<!--quoteo(post=1977210:date=Sep 13 2012, 04:03 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 13 2012, 04:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977210"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People were banned from public servers if they were bunny hopping, they even changed the movement controls between 1.04 and 2.0 in an attempt to eliminate it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, they deliberately made bunnyhopping _better_. If you exceeded the 1.7x speedcap in 1.04 your speed would reset to 1.0x on jumping; in 2.0 it would just be pulled back to 1.7x.
<!--quoteo(post=1977210:date=Sep 13 2012, 04:03 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 13 2012, 04:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977210"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Though it only made it more attractive for people to achieve it through scripting, as it wasn't something you could totally build out of the goldsrc engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not in the engine, it's in the player physics code, which is part of the mod code. I've figured out why and where it occurs and removed it in an afternoon without ill-effect from the HL DM mod code. You think Max and Flayra were to incompetent to take it out? Really?
All you have to do is make sure player speed does not increase in the air acceleration function if the horisontal speed of the player is above 1.0x run speed. That's trivial; you don't even have to understand or change the code that's there, you just have to renormalize the horisontal components of a vector if certain conditions apply. The physics everywhere stay the same and feel the same, you even get air acceleration up to normal run speed. Keeping bunnyhopping was very much a deliberate choice.
(getting rid of wiggle walking, wall-strafing, strafe-jumping etc. is exactly as easy)
Reddragon, i'm not sure what happened in the US but from all the posts I've seen you write of 1.04 I find them nearly all to be false. Not sure what pub friendly servers you were playing on...
<!--quoteo(post=1977230:date=Sep 13 2012, 05:36 PM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Sep 13 2012, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977230"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, they deliberately made bunnyhopping _better_. If you exceeded the 1.7x speedcap in 1.04 your speed would reset to 1.0x on jumping; in 2.0 it would just be pulled back to 1.7x.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You seem much more informed on the matter than I, so I'll defer to you on it. That said, I do distinctly recall a period in NS1 where bunnyhopping became much more difficult to accomplish without scripting. Now, I could full well be wrong, as I never cared to learn the skill myself, nor needed too, and thus never paid much attention to it. If you're sure I'm wrong, then so be it.
<!--quoteo(post=1977230:date=Sep 13 2012, 05:36 PM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Sep 13 2012, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977230"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not in the engine, it's in the player physics code, which is part of the mod code. I've figured out why and where it occurs and removed it in an afternoon without ill-effect from the HL DM mod code. You think Max and Flayra were to incompetent to take it out? Really?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My understanding was that it was an exploit related to the goldsource engine, nothing more. I obviously don't have the indepth experience you do with it, but I'm not entirely sure how or why you went so far as to suggest I was making a statement about the Developers technical skill. I actually quite admire what they're capable of, all the more so because its a field I have very little understanding of.
That said, your credibility becomes questionable when you resort to such conversational tactics to get your point across. I'd recommend trying to tone it down a bit. It would go a long way to making you seem like a credible character.
<!--quoteo(post=1977230:date=Sep 13 2012, 05:36 PM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Sep 13 2012, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977230"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All you have to do is make sure player speed does not increase in the air acceleration function if the horisontal speed of the player is above 1.0x run speed. That's trivial; you don't even have to understand or change the code that's there, you just have to renormalize the horisontal components of a vector if certain conditions apply. The physics everywhere stay the same and feel the same, you even get air acceleration up to normal run speed. Keeping bunnyhopping was very much a deliberate choice.
(getting rid of wiggle walking, wall-strafing, strafe-jumping etc. is exactly as easy)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, you sound like you know what you're talking about, but I'd just like to remind you that I was merely relating my anecdotal experience on the subject, and asking whether or not a mechanic like bunnyhopping is really a necessary feature for "better" movement controls. We all like to go faster and take advantage of game mechanics, but is it necessary? I don't think so.
<!--quoteo(post=1977259:date=Sep 13 2012, 06:49 PM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Sep 13 2012, 06:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977259"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reddragon, i'm not sure what happened in the US but from all the posts I've seen you write of 1.04 I find them nearly all to be false. Not sure what pub friendly servers you were playing on...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure what you find false (nor what can possible be false) about my anecdotes, as I was merely relating my own personal understanding of the matter. I also stated that I've always been neutral on the issue. I never paid attention to bunnyhoping or its like during NS1.0 because I never needed to utilize it.
If you had different experiences, do please share them.
All this aside, I stand by my questioning whether or not such a mechanism really constitutes a needed "feature" for movement to be considered "good". It seems unusual to me.
<!--quoteo(post=1977269:date=Sep 14 2012, 09:14 AM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 14 2012, 09:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure what you find false (nor what can possible be false) about my anecdotes, as I was merely relating my own personal understanding of the matter. I also stated that I've always been neutral on the issue. <b>I never paid attention to bunnyhoping or its like during NS1.0 because I never needed to utilize it</b>.
If you had different experiences, do please share them.
All this aside, I stand by my questioning <b>whether or not such a mechanism really constitutes a needed "feature" for movement to be considered "good". It seems unusual to me</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen you post saying your a competitive player. I can see from your forum join date your an old player. I REALLY struggle to believe that you never bhopped in NS1 or how you disagree with so many top TOP TOP ns1 players that bhop is a requirement for high skill movement. Being how to bhop was a basic requirement in NS1 to even compete at a competitive level...
I'm not really attacking you, but your opinions don't really line up with someone that would be a ns1 comp veteran.
<!--quoteo(post=1977277:date=Sep 13 2012, 06:32 PM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Sep 13 2012, 06:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being how to bhop was a basic requirement in NS1 to even compete at a competitive level...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
incorrect, some ppl did it, some didnt. i knew some very good players that yes, bhopped (decent aim defeats bhop most of the time in ns1 thanks to decent reg) and some that just didnt. you can be a very good player in ns and never bhop.
