oldassgamersJoin Date: 2011-02-02Member: 80033Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
I recently made a KA KAA moment, in build 218. We where 8 lerks flying in to a room fightiing marines. I think it was about 5-6 marines. But we got owned :( Alhtough we had no gas. But still, totally owned :(
<!--quoteo(post=1974036:date=Sep 8 2012, 04:22 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Sep 8 2012, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->..so they can just look directly at you at point blank and shoot you? or would your super cute idea also disable their guns?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In the mod when the lerks picked up the marines, They instantly got swapped to knife/melee, All it really took was a couple of slashes at the feet of the lerk and you're free. It would be good if used right, Also i don't see you coming up with any ideas, You're so cute btw.
<!--quoteo(post=1974288:date=Sep 8 2012, 10:55 PM:name=RaptorBlackz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RaptorBlackz @ Sep 8 2012, 10:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974288"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the mod when the lerks picked up the marines, They instantly got swapped to knife/melee, All it really took was a couple of slashes at the feet of the lerk and you're free. It would be good if used right, Also i don't see you coming up with any ideas, You're so cute btw.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Search my post history for the numerous threads where I went very in-depth about the problems with the lerk, possible solutions etc
You can do it. I believe in you.
Here are some examples: <ul><li><a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115937&hl=" target="_blank">a</a></li><li><a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117485&hl=" target="_blank">b</a></li><li><a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118268&hl=" target="_blank">c</a></li></ul>
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Err.. glad to see your old constructive posts, i.e. But i think they are a bit outdated/do not apply anymore :-/
Although the importance you place on spores in the lerk tactics thread makes me happy and proves what everyone is saying here in this thread regarding the drop in viability :)
I really just want spores back first. Spores were what made an early lerk annoying, you could cut out entire corridors from marines and could actually be a threat. With spikes sure you can kill a RT from a vent after 30 seconds but who really cares?
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1974670:date=Sep 9 2012, 02:53 PM:name=RobustPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobustPenguin @ Sep 9 2012, 02:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974670"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With spikes sure you can kill a RT from a vent after 30 seconds but who really cares?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fana does! lol.. But really. I get his point needing one ranged and one short.. but needing it OVER spores makes zero sense to me considering how much of that lifeform's purpose surrounds spores. Which is why i see 216 as being leaps and bounds better than 218 lerk.. I dont often call for a straight "revert" but in this case its not working out. I get what fana wanted was not fully implemented either so its hard to say what could have been.. but no matter how i look at it, without starting spores your viability drops severely .
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1974675:date=Sep 9 2012, 11:01 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 9 2012, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OVER spores makes zero sense to me considering how much of that lifeform's purpose surrounds spores.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The current spore mechanic is more or less useless against marines who can aim. That is part of what I am talking about when I say that the 216 lerk was broken for high level play.
<!--quoteo(post=1974668:date=Sep 9 2012, 10:50 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 9 2012, 10:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(did anyone go lerk in that streamed cup?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it is a waste of res. You wouldn't have seen any lerks if we had played 216 either.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
The spore mechanic might be less effective or even useless against an edge case such as "marines who can aim" at your level.. but so what, that's the advantage of skill over a certain mechanic, just like how a skilled gorge can kill a marine 1vs1??
The majority don't fall into that edge case of "fana aim" and i dont think we should try to subvert it either.. Because I'm not a top tier player such as yourself fana but even i have zero issues surviving in a room i am sporing in generally.. why? Because:
I use spores for area denial outside the room they are in so aim doesn't even factor in. I use spores when my teammates are down below attacking, so marines are too busy and thus aim doesn't even factor in again. I use them for escaping and rounding a corner at fast speeds to prevent them from following me, so again aim doesn't factor in.
A lerk, who is the "harasser" of the game should not think that they can enter a room of marines alone and safely spray away.. I'm not saying this scenario is what you base your "more or less useless" opinion on... but i cant see how aim truly factors in here, as the way i see it: if a group of marines are firing at me or even in my direction its time to gtfo. (early patches were different ofc with how the lerk was able to 1vs1 with spikes and what not, before energy flapping.)
