I'm fairly certain every semi-intelligent player is going to realize that K:Ds on pub servers will not mean anything. I understand where the concern comes from about elitism I guess. afaik there will not be any rankings on the site (for pubs). Just stats.
And who doesn't like stats? Personally I like the steam ID thing, so you can see which smurf belongs to who because a lot of people seem to be unable to play with their normal handles for some reason :P And it is actually pretty cool having a public means of looking at and comparing a lot of various data.
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
Thanks everybody for your support! It's been quite a lot of work to get the stats to this point and it feels good to see people being happy to use it.
I have something to say to everybody who are concerned of servers turning into stats griding fragfest. For now there aren't many other stats except kills, deaths, lifeforms, weapons, etc basic stuff. However we will add more stats including buildings dropped, upgrades researched, lifeform upgrades, etc. These will provide much more interesting information than just the basic kills, kd, etc. I really hope this mod will bring focus to other statistics in ns2 than just kills, k:d, etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1961731:date=Aug 12 2012, 06:57 PM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Aug 12 2012, 06:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961731"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Artwork is bad ass. Gogo rantology! ;)
Anyways, I finally got this working. I should probably refrain from this stuff at 4am.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great! I'm hoping to see more servers to start using ns2stats soon. It's very easy. Just go to ns2stats.org, log in and click the "add server" button in the top navigation. There you will find installation instructions, file downloads and a unique key for each of your server.
<!--quoteo(post=1961736:date=Aug 12 2012, 07:21 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Aug 12 2012, 07:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961736"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ah, cool. Design feedback then: Have a "My Stats" link with "(requires steam login)", and a separate link/section for "Server Admins" with instructions. You should also post about this in the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showforum=118" target="_blank">server discussion</a> section since thats where a lot of the server peeps hang out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
1st i want to say: great work.
But i dont like stats-pages like this. This is my personal opinion and i dont want to criticize your hard work. KD/R is only the half truth of an good player i think.
Lets take BF3 for example with all the cool stats sites: An colleque and me where always preparing to destroy the crates while the rest of the team sitting in bushes try not to die. The others have great stats for sure but most of them playing theyr own KD/R game. So, who is the better team-player. The one sitting in the bush with an awsome KD/R or the idiots trying to destroy the crates, covering each other and trying to win the game?
A short time ago there was in discussion about removing kills in NS2. i would like to see that, score is the only thing a teambased game need.
A good gorge for example is very important for the team, but he will never on 1st place on these stats-site.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1962206:date=Aug 13 2012, 03:27 PM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ Aug 13 2012, 03:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962206"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But i dont like stats-pages like this. This is my personal opinion and i dont want to criticize your hard work. KD/R is only the half truth of an good player i think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, it's a shame it doesn't show any other statistics than k/d and doesn't rate players based on a score system.
Oh wait...
Talking about the accuracy of these kind of statistics for rating players is a fruitless discussion in any case. While it can give you some idea of a player's skill, it will never be perfectly accurate, nor should it endeavour to be. It is fun to watch your statistics and try to climb on the rankings, however, which is exactly what should be the point of such a system. This alone can be enough to convince some people to play the game.
If UWE aren't already considering releasing their own public statistics system, they should just directly implement this into the game -- by default it should be on all servers, with the option to turn it off. It will be a big selling point for the game.
Suggestion for the makers: Make the statistics distinguish between private games (passworded servers) and public games.
As long as we don't see marines camping long corridors racking up a good k:d ratio rather than running about the map actually doing something useful, looks good!
I won't be paying much attention to it but I'm sure a few out there like this kinda stuff.
supsuJoin Date: 2012-04-24Member: 151023Members, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
The general direction of this project is to get more far interesting stats than just player based kills, deaths, score and so on. We'll be focusing on map stats, economical stats, build orders and much more in the up coming weeks; player based stats was just the first part of this, and don't get me wrong even they are no-where to be done; stuff like structures builded, waypoints completed etc will be coming in future that'll give you some info about your teamplay skills so it totally won't be all about frags.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
+1
Its great to see a NS2 stats program. My only question is does it collect stats when cheats are enabled? I could see that as a problem where someone enables cheats, adds 100000 bots, and goes 100000/0 in K/D.
