Power Node imbalance
ekscom
Join Date: 2012-08-22 Member: 156245Members
Join Date: 2012-08-22 Member: 156245Members
So, aliens can destroy power nodes to mess up marine vision and to power down their buildings.
Shouldn't the marines be able to disrupt the aliens in a similar way? Something to destroy their vision and disable their structures?
I don't know what that would be. A virus? A brown noise machine? lol.
Any good ideas?
The main problem i have here is that the marines are royally screwed if the power goes down, but the aliens dont give a hoot if it's on. Shouldn't they have a disadvantage when the lights are on? I mean, other than marine structures functioning?
If not that, then at least give marines a way to counter main base power node rushes. The power pack we can build is too easily destroyed, takes up space, you need one per building, it doesn't restore the light, costs too much... They are just not a very good solution.
Either make the power pack a viable option or maybe give us a way of fortifying the power nodes?
I'm sure there are other possible solutions.
Another point i want to make is that the aliens only have to attack the power nodes to break them, but the marines need to plan ahead and spend resources to repair a node: the need to get welders.
Yes, the builder tool can be used to repair an already broken node, but not to repair a slightly damaged one.
I think the builder tool should be able to repair power nodes at all times. One marines with a builder tool should take the same time to repair it as it takes one skulk to destroy it.
A slightly off-topic problem: some rooms are too dark even with the lights on. Should the marines be able to build their own light? A police projector that they can shine in notorious dark corners? This will depend on the power node of course. So now the aliens can destroy marine vision and the marines will be able to make their extra light. Sounds right to me.
To recap:
- The aliens have no disadvantage if the marines manage to keep their power nodes operational but the marines have a number of great disadvantages if the power fails.
- The aliens can destroy marine vision and power down buildings but marines cant do anything about alien vision and buildings.
- The aliens need nothing special to destroy a power node, They just start attacking it, but marines need special equipment (a welder) and have to spend resources to repair nodes.
Do you agree/disagree?
Any ideas? :)
Shouldn't the marines be able to disrupt the aliens in a similar way? Something to destroy their vision and disable their structures?
I don't know what that would be. A virus? A brown noise machine? lol.
Any good ideas?
The main problem i have here is that the marines are royally screwed if the power goes down, but the aliens dont give a hoot if it's on. Shouldn't they have a disadvantage when the lights are on? I mean, other than marine structures functioning?
If not that, then at least give marines a way to counter main base power node rushes. The power pack we can build is too easily destroyed, takes up space, you need one per building, it doesn't restore the light, costs too much... They are just not a very good solution.
Either make the power pack a viable option or maybe give us a way of fortifying the power nodes?
I'm sure there are other possible solutions.
Another point i want to make is that the aliens only have to attack the power nodes to break them, but the marines need to plan ahead and spend resources to repair a node: the need to get welders.
Yes, the builder tool can be used to repair an already broken node, but not to repair a slightly damaged one.
I think the builder tool should be able to repair power nodes at all times. One marines with a builder tool should take the same time to repair it as it takes one skulk to destroy it.
A slightly off-topic problem: some rooms are too dark even with the lights on. Should the marines be able to build their own light? A police projector that they can shine in notorious dark corners? This will depend on the power node of course. So now the aliens can destroy marine vision and the marines will be able to make their extra light. Sounds right to me.
To recap:
- The aliens have no disadvantage if the marines manage to keep their power nodes operational but the marines have a number of great disadvantages if the power fails.
- The aliens can destroy marine vision and power down buildings but marines cant do anything about alien vision and buildings.
- The aliens need nothing special to destroy a power node, They just start attacking it, but marines need special equipment (a welder) and have to spend resources to repair nodes.
Do you agree/disagree?
Any ideas? :)
Comments
Shouldn't the marines be able to disrupt the aliens in a similar way? Something to destroy their vision and disable their structures?
I don't know what that would be. A virus? A brown noise machine? lol.
Any good ideas?
The main problem i have here is that the marines are royally screwed if the power goes down, but the aliens dont give a hoot if it's on. Shouldn't they have a disadvantage when the lights are on? I mean, other than marine structures functioning?
If not that, then at least give marines a way to counter main base power node rushes. The power pack we can build is too easily destroyed, takes up space, you need one per building, it doesn't restore the light, costs too much... They are just not a very good solution.