216 lerk may have been broken for that "high level play" .. but now its just broken for all. Evidence lies in the lack of use for both comp games and pub. Swapping spores for spikes didn't really seem to fix the problem for any tier of player.. so why did it happen? Why wasn't some suggestion like "Spray spores ahead of you a certain random, constantly varying distance, under your bellow so that the marines never know exactly where to shoot?" made instead of "remove spores from your starting lifeform because it doesnt work well for high level play".. ?
To me its like the issue wasn't addressed directly, and instead a nerf was born. :-/
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Swapping spores for spikes didn't really seem to fix the problem for any tier of player.. so why did it happen?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The swap happened because players were complaining about how a 20 res shotgun can instagib a 30 res life form, that can't be recycled just like a shotgun. So they made spikes baseline so lerk players can feel like they can fight shotgun marines without having an overwhelming fear of possibly having completely wasted 30 resources on the lifeform. Edit: Except they seemingly "refuse" to make spikes work for some reason?
Swapping spores and spikes back around will not in any way, shape, or form improve lerks. Because the underlying problem as to why lerks suck so much is because trailing spores is garbage against any decent player who knows how to aim in a FPS. So spores is baseline again, great, that did nothing to fix the late game issue that lerks suffer from: being useless. Spikes on hive two will not give alien commanders any more incentive to upgrade lerk players than they already do now with spores being on hive two. NS2 lerk has failed with every implementation. It's time to seriously consider bring back NS1 lerk. And that means ranged spores too.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1974708:date=Sep 9 2012, 11:57 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 9 2012, 11:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but i cant see how aim truly factors in here<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you are playing to win, it requires that you use every resource in the most effective manner. The lerk being limited to the scenarios you described, is not an effective use of 30 res -- not to mention there are many ways good marines can kill lerks that are playing in the way you have suggested.
<!--quoteo(post=1974708:date=Sep 9 2012, 11:57 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 9 2012, 11:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->216 lerk may have been broken for that "high level play" .. but now its just broken for all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why do you force me to repeat myself? <!--quoteo(post=1973002:date=Sep 6 2012, 09:08 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Sep 6 2012, 09:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1973002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Changing the Lerk back from completely broken to only mostly broken, is not a solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1974708:date=Sep 9 2012, 11:57 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 9 2012, 11:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why wasn't some suggestion like "Spray spores ahead of you a certain random, constantly varying distance, under your bellow so that the marines never know exactly where to shoot?" made instead of "remove spores from your starting lifeform because it doesnt work well for high level play".. ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you joking? Is this some sort of Internet version of candid camera? I've suggested all manner of different ranged spore alternatives over 10+ threads over the last couple of years, most recently in my think tank thread. I can't force UWE to take my advice, you know, although I sometimes wish I could...
Lerk needs and is getting a buff...I believe only half the changes for lerk have been put in and there are more improvements to come. Will this include the buff spores need to warrant being a 2nd hive ability. Spores should be on a level with Leap, Bile, Blink and Stomp currently they are on seem to be almost on par with parasite.
Spores do not do enough to worry marines considering the great risk lerk face in trying to drop them.
Remove flap energy cost as it seems silly that a lerk can end up flat footed in a fight because he was gassing and ran out of energy. The gas is not effective enough to warrant being mingy with it.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited September 2012
@haken.. thats not exactly decided/official yet. I've seen the proposal and if you ask me it fixes nothing, once again not addressing the issue. burying the lerk deeper into its grave. Sigh. But who knows, we'll see. I agree regarding removing flap energy because of how it prevents proper use of spikes (dodging while returning fire) but its gonna take a lot more than you and me saying so for this to change.
