NS2_Veil feedback
fmpone
Join Date: 2011-07-05 Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
Join Date: 2011-07-05 Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
Hey guys.
So I'd like to start a dialogue about the competitive play of Veil. Here are some of my objectives.
-Closely preserve the current look of each room, and the general layout
-Attain as close to 50/50 balance as possible, without making drastic sacrifices
-Achieve a critical consensus of where we stand.
Known issues:
-Subsector is a bit campable. To address this, I've designed the following solution:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/IoaP0.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
This should limit vent bileboming, protect eggs a bit, and improve performance by allowing me more occlusion.
-Cargo is huge
I know, and I'm not sure I want to do anything about it. This may end up being something I need a bit of help with on the gameplay balance side, to make huge rooms a bit more balanced.
So I'd like to start a dialogue about the competitive play of Veil. Here are some of my objectives.
-Closely preserve the current look of each room, and the general layout
-Attain as close to 50/50 balance as possible, without making drastic sacrifices
-Achieve a critical consensus of where we stand.
Known issues:
-Subsector is a bit campable. To address this, I've designed the following solution:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/IoaP0.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
This should limit vent bileboming, protect eggs a bit, and improve performance by allowing me more occlusion.
-Cargo is huge
I know, and I'm not sure I want to do anything about it. This may end up being something I need a bit of help with on the gameplay balance side, to make huge rooms a bit more balanced.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
The size and openness of cargo, sub-sector and nano-grid ("double").
Another big problem is the lack of close res nodes to cargo -- if aliens spawn in cargo, they're pretty much screwed. This problem is really caused by the obnoxious cysts which limit both alien strategies and map design to a ridiculous degree. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the devs are willing to even consider that this might be a problem, so maps need to be designed in a very specific way (one close res node to each alien starting location) to be balanced.
I dont agree to that being a problem. 4 techs are enough, and as marines you always want to keep the aliens from getting extra hives, so you would be going for the further away tp's anyways. Expanding out of cargo is definitely a problem (and the sheer size of it), but i wouldnt want to see any more res nodes in the map... Not sure what to do about it. Easiest would be to make it not a spawn location, but that of course limits the variability of the map a bit.
But now that Marines can camp the much larger room better, and cysts slow the quick rush to setup RTs at the start of the game, and vulnerable cyst chains can be broken while Marines siege double, this isn't true anymore.
Sub-sector and Cargo are easy to egg camp. Cargo especially... If everyone just runs through and goes for the window quickly, they can hold the area for ages. PG with powerpack, and the powernode isn't necessary.
I somewhat disagree with the Cargos lack of close res nodes being a huge problem, but this is due to the way I see aliens have to be played in this patch: quick second hive and try and hold on to 2-3 rts, hive res included, until leap and cele/cara begin to make aliens effective. I actually consider Sub as the worst starting location. The overlook is really expensive to hold and the way from Sub to Cargo is through the huge wide Y-junction area. This makes the hive really isolated and vulnerable. From cargo at least you can cyst to pipeline and then C-12, so you get 2 hives and 3 rts that are defensible. Also, having cargo as starting hive makes you less vulnerable to the inevitable 4-5 minute mark push for PG at cargo window ;)
The lack of 5th tech location is pretty unforgiving. Since both teams absolutely need that 2nd hive up to do well after the 8-10 minute mark, once you lose your toehold on 2nd tech point, that usually is it. Not a bad mechanic really, but kinda tends to make for somewhat repetitive play. The only question mark seems to be the double; whether to cap it or just deny it.
All in all, I really like the map, and wouldn't flag for 5th tech location. I'd look for ways to make Sub a bit easier to expand from and make Cargo smaller or less open. At least in current build, the map seems to favour marines slightly, but this of course could change with other builds, so I don't see need to go making drastic changes right now.
Thanks for the map ;)
If I am Marines, I lose. If I am Aliens I lose.
Pipeline is a brilliantly designed hive, great protection to the hive, works well. Sub, well the ramp up to the hive means marines can sit at the end and snipe Aliens before they get halfway down the slope. Maybe an alternative route, or a zig-zag ramp instead of a straight one?
Cargo, I don't think the issue is that the room is too big, but it needs to be filled out inside more. Maybe designed more as if cargo was actually stored in there....
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/michael-polzia-aerial-view-of-the-hamburg-harbor-container-terminal_i-G-38-3876-QMEJF00Z.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Actually, System Waypointing and Dome used to be THE most strategic locations on the map for Marines.
Controlling that with a PG setup in NS1 cuts off a decent chunk of the map (2 hives and relatively easy access to Dbl). Adding a RT into there would just make it worse. Granted, PGs now end up in tech points to defend/restock with armories and protect the chair.
Use the vents in the cieling for cover on that ramp.
'
And hopefully physics changes fix it so you can't also climb into the west skylights vent.
This.
Marine accessible vents help reduce the frequency of vent-sniping by lerks/bilebombing gorges.
Agreed
But all in all maybe lower the ceiling a bit and make the room a tiny bit smaller maybe but that's about it, I really don't want to see any more boxes or anything so marines can actually kill it without jetpacks too: 5skulks even without leap are pretty much always going to win 5 marines if you put more boxes in there where they can lurk and attack simultaneously.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/YEY8I.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The boxes you implemented make the room a little bit better, but I'm not sure it's enough. The boxes wouldn't be needed if the room was scaled down like, 10-20%.
But atleast this change can be done without weeks of delay. Think of how long it would take to get a version of veil with a lower ceiling....
