<!--quoteo(post=1976478:date=Sep 12 2012, 12:59 PM:name=Dusk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dusk @ Sep 12 2012, 12:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976478"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's time to get over your glory days and learn to wall jump. B hopping is dead and gone and even CS GO got rid of it. I think UWE has been more than fair by adding wall hopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think many of the people in this thread have already learned wall hopping, and are speaking as people who have learned both systems, and find bhop better.
Wall jumping is far from useless in this build. I can routinely get to 10+ speeds as a vanilla skulk and 12+ speeds as a celerity skulk. The caps are slightly under 12 for vanilla skulk and slightly under 14 for celerity skulk. There's no way that bursts of +50% speed can be considered useless. It's probably as fair as it has ever been between performing the wall jump and shooting the wall jump.
<!--quoteo(post=1976444:date=Sep 12 2012, 02:53 PM:name=KaptajnKLO)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KaptajnKLO @ Sep 12 2012, 02:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You gain a bit of an increase in speed, how is that useless?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1976455:date=Sep 12 2012, 08:05 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Sep 12 2012, 08:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976455"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The argument is that bunny hop can just "start out of nowhere" and that walljump makes more sense because it "starts on a wall and doesn't go on indefinitely."
The problems bunnyhop had are miniscule, walljump is far more flawed in comparison. It rarely works technically speaking, it ONLY works when walls are around, it feels more annoying fighting a skulk bouncing around on walls than a skulk who moves slightly faster until his momentum-generation is halted, wall-jumping is skill-less and spammy, etc<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, wallhop fails almost entirely at addressing the reasons people gave for disliking bunnyhop and has introduced a bunch of new ones to boot.
In the mean time, implement Yuuki's suggestion of continuous fall-offs either side of the golden number and also make it so that a skulk is actually possible to predict (a short snap of the mouse as you're jumping completely changes the trajectory of the skulk with practically zero visual feedback for marines which sucks).
walljumping is still pretty useful in combat. Much more than bunnyhopping would be if added to NS2. Also with Cele and Leap jumping, add in some wall jumping, and the marines have no chance of hitting you.
1. wall jumping is currently useless 2. bhop was removed for being unintuitive / hard to learn 3. walljump is unintuitive / hard to learn 4. If the dev's had to play against a walljumper in 216/217 that could go speed 15-20 they would realise how ###### retarded it is. 5. Acceleration cap on wall jump combo'd with bhop would be so SICK!!! (warsow style)
This whole debate would have been settled LONG ago if UWE would have just explained why they dont want BHop. It was always a "we just dont want it" and then turned into "No, here is walljump". I have always loved the fluidity of NS1 movement when in the hands of a pro. It was a blast to watch and try to emulate.
Hit reg is improving and i find myself not able to close the distance fast enough (as an average player) to get close to my intended target. As marines it is almost too easy now to kill the huge, slow skulk where Cara now isnt a big deal and celerity is a joke compared to what it was.
If you are new to this argument on either side of the fence, just know it has been being rehashed for no joke... YEARS. If you think everyone has accepted walljump because you dont see many posts here defending BHop it is because of what i mentioned above and UWE brow beating us into accepting this failure of a movement system. God forbid they take Fana's approach and blend the two. Compromise and all that...
My two biggest complaints with walljump over bhop is simply this:
1. Walls are not everywhere, floors are.
2. Floors generally have less geometry per room than walls. Floors generally have a clear path or at least one you can see with little effort, walls no so much.
<!--quoteo(post=1976403:date=Sep 12 2012, 06:08 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 12 2012, 06:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976403"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you don't like it, don't read it. As long as people keep walking in here expressing their extreme ignorance as if it were a fact, there will be people to tell them that things work differently around here. It's usually fairly obvious which threads are started by people talking out of their bums, so if you hate hearing this so much you should just steer clear of them.