Either make the power pack a viable option or maybe give us a way of fortifying the power nodes?
I'm sure there are other possible solutions.
Another point i want to make is that the aliens only have to attack the power nodes to break them, but the marines need to plan ahead and spend resources to repair a node: the need to get welders.
Yes, the builder tool can be used to repair an already broken node, but not to repair a slightly damaged one.
I think the builder tool should be able to repair power nodes at all times. One marines with a builder tool should take the same time to repair it as it takes one skulk to destroy it.
A lightly off-topic problem:
Also, some rooms are too dark even with the lights on. Should the marines be able to build their own light? A police projector that they can shine in notorious dark corners? This will depend on the power node of course. So now the aliens can destroy marine vision and the marines will be able to make their extra light. Sounds right to me.
To recap:
- The aliens have no disadvantage if the marines manage to keep their power nodes operational but the marines have a number of great disadvantages if the power fails.
- The aliens can destroy marine vision and power down buildings but marines cant do anything about alien vision and buildings.
- The aliens need nothing special to destroy a power node, They just start attacking it, but marines need special equipment (a welder) and have to spend resources to repair nodes.
Do you agree/disagree?
Any ideas? :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SO, listen carefully!
The marines can pressure aliens with the cyst mechanic. Without cyst, there isn't any alien structure, no harvester, NOTHING. aliens destroy the powernodes, marines the cysts.
rooms to dark? It is part of the gameplay, marines have a flashlight, use it...
You can't defend your powernodes? well, look at the statistics of the w/l of marines, it is about 50/50. There isn't problems with it.
Play more, feel the gameplay :)
The problem is that the power node is very fragile nowadays. It's easy to blow it up.
What can marines do when the power goes down? Nothing. All your stuff is useless. When you can't spawn more people in, that base is gone. It takes an age and a half to get to the base from another spawner in another room.
Your Cyst argument? The hive keeps everything functional. You don't need Cysts to have your eggs working. Don't bring up the "But you can kill the eggs" argument, because there are all the eggs in your other hive, so it's not game over. You are crippled and have to get to your hive to defend, but you can do it. It's not over yet. Clearing out all the Eggs in your hive and then targeting the hive takes way more time than breaking a weak little power node. Even when your eggs are down you can still run to defend from your other hive with all of its eggs still functional.
We have to completely bulldoze everything in your base, which takes time and skill. Compare this to losing the game by losing one weak building? Yea, not as much fun.
The weak alien extractor in the beginning? That's not game over by far! You can always defend it. It's fair.
Breaking the cysts on the way to the extractor? it's easy to rebuild. you just plop a cysts. it takes about 1 second and 1 res.
Rebuilding a broken power node is a nightmare with your face at the wall and who knows what running at you from behind. And it takes a loooong time to repair it.
The game is balanced and fun in every other aspect. An insta-death scenario is not OK to have.
This.
Powernodes arent a problem, and the game doesnt need more symmetry.
The only real change i'd like to see on powernodes it that they should cost tres (how much i dont know, tho).
Now cysts on the other hand, oh boy do they need playing with
It is odd how aliens can't force rooms to go dark initially, and must first wait for marines to build the powernode. The alien's starting room and adjacent rooms are "powered" with lights on through most of the match, while alien border rooms closer to marines are usually dark.... The fabled real dynamic infestation is suppose to address this by slowly covering up lights and windows. But thats for the other fabled post-1.0.
However I always thought powered rooms should have some negative effect on aliens...such as slowly killing cysts in powered rooms ('EMF disruption'). Aliens would need to take out powernodes before expanding and curtailing cyst spam into marine rooms . This creates clearly defined borders/rooms. It would turn powernodes from just a liability to a bulwark against infestation expansion. Building powernodes in connecting hallway rooms would act as a way to prevent cyst flow to other areas...forcing aliens to deal with it first. I think alien commander currently has too jolly of a time spreading cysts with little care. It would be interesting for marines if they could sneak into an alien room and turn on the power before attacking and alerting aliens. The power starts killing off cysts helping marines as they destroy other buildings. Like this the two (infestation and power) can't be in the same room peacefully like so often happens now. Allow the alien comm to place a large cyst directly over the sockets preventing marines from sneaking in power to the room.