<!--quoteo(post=1977277:date=Sep 13 2012, 07:32 PM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Sep 13 2012, 07:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen you post saying your a competitive player. I can see from your forum join date your an old player. I REALLY struggle to believe that you never bhopped in NS1 or how you disagree with so many top TOP TOP ns1 players that bhop is a requirement for high skill movement. Being how to bhop was a basic requirement in NS1 to even compete at a competitive level...
I'm not really attacking you, but your opinions don't really line up with someone that would be a ns1 comp veteran.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Imagine my confusion.
Honestly I think a lot of it is hindsight bias. The truth is that I was apart of the Competitive Community when it was still in its infancy. The greatest thing we had was the NSA-I Tournament, and the International Tournament, which was shortly followed by NS moving to CAL. At the time I played in the NSA-I, bunnyhopping was generally frowned upon as a game exploit, granting an unfair, and unintended advantage to either Marines or Aliens.
I think what may have happened is that that sentiment changed in the time after I left the Natural Selection community, and it become common practice, and thus become normalized in the competitive environment. I think the hindsight bias is simply that it always was so, when it actually was not.
As to why or how I never learned to bunny hop, the answer is probably a bit anti climatic. To speak modestly, I was widely regarded as a great Lerk player, and so in Redemption, that was really my only job. I was on the alien team, and my directive was to go Lerk as soon as I could, and just do what I did best. Every now and then I run into someone who saw the videos of me Lerking from the International Tournament. Though I'm not sure if they still exist anymore.
That said, I knew some of the best players in that time, Dean, Mogg, Tae, Firewater, and so on. And while I know Firewater was fairly formidable with bunnyhopping, I do not ever recall him using it in matches, nor did anyone from Redemption. Again, this is all just my memory of things, I'm certainly not suggesting I'm absolutely right about it (it has been a decade after all), and I welcome the opportunity to be corrected, if only to see some old faces come out of the woodwork.
My whole original point though, was that I'm not really convinced that bunnyhopping should really be some sort of required "feature" for movement to be considered "good". Does it take skill? Yes, certainly. But if its exploitive, doesnt that really mean its affords an unfair advantage? And if its built in, isn't it really just an artifical barrier to a higher movement speed than the norm? And if it so, what about it makes it necessary?
Again, this is all just my opinion and such, but I dont see why a marine or a skulk <i>has</i> to move just ever so much faster for the movement to be considered "good". Or why the lack such an advantage makes the movement "bad".
blindJoin Date: 2010-04-17Member: 71437Members, Squad Five Gold
The new "newb-friendly" server flag could fix this easily. Enable bhop and maybe an improved walljump on "pro-servers" and no newbs who cannot master movement techniques will cry about unfair advantages. And everyone is happy.
The argument that bhop takes no skill is crazy. Is it easy to learn? Sure. Does that mean you'll be even remotely good at it? Nope. I consider myself a decent bhopper after a lot of practice and experience, and when you look at top bhoppers, I look like a monkey smashing spacebar as I throw poop on my screen.
Ah this cyclic debate again. Perhaps my biggest concern is the lack of unknown worlds / modding attempts to implement a version of bunnyhop and see how it plays? Perhaps this is an unfortunate consequence of the current engine which struggles to run at 50fps? (too hard to implement? i'm not a coder)
I don't really understand the initial hesitance to implement a function which increases depth & skill ceiling, but is hard for new players to learn - I guess I have faith in people's ability to learn new things.
What would be really refreshing is to see NS2 developers embrace bunnyhopping.. make it an important feature & really exploit the competitive aspect of NS2 through a marketing aspect.
<!--quoteo(post=1977355:date=Sep 13 2012, 10:33 PM:name=shakewell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shakewell @ Sep 13 2012, 10:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977355"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really understand the initial hesitance to implement a function which increases depth & skill ceiling, but is hard for new players to learn - I guess I have faith in people's ability to learn new things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't that what <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SLCGdD_VK0" target="_blank">wall jumping is for skulks</a>? Is it currently not working?
<!--quoteo(post=1977269:date=Sep 13 2012, 06:14 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 13 2012, 06:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That said, I do distinctly recall a period in NS1 where bunnyhopping became much more difficult to accomplish without scripting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was made impossible for marines(unless you hop up a sufficiently steep slope), it was made <b>easier</b> for aliens. I think they also removed some kind of _special script bug that allowed an action to be fired once every frame as long as a button is held and nerfed the ROF of the pistol.
<!--quoteo(post=1977269:date=Sep 13 2012, 06:14 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 13 2012, 06:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My understanding was that it was an exploit related to the goldsource engine, nothing more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an oft repeated lie. I say lie advisedly, there are too many people who keep repeating this falsehood despite knowing better.
Here it is from the HL SDK(i.e. the source for Valve's HLDM "mod", distributed freely by Valve with the intent that you will alter it to make NS, or counter-strike or whatever)
This is the essence of air control, and thus speed-gain from bunnyhopping, from pm_shared.c(obviously download the SDK for the full context):
// Copy movement amounts fmove = pmove->cmd.forwardmove; smove = pmove->cmd.sidemove;
// Zero out z components of movement vectors pmove->forward[2] = 0; pmove->right[2] = 0; // Renormalize VectorNormalize (pmove->forward); VectorNormalize (pmove->right);
// Determine x and y parts of velocity for (i=0 ; i<2 ; i++) { wishvel[i] = pmove->forward[i]*fmove + pmove->right[i]*smove; } // Zero out z part of velocity wishvel[2] = 0;
// Determine maginitude of speed of move VectorCopy (wishvel, wishdir); wishspeed = VectorNormalize(wishdir);
// Clamp to server defined max speed if (wishspeed > pmove->maxspeed) { VectorScale (wishvel, pmove->maxspeed/wishspeed, wishvel); wishspeed = pmove->maxspeed; }
if (pmove->dead) return; if (pmove->waterjumptime) return;
// Cap speed //wishspd = VectorNormalize (pmove->wishveloc);
if (wishspd > 30) wishspd = 30; // Determine veer amount currentspeed = DotProduct (pmove->velocity, wishdir); // See how much to add addspeed = wishspd - currentspeed; // If not adding any, done. if (addspeed <= 0) return; // Determine acceleration speed after acceleration
accelspeed = accel * wishspeed * pmove->frametime * pmove->friction; // Cap it if (accelspeed > addspeed) accelspeed = addspeed;
<!--quoteo(post=1977269:date=Sep 13 2012, 06:14 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 13 2012, 06:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I obviously don't have the indepth experience you do with it, but I'm not entirely sure how or why you went so far as to suggest I was making a statement about the Developers technical skill. That said, your credibility becomes questionable when you resort to such conversational tactics to get your point across. I'd recommend trying to tone it down a bit. It would go a long way to making you seem like a credible character.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've gotten tired of people lying to my face about such a basic, easily checkable fact. My default position has become that people who claim to be a veteran probably do know better
Despite some comments to the contrary, we have weighed in on numerous occasions as to why we have been reluctant to add BHing to the game.