The whole forum doesn't need to change itself to suit your preferences, and if you really think it's such a terrible thing, then you should take a stand and make a thread listing your reasons instead of just complaining about it and expecting that to work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well he was here before most people here if you would just happen to look at his join date. 2004. So hes obviously not new here so he didnt just 'walk in' with 'extream igrorance'. Also this is a forum to express views on the game no matter how new or old. So to say 'you must be new here' after he's stated a very valid point is quite ignorant in its self. We should be having a good discussion about the topic at hand not criticising them. Good day sir.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1976559:date=Sep 12 2012, 06:43 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Sep 12 2012, 06:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This whole debate would have been settled LONG ago if UWE would have just explained why they dont want BHop. It was always a "we just dont want it" and then turned into "No, here is walljump". I have always loved the fluidity of NS1 movement when in the hands of a pro. It was a blast to watch and try to emulate.
Hit reg is improving and i find myself not able to close the distance fast enough (as an average player) to get close to my intended target. As marines it is almost too easy now to kill the huge, slow skulk where Cara now isnt a big deal and celerity is a joke compared to what it was.
If you are new to this argument on either side of the fence, just know it has been being rehashed for no joke... YEARS. If you think everyone has accepted walljump because you dont see many posts here defending BHop it is because of what i mentioned above and UWE brow beating us into accepting this failure of a movement system. God forbid they take Fana's approach and blend the two. Compromise and all that...
My two biggest complaints with walljump over bhop is simply this:
1. Walls are not everywhere, floors are.
2. Floors generally have less geometry per room than walls. Floors generally have a clear path or at least one you can see with little effort, walls no so much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think there's another feature that continues to be something people want, in quite the same way people want bunnyhop. There's that idea, that hope that it can create the kind of seperation in skill between smart alien teams and smart alien teams that can also do the typical reflex-gaming stuff well.
Right now as a skulk your job is to not miss any bites and play conservatively and not die. That's fine, but is it enough to make people want to play this class for years to come? Not by a long shot, imo. Bunnyhopping, if implemented correctly, could really deepen the way people perceive the maps, the way players play, and the way the game feels.
<!--quoteo(post=1976597:date=Sep 12 2012, 07:31 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Sep 12 2012, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think there's another feature that continues to be something people want, in quite the same way people want bunnyhop. There's that idea, that hope that it can create the kind of seperation in skill between smart alien teams and smart alien teams that can also do the typical reflex-gaming stuff well.
Right now as a skulk your job is to not miss any bites and play conservatively and not die. That's fine, but it's also quite lifeless. A nice way to help the class out would be to give it what it really has needed all along, which was that extra level of skill potential to make the class deeper and to increase the amount of times any sane, reasonable person would want to really play that same character over and over again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
b-b-b-but it was originally an accident in the quake engine before like 100 other games more successful than ns2 deliberately implemented it!
I wasn't born knowing how to do it! SCARYYYYYYY
<!--quoteo(post=1976559:date=Sep 12 2012, 06:43 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Sep 12 2012, 06:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE brow beating us into accepting this failure of a movement system<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1976599:date=Sep 12 2012, 07:33 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Sep 12 2012, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->b-b-b-but it was originally an accident in the quake engine before like 100 other games more successful than ns2 deliberately implemented it!
I wasn't born knowing how to do it! SCARYYYYYYY<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's not go into total troll mode :P
But yes, I do think the time has come to really attempt the idea and see some action on it, since we've tried any number of alternatives with little success, and the craving still irrepressably exists for the genuine article.
Bunnyhop is dumb for an "increase speed" concept, however doing it properly still makes it much harder for marines to hit you so it still has its uses.
Less QQ more Pew Pew, it is a "slap in the face" to the baddies I would say. I have no problem moving as a skulk in the current build.
<!--quoteo(post=1976601:date=Sep 12 2012, 07:34 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Sep 12 2012, 07:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976601"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's not go into total troll mode :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not troll mode..it's "getting it out of the way" before 10 people quote you and repeat those same arguments.
<!--quoteo(post=1976605:date=Sep 12 2012, 07:37 PM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Sep 12 2012, 07:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunnyhop is dumb for an "increase speed" concept, however doing it properly still makes it much harder for marines to hit you so it still has its uses.
Less QQ more Pew Pew, it is a "slap in the face" to the baddies I would say. I have no problem moving as a skulk in the current build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What competitive teams have you played for? Can I see some demos/videos of you being good at games?