OutlawDr, thank you for seeing my point.
My first post talks about a number of issues but one of them is exactly that: Light itself can be turned into a resource with a little effort. Marines need it, Aliens want to destroy it. That's exactly it.
The groundwork for this Light/Dark play is already laid out. It'll be cool to see it happen.
The Cyst vs Light idea you propose is awesome. It'll make the game so much more tactical!
If the devs are too busy, i'd love to see a Mod that does this.
The problem is that the power node is very fragile nowadays. It's easy to blow it up.
What can marines do when the power goes down? Nothing. All your stuff is useless. When you can't spawn more people in, that base is gone. It takes an age and a half to get to the base from another spawner in another room.
Your Cyst argument? The hive keeps everything functional. You don't need Cysts to have your eggs working. Don't bring up the "But you can kill the eggs" argument, because there are all the eggs in your other hive, so it's not game over. You are crippled and have to get to your hive to defend, but you can do it. It's not over yet. Clearing out all the Eggs in your hive and then targeting the hive takes way more time than breaking a weak little power node. Even when your eggs are down you can still run to defend from your other hive with all of its eggs still functional.
We have to completely bulldoze everything in your base, which takes time and skill. Compare this to losing the game by losing one weak building? Yea, not as much fun.
The weak alien extractor in the beginning? That's not game over by far! You can always defend it. It's fair.
Breaking the cysts on the way to the extractor? it's easy to rebuild. you just plop a cysts. it takes about 1 second and 1 res.
Rebuilding a broken power node is a nightmare with your face at the wall and who knows what running at you from behind. And it takes a loooong time to repair it.
The game is balanced and fun in every other aspect. An insta-death scenario is not OK to have.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You always say in this post that aliens have another hive with eggs there, isn't it? What about marines having 2 bases (2 cc, 2 armories, IPs, and phase gate between them), It is simpler for marines to go from one part of the map to another.
My cyst argument is not a small idea it is a fact. Have you ever played against good players, they strike your harvesters and cut the cysts chains quicker than aliens kill powernodes...
I think i can say "we" on the following argument that you don't get: play more! We tell you that because you don't know very well the tactics to strike the aliens, you don't know how to counter effectively aliens rush, you don't know how to react correctly and quickly at every situation. This is a sum of facts that newbies don't get because they are not aware of. I'm not insulting, telling you that you play very bad, but you don't know the "little things" you feel when you play a game for a long time. I have more than 450 hours of gameplay behind me since 2010, i know most of those and i'm not learning the gameplay and the mechanics anymore, i'm teaching people how to for those who ask. After some time you feel the game more than you think. Trust me, the power nodes are not a problem and are a key point for both sides. If marines can't defend them or occupy the aliens to prevent them from coming to it, then they found a way to win.
It is not an unfair instant win button, it is a key of the gameplay... same as exos, arcs, etc. You should play more to have more experience, that's what i mean!
<!--quoteo(post=1971861:date=Sep 5 2012, 07:49 AM:name=[HEI]Spade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([HEI]Spade @ Sep 5 2012, 07:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971861"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
You always say in this post that aliens have another hive with eggs there, isn't it? What about marines having 2 bases (2 cc, 2 armories, IPs, and phase gate between them), It is simpler for marines to go from one part of the map to another.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right but all those extra buildings cost resources. So having this backup base is not a problem. If this was a free base it would have been.
<!--quoteo(post=1971861:date=Sep 5 2012, 07:49 AM:name=[HEI]Spade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([HEI]Spade @ Sep 5 2012, 07:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971861"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
My cyst argument is not a small idea it is a fact. Have you ever played against good players, they strike your harvesters and cut the cysts chains quicker than aliens kill powernodes...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, i have. And there is no diference between losing an extractor and losing a harvester so this part is equal. And a broken cyst chain doesnt mean you lose but a broken power node in the main base often does.
<!--quoteo(post=1971861:date=Sep 5 2012, 07:49 AM:name=[HEI]Spade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([HEI]Spade @ Sep 5 2012, 07:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971861"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I think i can say "we" on the following argument that you don't get: play more! We tell you that because you don't know very well the tactics to strike the aliens, you don't know how to counter effectively aliens rush, you don't know how to react correctly and quickly at every situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, they can defend. Yes this and yes that... Still... It's a massive weakness that feels too easy to exploit.