@fana: I guess we disagree about the usage of the lerk as i have found it to be highly worth it's 30 pres when i use spores (can sometimes turn the game around by harassing their base or blocking long distances)
"Changing the Lerk back from completely broken to only mostly broken, is not a solution." That sort of logic is akin to "if you're not first, you're last." (absolutist thinking) since you are are saying that its either a perfect lerk/solution or bust, no gradient or working towards it. And Since no one is suggesting "THE solution" including yourself (you've only hinted at what is missing from your implemented suggestions to UWE) we're stuck here at completely broken... And I for one don't think completely broken is favored over something that isn't.. i.e. its gonna be iterative change (broken for high level) for a while unless anyone here has said magic solution???
Those are your options, fana: broken, on the road to being fixed, solved.. and that quote of yours isn't leaving any room for that interim step - so whats this solution that works for all levels of play that allows us to skip that step??
p.s. I am still wondering "Swapping spores for spikes didn't really seem to fix the problem for any tier of player.. so why did it happen?" even with energy flapping removed, a lerk spiking without any way to cover it's entrance or exit is less viable
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1974254:date=Sep 9 2012, 01:13 AM:name=oldassgamers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oldassgamers @ Sep 9 2012, 01:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I recently made a KA KAA moment, in build 218. We where 8 lerks flying in to a room fightiing marines. I think it was about 5-6 marines. But we got owned :( Alhtough we had no gas. But still, totally owned :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xUsbAayDa1Q"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xUsbAayDa1Q" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center> <div align='center'><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUsbAayDa1Q" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUsbAayDa1Q</a></div>
Sounds like a useful lerk that would also be fun to play. While I would not bill this is <i>the only</i> solution, it seems like a potentially good solution. There are multiple ways to improve our lerk friend and these seem to be well-thought-out ideas that could be implemented with relative ease.
<!--quoteo(post=1975200:date=Sep 10 2012, 02:39 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Sep 10 2012, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975200"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks guys. Here's the Lerk plan for 219:
#BALANCE De-nerfed Lerk. Spore damage up to 20/second (was 13), bite to 55 (was 50) and spike range up to 50 (was 30).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The primary problem with the lerk on hive one is the energy constrictions, it's pretty unplayable without adrenaline. Any thoughts on lerk energy ?
Agreed, a slight reduction of flap and spike energy would be nice as well.
The lerk cannot be too strong also otherwise we will have lerk rush every game. The 5-6 lerk rush should be only marginally efficient (works about 10-20% of the time).
but lerks can already solo marines with spikes..... the lerk's problem is that spikes are already good and that his main abilities that make him a support lifeform instead of a main offensive lifeform are far along a tech path.... in fact I've never seen lerk gas because because gas fits into the same timeframe as blink and there's no way anybody is going to chose to get lerk gas instead of blink when fades are available. I'm foreseeing this lerk buff as more bad than good even if fades are rebalanced next patch.
are there any plans to make the spike spread less? it's currently pretty useless at combating shotties since at effective range, the shotty still out-dps's the spikes due to misses. i like spores as a research, but please keep them alt-fire (feels really weird to have spikes on m2 and spores on m1). if you want to make gas more effective, increase gas lifetime by 25% instead of increasing the dot.
<!--quoteo(post=1975211:date=Sep 10 2012, 01:55 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Sep 10 2012, 01:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975211"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but lerks can already solo marines with spikes..... the lerk's problem is that spikes are already good and that his main abilities that make him a support lifeform instead of a main offensive lifeform are far along a tech path.... in fact I've never seen lerk gas because because gas fits into the same timeframe as blink and there's no way anybody is going to chose to get lerk gas instead of blink when fades are available. I'm foreseeing this lerk buff as more bad than good even if fades are rebalanced next patch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't that a matter of Fades being overwhelmingly more effective than everything else as opposed to Lerks simply not being able to stack up to other Lifeforms though?
<!--quoteo(post=1975200:date=Sep 10 2012, 03:39 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Sep 10 2012, 03:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975200"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks guys. Here's the Lerk plan for 219:
#BALANCE De-nerfed Lerk. Spore damage up to 20/second (was 13), bite to 55 (was 50) and spike range up to 50 (was 30).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
YAY! Spores do 53% more damage!!!! Bite does 5% more damage and spikes actually have range now!