We don't hate BHing, and Charlie has stated that he admires the skill required to pull it off properly. It was purposely not removed from NS1, but that is not the same thing as adding it in on purpose either. It is asking a lot to take a controversial mechanic based around exploiting some unintended holes in the movement code of an old engine ( (that to this day some programmer is still probably embarrassed about overlooking), and actually program it into NS2.
It always looked like a bug, and it was very unintuitive to new players. Yes, people may say the same thing about the current implementation of wall jumping. I don't particularly agree, because the goal of it is for new players to be able to accidentally discover it, by getting feedback of sound effects and a noticeable speed boost when they jump off a surface, ideally leading them to experiment more with it. And players can see skulks bouncing around off of the walls, and can at least make some kind of sense out of it, as opposed to seeing some bouncing skulk moving at insane speeds across an open floor. BHing was next to impossible for a new player to ever discover on their own.
The skulk class is about using all surfaces to their advantage, and that is the intended goal of the wall jumping mechanic - to get skulks off the floor and using all surfaces to their advantage.
BHing is clearly loved by a lot of people, but it is also hated by just as many. It is a very controversial gameplay mechanic, and not something we really want to just add in at this point. We are working on developing the wall jumping mechanic to be, while perhaps not a straight replacement for BH, at least something which can add additional depth and movement speed to the skulk class in a more user friendly manner. I will be the first to admit that we aren't quite there yet with wall jump, and it will continue to get more tweaking before and after release, to get it to a better place.
That said, while BH will probably not be added into the game officially, Charlie has said that he'd be interested in seeing a mod of BH at some point, and I'd be very surprised if someone from the community doesn't make one post release.
I'm glad you've confirmed walljump isn't where you want it to be at the moment. I believe walljump implementation in 216 with a speedcap would be a very easy solution for you guys pre-1.0.
Curiously have you seen the bhop/walljump mechanic in warsow? Hold space + forward to bhop, press jump when you hit a wall. The skill is deciding how to use it / when to use it rather than the ability to bhop/walljump.
I don't think walljumping achieves the goals you have set and it really can't beat out bhop at them either, but thanks for responding. The main reason for this is because you can add pitch sound cues to bhop jumps just like you can with walljumps. The second is that newer players will probably either grasp bhop easier because they already have experience with it or that when they will see a skulk jumping around, they wouldn't be able to tell walljump from bhop and bhop is a lot easier to come by because all it takes is more than a single jump in succession to realise that it gives you speed, not to mention that the basic form of bhopping which is just pressing your jump key without strafing is easy. Skill-based movement can be <b>understood</b> from tutorials and such but it can only be <b>learned</b> by doing. Hence the skill-based aspect and that trying to understand it is what makes it rewarding. Walljump can work like this too, the fix is quite easy. Either make it so you gain some decent speed still from 0% jumps, or remove timing all together and leave it to the player to make it better than that. Air control, planning ahead a bit, knowledge of angles etc. all contribute to how fast you can walljump. There's no need to have something as literal as artificial timing on jumps in place. You could keep it, it's just that in my honest opinion that a lot of problems with walljumping could be solved by removing % timing of jump landing and jumping.
Also, I am against 216 movement even with a speedcap for reasons seen in my video about it: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZq_4y7sBLY&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZq_4y7sBLY&hd=1</a> even with a speed cap at say 14 you will still be able to go from 0 to max speed in the blink of an eye as long as you jump around for x amount of time, essentially as long as you have patience for.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
<!--quoteo(post=1977446:date=Sep 14 2012, 07:07 PM:name=BigD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigD @ Sep 14 2012, 07:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977446"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thank you for <u>not</u> adding this ridiculous mechanic to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1 Especialy not THIS game. in particular In normal shooters, bhoppings no problem, but when you can just bounce over a skulks face and shoot him from behind, it's just not cool. You must remember what game you're playing before you implement things that other, tripple a games happen to have implemented specificaly. sighsickles.
<!--quoteo(post=1977448:date=Sep 14 2012, 04:14 AM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Sep 14 2012, 04:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977448"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1 Especialy not THIS game. in particular In normal shooters, bhoppings no problem, but when you can just bounce over a skulks face and shoot him from behind, it's just not cool. You must remember what game you're playing before you implement things that other, tripple a games happen to have implemented specificaly. sighsickles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> People want bhopping for skulks, not marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1977448:date=Sep 14 2012, 09:14 AM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Sep 14 2012, 09:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977448"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1 Especialy not THIS game. in particular In normal shooters, bhoppings no problem, but when you can just bounce over a skulks face and shoot him from behind, it's just not cool. You must remember what game you're playing before you implement things that other, tripple a games happen to have implemented specificaly. sighsickles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No offence, but do you have any clue what we are talking about here?
The very reason people are talking about the whole thing is because it immensely contributed both to the enjoyability of NS1 and also served as a very important piece in the whole game design. Without some kind of decent replacement NS2 risks running into skill scaling issues and to some extend netcode issues (hitbox desync comes to mind).
