IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited September 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1977785:date=Sep 14 2012, 12:49 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Sep 14 2012, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Who derives fun from this mechanic paying off?</b> <i>-People who make mistakes</i> Who doesn't when this mechanic pays off? <i>-People who played better than their opponent</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This .. is quite possibly the best argument against it that i have heard. Thanks for breaking the upgrade down so well, elodea.. really interesting way to look at it.
Though, again.. every upgrade works this way, such as cara giving you that extra little bit of armor for a few more seconds of escape or bite etc. Feign death is just on the far end of this spectrum, where it can be felt as unfair, or removing that sense of accomplishment. (because you don't think its unfair when it took 2 extra seconds to take down that cara fade) Interesting points though.. i wonder if more control was put into to alien's hands.. as some suggest, so that their skill in coordination with the upgrade earns their advantage over the marine? i.e. fair.
<!--quoteo(post=1977803:date=Sep 14 2012, 01:23 PM:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum @ Sep 14 2012, 01:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977803"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You cannot make it so that it tricks marines, because the marines will always know you have it after the first alien with feign death dies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The same thing can be said about cloaked or especially silenced aliens.. (the amount of times i've said "Theyve got silence, watch out" ) but that doesn't mean that every alien you encounter has it, so you wont know still.
Interesting when you compare the upgrades tho in viability.. Because it serves as a great insurance plan for your advanced lifeform, the <i>chance </i>for a get out of jail free card. I see this as being far more viable than lasting a few more seconds in combat. (cara) This obviously makes it look like a poor reason to choose for skulks, but that one extra unexpected bite can pay off and save your RT etc. especially since it's all costing you 0 pres.. not to mention you arent thrown into a spawn wave where you will be missing out on pres.
And as for feign death not changing my play style... i completely disagree. I do wayy more risky things and when i know i'm about to die i try to make it for the door .. because every inch counts when i come back to life. This doesn't even touch on the "Do i attack with a last ditch effort? or do i try to save my lifeform? Will i make it?" all within 3 quick, ambivalent seconds. Thats way more difference in play style and planning than say Regen, which boils down to "Hey don't die as typical and you wont have to go all the way back to the hive, Yay."
How about we remove feign death and replace it with a skill called "Dark Cloud" When a unit goes lower then 25% life it squirts a dark cloud of ink like the Shade out of the Shade hive. This is a deception theme as you can use it to disturb the marine vision. Make it so flamethrowers can ignite it like spores(maybe cause damage in an aoe?) Aliens can use their alien vision to see past the cloud. It would sync with Xenocide a bit. I guess you would have to balance the size of the cloud and the duration, maybe not as big as the one from the Shade. Not sure if I should move this to suggestions :/
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Who derives fun from this mechanic paying off? -People who make mistakes
Who doesn't when this mechanic pays off? -People who played better than their opponent<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does reward people who make mistakes but it also lets aliens be a bit more risky. Observatory while adding motion tracking are the "OH ######" button when teammates don't phase or run in to base in time. I think people hate feign death because it feels unfair to the marines when alliens escape when they should of died and newbies get tricked. Overall it is pretty gimmicky :D. I would be happy if it was removed but something needs to replace it.
replacement for feign death : Hallucination death (shade hive = illusions after all)
Use the same code that triggers Feign Death Rather than death, the alien will stay alive for another 5 or so seconds During this time, the alien will neither receive nor be able to inflict damage When the time runs out the alien will disappear like a Hallucination (same animation) and the kill notification will appear
Marines will have no idea if the alien is still alive or dead, the only give away will be if an alien is doing no damage
<!--quoteo(post=1977785:date=Sep 14 2012, 09:49 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Sep 14 2012, 09:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Who derives fun from this mechanic paying off?</b> <i>-People who make mistakes</i> Who doesn't when this mechanic pays off? <i>-People who played better than their opponent</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I dislike feign death as much as the next person, I simply cannot agree with this reasoning. Is someone who runs straight up to his enemy while having carapace and tanking as much damage as possible "making mistakes"? No, he is simply taking advantage of all the resources available to him. Trust me, those fades that blink in and use feign death every time are rarely making mistakes. They are doing it very much on purpose.
<!--quoteo(post=1977785:date=Sep 14 2012, 09:49 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Sep 14 2012, 09:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>What is the utility of feign death?</b> <i>-2nd chance on killing blow to escape and come back again -2nd chance on killing blow to finish off your enemy with a last attack</i> ... <b>So can we balance feign death such that it has a flat risk-adjusted utility across experience levels? </b> <i>no.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1977803:date=Sep 14 2012, 10:23 PM:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum @ Sep 14 2012, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977803"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. a pressable button -> doesn't work, since upgrades are passive<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dafuq? I feel like a broken record. You don't need a pressable button! It kicks in at 40% max Health. This makes it 1.) not valid for escaping a killing blow and 2.) situational and not an update you chose every life.
Why can't you think out of your tiny box of "feign death needs to be a cheap rescue mechanic"? Sure, if you can't think farther than that, than it is not balanceable.