<!--quoteo(post=1962254:date=Aug 13 2012, 06:00 PM:name=supsu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (supsu @ Aug 13 2012, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The general direction of this project is to get more far interesting stats than just player based kills, deaths, score and so on. We'll be focusing on map stats, economical stats, build orders and much more in the up coming weeks; player based stats was just the first part of this, and don't get me wrong even they are no-where to be done. :><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I love the project and there's alot to be gained from access to this kind of statistical data. I kind of assumed that UWE had already implemented something like this behind the scenes though, otherwise how would they be making balance decisions other than by basing it subjective opinions and imperfect gametheory? Either way, better late than never!
Its great to see a NS2 stats program. My only question is does it collect stats when cheats are enabled? I could see that as a problem where someone enables cheats, adds 100000 bots, and goes 100000/0 in K/D.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bots use your own steamid afaik.
I for one don't like these kinds of stats. Makes people just farm kills or cysts instead of actually playing the game.
Its great to see a NS2 stats program. My only question is does it collect stats when cheats are enabled? I could see that as a problem where someone enables cheats, adds 100000 bots, and goes 100000/0 in K/D.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There'll be a bot check on website side that will not count rounds where bot has been in the game as part of the stats, so bot cheating won't be a problem at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1962285:date=Aug 13 2012, 09:32 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Aug 13 2012, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love the project and there's alot to be gained from access to this kind of statistical data. I kind of assumed that UWE had already implemented something like this behind the scenes though, otherwise how would they be making balance decisions other than by basing it subjective opinions and imperfect gametheory? Either way, better late than never!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UWE's stats are pretty simplified version from this. I don't think they send anything else than map, starting locations, winner and some kill stats but not with what weapon/lifeform you got the kills etc.
I'd really like to see some ELO style ranking (i.e. you gain points for every kill, lose points for each death. You get more points for killing a high ranking player.) Like people have said before, it's not a perfect ranking of skill level, but it's a fun little thing to try and climb the ranks. Perhaps give a small amount of points for things like building etc. You could also introduce awards and give like the top 10 players of the month a little award that you see on their nstats.org profile or whatever. Reset the elo ranks each month and then start again.
It would also be cool to see a kill history, showing who you have killed the most and a death history (who has killed you the most)
Here's an example of similar style stats for dod:s : <a href="http://www.ukcs.net/statsd/stats.php?q=player&uid=0789a139bc35f03a10ac2885e2a3e88a" target="_blank">http://www.ukcs.net/statsd/stats.php?q=pla...0ac2885e2a3e88a</a>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All of this has already been planned and will be in the site at some point, not probably even in the first two months though but definitely at some point.
I'd really like to see some ELO style ranking (i.e. you gain points for every kill, lose points for each death. You get more points for killing a high ranking player.) Like people have said before, it's not a perfect ranking of skill level, but it's a fun little thing to try and climb the ranks. Perhaps give a small amount of points for things like building etc. You could also introduce awards and give like the top 10 players of the month a little award that you see on their nstats.org profile or whatever. Reset the elo ranks each month and then start again.
It would also be cool to see a kill history, showing who you have killed the most and a death history (who has killed you the most)
Here's an example of similar style stats for dod:s : <a href="http://www.ukcs.net/statsd/stats.php?q=player&uid=0789a139bc35f03a10ac2885e2a3e88a" target="_blank">http://www.ukcs.net/statsd/stats.php?q=pla...0ac2885e2a3e88a</a>.
i am usually very sceptical when it comes to stats, but it seems you guys are going all the way which will probably turn out great as it will hopefully reveal any kind of abusive grinding.
one thing i'd like to know is which games are excluded from the win/loss. is there a minimum length? what happens if you join mid-game or switch teams? i really hope you consider these things. because to me, this is the most vital stat: any decent player should realise that putting effort into winning will also help most of your other stats (e.g. you gain more res and better tech making it easier to gain score and a higher KDR) and in the end, winning as a team is the ultimate goal of each match, right?
