<!--quoteo(post=2010783:date=Nov 5 2012, 03:22 AM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lofung @ Nov 5 2012, 03:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010783"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no. the last time i played ns2 back in beta veil isnt even there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well maybe you're special or something. Every time I have tried it, even people on my team tried it, it doesn't work.
I agree that with 4 tech points, once marines hold veil they have the map control and resources to reliably dominate the game. I'm not in favor of mor etech points or messing with resource nodes, but I think the vents around veil could be changed with good effect.
At the moment if marines use nano to move their focus quickly from one hive to another, it takes aliens too long to respond. It's also very slow for aliens to use the vents in nano to respond to threats in nano; so they take the doors and get picked off easily. I think that making the vents under nano more direct would let aliens cross the map quicked to respond to marine map control, and encourage the use of vents in nano making it harder for marines to keep hold.
Assuming equals teams, the current manifestation of ns2_veil as of November 19th is horrible for the marines because of the asymmetry of the map relative to each race's expansion speed and requirements. The north area of the map where marines spawn is a long arc sparse of rt's while the south area of the map is a tight network of corridors that allow easy access to harvesters for support. Marines have two sane options that still fall short in a balanced match: to either holdout in skylight and attempt to establish a foothold up to C12 until they can have their lategame advantages or rush nanogrid to prevent early alien expansion. Aliens simply outresource marines in the first scenario, and the second scenario never works. In a 16-18 player match it is impractical to take nanogrid in the early game and maintain protection of other rt's along the way. Support and adortation for the map seems to be only defended with nostalgia goggles as none of the original NS1 characteristics of the map hold fun in the current game. My only suggestion for retaining the shape of the map while balancing it would be to lengthen the corridors in the southern portion of the map from West Junction to Cargo Transfer to C12.
If nano-grid was a large concern in terms of balance (don't think it is) could you simply flip the room and make the entrances on the other side and the vents on the alien side. You'd probably have to modify east junction and the other room to compensate for time of engagement.
<!--quoteo(post=2028641:date=Nov 19 2012, 05:15 AM:name=Governor Jesse Ventura)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Governor Jesse Ventura @ Nov 19 2012, 05:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Assuming equals teams, the current manifestation of ns2_veil as of November 19th is horrible for the marines because of the asymmetry of the map relative to each race's expansion speed and requirements. The north area of the map where marines spawn is a long arc sparse of rt's while the south area of the map is a tight network of corridors that allow easy access to harvesters for support. Marines have two sane options that still fall short in a balanced match: to either holdout in skylight and attempt to establish a foothold up to C12 until they can have their lategame advantages or rush nanogrid to prevent early alien expansion. Aliens simply outresource marines in the first scenario, and the second scenario never works. In a 16-18 player match it is impractical to take nanogrid in the early game and maintain protection of other rt's along the way. Support and adortation for the map seems to be only defended with nostalgia goggles as none of the original NS1 characteristics of the map hold fun in the current game. My only suggestion for retaining the shape of the map while balancing it would be to lengthen the corridors in the southern portion of the map from West Junction to Cargo Transfer to C12.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're in the competitive forums. The only form of gameplay typically used in thought experiments is 6v6. In competitive games, the exact opposite of what you posted is true. Veil is generally regarded a marine favored map because aliens have such a hard time expanding. If aliens can take double, they generally lose it a few minutes later to a strong marine push. If aliens can't take double, they're stuck on 2 'safe' RTs in their hive locations and generally have a hard time holding their third natural RT (overlook or c-12). Marines typically take the map -- bouncing up to 5-7 harvesters within the first few minutes.
You're right that the marines start in no-where land, but as soon as they get a phasegate out on the map then veil becomes much smaller. For example, a phase gate in double, system, dome, or even c-12 suddenly makes the entire map about the same distance for aliens or marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2010748:date=Nov 4 2012, 10:38 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Nov 4 2012, 10:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010748"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure what two RTs you would remove to accommodate system and dome. C12 and overlook? Or topo and west?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this would be interesting to play test. Does any one else agree? Over look and C-12/The Neck areas would still be interesting as phase gate locations.