We are not talking about marine bhop or some kind of Battlefield bhop abomination. We are first and foremost talking about skulk bhop and possibly extending it to other aliens and possibly implementing some of the elements in it to marine play with heavy limitations. That's how NS1 did it and it had great benefits.
For further reading, see for example <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/" target="_blank">this</a>. There's much more to it why I love the bhop skulk, but I think the article is a good place to start at least.
As a response to Cory's post, I think what most people are debating is that a lot of the things found positive in wallhop could've easily been added to the bhop 2.0 also. Probaby the whole wallhop could've been implemented as a part of the improved bhop system if necessary. Speed gain mechanics and such could be adjusted and highlighted by design and so on.
Meanwhile most of the controversial things that inheritently exist in any kind of bhop, also exist in wallhop. The unrealistic jumping motion is there, the 'overcomplication' of movement is there, the need for some twitchiness is there too. I think the biggest bullet wallhop has dodged is that it isn't called bhop.
As for wallhop being not quite there yet, I'd really like to see some talk on when and how it is going to get there. To me it seems like a very essential part of alien gameplay in the long run, both for the depth and skill scalability of the alien gameplay.
I don't liked bhop, because it focused the skulk on the ground. Having them on walls and ceilings simply looks better for me. I don't like wallhop, because I have seen some higher skilled players getting practically un-hitable by exploiting this. They can remain speeds that look like a speed-hack in battle. And are so fast that they teleport even with 40fps over my screen.
A movement skill you can master is fine, but it shouldn't give already very good players such an great advantage. That just increases the skill-gap and skill-stacked matches.
What I really would like, is a little speed-buff while moving on the ceiling or on walls and a short (not persistent) speed buff while jumping of a wall or ceiling. This stacking and persistence of the speed-buff is what I don't like.
<!--quoteo(post=1977502:date=Sep 14 2012, 10:51 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Sep 14 2012, 10:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As a response to Cory's post, I think what most people are debating is that a lot of the things found positive in wallhop could've easily been added to the bhop 2.0 also. Probaby the whole wallhop could've been implemented as a part of the improved bhop system if necessary. Speed gain mechanics and such could be adjusted and highlighted by design and so on.
Meanwhile most of the controversial things that inheritently exist in any kind of bhop, also exist in wallhop. The unrealistic jumping motion is there, the 'overcomplication' of movement is there, the need for some twitchiness is there too. I think the biggest bullet wallhop has dodged is that it isn't called bhop.
As for wallhop being not quite there yet, I'd really like to see some talk on when and how it is going to get there. To me it seems like a very essential part of alien gameplay in the long run, both for the depth and skill scalability of the alien gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Neither this or the previous post touch on the key facet pointed out Cory that they wanted to get skulks off the ground and onto other surfaces more.
The principal of adding a benefit for a skill investment is what is desired, but keeping skulks on the ground lacks innovation. We can always go to bhop if all else fails. We know it works, why not try some other ideas first?
And before anyone jumps on the "but we've tried it and it doesn't work" - yes it needs fixing. No, it hasn't been trialled enough.
<!--quoteo(post=1977534:date=Sep 14 2012, 11:34 AM:name=alphz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (alphz @ Sep 14 2012, 11:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977534"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Neither this or the previous post touch on the key facet pointed out Cory that they wanted to get skulks off the ground and onto other surfaces more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I meant that anything wallhop does to encourage the use of walls can also be included in bhop. Having the wallhop there to add versatility to the skulk movement is awesome. Being limited to the use of walls and wallhop isn't so much.
Skulks are extremely vulnerable in the open ground regardless of whether they can actually speed up there. With good wall navigation methods the walls are already a huge boon for skulk, no matter whether they can actually combine it with the versatility of bhop.
For example here you've got a clip that could included some wallhopping and such, but it also makes use of the fact that you don't need to mix in walls just because the game rules say so.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We know it works, why not try some other ideas first?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good luck coming up with ideas. As it has been said, it's a really unique system that hasn't really been matched. By all means reinvent the wheel if you want to, but any dead end solution is going to drain valuable development and testing time.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And before anyone jumps on the "but we've tried it and it doesn't work" - yes it needs fixing. No, it hasn't been trialled enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well... They better start trialing pretty damn soonish because the whole game is going to get judged as a release within a month. Certainly you can make changes after that also, but any incomplete system is going to look pretty ugly in reviews.
Edit: And as usual, I absolutely don't want to dictate what goes into the game, that's up to some other people. What I'm saying is that there's a lot that can potentially go wrong unless this is handled with care.
I've created a mod to fix what I see a the problems with walljump. Take a look, see what you think. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121074" target="_blank">Link</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1977417:date=Sep 14 2012, 02:05 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Sep 14 2012, 02:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977417"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Despite some comments to the contrary, we have weighed in on numerous occasions as to why we have been reluctant to add BHing to the game.
We don't hate BHing, and Charlie has stated that he admires the skill required to pull it off properly. It was purposely not removed from NS1, but that is not the same thing as adding it in on purpose either. It is asking a lot to take a controversial mechanic based around exploiting some unintended holes in the movement code of an old engine ( (that to this day some programmer is still probably embarrassed about overlooking), and actually program it into NS2.
It always looked like a bug, and it was very unintuitive to new players. Yes, people may say the same thing about the current implementation of wall jumping. I don't particularly agree, because the goal of it is for new players to be able to accidentally discover it, by getting feedback of sound effects and a noticeable speed boost when they jump off a surface, ideally leading them to experiment more with it. And players can see skulks bouncing around off of the walls, and can at least make some kind of sense out of it, as opposed to seeing some bouncing skulk moving at insane speeds across an open floor. BHing was next to impossible for a new player to ever discover on their own.
The skulk class is about using all surfaces to their advantage, and that is the intended goal of the wall jumping mechanic - to get skulks off the floor and using all surfaces to their advantage.
BHing is clearly loved by a lot of people, but it is also hated by just as many. It is a very controversial gameplay mechanic, and not something we really want to just add in at this point. We are working on developing the wall jumping mechanic to be, while perhaps not a straight replacement for BH, at least something which can add additional depth and movement speed to the skulk class in a more user friendly manner. I will be the first to admit that we aren't quite there yet with wall jump, and it will continue to get more tweaking before and after release, to get it to a better place.
