Why marines can recycle but alien's don't?
Price
Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
<div class="IPBDescription">seriously, why?</div>why is it possible for a marine to recycle structures but aliens not.
Most situations are:
1-2 skulks bite a extractor...it took about 22 seconds for one skulk, i think at 8-10 seconds the commander sold his extractor so before aliens kill it, its gone.
So a skulk waste 22 seconds for nothing, while the marine commander is laughing in his chair.
What is the sense allow marines that? If you are alien and kill a rt its always like you hear his "trolololo" after he sold his rt...and a good marine commander will always sell his rts.
The alien commander is like getting trolled, one single marine is going to axe every of his harvesters and the only thing the alien com can do is watching all his harvesters gone.
it takes about 16,5 seconds for a marine to kill a harvester with a axe.
think about how fast are more marines but the marine can sell his rts
So how is this balance? In any way?
Why aliens can't get their resources back, but marines can?
(EDit: ups wrong thread, i want it in general...)
Most situations are:
1-2 skulks bite a extractor...it took about 22 seconds for one skulk, i think at 8-10 seconds the commander sold his extractor so before aliens kill it, its gone.
So a skulk waste 22 seconds for nothing, while the marine commander is laughing in his chair.
What is the sense allow marines that? If you are alien and kill a rt its always like you hear his "trolololo" after he sold his rt...and a good marine commander will always sell his rts.
The alien commander is like getting trolled, one single marine is going to axe every of his harvesters and the only thing the alien com can do is watching all his harvesters gone.
it takes about 16,5 seconds for a marine to kill a harvester with a axe.
think about how fast are more marines but the marine can sell his rts
So how is this balance? In any way?
Why aliens can't get their resources back, but marines can?
(EDit: ups wrong thread, i want it in general...)
Comments
It is worth noting, if the power is out in a room you cannot recycle anything in it. But since powernodes cost nothing I tend to always spend my time trying to get the extractor. If power nodes cost something (5 res or so, thats about the cost of cysts to cover a room) then you would have a nice new form of harassment and it would slow down the massive, inevitable, marine expansion
Part of the idea behind marines being able to recycle, is that it's harder for them to get their structures up in the first place as they <b>require</b> a marine or more to be present for it to build.
How quickly marines can move around the map and take down alien harvesters are their own, separate issues.
Part of the idea behind marines being able to recycle, is that it's harder for them to get their structures up in the first place as they <b>require</b> a marine or more to be present for it to build.
How quickly marines can move around the map and take down alien harvesters are their own, separate issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its harder to get a structure up as marine? You think? Hold e for instant build vs plonk the harvester down and wait an age, or have someone play gorge (spend 10 res) to make it slightly faster. Now, if you had to have a welder to build the structure at the current rate and without one build it at a much reduced rate then fair enough, but as is I find it much easier to spread everywhere as marine. You also dont have to wait for cyst to cover a harvester panel and you have better vision (actually see aliens vs see a black smudge)
I'll never hear the sound, there is realy a recycle sound? maybe it get over"sounded" by bite sound then.
And i never stop biting, even if marines next to me and most time its a success, except if a marine com sold the rt and it don't matter if its just 1 resource (most times he start recycle earlier i guess) but its very frustrating for an alien to bite it and its recycled.
<!--quoteo(post=1966605:date=Aug 25 2012, 09:40 AM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Aug 25 2012, 09:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you know, the percentage of resources that marines get back from recycling goes down according to how much health the structure has, so if you get the building close to destroyed as it is recycled the enemy com is really only getting 0-1 resources back..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, after searching i know now its not 100% res back it said just "kRecyclePaybackScalar = 0.75".
<b>it is not only the extractor, marines can sell all.</b>
but most times it is not just 1 res, many skulks parasite the extractor from distance, so the com already know and if he check the map in a sec, he sold the rt and the extractor is sold so i guess its about 2-3 res and if its add more and more res if there more extractors gone.
While the alien commander can do nothing to save res or his harvester, just scream in his mic that his team should defend it :P
1-3 res is better then 0 res.
<!--quoteo(post=1966605:date=Aug 25 2012, 09:40 AM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Aug 25 2012, 09:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Part of the idea behind marines being able to recycle, is that it's harder for them to get their structures up in the first place as they <b>require</b> a marine or more to be present for it to build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, thats right, but marines can also use macs, okay they cost more but alien structures took long before there finaly builded up, while marines walk most times in team and build up a extractor in like 2 seconds (not 100% sure but it was realy fast).
<!--quoteo(post=1966605:date=Aug 25 2012, 09:40 AM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Aug 25 2012, 09:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How quickly marines can move around the map and take down alien harvesters are their own, separate issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very quick, and you don't have to kill the harvester, just cut most of their cysts in some seconds.
And the harvester will gone faster then in 16 seconds.