<!--quoteo(post=1976608:date=Sep 12 2012, 11:39 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Sep 12 2012, 11:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976608"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not troll mode..it's "getting it out of the way" before 10 people quote you and repeat those same arguments.
What competitive teams have you played for? Can I see some demos/videos of you being good at games?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1976631:date=Sep 12 2012, 08:04 PM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Sep 12 2012, 08:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see any NS2 vids there. You do realize this is NS2 we are discussing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now lets see your vids.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I watched about 5 minutes and didn't see a single walljump :p.
I don't think walljump as a concept is as flawed as some people are making out (probably biased a bit) although the problems with props on walls, needing to ramp up speed, and timing/angle are there. Granted the current implementation isn't as good as it was in alot of the much older builds imo.
<!--quoteo(post=1976643:date=Sep 12 2012, 08:13 PM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Sep 12 2012, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976643"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Obviously you don't since you have no clue about anything related to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
guilty as charged
now explain why everybody else calling this game and its community out 'has no clue'
<!--quoteo(post=1976672:date=Sep 13 2012, 10:30 AM:name=RobustPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobustPenguin @ Sep 13 2012, 10:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they're going to leave it at a whopping 2 speed (7 to 9) speed buff then Id rather they just up the skulks speed and get rid of it completely<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It seems that UWE has trolled us again with their tweets and the speed cap is actually higher as previous posters in this thread have pointed out. It would be nice if there was only one speedcap though, and not one for cele and one for non-cele.
Comments
i think many of the people in this thread have already learned wall hopping, and are speaking as people who have learned both systems, and find bhop better.
*dons flamesuit*
A few of the posts above this one answered it.
The problems bunnyhop had are miniscule, walljump is far more flawed in comparison. It rarely works technically speaking, it ONLY works when walls are around, it feels more annoying fighting a skulk bouncing around on walls than a skulk who moves slightly faster until his momentum-generation is halted, wall-jumping is skill-less and spammy, etc<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, wallhop fails almost entirely at addressing the reasons people gave for disliking bunnyhop and has introduced a bunch of new ones to boot.
In the mean time, implement Yuuki's suggestion of continuous fall-offs either side of the golden number and also make it so that a skulk is actually possible to predict (a short snap of the mouse as you're jumping completely changes the trajectory of the skulk with practically zero visual feedback for marines which sucks).
leave flayra alone
I was on board with that logic...
...but now i'm ramming head-first in to a wall and snapping my mouse wildly to get speed instead...
...hmm
2. bhop was removed for being unintuitive / hard to learn
3. walljump is unintuitive / hard to learn
4. If the dev's had to play against a walljumper in 216/217 that could go speed 15-20 they would realise how ###### retarded it is.
5. Acceleration cap on wall jump combo'd with bhop would be so SICK!!! (warsow style)
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y6t07VID4w" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y6t07VID4w</a>
Hit reg is improving and i find myself not able to close the distance fast enough (as an average player) to get close to my intended target. As marines it is almost too easy now to kill the huge, slow skulk where Cara now isnt a big deal and celerity is a joke compared to what it was.
If you are new to this argument on either side of the fence, just know it has been being rehashed for no joke... YEARS. If you think everyone has accepted walljump because you dont see many posts here defending BHop it is because of what i mentioned above and UWE brow beating us into accepting this failure of a movement system. God forbid they take Fana's approach and blend the two. Compromise and all that...
My two biggest complaints with walljump over bhop is simply this:
1. Walls are not everywhere, floors are.
2. Floors generally have less geometry per room than walls. Floors generally have a clear path or at least one you can see with little effort, walls no so much.
The whole forum doesn't need to change itself to suit your preferences, and if you really think it's such a terrible thing, then you should take a stand and make a thread listing your reasons instead of just complaining about it and expecting that to work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well he was here before most people here if you would just happen to look at his join date. 2004. So hes obviously not new here so he didnt just 'walk in' with 'extream igrorance'. Also this is a forum to express views on the game no matter how new or old. So to say 'you must be new here' after he's stated a very valid point is quite ignorant in its self. We should be having a good discussion about the topic at hand not criticising them. Good day sir.
How?