The corridor which connects cargo and dome is a bit too thin, deathlock for fades. Sub is a bit too open aswell box on the overlook side of sub and one in the back would be cool.
Alien friendly boxes!
The corridor which connects cargo and dome is a bit too thin, deathlock for fades. Sub is a bit too open aswell box on the overlook side of sub and one in the back would be cool.
Alien friendly boxes!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm generally comfortable with marines going in vents, since theres only arbitrary ways to prevent it, and you can never truly prevent it, so why not embrace it and let the chips fall where they may. I think it's very neutral as well in terms of providing an advantage on Veil.
I'll be sure to add more boxes to the open areas :D
This wasn't that much of a problem in NS1 due to the aliens' ability to teleport to hives due to movement chambers. However say the aliens are off defending pipeline, marines beacon, phase to nanogrid, and can destroy the subsector hive with little if any resistance, because it takes much longer for the aliens to reach the other side.
All other things being equal (e.g. equally skilled players) the marines are almost guaranteed to win if they control nanogrid, even if the aliens manage to get three hives.
In NS2 the marines are supposed to be slow moving anywhere, and highly dependent upon moving in a group. This map throws that concept right out the window, creating a massive imbalance.
Possible ways of fixing this would make it so that it isn't so easy for marines to defend. The aliens have to travel down a hallway with no cover, and once they get in they have even less cover. It would be one thing if the vents provided quick access to it, but they don't, it simply takes too long to travel that way, and if the marines have an obs there, the aliens get shot at by the turrets long before they even enter the room.
If a gorge could bilebomb the room from the vent, that would be one thing, but they can't. It won't let you egg in that vent, and if they have an obs in there, the turrets will kill you easily anyways..
Even if the aliens gain control over nanogrid, it doesn't offer them the same huge advantage that it offers the marines. Sure they get the resources, but that's about it. If you put the eggs in there, it can be somewhat centralized, but that does nothing to help the aliens that are already alive.
so you mean that a map with a non-ring structure but a concrete circle will lead to this problem?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This wasn't that much of a problem in NS1 due to the aliens' ability to teleport to hives due to movement chambers. However say the aliens are off defending pipeline, marines beacon, phase to nanogrid, and can destroy the subsector hive with little if any resistance, because it takes much longer for the aliens to reach the other side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i would say this is a problem for every single map in the current game setting. i am one of those who lobby for the ability to teleport to hives.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All other things being equal (e.g. equally skilled players) the marines are almost guaranteed to win if they control nanogrid, even if the aliens manage to get three hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
4 tech points on veil as far as i know. so if aliens got three hives... you sure marines can win? what are those aliens doing?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a gorge could bilebomb the room from the vent, that would be one thing, but they can't. It won't let you egg in that vent, and if they have an obs in there, the turrets will kill you easily anyways..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i am pretty sure that i once egged there and bilebomed the whole room...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even if the aliens gain control over nanogrid, it doesn't offer them the same huge advantage that it offers the marines. Sure they get the resources, but that's about it. If you put the eggs in there, it can be somewhat centralized, but that does nothing to help the aliens that are already alive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if nano is so important as you said, distracting them from getting hives is not good enough...?
Tram - 10
Summit - 9
Docking - 10
Refining - 10
Mineshaft - 12
Mineshaft is the only one which is over 10 RTs. Of the 3 competitive maps, they're 9, 10, and 10 RTs. I'm not sure what two RTs you would remove to accommodate system and dome. C12 and overlook? Or topo and west?
No. Nanogrid is too easy to defend, in addition to being too centrally located. If the map was bigger, maybe. If nanogrid had more points of entry, maybe.
<!--quoteo(post=2010712:date=Nov 5 2012, 02:08 AM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lofung @ Nov 5 2012, 02:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i would say this is a problem for every single map in the current game setting. i am one of those who lobby for the ability to teleport to hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really. I've found that its about even money for either team to control the central points in all maps, except for this one.
<!--quoteo(post=2010712:date=Nov 5 2012, 02:08 AM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lofung @ Nov 5 2012, 02:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4 tech points on veil as far as i know. so if aliens got three hives... you sure marines can win? what are those aliens doing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen it happen more than once. It's too easy for the marines to snipe one of those hives, and once it is gone the marines can turtle both locations. The game as it currently is favors marines the longer the game lasts, so the aliens inevitably lose.
<!--quoteo(post=2010712:date=Nov 5 2012, 02:08 AM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lofung @ Nov 5 2012, 02:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i am pretty sure that i once egged there and bilebomed the whole room...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Must have happened during beta or something. You can't do it. The best you can do is egg at the bottom of the shaft, and then build your way up using clogs, but that takes a LONG time, and is incredibly annoying to do because you often slip or get stuck.
But again, even if you make it to the top, surviving up there isn't trivial if they have turrets and an obs. They can hit you even when you stand way back inside of the vent. Due to the angle of where bilebomb fires, this doesn't give you much room to do anything, and if they have jetpacks you're just plain screwed.
<!--quoteo(post=2010712:date=Nov 5 2012, 02:08 AM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lofung @ Nov 5 2012, 02:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if nano is so important as you said, distracting them from getting hives is not good enough...?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really. All they have to do is build a phase gate and turrets adjacent to nanogrid, then it is pretty easy for them to push through your fortifications. That leaves you having to defend two locations at once just to hold a single location.
no. the last time i played ns2 back in beta veil isnt even there.