but overall, i am quite happy with this as it could have turned out a looot worse. the page looks great and there are already a lot of additional interesting stats. please keep up the great work :)
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1962452:date=Aug 14 2012, 03:07 AM:name=Laosh'Ra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laosh'Ra @ Aug 14 2012, 03:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962452"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i am usually very sceptical when it comes to stats, but it seems you guys are going all the way which will probably turn out great as it will hopefully reveal any kind of abusive grinding.
one thing i'd like to know is which games are excluded from the win/loss. is there a minimum length? what happens if you join mid-game or switch teams? i really hope you consider these things. because to me, this is the most vital stat: any decent player should realise that putting effort into winning will also help most of your other stats (e.g. you gain more res and better tech making it easier to gain score and a higher KDR) and in the end, winning as a team is the ultimate goal of each match, right?
but overall, i am quite happy with this as it could have turned out a looot worse. the page looks great and there are already a lot of additional interesting stats. please keep up the great work :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Currently there is no minimum length or minimum players needed for stats to track. However some stats including the win/loss rate require you to be play over 50 % of the round in the team.
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
We have put up a new <a href="http://www.ns2stats.org/server/index" target="_blank">servers page</a> to list all the servers that have the stats mod running in them. There's also a <a href="http://www.ns2stats.org/server/server/10" target="_blank">view</a> of each server where you can see detailed information about it. We also made <a href="http://www.ns2stats.org/map/index" target="_blank">similar for maps</a>. You can also see the win / loss statistics of each starting position. <a href="http://www.ns2stats.org/map/map/3" target="_blank">With current statistics</a> Terminal seems to be better starting position than Cafeteria for marines in Docking.
We also changed the front page player lists to show data for the past 24 hours making it easier for any skilled player to get some visibility there without need to grind for days.
Next we'll focus on creating a nice view for each round, as well as couple of other features we're very excited about.
urinalcakeCan't work a sound cardUnited StatesJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7799Members
Hey Zeikko, Because I think you hail from the Dystopia community, by chance did any of your inspiration come from <a href="http://www.dystopia-stats.com" target="_blank">http://www.dystopia-stats.com</a> ?
Really cool, tram seems to have some problems with random spawn as well, although the numbers are a bit low (you could compute some confidence interval on the ratio).
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1962319:date=Aug 13 2012, 12:57 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 13 2012, 12:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962319"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd really like to see some ELO style ranking (i.e. you gain points for every kill, lose points for each death. You get more points for killing a high ranking player.) Like people have said before, it's not a perfect ranking of skill level, but it's a fun little thing to try and climb the ranks. Perhaps give a small amount of points for things like building etc. You could also introduce awards and give like the top 10 players of the month a little award that you see on their nstats.org profile or whatever. Reset the elo ranks each month and then start again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Usually, Elo-rankings are based solely on wins/losses. For example, I've always thought this system used by <a href="http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/" target="_blank">AoE3</a> would work pretty well with NS2.
supsuJoin Date: 2012-04-24Member: 151023Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1963559:date=Aug 15 2012, 08:35 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 15 2012, 08:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Usually, Elo-rankings are based solely on wins/losses. For example, I've always thought this system used by <a href="http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/" target="_blank">AoE3</a> would work pretty well with NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We've already started planning elo-ranking system that'll be based upon win/loss and how much you did for your team. We'll probably start working on it in this month already but don't expect it to be done even in two months and still needs a lot of planning on how to do it.
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1962318:date=Aug 13 2012, 09:57 PM:name=supsu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (supsu @ Aug 13 2012, 09:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962318"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE's stats are pretty simplified version from this. I don't think they send anything else than map, starting locations, winner and some kill stats but not with what weapon/lifeform you got the kills etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> UWE has those stats. They even log the player's positions when they kill each other and also have most of the upgrades associated with them (i.e. weapons/armor level, lifeforms, evolutions, though not abilities).
<!--quoteo(post=1963559:date=Aug 15 2012, 06:35 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 15 2012, 06:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Usually, Elo-rankings are based solely on wins/losses. For example, I've always thought this system used by <a href="http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/" target="_blank">AoE3</a> would work pretty well with NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I prefer it per kill/deaths rather than win/loss. Sometimes a game could be going on for 40 minutes and you could be carrying the team but then lose, and you lost points for that whole 40 minutes of play, while a player on the other team who was goofing around is now higher ranked than you. On 1v1 or organised matches then win/loss is fine, but in a pub game it doesn't make much sense. Obviously there is no perfect system, but having played dod:s with the elo ranks based on k/d, it's a lot more fun imo, and also a lot simpler.