That said, while BH will probably not be added into the game officially, Charlie has said that he'd be interested in seeing a mod of BH at some point, and I'd be very surprised if someone from the community doesn't make one post release.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I greatly appreciate the clarification Cory, and the controversial aspect of such movement mechanics were really what I was getting at.
Personally I'm not entirely sold on the necessity of wall jumping as a movement mechanic, but it does feel like less of an exploit, and more of a skill than Bunny Hopping, to me at least, because its not something you can all the time. It has limitations, and it has a ceiling. Again, its a subject I'm rather neutral on. I'm certainly learning how to wall jump better every day, but I would not miss it if it was taken away.
To Soylent_green:
I also appreciate your clarification on the subject, but I was only trying to relate to you <i>my</i> individual understanding of the mechanic and my understanding of its acceptability in Competitive play a decade ago. I gave you nothing more than my opinion, and never suggested I was even certain of it.
I'm not contesting that you're right, but also consider that some of us don't have any detailed understanding of game engines or how their mechanics are represented in code. You say its easy to verify, but I don't even know what I'm looking at when you post that code, nor would I know now, or have known then, how to find it.
That said, I think a decade ago we had every right to call bunny hopping exploitative, as it was a method that took advantage of the game mechanics to grant an unintended benefit. Did that change later on? It certainly seems that it did. But I only ever suggested that I recall things being different early on.
I did not lie to you, nor did I spread a falsehood.
<!--quoteo(post=1977404:date=Sep 14 2012, 01:25 AM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Sep 14 2012, 01:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977404"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is an oft repeated lie. I say lie advisedly, there are too many people who keep repeating this falsehood despite knowing better. Here it is from the HL SDK(i.e. the source for Valve's HLDM "mod", distributed freely by Valve with the intent that you will alter it to make NS, or counter-strike or whatever)
[code snipped]
I've gotten tired of people lying to my face about such a basic, easily checkable fact. My default position has become that people who claim to be a veteran probably do know better<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
technically it might not be considered in the 'engine', but the movement code source was provided by valve. so, i dont think any misunderstanding rises to the level of lie or even falsehood. if valve's code was used unmodified, what would happen?
No matter though.. i'm in the bh camp myself, but if walljump can get to the point of enabling fun, usable movement stunts and combat advantage with practice then that'll work.
Comments
No, they deliberately made bunnyhopping _better_. If you exceeded the 1.7x speedcap in 1.04 your speed would reset to 1.0x on jumping; in 2.0 it would just be pulled back to 1.7x.
<!--quoteo(post=1977210:date=Sep 13 2012, 04:03 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 13 2012, 04:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977210"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Though it only made it more attractive for people to achieve it through scripting, as it wasn't something you could totally build out of the goldsrc engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not in the engine, it's in the player physics code, which is part of the mod code. I've figured out why and where it occurs and removed it in an afternoon without ill-effect from the HL DM mod code. You think Max and Flayra were to incompetent to take it out? Really?
All you have to do is make sure player speed does not increase in the air acceleration function if the horisontal speed of the player is above 1.0x run speed. That's trivial; you don't even have to understand or change the code that's there, you just have to renormalize the horisontal components of a vector if certain conditions apply. The physics everywhere stay the same and feel the same, you even get air acceleration up to normal run speed. Keeping bunnyhopping was very much a deliberate choice.
(getting rid of wiggle walking, wall-strafing, strafe-jumping etc. is exactly as easy)
You seem much more informed on the matter than I, so I'll defer to you on it. That said, I do distinctly recall a period in NS1 where bunnyhopping became much more difficult to accomplish without scripting. Now, I could full well be wrong, as I never cared to learn the skill myself, nor needed too, and thus never paid much attention to it. If you're sure I'm wrong, then so be it.
<!--quoteo(post=1977230:date=Sep 13 2012, 05:36 PM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Sep 13 2012, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977230"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not in the engine, it's in the player physics code, which is part of the mod code. I've figured out why and where it occurs and removed it in an afternoon without ill-effect from the HL DM mod code. You think Max and Flayra were to incompetent to take it out? Really?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My understanding was that it was an exploit related to the goldsource engine, nothing more. I obviously don't have the indepth experience you do with it, but I'm not entirely sure how or why you went so far as to suggest I was making a statement about the Developers technical skill. I actually quite admire what they're capable of, all the more so because its a field I have very little understanding of.
That said, your credibility becomes questionable when you resort to such conversational tactics to get your point across. I'd recommend trying to tone it down a bit. It would go a long way to making you seem like a credible character.
<!--quoteo(post=1977230:date=Sep 13 2012, 05:36 PM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Sep 13 2012, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977230"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All you have to do is make sure player speed does not increase in the air acceleration function if the horisontal speed of the player is above 1.0x run speed. That's trivial; you don't even have to understand or change the code that's there, you just have to renormalize the horisontal components of a vector if certain conditions apply. The physics everywhere stay the same and feel the same, you even get air acceleration up to normal run speed. Keeping bunnyhopping was very much a deliberate choice.
(getting rid of wiggle walking, wall-strafing, strafe-jumping etc. is exactly as easy)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, you sound like you know what you're talking about, but I'd just like to remind you that I was merely relating my anecdotal experience on the subject, and asking whether or not a mechanic like bunnyhopping is really a necessary feature for "better" movement controls. We all like to go faster and take advantage of game mechanics, but is it necessary? I don't think so.
<!--quoteo(post=1977259:date=Sep 13 2012, 06:49 PM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Sep 13 2012, 06:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977259"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reddragon, i'm not sure what happened in the US but from all the posts I've seen you write of 1.04 I find them nearly all to be false. Not sure what pub friendly servers you were playing on...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure what you find false (nor what can possible be false) about my anecdotes, as I was merely relating my own personal understanding of the matter. I also stated that I've always been neutral on the issue. I never paid attention to bunnyhoping or its like during NS1.0 because I never needed to utilize it.