I don't explain a working functionality a sixth time! Just keep on ignoring it and call this upgrade unbalance-able. -.-
<!--quoteo(post=1978109:date=Sep 15 2012, 12:56 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Sep 15 2012, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dafuq? I feel like a broken record. You don't need a pressable button! It kicks in at 40% max Health. This makes it 1.) not valid for escaping a killing blow and 2.) situational and not an update you chose every life.
Why can't you think out of your tiny box of "feign death needs to be a cheap rescue mechanic"? Sure, if you can't think farther than that, than it is not balanceable.
I don't explain a working functionality a sixth time! Just keep on ignoring it and call this upgrade unbalance-able. -.-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would you want an ability like feign death to trigger at 40% health? What benefit or utility does that provide? Why not 64.345% health instead?
<!--quoteo(post=1975932:date=Sep 12 2012, 12:57 AM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ Sep 12 2012, 12:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->another extremely better solution than what we have now is what Mestaritonttu writes where the alien just "plays dead" - the marines can waste bullets/time on corpses or risk them being feinting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1975618:date=Sep 11 2012, 02:43 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Sep 11 2012, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a good idea, but<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yaay, everybody likes me!
<!--quoteo(post=1978089:date=Sep 15 2012, 08:03 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 15 2012, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While I dislike feign death as much as the next person, I simply cannot agree with this reasoning. Is someone who runs straight up to his enemy while having carapace and tanking as much damage as possible "making mistakes"? No, he is simply taking advantage of all the resources available to him. Trust me, those fades that blink in and use feign death every time are rarely making mistakes. They are doing it very much on purpose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The part quoted was evaluating the <b>fun</b> aspect and how feign's design inherently creates fun in a way that is 'anti-competitive'. This isn't the case with carapace as below.
To answer your question, i think yes the skulk is infact making mistakes because he is running straight towards the marine... :p. Sometimes cara will emulate the problem inherent within feign, but when it does, the cause is very easily identified and tweaked e.g. cara bonus too high. We saw this with 50 cara and i think it was plain the ammount of unfun it was causing. The only thing we can tweak with feign is the chance the upgrade pays off given a fixed marine experience level.
When feign pays off (this is inevitable), it rewards the player who should have lost. I say this because the player can additionally have the other major viability upgrades carapace/regen/cele/adren. You cannot say he lost because he took feign instead of cara etc. This is why feign would be workable <b>if</b> it was in the crag tree like redemption was, but that solution doesn't fit thematically. Not to say redemption didn't have problems of its own either, but atleast it didn't have this specific problem we are seeing in feign.
And quickly, i wouldn't know why good fades are purposely trying to stay in combat so long that they are triggering feign lol (other than to troll newbs). A death is always a bad thing due to the risk you are taking on that you'll be sniped.
This really highlights the fact that alien player upgrades should be form specific and not your more boring general upgrades that should be made commander level (regen, carapace, etc.). The game really needs to distinguish between FPS player level individual tactical choices and commander level strategical team wide choices.
<!--quoteo(post=1975310:date=Sep 11 2012, 02:04 AM:name=GirTurkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GirTurkey @ Sep 11 2012, 02:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975310"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that feign death should be moved to the crag hive abilities, and give shade hive focus.
now there is a tradeoff for feign death for fades, no regen or cara.
also makes shade hive far more viable because of focus power.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Great idea, that would balance feign death. However if devs decide to remove feign death I hope they could atleast put NS1 Redemption to NS2
And BTW. Why is no one complaining about Hypermutation? I mean it's so useless that i have not seen a commander who would upgrade it... Ir should be replaced with something too.
Comments
That would matter if shooting the ragdoll still damaged the Alien. But it don't.
<i>-People who make mistakes</i>
Who doesn't when this mechanic pays off?
<i>-People who played better than their opponent</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This .. is quite possibly the best argument against it that i have heard.
Thanks for breaking the upgrade down so well, elodea.. really interesting way to look at it.
Though, again.. every upgrade works this way, such as cara giving you that extra little bit of armor for a few more seconds of escape or bite etc.
Feign death is just on the far end of this spectrum, where it can be felt as unfair, or removing that sense of accomplishment. (because you don't think its unfair when it took 2 extra seconds to take down that cara fade)
Interesting points though.. i wonder if more control was put into to alien's hands.. as some suggest, so that their skill in coordination with the upgrade earns their advantage over the marine? i.e. fair.
<!--quoteo(post=1977803:date=Sep 14 2012, 01:23 PM:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum @ Sep 14 2012, 01:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977803"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You cannot make it so that it tricks marines, because the marines will always know you have it after the first alien with feign death dies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The same thing can be said about cloaked or especially silenced aliens.. (the amount of times i've said "Theyve got silence, watch out" ) but that doesn't mean that every alien you encounter has it, so you wont know still.
Interesting when you compare the upgrades tho in viability.. Because it serves as a great insurance plan for your advanced lifeform, the <i>chance </i>for a get out of jail free card. I see this as being far more viable than lasting a few more seconds in combat. (cara) This obviously makes it look like a poor reason to choose for skulks, but that one extra unexpected bite can pay off and save your RT etc. especially since it's all costing you 0 pres.. not to mention you arent thrown into a spawn wave where you will be missing out on pres.