I also think that a win/loss system would just encourage team stacking. You'd get people trying to boost their stats by going on the same team as their buddies and stomping noobs on the opposite side. Even though you'd get less points than winning against a better team, it would still boost your stats and almost guarantee that you wouldn't lose any points.
With a kill/death system, the higher you are ranked then the less points you get for killing a low ranked player (and also the more points you lose for dying to them), so it becomes better to actually go on the opposite team to other good players and to try and kill them, in order to get more points.
supsuJoin Date: 2012-04-24Member: 151023Members, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1963580:date=Aug 15 2012, 09:16 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Aug 15 2012, 09:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE has those stats. They even log the player's positions when they kill each other and also have most of the upgrades associated with them (i.e. weapons/armor level, lifeforms, evolutions, though not abilities).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, my bad, I thought that they keep track a bit less than they actually do but nonetheless they are still lacking loads of stats that we keep track of.
<!--quoteo(post=1963610:date=Aug 15 2012, 10:29 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 15 2012, 10:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963610"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With a kill/death system, the higher you are ranked then the less points you get for killing a low ranked player (and also the more points you lose for dying to them), so it becomes better to actually go on the opposite team to other good players and to try and kill them, in order to get more points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's mostly what we are planning on doing but we'll probably add score to that equation too because k/d isn't everything you can do for your team: I have had loads of times best score but not the best kills simply by just killing more alien structures like upgrades and harvesters etc so we need to take those into count too.
SintJoin Date: 2007-01-09Member: 59540Members, Squad Five Blue
Yes ELO rating is pretty tricky to do in NS2, it could be made simply win/loss, but that has several problems. One of the worst is that it encourages stacking. You would get better ELO rating if you stack on pubs always. So to get good rating you would need to know who is good and stack with them or play with friends. Another problem is that when you play with team which has 1500 average ELO rating vs opposite team that has same average rating, then when your team loses you would get lot of negative rating if your own rating would be for example 1800, even if you had 3 times the score of 2nd best player in your team.
So we have some ideas to make system which uses ELO rating but points what you get will depend also on your ranking inside your team. This ranking could be based on score for example, but maybe also something else. So for example first person in scoreboard would get 15 points, second 14.5 points etc. This score would then be reduced or increased by ELO ratings when we compare marine team average ELO to alien team average ELO. Also if player has not been playing the whole round(joined middle) ELO rating change would be reduced. (<a href="https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/16QisluLHMofn39UgPOpZp-tcp8JjEyVufu6PgIvZzYo/edit" target="_blank">here</a> is some draft about this). This would mean that even if you lose you would not lose that much points if you are high in scoreboard, but if not then you would.
<u>Anyway nothing is decided yet, we are still thinking what we are going to do about it.</u>
But we are planning on making sv_randomByEloRating command or similar, which would randomize teams using each players ELO rating, so that both teams would have about the same average ELO rating. Rating would be fetched from website before teams are arranged. People could also vote for it in the game, or there could be setting to use it always. This needs more thinking also.
<!--quoteo(post=1963655:date=Aug 15 2012, 09:59 PM:name=supsu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (supsu @ Aug 15 2012, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's mostly what we are planning on doing but we'll probably add score to that equation too because k/d isn't everything you can do for your team: I have had loads of times best score but not the best kills simply by just killing more alien structures like upgrades and harvesters etc so we need to take those into count too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I think that's a good idea. In dod:s for example you get points for every flag you capture, and the points are generally worth it, so it's better to actually play the game and go out and capture flags than it is to camp for kills. In a similar way in ns2 you could give points for structures killed etc.