It seems that there is a consensus that Veil is decisively tilted towards marines in competitive 6v6. Owing partly to its origins as a ns1 map, Veil differs from typical ns2 maps in three important ways which favour marines:
1. 4 techpoints instead of 5 <ul><li>Aliens need two hives to survive or they are dead. With the usual 5 techpoints, aliens have more expansion options to secure 2nd hive. </li><li>With only 3 available techpoints for aliens, it is possible for marines to lockdown 2 hives, ending the game for aliens, something that isn't possible with 5 techpoints.</li><li>In a lategame standoff, it is typical for marines to secure 2nd techpoint. On other maps, aliens can still have 3 hives lategame to break standoff; on veil, typical marine one-hive lockdown keeps aliens off 3-hive tech.</li></ul> 2. Deviating from the "hub" layout of typical ns2 maps <ul><li>Typical ns2 maps like <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Ns2_summit" target="_blank">Summit </a>are arranged in a hub pattern, with techpoints in a ring around the edge, and "expansion" res placed halfway b/w tech points on the ring. NS2 is balanced such that aliens need 2 hives and 3 RT's to compete with marines. </li><li>On the typical hub layout, aliens can drop 2 hives, hive RT's, and the RT in between for a stable income from 3 RT's. The expansion RT is typically a long distance from marine start and can be defended by aliens reinforcing on both sides. Each techpoint allows aliens to expand in two directions.</li><li>On veil, aliens still get 2 hive rt's but the 3rd, either C-12 or Overlook, is closer to marines and farther from hives, and thus harder to defend. Cargo, the middle hive, has no expansion RT. Pipeline and Sub only have one possible expansion RT rather than two.</li><li>Consequently, it is harder for aliens to hold RT's on veil than other maps.</li></ul> 3. Inclusion of double resource node <ul><li>Double res nozzles on a map usually favour marines. Because of phase gates, marines can beacon and instantly reinforce against an attack.</li><li>On veil, nanogrid status is far from alien hives and difficult for aliens to defend. In a evenly-matched game, aliens can hold two hives or double, but not both. Since one-hive aliens are not viable, aliens cannot hold double, and marines consequently gain a decisive resource advantage</li></ul>
CONCLUSION: It is not so much that veil is imbalanced as, owing to its origins in NS1, it is balanced for NS1 rather than NS2. NS2 is balanced for maps with 5 techpoints in a hub layout, not for veil's 4 techpoints and ns1-style 3-hive layout. Therefore, to improve veil's competitive balance, it would be logical to remove one of these 3 factors which favour marines.
The change that makes the most sense to me would be to split up double, and move one of the res nozzles down to approximately <a href="http://wikiwiki.jp/ns2jp/?plugin=attach&refer=%A5%DE%A5%C3%A5%D7&openfile=ns2_veil_minimap.jpg" target="_blank">Y junction</a>. This gives both cargo the natural expansion that it logically should have, removes the double res point which favours marines, and is much easier to implement than addressing either of the first two issues which would require fundamental changes to the map.
agree with the post above, nice analysis. Although I like the idea of double res nodes, the layout of nano does not work out too well for it. Refinery has it better.
<!--quoteo(post=2032752:date=Nov 23 2012, 07:24 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 23 2012, 07:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->agree with the post above, nice analysis. Although I like the idea of double res nodes, the layout of nano does not work out too well for it. Refinery has it better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What?! Really? I don't think refinery does anything better than any other map except perhaps "steal signature rooms right out of quake3 maps"
Is the double resource really marine favored on Veil? It's fairly common to see aliens take and hold double for at least the first ~5 minutes of a game on Veil currently. The biggest problem with Nanogrid is that it's incredibly difficult to assault into, for either team imo. Once a team has a grip in nanogrid, only a mistake will cause them to lose it.
Rebalancing veil would be a touchy subject, but I think some parts do need some reworking. Cargo hive room, and Nanogrid strike me as the biggest problem areas. There are also things down the line in terms of game balance that will have an impact the way the 4 techpoint maps play (gorge tunnels).
If you really wanted to take a butcher knife to the map, you could try and do something like moving one or both of the double RTs elsewhere on the map, and making Nanogrid back into a techpoint room, making it a 5 techpoint map. But I think it's still worth experimenting with 4 techpoint maps in ns2, especially with the supposed upcoming gorge tunnels depending on how they are implemented. They play very differently than the typical X layout of the 5 techpoint maps, to me that's refreshing to have different layouts be viable.
<!--quoteo(post=2010775:date=Nov 5 2012, 02:12 AM:name=AlphaWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AlphaWolf @ Nov 5 2012, 02:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010775"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Must have happened during beta or something. You can't do it. The best you can do is egg at the bottom of the shaft, and then build your way up using clogs, but that takes a LONG time, and is incredibly annoying to do because you often slip or get stuck.