Okay maybe it took longer to kill a harvester, because marines are a bit slower then skulks but they have ranged attack, so i don't know why harvester die 6 seconds faster then extractors, i mean aliens need energy to attack and if they attack a extractor and a powernode it took way longer then marines kill cyts and harvester.
<!--quoteo(post=1966608:date=Aug 25 2012, 09:48 AM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Aug 25 2012, 09:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966608"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->marines need at least one person to build it. and then he can be killed doing that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While marine building two extractors, the harvester of alien's isn't up.
A harvester need 60 seconds to build up (kHarvesterBuildTime = 60) and thats not all, the alien commander have to build a line of cysts to the harvester.
So it cost res and much time and only one 10 res gorge can speed up that a bit but he is so weak, if one single marine arive he is dead.
You say a marine can be killed doing that, you know he has a rifle with ranged attack and the skulk have to be at the marine to attack him? and the marines have nanoshield and medpacks?
Aliens are harder then you think.
Yeah, after searchning i know now its not 100% res back it said just "kRecyclePaybackScalar = 0.75".
but it is not only the extractor, marines can sell all.
And i never stop biting, even if marines next to me and most time its a success, except if a marine com sold the rt and it don't matter if its just 1 resource (most times he start recycle earlier i guess) but its very frustrating for an alien to bite it and its recycled.
its like attacking a enemy and before he die, he disapear you know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
75% of the tres is returned if the structure is at 100% health.
If the structure is at 10% health then you get 10% of 75%, or 7.5% of tres back.
It scales based on the health of the building. If you almost kill an extractor and then it is recycled, then the commander gets very little tres back from it. There is nothing overpowered about recycling.
If the structure is at 10% health then you get 10% of 75%, or 7.5% of tres back.
It scales based on the health of the building. If you almost kill an extractor and then it is recycled, then the commander gets very little tres back from it. There is nothing overpowered about recycling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but it is not only the extractor and like i said (after edit) most skulks parasite the extractor so the com already know and if the extractor is far away, he can sold it because no marine save it.
But aliens can do nothing, all harvesters are gone.
Let me tell you a situation, aliens have 9 res and no harvester, they are doomed.
Marines have 9 res and no exractor, just sell the armory (or obs or any other structure), build a extractor and build the armory again.
That was way better with getting Reward-res by killing.
So your team get reward from killing enemys.
I mean now the builder gorge is gone and more people are going "fighter" lifeform but the game don't reward you for kills.
to much e-sports? it feels like the dynamic of the game has gone for esports.
What I am trying to say, is that the situation you are describing, is not a game state we should really be worrying about, because the game is already over.
And if you think it is then consider that marines need a significant amount more resources to be as effective as aliens.
I would be more concerned with relative expansion and building times.
What I am trying to say, is that the situation you are describing, is not a game state we should really be worrying about, because the game is already over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was an example, it could be a second marine base, it is under attack and the com just sell all the strucutres such as ip, cc and on and he get res back.
If marines rush a second or third hive, all the alien stuff is gone no single res point.
Thats my point.
And marines can use that res for jetpacks or just new resource towers.
If aliens lost a hive, all the res are gone, whips, crags and all the other chambers are useless now.
<!--quoteo(post=1966621:date=Aug 25 2012, 11:12 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Aug 25 2012, 11:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Recycling is not that big of a deal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>75% of 10 res are still 7,5 res... and you will tell me thats not "big of a deal?
If marines build a outpost with phasegate, powerpack, armory, sentrys and on.
Com see his marines dying by 2 onoes (:P) and he can start selling long time ago before onoes arrive.
So it gives him like 7,5(armory)+7,5(sentry)+11(pg)+7,5(obs)+11(powerpack)=~44 res back and thats "not that big of a deal"?</b>
Marines can only build with fixed p.nodes active, Aliens can only build when they place their own cysts.
Alien infestation denies marine construction; marine powered-areas do not deny alien construction.
Alien structures can be buffed by other alien structures (Crag, shade), marine structures do not synergise with each other.
but im more concerned about how fast marines can capture RTs in the beginning of the game, compared to aliens. aliens need to spend way more resources (due to cysts) and need 3 - 4 additional clicks / steps whereas the marine comm simply clicks the RT icon. yes, marines need to build power nodes, but initially the construction time is only 3 seconds and those are for free, which absolutely fits to the fiction but it creates a basic imbalance in the economy between the two teams. i like that assymetry, recycle vs auto construct, nano shield vs ezyme cloud etc (can't really pick features one by one to find counterparts, it's more the whole picture when comparing both commander which i like), but not when it's about the fundamentals, economy and thus the value of resources. it really causes head ache that lets say 5 resources have a different value for the teams when trying to balance the game.
Marine recycle also is not perfect. They only get a % res return based on health of structure.