I love these ideas! BUT! Just a couple gripes.... Spikes need to be a little more accurate. Even if the range is increased from 30 to 50, the spikes are so inaccurate that you can't really hit marines, even when you're in the same room, in close quarters.
The alternate fire needs to be changed. currently it is...
1]bite 2]spore 3]umbra alt]spikes
Usually Bite and Spores are used in conjunction to stack the DoT poison and spores. I think it should be like this.
<!--quoteo(post=1975213:date=Sep 10 2012, 04:56 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Sep 10 2012, 04:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975213"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Isn't that a matter of Fades being overwhelmingly more effective than everything else as opposed to Lerks simply not being able to stack up to other Lifeforms though?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
they don't need to make lerks a killing machine like fades are. Even with how energy was in 216 I think it was when adrenaline was a must I still felt like I was useful with lerk because of how much damage and distraction I did with lerk. I had a friend over who thought the same thing, lerk was his most favourite life form because he could find cheesy ways to distract marines and help out by gasing during fights. This seems to be lost though this patch because gas is a research. They could stretch out the time until fades even longer but I think it was perfect that patch. Lerks came in relatively early enough to be useful, then jetpacks came out with fades, one being a counter to the other and spikes being researched since they are a good utility to deal with jetpacks, which was their main use. Without gas it feels like you shouldn't go lerk and just save for fade. It wouldn't be good to make fades weaker so that the lerk is a good combat side grade to the fade because this would hurt both lifeform's roles.
<!--quoteo(post=1975202:date=Sep 10 2012, 09:45 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Sep 10 2012, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The primary problem with the lerk on hive one is the energy constrictions, it's pretty unplayable without adrenaline. Any thoughts on lerk energy ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed, removal of flapping costing energy would be the best bet. I miss the shotgun spike Lerk, was so fun to play, would love to see it brought back.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited September 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1975211:date=Sep 10 2012, 01:55 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Sep 10 2012, 01:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975211"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but lerks can already solo marines with spikes..... the lerk's problem is that spikes are already good and that his main abilities that make him a support lifeform instead of a main offensive lifeform are <b>far along a tech path..</b>.. in fact I've never seen lerk gas because because <b>gas fits into the same timeframe as blink and there's no way anybody is going to chose to get lerk gas instead of blink when fades are available.</b> I'm foreseeing this lerk buff as more bad than good even if fades are rebalanced next patch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly. See fana's proposal for lerk: "In order to comply with the support role, one of the t1 attacks should ideally be a support attack, but giving the lerk support attacks on t2 and t3 will at least fulfill this principle for parts of most rounds."
But what he failed to assess is the effectiveness of the lerk's ability to engage in fights is exponentially increased with said "support" weapons .. because they are more than damage , they obscure you. I think he - like many others - underestimated the effectiveness of spores and their potential strengths, (maybe he's still thinking of ns1 spores, idk?) and therefore the lerk is still the "fast moving, agile and vulnerable lifeform" <i>that is now highly visible and less protected.</i>
This vulnerable early lifeform does a lot more for it's team with the support role weapons (Spores) early on, not only assisting his team in engaging (when the majority of players are skulks and actually NEED spores the most) but also assisting the lerk itself in engaging with it's own weapons.
So either we keep adjusting this, buffing the health of the lerk to compensate for him becoming more of a tougher combat role and more visible, and not basing it's lifeform around support / obscuring abilities since typically, a commander sees far more viability in the other upgrades for other classes.
OR We can give the lerk spikes and spores to start with (T1) so it has it's melee and range, and then have X as it's T2.... there's a million ideas here, but an easy one is corrosive bite so the lerk's melee is rewarded by scaling with late game finally, destroying armor everywhere he goes (and cleaning up with spores and spikes) and finally contending with BB and Blink.
Oh yea.. and remove energy flapping as long as we have spikes are taking from the same energy pool as flapping...