But again, even if you make it to the top, surviving up there isn't trivial if they have turrets and an obs. They can hit you even when you stand way back inside of the vent. Due to the angle of where bilebomb fires, this doesn't give you much room to do anything, and if they have jetpacks you're just plain screwed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nanogrid is the most easily bileable location in any map. You can practically do it outside of line of sight (bar marines forming a human pyramid on top of the extractor). You don't do it at the top of the vent. You do it slightly below, on top of a clog platform.
Also it doesn't take long to clog up the vent at all if you do it right.
<!--quoteo(post=2034063:date=Nov 25 2012, 12:29 AM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Nov 25 2012, 12:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nanogrid is the most easily bileable location in any map. You can practically do it outside of line of sight (bar marines forming a human pyramid on top of the extractor). You don't do it at the top of the vent. You do it slightly below, on top of a clog platform.
Also it doesn't take long to clog up the vent at all if you do it right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is true. I used to think otherwise, but I've tested it myself with my fellow clanmates. If the Gorge seats himself on a clog slightly below floor level of the vent, he can destroy the power node with complete impunity; nothing short of Jetpacks or Grenades will remove him. If he's at vent height, you can stand on the extractor and shoot through the corner of the vent and kill him pretty quick, but if he drops a bit you are SOL.
the biggest issue with nanogrid imo is armory healing armor and lerk lacking ranged spores. this makes it much harder for aliens to push in and harder for the aliens to delay the marines. it seems like the hallway entrance is a little longer than in the original too, although i could be mistaken. i know this might be anathema since double res node is one of the hallmarks of veil, but perhaps consider moving one of the nanogrid res nodes to the top of y junction?
a few other thoughts, some have already been said: -vents need to be taller so that gorges can evolve in them. -cargo should have something in the rear of the room like a forklift or boom so they can get altitude to fight jetpackers mid-game. cargo hive really is a huge liability in the mid-game due to jetpacks.
I'm not here to say you guys are wrong. I'm just stating a few things that help with taking Nano until it's balanced.
As marines, one method our team does to take nano is to try to break the cyst chains running into nano. After that, we wait until the room begins to rot then do our push.
As aliens, you go into one of the back vents in nano and go gorge. From there, clog jump your way up the vent and proceed to bilebomb nano.
<!--quoteo(post=2035832:date=Nov 27 2012, 08:26 AM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Nov 27 2012, 08:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035832"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As marines, one method our team does to take nano is to try to break the cyst chains running into nano. After that, we wait until the room begins to rot then do our push.
As aliens, you go into one of the back vents in nano and go gorge. From there, clog jump your way up the vent and proceed to bilebomb nano.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The first one takes a really long time, and the alien comm can spam cysts pretty quickly. This forces you to shoot cysts which makes it pretty easy for skulks to clean you up. It can work, but it is by no means an easy win against a competent team. Also it takes a really long time for the RTs / cysts to die, like a really long time. It also doesn't help you actually take double, just lets you spend 5+ minutes starving out 2 RTs...
Second option requires 2 hives, and bile bomb. Marines have had the nodes long enough to have gls / weapons 2 in most cases, so this works, but it isn't as "lol easy" as you are implying. I think most people are specifically talking about taking and holding double early game, when it matters the most.
Firstly I want to express that veil is by far my favourite map and I really enjoy playing it. It prompts some sort of nostalgia and I really enjoy the style and athmosphere on this map.
IMO the map gives advantages to the alien team, especially when playing with 12 or less players.
<ul><li><b>Marines always start at the same position</b></li><li><b>Marines only have two routes to the core of the map</b> I understand that this is due to historical reasons. The concept of always spawning at control as marine might be something that works in ns1, but as for ns2 I feel like this map isn't just made for this. As soon as aliens obtain Skylights or Topo it becomes very hard to reclaim those nozzles as a marine. It often becomes a battlefield where players rush in and zerg. As soon as one of those points are claimed by the alien team marines lose 50 % of their paths to the core of the map. </li><li><b>The distance between nanogrid and control is way too far</b> This is sorta related to the first two points. Aliens - especially in early stages of the game - have a HUGE mobility advantage. This advantage is enhanced by the short paths between the alien hive positions and the vents. It's far too easy to claim and defend double res as alien team.</li></ul>
The only way to win this as a marine is playing overly aggressive in the first 10 minutes, claiming double res and a tech point in the first minutes of the game. If this fails the game is usually lost for marines.
