if you do a fly over of the marines while they are shooting skulks or another alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Please... tell me more about the game. Your post enlightened me how to play lerk. You effectiveness goes down as marine skill goes up. It only takes 1 marine to prioritise you over a skulk and you die.
  • Samus1111111Samus1111111 Join Date: 2012-08-07 Member: 154930Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1983925:date=Sep 27 2012, 05:48 PM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Sep 27 2012, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please... tell me more about the game. Your post enlightened me how to play lerk. You effectiveness goes down as marine skill goes up. It only takes 1 marine to prioritise you over a skulk and you die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Maybe if you fly around the room for a while or in a straight line.

    Barring the lucky shotty blast every so often, I have yet to have any real problems with being destroyed as a lerk. Anyways, lerk is getting a bit of a change.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tweaking the Lerk to be a bit slower, tougher and...nastier.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    ^ from their twitter.
  • ChickenOfWarChickenOfWar Join Date: 2003-04-09 Member: 15352Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1983925:date=Sep 27 2012, 06:48 PM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Sep 27 2012, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please... tell me more about the game. Your post enlightened me how to play lerk. You effectiveness goes down as marine skill goes up. It only takes 1 marine to prioritise you over a skulk and you die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Heh I'd like to see em try, Ive gone against the likes of rusty and colt and came out with maybe just a bit of buckshot in my ass =P

    I also always go celerity and carapace to maximize short term survivability. When I go lerk the marines usually end up getting flamethrowers before GLs. After flamers im useless.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited September 2012
    Videos or it never happened.

    Easiest counter to the lerk is still the 3 mines on a door entrance or ceiling, 15 p.res investment for a guaranteed 30 p.res kill. That and shotguns.
    I do hope the triple mine trick will still work versus lerks in 221 :D (Except with carapace)
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES&#33; FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS&#33; Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
    <!--quoteo(post=1983944:date=Sep 28 2012, 09:19 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Sep 28 2012, 09:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Videos or it never happened.

    Easiest counter to the lerk is still the 3 mines on a door entrance or ceiling, 15 p.res investment for a guaranteed 30 p.res kill. That and shotguns.
    I do hope the triple mine trick will still work versus lerks in 221 :D (Except with carapace)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Or 5 tres, i never did get why mines were so dirt cheap for the camandant.
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