EDIT: <b> TL;DR</b> version: the problem is you need spores for your skulks early game, you need them to engage with your own weapons and to survive, and its also not getting researched on time if at all.. so i suggest starting with spores and spikes.
Comments
now you've done it..
or would your super cute idea also disable their guns?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the mod when the lerks picked up the marines, They instantly got swapped to knife/melee, All it really took was a couple of slashes at the feet of the lerk and you're free.
It would be good if used right, Also i don't see you coming up with any ideas, You're so cute btw.
It would be good if used right, Also i don't see you coming up with any ideas, You're so cute btw.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Search my post history for the numerous threads where I went very in-depth about the problems with the lerk, possible solutions etc
You can do it. I believe in you.
Here are some examples:
<ul><li><a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115937&hl=" target="_blank">a</a></li><li><a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117485&hl=" target="_blank">b</a></li><li><a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118268&hl=" target="_blank">c</a></li></ul>
But i think they are a bit outdated/do not apply anymore :-/
Although the importance you place on spores in the lerk tactics thread makes me happy and proves what everyone is saying here in this thread regarding the drop in viability :)
(did anyone go lerk in that streamed cup?)
Fana does!
lol..
But really. I get his point needing one ranged and one short.. but needing it OVER spores makes zero sense to me considering how much of that lifeform's purpose surrounds spores. Which is why i see 216 as being leaps and bounds better than 218 lerk.. I dont often call for a straight "revert" but in this case its not working out. I get what fana wanted was not fully implemented either so its hard to say what could have been.. but no matter how i look at it, without starting spores your viability drops severely .
The current spore mechanic is more or less useless against marines who can aim. That is part of what I am talking about when I say that the 216 lerk was broken for high level play.
<!--quoteo(post=1974668:date=Sep 9 2012, 10:50 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 9 2012, 10:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(did anyone go lerk in that streamed cup?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it is a waste of res. You wouldn't have seen any lerks if we had played 216 either.
The majority don't fall into that edge case of "fana aim" and i dont think we should try to subvert it either..
Because I'm not a top tier player such as yourself fana but even i have zero issues surviving in a room i am sporing in generally.. why? Because:
I use spores for area denial outside the room they are in so aim doesn't even factor in.
I use spores when my teammates are down below attacking, so marines are too busy and thus aim doesn't even factor in again.
I use them for escaping and rounding a corner at fast speeds to prevent them from following me, so again aim doesn't factor in.
A lerk, who is the "harasser" of the game should not think that they can enter a room of marines alone and safely spray away.. I'm not saying this scenario is what you base your "more or less useless" opinion on... but i cant see how aim truly factors in here, as the way i see it: if a group of marines are firing at me or even in my direction its time to gtfo. (early patches were different ofc with how the lerk was able to 1vs1 with spikes and what not, before energy flapping.)
216 lerk may have been broken for that "high level play" .. but now its just broken for all.
Evidence lies in the lack of use for both comp games and pub.
Swapping spores for spikes didn't really seem to fix the problem for any tier of player.. so why did it happen? Why wasn't some suggestion like "Spray spores ahead of you a certain random, constantly varying distance, under your bellow so that the marines never know exactly where to shoot?" made instead of "remove spores from your starting lifeform because it doesnt work well for high level play".. ?
To me its like the issue wasn't addressed directly, and instead a nerf was born.
:-/
The swap happened because players were complaining about how a 20 res shotgun can instagib a 30 res life form, that can't be recycled just like a shotgun. So they made spikes baseline so lerk players can feel like they can fight shotgun marines without having an overwhelming fear of possibly having completely wasted 30 resources on the lifeform. Edit: Except they seemingly "refuse" to make spikes work for some reason?