To sum it up, I believe that aliens - having their general mobility advantage - gain a huge mobility advantage by the vents and short paths between hives and important res nozzle. Additionally marines are at a disadvantage due to their lack of mobility in early stages of the game and the relatively long routes between the res nozzles.
Those problems might be solved by enabling both teams to spawn in all tech points.
Currently, in our competitive play (Mercury), it's always preferred to spawn in Cargo or Sub as aliens, giving us the opportunity to quickly expand to Nano and lock that down. This has become the go-to strategy for most competitive games that we see, since early game it's very, very easy for aliens to hold Nano (plenty of vents and ambush spots). However, if you spawn in Pipeline, that strategy is not viable since you either have to cyst through East Junction (marine territory) or all the way through Cargo, which is slow and expends a lot of tres.
The Nano-expand might be too strong a tactic, but if spawning in Pipeline means you're in a weaker position because you can't do what you'd do in 66% of the games, that doesn't feel right.
This is a thread for the competative scene. We do not play with less than 12, its always 12. And no, this map is not alien favoured. This is the most marine biased map of them all, and if you think otherwise, you are using the wrong strategies.
Shortening the distance from marine start to nano is a huge mistake, and would make it even easier for rines. We dont want that.
And if you increase the number of paths to marine start, base rushes becomes to viable. We dont want that either. (and wtf, if rines cant hold topo or west that game SHOULD be over)
I have heard romours about making west and topo a tech point and removing control as marine start, and in the process adding random spawns on this map for rines.
We have three maps at the moment that is playable, please dont make that only two.
Hmm topo and skylights a techpoint with control a normal RT..... that's actually not too bad of a compromise. Removes the veil legacy a bit but would work better in NS2 IMO.
i disagree. the map is too small for 5 tech points to work, and we don't want to shorten distances any more from hives to marine start. control is fine. if the goal is to delay nano, i would suggest adding a small u-bend in the corridor from topo to east junction (moving the vent opening there down to east junction), and closing the path from the north part of system waypointing into nano (that way marines have to walk around all the little ramps to get into nano until they get jetpacks or boost each other over it.
veil is fine...as fine as any other balanced map.
why not work on revising a different NS1 map?
bottom line is doesnt matter what small changes are made here or there because its up to the gameplay dynamics and the players.
no map designer can fix that nor should it be their responsibility.
@waxxan WTF? You're a playtester, surely you have a forum for this sort of thing, rather than necroing a thread which actually has nothing to do with the presence or absence of cracks in the map...
Mineshaft is the only one which is over 10 RTs. Of the 3 competitive maps, they're 9, 10, and 10 RTs. I'm not sure what two RTs you would remove to accommodate system and dome. C12 and overlook? Or topo and west?
put sky and topo more south, make C12 and overlook connectrooms / siegerooms without RTs and put the RTs in System and Dome.
Comments
Well maybe you're special or something. Every time I have tried it, even people on my team tried it, it doesn't work.
At the moment if marines use nano to move their focus quickly from one hive to another, it takes aliens too long to respond. It's also very slow for aliens to use the vents in nano to respond to threats in nano; so they take the doors and get picked off easily. I think that making the vents under nano more direct would let aliens cross the map quicked to respond to marine map control, and encourage the use of vents in nano making it harder for marines to keep hold.
yes? no?
Support and adortation for the map seems to be only defended with nostalgia goggles as none of the original NS1 characteristics of the map hold fun in the current game. My only suggestion for retaining the shape of the map while balancing it would be to lengthen the corridors in the southern portion of the map from West Junction to Cargo Transfer to C12.
Support and adortation for the map seems to be only defended with nostalgia goggles as none of the original NS1 characteristics of the map hold fun in the current game. My only suggestion for retaining the shape of the map while balancing it would be to lengthen the corridors in the southern portion of the map from West Junction to Cargo Transfer to C12.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're in the competitive forums. The only form of gameplay typically used in thought experiments is 6v6. In competitive games, the exact opposite of what you posted is true. Veil is generally regarded a marine favored map because aliens have such a hard time expanding. If aliens can take double, they generally lose it a few minutes later to a strong marine push. If aliens can't take double, they're stuck on 2 'safe' RTs in their hive locations and generally have a hard time holding their third natural RT (overlook or c-12). Marines typically take the map -- bouncing up to 5-7 harvesters within the first few minutes.
You're right that the marines start in no-where land, but as soon as they get a phasegate out on the map then veil becomes much smaller. For example, a phase gate in double, system, dome, or even c-12 suddenly makes the entire map about the same distance for aliens or marines.