I do agree though, it would be nice if aliens commander could react more than screaming down his mic when a structure is under attack. Being able to echo harvesters around maybe? Or give harvesters a "defensive mode", where it will withdrawn into the infestation on the ground for 1 minute. For that minute, no res will come from it. Can save the RT, but if done unnecessarily will cost the alien commander alot of res.
Marines can only build with fixed p.nodes active, Aliens can only build when they place their own cysts.
Alien infestation denies marine construction; marine powered-areas do not deny alien construction.
Alien structures can be buffed by other alien structures (Crag, shade), marine structures do not synergise with each other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Autobuild yeah, but the time and cost of that is to high.
Alien commander have to build a line of cysts, wait for them to be finished, build the harvester, wait till its finished...
If you compare this whole time to marines, you will see its not a good thing.
Marines build more stuff, while aliens autobuild.
<!--quoteo(post=1966635:date=Aug 25 2012, 12:35 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Aug 25 2012, 12:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966635"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->as MistenTH wrote, it's about assymetry. aliens have auto build, they don't need the attention of any field player, as a trade off they don't have recycle. initially the alien commander could not even cancel any researches.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, how can you compare recycle with autobuild?
I mean marines can <b>build everywhere</b>, aliens have to build cysts and if the alien com ( in north) build like end (south) of the map a harvester, he is forced to spend a lot of cysts(res+time to wait finish cysts) to build up one single harvester (again 60 seconds.).
Marine commander can place a extractor and marines build it, no time to wait.
also a extractor takes 10 seconds with one marine, while the auto build takes 60 seconds.
<u>example:</u>
Marine commander build 5 extractor on the map, the marines spread out and build them.
So while these marines have finished these 5 extractors with powernodes, the aliens got one harvester done, thats balance?
Sure the marines/extractor can be killed, but same with the harvester which cost 10 res + cysts/res, the marines can recycle the extractor + lost just a free marine and depend on extractor health, res.
Why not forbid marines recycling a attacked structure?
Edit:
the first game i join (after this comment) and marines already got 3 extractors while aliens are placing cysts, and thats only after a min.
both com just join later, so the "real" game takes about 45 seconds.
<img src="http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9502/47s226.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
after 2 minutes, the aliens got 3 harvester but still only at 60% done while marines have 3 rts and thats just with 3 vs 3 but the alien time would'nt increase but the marines build time, because more player, faster they build.
<img src="http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/4784/a23bt.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
So while these marines have finished these 5 extractors with powernodes, the aliens got one harvester done, thats balance?
Sure the marines/extractor can be killed, but same with the harvester which cost 10 res + cysts/res, the marines can recycle the extractor + lost just a free marine and depend on extractor health, res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's what I meant before, i see this as the main issue, not recycle. but to stay on topic: right now extractors continue collecting during the recycle process and you can even cancel recycling. 2 things that should be changed in my opinion, making recycle more a decision you need to make, where in some cases it's better to not mindlessly press the button.
yeah im drifting away, i was just talking about auto build isn't a counterpart to recycle.
i would like to see something that prevent marines from recycle if they structure is under attack that would be fair.
If marines build a outpost with phasegate, powerpack, armory, sentrys and on.
Com see his marines dying by 2 onoes (:P) and he can start selling long time ago before onoes arrive.
So it gives him like 7,5(armory)+7,5(sentry)+11(pg)+7,5(obs)+11(powerpack)=~44 res back and thats "not that big of a deal"?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As we've said, as the marine structures are damaged the enemy commander receives less and less money back from them, not to mention if the power is taken out in 216 recycling will be cancelled on all structures in the area until the power is brought back again.
Recycle is needed because:
- Comms (and new comms in particular) make mistakes when placing structures. Recycle is a way to help reduce this penalty
- It gives hope to aliens who are res locked (i.e. they can recycle to get enough res to redrop a harvester)
- It gives more flexibility to the alien comm who can quickly move bases around by recycling/getting back the res/dropping more relevant structures
Personally, I'd like rupture to be repurposed in an alien recycle, where the logic is that the ruptured structure gets reabsorbed into the infestation, returning res.
If marines build a outpost with phasegate, powerpack, armory, sentrys and on.
Com see his marines dying by 2 onoes (:P) and he can start selling long time ago before onoes arrive.
So it gives him like 7,5(armory)+7,5(sentry)+11(pg)+7,5(obs)+11(powerpack)=~44 res back and thats "not that big of a deal"?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you read what so many above me have said, a marine commander gets a negligible amount of resources back when recycling a structure that's getting hit. Recycling a dying RT gets you <i>maybe</i> 1-2 res back. I fail to see how that's a game breaking issue. If they are recycling things before you can even get to them, that is sort of another topic- which is also fine imo because that means marines are essentially yielding that area to your team which is about the last thing you want to do in terms of your goal of winning the game. The example you posted above me, while the marine team would get some amount of res back, they would probably lose the game. Recycling entire bases because your team is too incompetent to defend it does not seem like a balance issue, it just sounds like a game where the marines are losing badly.
also, I'll say it again: marines need a significant amount <i>more</i> resources to be as effective as aliens.