Sint, that method you linked to in the image seems awfully complicated to me. It would seem simpler to just give points for kills and structures destroyed and not worry about the average elo ratings of each team. For example if zups is playing and he is a high ranking player and he managed to kill some low ranking players and then kill the hive, he will get a small amount of points for each and then a static amount of points for killing the hive structure. If he gets killed by a low ranking player then he will lose a larger amount of points. It doesn't matter if the teams are stacked because it will work itself out over time. The players on the stacked team will get less and less points for killing and lose more and more for dying. When the teams are then scrambled the next round then those points will get distributed amongst other players who managed to kill the high ranking player.
I think you might need to add a multiplier in for the different classes though. If you kill a player who is a skulk you get a base amount, but if you kill the same player who is a fade it would be increased, because obviously killing a fade is more difficult. You could also do this in reverse to compensate for the ease of killing as better classes. Plus, you could have modifiers for weapons so that getting an axe kill would give bonus points etc.
I don't think you should get points for wins/losses as it encourages stacking and it's too hard to work out exactly what that win or loss is worth. I feel like it would punish players for being on a team with noobs when there is nothing they can do to avoid losing points.
I don't think this system is perfect by any means, but I think it's the simplest and easiest to understand. I feel like it's a lost cause to try and get this perfect ranking system that works out the average rating of each team and tries to quantify your contribution. There's so many different elements that can't be accounted for.
<!--quoteo(post=1963699:date=Aug 15 2012, 11:00 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 15 2012, 11:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think you should get points for wins/losses as it encourages stacking and it's too hard to work out exactly what that win or loss is worth. I feel like it would punish players for being on a team with noobs when there is nothing they can do to avoid losing points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But if we're using this system to quantify skill, how can we give extra points for a fade/onos kill? How many of you have killed an onos or fade by yourselves? I think I have once, and I got very very lucky. Having a mod, which I'm sure could be build very easily, you could give partial points for assists.
This also brings up another question. How much skill is involved in opening fire on a fade in base and they happen to die?
Comments
but i think the last thing this game needs is to turn into the way the BF3 forums are.
Example: "You're KD is lower than mine so your opinion doesnt matter, get the ###### out you stupid noob"
I'm not sure what is displayed currently ("kills") but it probably scale with the time spent. So basically you'll see people who play all day on top.
And who doesn't like stats? Personally I like the steam ID thing, so you can see which smurf belongs to who because a lot of people seem to be unable to play with their normal handles for some reason :P And it is actually pretty cool having a public means of looking at and comparing a lot of various data.
I have something to say to everybody who are concerned of servers turning into stats griding fragfest. For now there aren't many other stats except kills, deaths, lifeforms, weapons, etc basic stuff. However we will add more stats including buildings dropped, upgrades researched, lifeform upgrades, etc. These will provide much more interesting information than just the basic kills, kd, etc. I really hope this mod will bring focus to other statistics in ns2 than just kills, k:d, etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1961731:date=Aug 12 2012, 06:57 PM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Aug 12 2012, 06:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961731"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Artwork is bad ass. Gogo rantology! ;)
Anyways, I finally got this working. I should probably refrain from this stuff at 4am.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great! I'm hoping to see more servers to start using ns2stats soon. It's very easy. Just go to ns2stats.org, log in and click the "add server" button in the top navigation. There you will find installation instructions, file downloads and a unique key for each of your server.
<!--quoteo(post=1961736:date=Aug 12 2012, 07:21 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Aug 12 2012, 07:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961736"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ah, cool. Design feedback then: Have a "My Stats" link with "(requires steam login)", and a separate link/section for "Server Admins" with instructions. You should also post about this in the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showforum=118" target="_blank">server discussion</a> section since thats where a lot of the server peeps hang out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks! We will do this soon.
great work :)
But i dont like stats-pages like this. This is my personal opinion and i dont want to criticize your hard work.
KD/R is only the half truth of an good player i think.
Lets take BF3 for example with all the cool stats sites:
An colleque and me where always preparing to destroy the crates while the rest of the team sitting in bushes try not to die.
The others have great stats for sure but most of them playing theyr own KD/R game.
So, who is the better team-player. The one sitting in the bush with an awsome KD/R or the idiots trying to destroy the crates, covering each other and trying to win the game?
A short time ago there was in discussion about removing kills in NS2. i would like to see that, score is the only thing a teambased game need.