I think this would be interesting to play test. Does any one else agree? Over look and C-12/The Neck areas would still be interesting as phase gate locations.
1. 4 techpoints instead of 5
<ul><li>Aliens need two hives to survive or they are dead. With the usual 5 techpoints, aliens have more expansion options to secure 2nd hive. </li><li>With only 3 available techpoints for aliens, it is possible for marines to lockdown 2 hives, ending the game for aliens, something that isn't possible with 5 techpoints.</li><li>In a lategame standoff, it is typical for marines to secure 2nd techpoint. On other maps, aliens can still have 3 hives lategame to break standoff; on veil, typical marine one-hive lockdown keeps aliens off 3-hive tech.</li></ul>
2. Deviating from the "hub" layout of typical ns2 maps
<ul><li>Typical ns2 maps like <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Ns2_summit" target="_blank">Summit </a>are arranged in a hub pattern, with techpoints in a ring around the edge, and "expansion" res placed halfway b/w tech points on the ring. NS2 is balanced such that aliens need 2 hives and 3 RT's to compete with marines. </li><li>On the typical hub layout, aliens can drop 2 hives, hive RT's, and the RT in between for a stable income from 3 RT's. The expansion RT is typically a long distance from marine start and can be defended by aliens reinforcing on both sides. Each techpoint allows aliens to expand in two directions.</li><li>On veil, aliens still get 2 hive rt's but the 3rd, either C-12 or Overlook, is closer to marines and farther from hives, and thus harder to defend. Cargo, the middle hive, has no expansion RT. Pipeline and Sub only have one possible expansion RT rather than two.</li><li>Consequently, it is harder for aliens to hold RT's on veil than other maps.</li></ul>
3. Inclusion of double resource node
<ul><li>Double res nozzles on a map usually favour marines. Because of phase gates, marines can beacon and instantly reinforce against an attack.</li><li>On veil, nanogrid status is far from alien hives and difficult for aliens to defend. In a evenly-matched game, aliens can hold two hives or double, but not both. Since one-hive aliens are not viable, aliens cannot hold double, and marines consequently gain a decisive resource advantage</li></ul>
CONCLUSION: It is not so much that veil is imbalanced as, owing to its origins in NS1, it is balanced for NS1 rather than NS2. NS2 is balanced for maps with 5 techpoints in a hub layout, not for veil's 4 techpoints and ns1-style 3-hive layout. Therefore, to improve veil's competitive balance, it would be logical to remove one of these 3 factors which favour marines.
The change that makes the most sense to me would be to split up double, and move one of the res nozzles down to approximately <a href="http://wikiwiki.jp/ns2jp/?plugin=attach&refer=%A5%DE%A5%C3%A5%D7&openfile=ns2_veil_minimap.jpg" target="_blank">Y junction</a>. This gives both cargo the natural expansion that it logically should have, removes the double res point which favours marines, and is much easier to implement than addressing either of the first two issues which would require fundamental changes to the map.
What?! Really? I don't think refinery does anything better than any other map except perhaps "steal signature rooms right out of quake3 maps"
Rebalancing veil would be a touchy subject, but I think some parts do need some reworking. Cargo hive room, and Nanogrid strike me as the biggest problem areas. There are also things down the line in terms of game balance that will have an impact the way the 4 techpoint maps play (gorge tunnels).
If you really wanted to take a butcher knife to the map, you could try and do something like moving one or both of the double RTs elsewhere on the map, and making Nanogrid back into a techpoint room, making it a 5 techpoint map. But I think it's still worth experimenting with 4 techpoint maps in ns2, especially with the supposed upcoming gorge tunnels depending on how they are implemented. They play very differently than the typical X layout of the 5 techpoint maps, to me that's refreshing to have different layouts be viable.
But again, even if you make it to the top, surviving up there isn't trivial if they have turrets and an obs. They can hit you even when you stand way back inside of the vent. Due to the angle of where bilebomb fires, this doesn't give you much room to do anything, and if they have jetpacks you're just plain screwed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nanogrid is the most easily bileable location in any map. You can practically do it outside of line of sight (bar marines forming a human pyramid on top of the extractor). You don't do it at the top of the vent. You do it slightly below, on top of a clog platform.
Also it doesn't take long to clog up the vent at all if you do it right.