Swapping spores and spikes back around will not in any way, shape, or form improve lerks. Because the underlying problem as to why lerks suck so much is because trailing spores is garbage against any decent player who knows how to aim in a FPS. So spores is baseline again, great, that did nothing to fix the late game issue that lerks suffer from: being useless. Spikes on hive two will not give alien commanders any more incentive to upgrade lerk players than they already do now with spores being on hive two. NS2 lerk has failed with every implementation. It's time to seriously consider bring back NS1 lerk. And that means ranged spores too.
Edit: Forgot. NS1 Lerk or Bust.
If you are playing to win, it requires that you use every resource in the most effective manner. The lerk being limited to the scenarios you described, is not an effective use of 30 res -- not to mention there are many ways good marines can kill lerks that are playing in the way you have suggested.
<!--quoteo(post=1974708:date=Sep 9 2012, 11:57 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 9 2012, 11:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->216 lerk may have been broken for that "high level play" .. but now its just broken for all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do you force me to repeat myself?
<!--quoteo(post=1973002:date=Sep 6 2012, 09:08 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Sep 6 2012, 09:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1973002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Changing the Lerk back from completely broken to only mostly broken, is not a solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1974708:date=Sep 9 2012, 11:57 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 9 2012, 11:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why wasn't some suggestion like "Spray spores ahead of you a certain random, constantly varying distance, under your bellow so that the marines never know exactly where to shoot?" made instead of "remove spores from your starting lifeform because it doesnt work well for high level play".. ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you joking? Is this some sort of Internet version of candid camera? I've suggested all manner of different ranged spore alternatives over 10+ threads over the last couple of years, most recently in my think tank thread. I can't force UWE to take my advice, you know, although I sometimes wish I could...
Most people who have something to say here seem to think spikes over spores wasn't a sucessfull swap.
Yes, Eissfeldt in duplex v exertus.
Will this include the buff spores need to warrant being a 2nd hive ability.
Spores should be on a level with Leap, Bile, Blink and Stomp currently they are on seem to be almost on par with parasite.
Spores do not do enough to worry marines considering the great risk lerk face in trying to drop them.
Remove flap energy cost as it seems silly that a lerk can end up flat footed in a fight because he was gassing and ran out of energy.
The gas is not effective enough to warrant being mingy with it.
I agree regarding removing flap energy because of how it prevents proper use of spikes (dodging while returning fire) but its gonna take a lot more than you and me saying so for this to change.
@fana: I guess we disagree about the usage of the lerk as i have found it to be highly worth it's 30 pres when i use spores (can sometimes turn the game around by harassing their base or blocking long distances)
"Changing the Lerk back from completely broken to only mostly broken, is not a solution."
That sort of logic is akin to "if you're not first, you're last." (absolutist thinking) since you are are saying that its either a perfect lerk/solution or bust, no gradient or working towards it. And Since no one is suggesting "THE solution" including yourself (you've only hinted at what is missing from your implemented suggestions to UWE) we're stuck here at completely broken...
And I for one don't think completely broken is favored over something that isn't.. i.e. its gonna be iterative change (broken for high level) for a while unless anyone here has said magic solution???
Those are your options, fana: broken, on the road to being fixed, solved.. and that quote of yours isn't leaving any room for that interim step - so whats this solution that works for all levels of play that allows us to skip that step??
p.s. I am still wondering "Swapping spores for spikes didn't really seem to fix the problem for any tier of player.. so why did it happen?" even with energy flapping removed, a lerk spiking without any way to cover it's entrance or exit is less viable
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=120054&st=60&p=1968891&#entry1968891" target="_blank">Try reading my actual suggestion.</a>
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xUsbAayDa1Q"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xUsbAayDa1Q" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
<div align='center'><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUsbAayDa1Q" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUsbAayDa1Q</a></div>
Sounds like a useful lerk that would also be fun to play. While I would not bill this is <i>the only</i> solution, it seems like a potentially good solution. There are multiple ways to improve our lerk friend and these seem to be well-thought-out ideas that could be implemented with relative ease.
#BALANCE De-nerfed Lerk. Spore damage up to 20/second (was 13), bite to 55 (was 50) and spike range up to 50 (was 30).