If you had different experiences, do please share them.
All this aside, I stand by my questioning whether or not such a mechanism really constitutes a needed "feature" for movement to be considered "good". It seems unusual to me.
If you had different experiences, do please share them.
All this aside, I stand by my questioning <b>whether or not such a mechanism really constitutes a needed "feature" for movement to be considered "good". It seems unusual to me</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen you post saying your a competitive player. I can see from your forum join date your an old player. I REALLY struggle to believe that you never bhopped in NS1 or how you disagree with so many top TOP TOP ns1 players that bhop is a requirement for high skill movement. Being how to bhop was a basic requirement in NS1 to even compete at a competitive level...
I'm not really attacking you, but your opinions don't really line up with someone that would be a ns1 comp veteran.
incorrect, some ppl did it, some didnt. i knew some very good players that yes, bhopped (decent aim defeats bhop most of the time in ns1 thanks to decent reg) and some that just didnt. you can be a very good player in ns and never bhop.
Give me an example of a very good player that didn't use bhop...
I'm not really attacking you, but your opinions don't really line up with someone that would be a ns1 comp veteran.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Imagine my confusion.
Honestly I think a lot of it is hindsight bias. The truth is that I was apart of the Competitive Community when it was still in its infancy. The greatest thing we had was the NSA-I Tournament, and the International Tournament, which was shortly followed by NS moving to CAL. At the time I played in the NSA-I, bunnyhopping was generally frowned upon as a game exploit, granting an unfair, and unintended advantage to either Marines or Aliens.
I think what may have happened is that that sentiment changed in the time after I left the Natural Selection community, and it become common practice, and thus become normalized in the competitive environment. I think the hindsight bias is simply that it always was so, when it actually was not.
As to why or how I never learned to bunny hop, the answer is probably a bit anti climatic. To speak modestly, I was widely regarded as a great Lerk player, and so in Redemption, that was really my only job. I was on the alien team, and my directive was to go Lerk as soon as I could, and just do what I did best. Every now and then I run into someone who saw the videos of me Lerking from the International Tournament. Though I'm not sure if they still exist anymore.
That said, I knew some of the best players in that time, Dean, Mogg, Tae, Firewater, and so on. And while I know Firewater was fairly formidable with bunnyhopping, I do not ever recall him using it in matches, nor did anyone from Redemption. Again, this is all just my memory of things, I'm certainly not suggesting I'm absolutely right about it (it has been a decade after all), and I welcome the opportunity to be corrected, if only to see some old faces come out of the woodwork.
My whole original point though, was that I'm not really convinced that bunnyhopping should really be some sort of required "feature" for movement to be considered "good". Does it take skill? Yes, certainly. But if its exploitive, doesnt that really mean its affords an unfair advantage? And if its built in, isn't it really just an artifical barrier to a higher movement speed than the norm? And if it so, what about it makes it necessary?
Again, this is all just my opinion and such, but I dont see why a marine or a skulk <i>has</i> to move just ever so much faster for the movement to be considered "good". Or why the lack such an advantage makes the movement "bad".
I don't really understand the initial hesitance to implement a function which increases depth & skill ceiling, but is hard for new players to learn - I guess I have faith in people's ability to learn new things.
What would be really refreshing is to see NS2 developers embrace bunnyhopping.. make it an important feature & really exploit the competitive aspect of NS2 through a marketing aspect.
Isn't that what <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SLCGdD_VK0" target="_blank">wall jumping is for skulks</a>? Is it currently not working?
It was made impossible for marines(unless you hop up a sufficiently steep slope), it was made <b>easier</b> for aliens. I think they also removed some kind of _special script bug that allowed an action to be fired once every frame as long as a button is held and nerfed the ROF of the pistol.
<!--quoteo(post=1977269:date=Sep 13 2012, 06:14 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 13 2012, 06:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My understanding was that it was an exploit related to the goldsource engine, nothing more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an oft repeated lie. I say lie advisedly, there are too many people who keep repeating this falsehood despite knowing better.
Here it is from the HL SDK(i.e. the source for Valve's HLDM "mod", distributed freely by Valve with the intent that you will alter it to make NS, or counter-strike or whatever)
This is the essence of air control, and thus speed-gain from bunnyhopping, from pm_shared.c(obviously download the SDK for the full context):
void PM_AirMove (void)
{
int i;
vec3_t wishvel;
float fmove, smove;
vec3_t wishdir;
float wishspeed;
// Copy movement amounts
fmove = pmove->cmd.forwardmove;
smove = pmove->cmd.sidemove;
// Zero out z components of movement vectors
pmove->forward[2] = 0;
pmove->right[2] = 0;
// Renormalize
VectorNormalize (pmove->forward);
VectorNormalize (pmove->right);
// Determine x and y parts of velocity
for (i=0 ; i<2 ; i++)
{
wishvel[i] = pmove->forward[i]*fmove + pmove->right[i]*smove;
}
// Zero out z part of velocity
wishvel[2] = 0;
// Determine maginitude of speed of move
VectorCopy (wishvel, wishdir);
wishspeed = VectorNormalize(wishdir);
// Clamp to server defined max speed
if (wishspeed > pmove->maxspeed)
{
VectorScale (wishvel, pmove->maxspeed/wishspeed, wishvel);
wishspeed = pmove->maxspeed;
}
PM_AirAccelerate (wishdir, wishspeed, pmove->movevars->airaccelerate);
// Add in any base velocity to the current velocity.