Newbie or Veretan... same thing! Even with a veteran Marine team facing a Veteran Aliens team they still have this massive danger looming over them. If they fail to defend the power node then the whole base is out.
Sure, if they manage to defend it, great. But what if they fail? Aliens don't have this kind of game over mechanic working against them.
<!--quoteo(post=1971861:date=Sep 5 2012, 07:49 AM:name=[HEI]Spade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([HEI]Spade @ Sep 5 2012, 07:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971861"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
If marines can't defend them or occupy the aliens to prevent them from coming to it, then they found a way to win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, but it's too easy to win by destroying one weak building. If aliens fail to defend a cyst chain it's not game over. If Marines fail to defend a power node it often is.
Again, i'm asking to make the power nodes harder to kill.
This happens to Pro and newbie teams. Here:
- Scenario 1a: The aliens lost cysts and a harvester. --> wait for the marines to go away, plop a few cysts. plop a harvester. Done! The game goes on! Maybe they still lose 10 minutes from now because they have no money, but the game goes on. They can still strike a marine extractor and even the score. Then they build another harvester. They can survive.
- Scenario 2a: Marines lost a power node in the main base. They have no other base yet. Game over.
- Scenario 2b: Marines lost a power node in the main base. Now they have to spawn in the other base and walk all the way here. During this time their protorype factory and the advanced armory go down. Game over in about 5-10 minutes. These two are expensive!
Don't you see the problem here? Aliens don't face this threat of losing all their structures by losing a single weak building.
Aliens don't have a game-over button like this. Killing Cysts and harvesters is simply going to slow down their economy, which may result in a loss but it's a fair part of the game. This isnt going to pull up the game over screen.
Don't get me wrong, I love the power node weakness and i dont want it removed. It's just too much of a weakness right now. It should be harder to break those things since the consequences are so very dire.
That's all.
However, you kill a cyst very quickly, same for harvesters. Extrators are quite long to get killed and marines very often can rdefend them from their base. You say that the 2nd base is expensive, but you need one... same for aliens, the second hive is expensive. I can also complain about the newborn hives getting killed in 10 seconds by GLs but i won't because it's fair. The powernode can be defended easily and is not destroyed that fast. <u>It is not an issue</u>. Once again, you have time to defend the powernode, just don't lose it :)
Marine commander get's no warning because for some reason the D.O.T from the bile gives no 'your base is under attack' shout from the ai thingermyduferoony.
Nobody can spawn because they got chomped to peaces. GG.
I would love the power node to have a bit more armor, and ACTUALY TELL YOU ITS BEING FLATTENED BEFORE IT DIES PLZ. KTHX.
heh, I've experienced this a few times as commander. I simply thought I was just a lousy, easily distracted comm for not realizing my powernode was being attacked. So no warning is giving? Even the initial bile splash?
It is odd how aliens can't force rooms to go dark initially, and must first wait for marines to build the powernode. The alien's starting room and adjacent rooms are "powered" with lights on through most of the match, while alien border rooms closer to marines are usually dark.... The fabled real dynamic infestation is suppose to address this by slowly covering up lights and windows. But thats for the other fabled post-1.0.
However I always thought powered rooms should have some negative effect on aliens...such as slowly killing cysts in powered rooms ('EMF disruption'). Aliens would need to take out powernodes before expanding and curtailing cyst spam into marine rooms . This creates clearly defined borders/rooms. It would turn powernodes from just a liability to a bulwark against infestation expansion. Building powernodes in connecting hallway rooms would act as a way to prevent cyst flow to other areas...forcing aliens to deal with it first. I think alien commander currently has too jolly of a time spreading cysts with little care. It would be interesting for marines if they could sneak into an alien room and turn on the power before attacking and alerting aliens. The power starts killing off cysts helping marines as they destroy other buildings. Like this the two (infestation and power) can't be in the same room peacefully like so often happens now. Allow the alien comm to place a large cyst directly over the sockets preventing marines from sneaking in power to the room.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like this idea. Especially because it gives more interplay between the Khamm and Aliens.