Also it seems like you are trying to argue several different topics in the thread under the pretense that recycling is OP... which one do you actually have a problem with? all of them?
1. Recycling
2. Expansion rates
3. Build times
4. Asymmetry (power system VS cysts)
...all of those are separate issues.
I guess if it still prevents marines from building on it...?
The problem aliens have: Cysts indirectly increasing the costs of harvesters by upwards of 5-10 resources more, cysts slowing down the rate of capping resource nodes, harvesters abysmal slow build time, and the pitiful amount of health harvesters have.
Marines on the contrary have zero placement constrictions, requires a marine to build, first power node is free, ghost structures refund 100%, plenty of health on extractors.
This gives marines a huge leg up at the very start of the game (first minute) as they already have 2-3 extractors up while aliens are still trying to get their second while the first one builds up. The pitiful health pool and slow build time rewards marines for ninja killing a harvester by seriously crippling alien economy. This same effect doesn't happen to marines as the extractor would have already been completely built and pulling in resources and an early recycle on an undefended extractor will still return 3-4 resources so a dead extractor would have already paid for itself. A ninja'd harvester would mean aliens are down 10+nearby cyst costs.
Marines on the contrary have zero placement constrictions, requires a marine to build, first power node is free, ghost structures refund 100%, plenty of health on extractors.
This gives marines a huge leg up at the very start of the game (first minute) as they already have 2-3 extractors up while aliens are still trying to get their second while the first one builds up. The pitiful health pool and slow build time rewards marines for ninja killing a harvester by seriously crippling alien economy. This same effect doesn't happen to marines as the extractor would have already been completely built and pulling in resources and an early recycle on an undefended extractor will still return 3-4 resources so a dead extractor would have already paid for itself. A ninja'd harvester would mean aliens are down 10+nearby cyst costs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said. This is what I think as well. Aliens have such a hard time in the early game, then get stronger once they get cara + leap, and then are behind again when marines get JP. Once you get a few fades up it's okay and eventually aliens move on to win. But aliens usually die very early on, just being unable to <b>secure </b>enough RT's.
I guess if it still prevents marines from building on it...?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could cysts not just simply build out from hives& harvestors at specific rates (ie 1 cyst every 5 seconds)?
Would go some way to addressing the issue of res investment for cycsts when marines dont have to pay for similar cost for power nodes.
Surely the same movemement that macs drifters use to navigate a fluid environment could be used to drop cysts easily enough.
But thats a side issue the marines should lose their ability to recycle, they are just as mobile if not more mobile than aliens (pgs coming up by 2-3 min mark gives marines the total mobility edge), they can repair damaged things and their extractors dont start out paper thin like harvesters do.
Sure the cost recovered might be minimal but coupled with the fact aliens already have to fork out for cysts everywhere it means marines get to invest a lot more in tech a lot sooner and can easily dominate a map within 5 min (spawn wave and the 3 cap limit just makes these situations worse..not to mention spawning as pathetic at a 25 min mark as you where at the 5 second mark of a game)
Recycle is needed because:
- Comms (and new comms in particular) make mistakes when placing structures. Recycle is a way to help reduce this penalty
- It gives hope to aliens who are res locked (i.e. they can recycle to get enough res to redrop a harvester)
- It gives more flexibility to the alien comm who can quickly move bases around by recycling/getting back the res/dropping more relevant structures
Personally, I'd like rupture to be repurposed in an alien recycle, where the logic is that the ruptured structure gets reabsorbed into the infestation, returning res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If any counterpart alien mechanic was thought necessary, I'd rather that alien structures could instead each get up and move themselves around, slowly, even harvesters(though they could only replant on res nodes).
The only structures that look like they don't have a model that would work very well animation wise for this would be the Shade and Veil.
The only structures that look like they don't have a model that would work very well animation wise for this would be the Shade and Veil.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This could work, but I don't see why we should add in something more complicated than the tried and true recycle. Asymmetry is a good thing in NS2, but the no alien recycle decision looks more like asymmetry for the sake of asymmetry that actually hurts alien gameplay.
Crags - Can easily see walking around
Shells - Yep.
Shade - Not sure. Would be funny if they flew around like a jelly fish.
Veil - Cannot see moving.
Shift - Walk around like a spider, with all those legs?
Spur - Maybe could move.
Harvester - Cannot see them walking anywhere.
Hive - Too big to walk anywhere, unless they redesigned it to have legs (which could look quite creepy)