Is getting up to 12 or 14 speed when you normally run at 7 or 10 speed not useful to you?
+1, THIS!! and all that. Do the math.
Hit reg is improving and i find myself not able to close the distance fast enough (as an average player) to get close to my intended target. As marines it is almost too easy now to kill the huge, slow skulk where Cara now isnt a big deal and celerity is a joke compared to what it was.
If you are new to this argument on either side of the fence, just know it has been being rehashed for no joke... YEARS. If you think everyone has accepted walljump because you dont see many posts here defending BHop it is because of what i mentioned above and UWE brow beating us into accepting this failure of a movement system. God forbid they take Fana's approach and blend the two. Compromise and all that...
My two biggest complaints with walljump over bhop is simply this:
1. Walls are not everywhere, floors are.
2. Floors generally have less geometry per room than walls. Floors generally have a clear path or at least one you can see with little effort, walls no so much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think there's another feature that continues to be something people want, in quite the same way people want bunnyhop. There's that idea, that hope that it can create the kind of seperation in skill between smart alien teams and smart alien teams that can also do the typical reflex-gaming stuff well.
Right now as a skulk your job is to not miss any bites and play conservatively and not die. That's fine, but is it enough to make people want to play this class for years to come? Not by a long shot, imo. Bunnyhopping, if implemented correctly, could really deepen the way people perceive the maps, the way players play, and the way the game feels.
Right now as a skulk your job is to not miss any bites and play conservatively and not die. That's fine, but it's also quite lifeless. A nice way to help the class out would be to give it what it really has needed all along, which was that extra level of skill potential to make the class deeper and to increase the amount of times any sane, reasonable person would want to really play that same character over and over again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
b-b-b-but it was originally an accident in the quake engine before like 100 other games more successful than ns2 deliberately implemented it!
I wasn't born knowing how to do it! SCARYYYYYYY
<!--quoteo(post=1976559:date=Sep 12 2012, 06:43 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Sep 12 2012, 06:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE brow beating us into accepting this failure of a movement system<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
:)
I wasn't born knowing how to do it! SCARYYYYYYY<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's not go into total troll mode :P
But yes, I do think the time has come to really attempt the idea and see some action on it, since we've tried any number of alternatives with little success, and the craving still irrepressably exists for the genuine article.
Less QQ more Pew Pew, it is a "slap in the face" to the baddies I would say. I have no problem moving as a skulk in the current build.
It's not troll mode..it's "getting it out of the way" before 10 people quote you and repeat those same arguments.
<!--quoteo(post=1976605:date=Sep 12 2012, 07:37 PM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Sep 12 2012, 07:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunnyhop is dumb for an "increase speed" concept, however doing it properly still makes it much harder for marines to hit you so it still has its uses.
Less QQ more Pew Pew, it is a "slap in the face" to the baddies I would say. I have no problem moving as a skulk in the current build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What competitive teams have you played for? Can I see some demos/videos of you being good at games?
What competitive teams have you played for? Can I see some demos/videos of you being good at games?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Enjoy
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHHMkJswtaw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHHMkJswtaw</a>
Now lets see your vids.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHHMkJswtaw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHHMkJswtaw</a>
Now lets see your vids.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/azngoku666" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/user/azngoku666</a>
I don't see any NS2 vids there. You do realize this is NS2 we are discussing?
You think I play this game?
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHHMkJswtaw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHHMkJswtaw</a>
Now lets see your vids.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I watched about 5 minutes and didn't see a single walljump :p.
I don't think walljump as a concept is as flawed as some people are making out (probably biased a bit) although the problems with props on walls, needing to ramp up speed, and timing/angle are there. Granted the current implementation isn't as good as it was in alot of the much older builds imo.
Obviously you don't since you have no clue about anything related to it.
guilty as charged
now explain why everybody else calling this game and its community out 'has no clue'
I love reading this stuff :)
now explain why everybody else calling this game and its community out 'has no clue'
I love reading this stuff :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They're not.
You probably should, though.
It seems that UWE has trolled us again with their tweets and the speed cap is actually higher as previous posters in this thread have pointed out. It would be nice if there was only one speedcap though, and not one for cele and one for non-cele.