VectorAdd (pmove->velocity, pmove->basevelocity, pmove->velocity );
PM_FlyMove ();
}
void PM_AirAccelerate (vec3_t wishdir, float wishspeed, float accel)
{
int i;
float addspeed, accelspeed, currentspeed, wishspd = wishspeed;
if (pmove->dead)
return;
if (pmove->waterjumptime)
return;
// Cap speed
//wishspd = VectorNormalize (pmove->wishveloc);
if (wishspd > 30)
wishspd = 30;
// Determine veer amount
currentspeed = DotProduct (pmove->velocity, wishdir);
// See how much to add
addspeed = wishspd - currentspeed;
// If not adding any, done.
if (addspeed <= 0)
return;
// Determine acceleration speed after acceleration
accelspeed = accel * wishspeed * pmove->frametime * pmove->friction;
// Cap it
if (accelspeed > addspeed)
accelspeed = addspeed;
// Adjust pmove vel.
for (i=0 ; i<3 ; i++)
{
pmove->velocity[i] += accelspeed*wishdir[i];
}
}
<!--quoteo(post=1977269:date=Sep 13 2012, 06:14 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 13 2012, 06:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I obviously don't have the indepth experience you do with it, but I'm not entirely sure how or why you went so far as to suggest I was making a statement about the Developers technical skill. That said, your credibility becomes questionable when you resort to such conversational tactics to get your point across. I'd recommend trying to tone it down a bit. It would go a long way to making you seem like a credible character.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've gotten tired of people lying to my face about such a basic, easily checkable fact. My default position has become that people who claim to be a veteran probably do know better
We don't hate BHing, and Charlie has stated that he admires the skill required to pull it off properly. It was purposely not removed from NS1, but that is not the same thing as adding it in on purpose either. It is asking a lot to take a controversial mechanic based around exploiting some unintended holes in the movement code of an old engine ( (that to this day some programmer is still probably embarrassed about overlooking), and actually program it into NS2.
It always looked like a bug, and it was very unintuitive to new players. Yes, people may say the same thing about the current implementation of wall jumping. I don't particularly agree, because the goal of it is for new players to be able to accidentally discover it, by getting feedback of sound effects and a noticeable speed boost when they jump off a surface, ideally leading them to experiment more with it. And players can see skulks bouncing around off of the walls, and can at least make some kind of sense out of it, as opposed to seeing some bouncing skulk moving at insane speeds across an open floor. BHing was next to impossible for a new player to ever discover on their own.
The skulk class is about using all surfaces to their advantage, and that is the intended goal of the wall jumping mechanic - to get skulks off the floor and using all surfaces to their advantage.
BHing is clearly loved by a lot of people, but it is also hated by just as many. It is a very controversial gameplay mechanic, and not something we really want to just add in at this point. We are working on developing the wall jumping mechanic to be, while perhaps not a straight replacement for BH, at least something which can add additional depth and movement speed to the skulk class in a more user friendly manner. I will be the first to admit that we aren't quite there yet with wall jump, and it will continue to get more tweaking before and after release, to get it to a better place.
That said, while BH will probably not be added into the game officially, Charlie has said that he'd be interested in seeing a mod of BH at some point, and I'd be very surprised if someone from the community doesn't make one post release.
--Cory
I'm glad you've confirmed walljump isn't where you want it to be at the moment. I believe walljump implementation in 216 with a speedcap would be a very easy solution for you guys pre-1.0.
Curiously have you seen the bhop/walljump mechanic in warsow? Hold space + forward to bhop, press jump when you hit a wall. The skill is deciding how to use it / when to use it rather than the ability to bhop/walljump.
I've linked a video below...
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y6t07VID4w" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y6t07VID4w</a>
I do hope you see this post, it would make movement an easy skill to pickup but hard to master. Ultimately what all us die-hard ns1 vets want.
Also, I am against 216 movement even with a speedcap for reasons seen in my video about it: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZq_4y7sBLY&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZq_4y7sBLY&hd=1</a> even with a speed cap at say 14 you will still be able to go from 0 to max speed in the blink of an eye as long as you jump around for x amount of time, essentially as long as you have patience for.
+1
Especialy not THIS game. in particular
In normal shooters, bhoppings no problem, but when you can just bounce over a skulks face and shoot him from behind, it's just not cool. You must remember what game you're playing before you implement things that other, tripple a games happen to have implemented specificaly. sighsickles.
Especialy not THIS game. in particular
In normal shooters, bhoppings no problem, but when you can just bounce over a skulks face and shoot him from behind, it's just not cool. You must remember what game you're playing before you implement things that other, tripple a games happen to have implemented specificaly. sighsickles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People want bhopping for skulks, not marines.
Especialy not THIS game. in particular
In normal shooters, bhoppings no problem, but when you can just bounce over a skulks face and shoot him from behind, it's just not cool. You must remember what game you're playing before you implement things that other, tripple a games happen to have implemented specificaly. sighsickles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No offence, but do you have any clue what we are talking about here?
The very reason people are talking about the whole thing is because it immensely contributed both to the enjoyability of NS1 and also served as a very important piece in the whole game design. Without some kind of decent replacement NS2 risks running into skill scaling issues and to some extend netcode issues (hitbox desync comes to mind).
We are not talking about marine bhop or some kind of Battlefield bhop abomination. We are first and foremost talking about skulk bhop and possibly extending it to other aliens and possibly implementing some of the elements in it to marine play with heavy limitations. That's how NS1 did it and it had great benefits.
For further reading, see for example <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/" target="_blank">this</a>. There's much more to it why I love the bhop skulk, but I think the article is a good place to start at least.
Meanwhile most of the controversial things that inheritently exist in any kind of bhop, also exist in wallhop. The unrealistic jumping motion is there, the 'overcomplication' of movement is there, the need for some twitchiness is there too. I think the biggest bullet wallhop has dodged is that it isn't called bhop.
As for wallhop being not quite there yet, I'd really like to see some talk on when and how it is going to get there. To me it seems like a very essential part of alien gameplay in the long run, both for the depth and skill scalability of the alien gameplay.
I don't like wallhop, because I have seen some higher skilled players getting practically un-hitable by exploiting this. They can remain speeds that look like a speed-hack in battle. And are so fast that they teleport even with 40fps over my screen.
A movement skill you can master is fine, but it shouldn't give already very good players such an great advantage. That just increases the skill-gap and skill-stacked matches.