And as for feign death not changing my play style... i completely disagree. I do wayy more risky things and when i know i'm about to die i try to make it for the door .. because every inch counts when i come back to life. This doesn't even touch on the "Do i attack with a last ditch effort? or do i try to save my lifeform? Will i make it?" all within 3 quick, ambivalent seconds. Thats way more difference in play style and planning than say Regen, which boils down to "Hey don't die as typical and you wont have to go all the way back to the hive, Yay."
When a unit goes lower then 25% life it squirts a dark cloud of ink like the Shade out of the Shade hive. This is a deception theme as you can use it to disturb the marine vision. Make it so flamethrowers can ignite it like spores(maybe cause damage in an aoe?) Aliens can use their alien vision to see past the cloud.
It would sync with Xenocide a bit.
I guess you would have to balance the size of the cloud and the duration, maybe not as big as the one from the Shade.
Not sure if I should move this to suggestions :/
-People who make mistakes
Who doesn't when this mechanic pays off?
-People who played better than their opponent<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thread won.
Use the same code that triggers Feign Death
Rather than death, the alien will stay alive for another 5 or so seconds
During this time, the alien will neither receive nor be able to inflict damage
When the time runs out the alien will disappear like a Hallucination (same animation) and the kill notification will appear
Marines will have no idea if the alien is still alive or dead, the only give away will be if an alien is doing no damage
<i>-People who make mistakes</i>
Who doesn't when this mechanic pays off?
<i>-People who played better than their opponent</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I dislike feign death as much as the next person, I simply cannot agree with this reasoning. Is someone who runs straight up to his enemy while having carapace and tanking as much damage as possible "making mistakes"? No, he is simply taking advantage of all the resources available to him. Trust me, those fades that blink in and use feign death every time are rarely making mistakes. They are doing it very much on purpose.
<i>-2nd chance on killing blow to escape and come back again
-2nd chance on killing blow to finish off your enemy with a last attack</i>
...
<b>So can we balance feign death such that it has a flat risk-adjusted utility across experience levels? </b>
<i>no.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1977803:date=Sep 14 2012, 10:23 PM:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum @ Sep 14 2012, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977803"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. a pressable button -> doesn't work, since upgrades are passive<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dafuq? I feel like a broken record.
You don't need a pressable button! It kicks in at 40% max Health. This makes it 1.) not valid for escaping a killing blow and 2.) situational and not an update you chose every life.
Why can't you think out of your tiny box of "feign death needs to be a cheap rescue mechanic"? Sure, if you can't think farther than that, than it is not balanceable.
I don't explain a working functionality a sixth time! Just keep on ignoring it and call this upgrade unbalance-able. -.-
You don't need a pressable button! It kicks in at 40% max Health. This makes it 1.) not valid for escaping a killing blow and 2.) situational and not an update you chose every life.
Why can't you think out of your tiny box of "feign death needs to be a cheap rescue mechanic"? Sure, if you can't think farther than that, than it is not balanceable.
I don't explain a working functionality a sixth time! Just keep on ignoring it and call this upgrade unbalance-able. -.-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would you want an ability like feign death to trigger at 40% health? What benefit or utility does that provide? Why not 64.345% health instead?
<!--quoteo(post=1975618:date=Sep 11 2012, 02:43 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Sep 11 2012, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a good idea, but<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yaay, everybody likes me!
No srsly. Do eet! DO EET!
The part quoted was evaluating the <b>fun</b> aspect and how feign's design inherently creates fun in a way that is 'anti-competitive'. This isn't the case with carapace as below.
To answer your question, i think yes the skulk is infact making mistakes because he is running straight towards the marine... :p. Sometimes cara will emulate the problem inherent within feign, but when it does, the cause is very easily identified and tweaked e.g. cara bonus too high. We saw this with 50 cara and i think it was plain the ammount of unfun it was causing. The only thing we can tweak with feign is the chance the upgrade pays off given a fixed marine experience level.
When feign pays off (this is inevitable), it rewards the player who should have lost. I say this because the player can additionally have the other major viability upgrades carapace/regen/cele/adren. You cannot say he lost because he took feign instead of cara etc. This is why feign would be workable <b>if</b> it was in the crag tree like redemption was, but that solution doesn't fit thematically. Not to say redemption didn't have problems of its own either, but atleast it didn't have this specific problem we are seeing in feign.
And quickly, i wouldn't know why good fades are purposely trying to stay in combat so long that they are triggering feign lol (other than to troll newbs). A death is always a bad thing due to the risk you are taking on that you'll be sniped.
Not deceptive in anyway.
It would also only be usable by skulks.
now there is a tradeoff for feign death for fades, no regen or cara.
also makes shade hive far more viable because of focus power.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great idea, that would balance feign death.
However if devs decide to remove feign death I hope they could atleast put NS1 Redemption to NS2
And BTW. Why is no one complaining about Hypermutation? I mean it's so useless that i have not seen a commander who would upgrade it...
Ir should be replaced with something too.