Also it doesn't take long to clog up the vent at all if you do it right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true. I used to think otherwise, but I've tested it myself with my fellow clanmates. If the Gorge seats himself on a clog slightly below floor level of the vent, he can destroy the power node with complete impunity; nothing short of Jetpacks or Grenades will remove him. If he's at vent height, you can stand on the extractor and shoot through the corner of the vent and kill him pretty quick, but if he drops a bit you are SOL.
Not really good map design, in my opinion.
a few other thoughts, some have already been said:
-vents need to be taller so that gorges can evolve in them.
-cargo should have something in the rear of the room like a forklift or boom so they can get altitude to fight jetpackers mid-game. cargo hive really is a huge liability in the mid-game due to jetpacks.
As marines, one method our team does to take nano is to try to break the cyst chains running into nano. After that, we wait until the room begins to rot then do our push.
As aliens, you go into one of the back vents in nano and go gorge. From there, clog jump your way up the vent and proceed to bilebomb nano.
As aliens, you go into one of the back vents in nano and go gorge. From there, clog jump your way up the vent and proceed to bilebomb nano.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The first one takes a really long time, and the alien comm can spam cysts pretty quickly. This forces you to shoot cysts which makes it pretty easy for skulks to clean you up. It can work, but it is by no means an easy win against a competent team. Also it takes a really long time for the RTs / cysts to die, like a really long time. It also doesn't help you actually take double, just lets you spend 5+ minutes starving out 2 RTs...
Second option requires 2 hives, and bile bomb. Marines have had the nodes long enough to have gls / weapons 2 in most cases, so this works, but it isn't as "lol easy" as you are implying. I think most people are specifically talking about taking and holding double early game, when it matters the most.
IMO the map gives advantages to the alien team, especially when playing with 12 or less players.
<ul><li><b>Marines always start at the same position</b></li><li><b>Marines only have two routes to the core of the map</b>
I understand that this is due to historical reasons. The concept of always spawning at control as marine might be something that works in ns1, but as for ns2 I feel like this map isn't just made for this. As soon as aliens obtain Skylights or Topo it becomes very hard to reclaim those nozzles as a marine. It often becomes a battlefield where players rush in and zerg. As soon as one of those points are claimed by the alien team marines lose 50 % of their paths to the core of the map. </li><li><b>The distance between nanogrid and control is way too far</b>
This is sorta related to the first two points. Aliens - especially in early stages of the game - have a HUGE mobility advantage. This advantage is enhanced by the short paths between the alien hive positions and the vents. It's far too easy to claim and defend double res as alien team.</li></ul>
The only way to win this as a marine is playing overly aggressive in the first 10 minutes, claiming double res and a tech point in the first minutes of the game. If this fails the game is usually lost for marines.
To sum it up, I believe that aliens - having their general mobility advantage - gain a huge mobility advantage by the vents and short paths between hives and important res nozzle. Additionally marines are at a disadvantage due to their lack of mobility in early stages of the game and the relatively long routes between the res nozzles.
Those problems might be solved by enabling both teams to spawn in all tech points.
Just my 0,02 €.
Currently, in our competitive play (Mercury), it's always preferred to spawn in Cargo or Sub as aliens, giving us the opportunity to quickly expand to Nano and lock that down. This has become the go-to strategy for most competitive games that we see, since early game it's very, very easy for aliens to hold Nano (plenty of vents and ambush spots). However, if you spawn in Pipeline, that strategy is not viable since you either have to cyst through East Junction (marine territory) or all the way through Cargo, which is slow and expends a lot of tres.
The Nano-expand might be too strong a tactic, but if spawning in Pipeline means you're in a weaker position because you can't do what you'd do in 66% of the games, that doesn't feel right.
Shortening the distance from marine start to nano is a huge mistake, and would make it even easier for rines.
We dont want that.
And if you increase the number of paths to marine start, base rushes becomes to viable.
We dont want that either. (and wtf, if rines cant hold topo or west that game SHOULD be over)
I have heard romours about making west and topo a tech point and removing control as marine start, and in the process adding random spawns on this map for rines.
We have three maps at the moment that is playable, please dont make that only two.
why not work on revising a different NS1 map?
bottom line is doesnt matter what small changes are made here or there because its up to the gameplay dynamics and the players.
no map designer can fix that nor should it be their responsibility.
put sky and topo more south, make C12 and overlook connectrooms / siegerooms without RTs and put the RTs in System and Dome.
Pretty big job really. Not sure if it would work
Tnx for gravedigging
Pretty pcitures are always worthy of a little necromancy, CCt.