What I really would like, is a little speed-buff while moving on the ceiling or on walls and a short (not persistent) speed buff while jumping of a wall or ceiling. This stacking and persistence of the speed-buff is what I don't like.
Meanwhile most of the controversial things that inheritently exist in any kind of bhop, also exist in wallhop. The unrealistic jumping motion is there, the 'overcomplication' of movement is there, the need for some twitchiness is there too. I think the biggest bullet wallhop has dodged is that it isn't called bhop.
As for wallhop being not quite there yet, I'd really like to see some talk on when and how it is going to get there. To me it seems like a very essential part of alien gameplay in the long run, both for the depth and skill scalability of the alien gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Neither this or the previous post touch on the key facet pointed out Cory that they wanted to get skulks off the ground and onto other surfaces more.
The principal of adding a benefit for a skill investment is what is desired, but keeping skulks on the ground lacks innovation. We can always go to bhop if all else fails. We know it works, why not try some other ideas first?
And before anyone jumps on the "but we've tried it and it doesn't work" - yes it needs fixing. No, it hasn't been trialled enough.
I meant that anything wallhop does to encourage the use of walls can also be included in bhop. Having the wallhop there to add versatility to the skulk movement is awesome. Being limited to the use of walls and wallhop isn't so much.
Skulks are extremely vulnerable in the open ground regardless of whether they can actually speed up there. With good wall navigation methods the walls are already a huge boon for skulk, no matter whether they can actually combine it with the versatility of bhop.
For example here you've got a clip that could included some wallhopping and such, but it also makes use of the fact that you don't need to mix in walls just because the game rules say so.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/QWj2mc9u5vc"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/QWj2mc9u5vc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We know it works, why not try some other ideas first?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good luck coming up with ideas. As it has been said, it's a really unique system that hasn't really been matched. By all means reinvent the wheel if you want to, but any dead end solution is going to drain valuable development and testing time.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And before anyone jumps on the "but we've tried it and it doesn't work" - yes it needs fixing. No, it hasn't been trialled enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well... They better start trialing pretty damn soonish because the whole game is going to get judged as a release within a month. Certainly you can make changes after that also, but any incomplete system is going to look pretty ugly in reviews.
Edit: And as usual, I absolutely don't want to dictate what goes into the game, that's up to some other people. What I'm saying is that there's a lot that can potentially go wrong unless this is handled with care.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121074" target="_blank">Link</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1HowpVX-hU&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1HowpVX-hU&hd=1</a>
He brings up pretty much every point.
We don't hate BHing, and Charlie has stated that he admires the skill required to pull it off properly. It was purposely not removed from NS1, but that is not the same thing as adding it in on purpose either. It is asking a lot to take a controversial mechanic based around exploiting some unintended holes in the movement code of an old engine ( (that to this day some programmer is still probably embarrassed about overlooking), and actually program it into NS2.
It always looked like a bug, and it was very unintuitive to new players. Yes, people may say the same thing about the current implementation of wall jumping. I don't particularly agree, because the goal of it is for new players to be able to accidentally discover it, by getting feedback of sound effects and a noticeable speed boost when they jump off a surface, ideally leading them to experiment more with it. And players can see skulks bouncing around off of the walls, and can at least make some kind of sense out of it, as opposed to seeing some bouncing skulk moving at insane speeds across an open floor. BHing was next to impossible for a new player to ever discover on their own.
The skulk class is about using all surfaces to their advantage, and that is the intended goal of the wall jumping mechanic - to get skulks off the floor and using all surfaces to their advantage.
BHing is clearly loved by a lot of people, but it is also hated by just as many. It is a very controversial gameplay mechanic, and not something we really want to just add in at this point. We are working on developing the wall jumping mechanic to be, while perhaps not a straight replacement for BH, at least something which can add additional depth and movement speed to the skulk class in a more user friendly manner. I will be the first to admit that we aren't quite there yet with wall jump, and it will continue to get more tweaking before and after release, to get it to a better place.
That said, while BH will probably not be added into the game officially, Charlie has said that he'd be interested in seeing a mod of BH at some point, and I'd be very surprised if someone from the community doesn't make one post release.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I greatly appreciate the clarification Cory, and the controversial aspect of such movement mechanics were really what I was getting at.
Personally I'm not entirely sold on the necessity of wall jumping as a movement mechanic, but it does feel like less of an exploit, and more of a skill than Bunny Hopping, to me at least, because its not something you can all the time. It has limitations, and it has a ceiling. Again, its a subject I'm rather neutral on. I'm certainly learning how to wall jump better every day, but I would not miss it if it was taken away.
To Soylent_green:
I also appreciate your clarification on the subject, but I was only trying to relate to you <i>my</i> individual understanding of the mechanic and my understanding of its acceptability in Competitive play a decade ago. I gave you nothing more than my opinion, and never suggested I was even certain of it.
I'm not contesting that you're right, but also consider that some of us don't have any detailed understanding of game engines or how their mechanics are represented in code. You say its easy to verify, but I don't even know what I'm looking at when you post that code, nor would I know now, or have known then, how to find it.
That said, I think a decade ago we had every right to call bunny hopping exploitative, as it was a method that took advantage of the game mechanics to grant an unintended benefit. Did that change later on? It certainly seems that it did. But I only ever suggested that I recall things being different early on.
I did not lie to you, nor did I spread a falsehood.
:-/
Here it is from the HL SDK(i.e. the source for Valve's HLDM "mod", distributed freely by Valve with the intent that you will alter it to make NS, or counter-strike or whatever)
[code snipped]
I've gotten tired of people lying to my face about such a basic, easily checkable fact. My default position has become that people who claim to be a veteran probably do know better<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
technically it might not be considered in the 'engine', but the movement code source was provided by valve. so, i dont think any misunderstanding rises to the level of lie or even falsehood. if valve's code was used unmodified, what would happen?
No matter though.. i'm in the bh camp myself, but if walljump can get to the point of enabling fun, usable movement stunts and combat advantage with practice then that'll work.