#BALANCE De-nerfed Lerk. Spore damage up to 20/second (was 13), bite to 55 (was 50) and spike range up to 50 (was 30).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The primary problem with the lerk on hive one is the energy constrictions, it's pretty unplayable without adrenaline. Any thoughts on lerk energy ?
The lerk cannot be too strong also otherwise we will have lerk rush every game. The 5-6 lerk rush should be only marginally efficient (works about 10-20% of the time).
Isn't that a matter of Fades being overwhelmingly more effective than everything else as opposed to Lerks simply not being able to stack up to other Lifeforms though?
#BALANCE De-nerfed Lerk. Spore damage up to 20/second (was 13), bite to 55 (was 50) and spike range up to 50 (was 30).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
YAY! Spores do 53% more damage!!!!
Bite does 5% more damage and spikes actually have range now!
I love these ideas!
BUT!
Just a couple gripes....
Spikes need to be a little more accurate. Even if the range is increased from 30 to 50, the spikes are so inaccurate that you can't really hit marines, even when you're in the same room, in close quarters.
The alternate fire needs to be changed.
currently it is...
1]bite
2]spore
3]umbra
alt]spikes
Usually Bite and Spores are used in conjunction to stack the DoT poison and spores.
I think it should be like this.
1]bite
2]spikes
3]umbra
alt]spores
Other than that, these changes are great.
they don't need to make lerks a killing machine like fades are. Even with how energy was in 216 I think it was when adrenaline was a must I still felt like I was useful with lerk because of how much damage and distraction I did with lerk. I had a friend over who thought the same thing, lerk was his most favourite life form because he could find cheesy ways to distract marines and help out by gasing during fights. This seems to be lost though this patch because gas is a research. They could stretch out the time until fades even longer but I think it was perfect that patch. Lerks came in relatively early enough to be useful, then jetpacks came out with fades, one being a counter to the other and spikes being researched since they are a good utility to deal with jetpacks, which was their main use. Without gas it feels like you shouldn't go lerk and just save for fade. It wouldn't be good to make fades weaker so that the lerk is a good combat side grade to the fade because this would hurt both lifeform's roles.
Agreed, removal of flapping costing energy would be the best bet. I miss the shotgun spike Lerk, was so fun to play, would love to see it brought back.
Exactly.
See fana's proposal for lerk:
"In order to comply with the support role, one of the t1 attacks should ideally be a support attack, but giving the lerk support attacks on t2 and t3 will at least fulfill this principle for parts of most rounds."
But what he failed to assess is the effectiveness of the lerk's ability to engage in fights is exponentially increased with said "support" weapons .. because they are more than damage , they obscure you. I think he - like many others - underestimated the effectiveness of spores and their potential strengths, (maybe he's still thinking of ns1 spores, idk?) and therefore the lerk is still the "fast moving, agile and vulnerable lifeform" <i>that is now highly visible and less protected.</i>
This vulnerable early lifeform does a lot more for it's team with the support role weapons (Spores) early on, not only assisting his team in engaging (when the majority of players are skulks and actually NEED spores the most) but also assisting the lerk itself in engaging with it's own weapons.
So either we keep adjusting this, buffing the health of the lerk to compensate for him becoming more of a tougher combat role and more visible, and not basing it's lifeform around support / obscuring abilities since typically, a commander sees far more viability in the other upgrades for other classes.
OR
We can give the lerk spikes and spores to start with (T1) so it has it's melee and range, and then have X as it's T2.... there's a million ideas here, but an easy one is corrosive bite so the lerk's melee is rewarded by scaling with late game finally, destroying armor everywhere he goes (and cleaning up with spores and spikes) and finally contending with BB and Blink.
Oh yea.. and remove energy flapping as long as we have spikes are taking from the same energy pool as flapping...
EDIT: <b> TL;DR</b> version: the problem is you need spores for your skulks early game, you need them to engage with your own weapons and to survive, and its also not getting researched on time if at all.. so i suggest starting with spores and spikes.