A good gorge for example is very important for the team, but he will never on 1st place on these stats-site.
Yeah, it's a shame it doesn't show any other statistics than k/d and doesn't rate players based on a score system.
Oh wait...
Talking about the accuracy of these kind of statistics for rating players is a fruitless discussion in any case. While it can give you some idea of a player's skill, it will never be perfectly accurate, nor should it endeavour to be. It is fun to watch your statistics and try to climb on the rankings, however, which is exactly what should be the point of such a system. This alone can be enough to convince some people to play the game.
If UWE aren't already considering releasing their own public statistics system, they should just directly implement this into the game -- by default it should be on all servers, with the option to turn it off. It will be a big selling point for the game.
Suggestion for the makers: Make the statistics distinguish between private games (passworded servers) and public games.
I won't be paying much attention to it but I'm sure a few out there like this kinda stuff.
Its great to see a NS2 stats program. My only question is does it collect stats when cheats are enabled? I could see that as a problem where someone enables cheats, adds 100000 bots, and goes 100000/0 in K/D.
I love the project and there's alot to be gained from access to this kind of statistical data. I kind of assumed that UWE had already implemented something like this behind the scenes though, otherwise how would they be making balance decisions other than by basing it subjective opinions and imperfect gametheory? Either way, better late than never!
Its great to see a NS2 stats program. My only question is does it collect stats when cheats are enabled? I could see that as a problem where someone enables cheats, adds 100000 bots, and goes 100000/0 in K/D.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bots use your own steamid afaik.
I for one don't like these kinds of stats. Makes people just farm kills or cysts instead of actually playing the game.
Build orders etc will be far more interesting.
Its great to see a NS2 stats program. My only question is does it collect stats when cheats are enabled? I could see that as a problem where someone enables cheats, adds 100000 bots, and goes 100000/0 in K/D.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There'll be a bot check on website side that will not count rounds where bot has been in the game as part of the stats, so bot cheating won't be a problem at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1962285:date=Aug 13 2012, 09:32 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Aug 13 2012, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love the project and there's alot to be gained from access to this kind of statistical data. I kind of assumed that UWE had already implemented something like this behind the scenes though, otherwise how would they be making balance decisions other than by basing it subjective opinions and imperfect gametheory? Either way, better late than never!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UWE's stats are pretty simplified version from this. I don't think they send anything else than map, starting locations, winner and some kill stats but not with what weapon/lifeform you got the kills etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1962319:date=Aug 13 2012, 10:57 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 13 2012, 10:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962319"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Very nice work.
I'd really like to see some ELO style ranking (i.e. you gain points for every kill, lose points for each death. You get more points for killing a high ranking player.) Like people have said before, it's not a perfect ranking of skill level, but it's a fun little thing to try and climb the ranks. Perhaps give a small amount of points for things like building etc. You could also introduce awards and give like the top 10 players of the month a little award that you see on their nstats.org profile or whatever. Reset the elo ranks each month and then start again.
It would also be cool to see a kill history, showing who you have killed the most and a death history (who has killed you the most)
Here's an example of similar style stats for dod:s : <a href="http://www.ukcs.net/statsd/stats.php?q=player&uid=0789a139bc35f03a10ac2885e2a3e88a" target="_blank">http://www.ukcs.net/statsd/stats.php?q=pla...0ac2885e2a3e88a</a>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All of this has already been planned and will be in the site at some point, not probably even in the first two months though but definitely at some point.
I'd really like to see some ELO style ranking (i.e. you gain points for every kill, lose points for each death. You get more points for killing a high ranking player.) Like people have said before, it's not a perfect ranking of skill level, but it's a fun little thing to try and climb the ranks. Perhaps give a small amount of points for things like building etc. You could also introduce awards and give like the top 10 players of the month a little award that you see on their nstats.org profile or whatever. Reset the elo ranks each month and then start again.
It would also be cool to see a kill history, showing who you have killed the most and a death history (who has killed you the most)
Here's an example of similar style stats for dod:s : <a href="http://www.ukcs.net/statsd/stats.php?q=player&uid=0789a139bc35f03a10ac2885e2a3e88a" target="_blank">http://www.ukcs.net/statsd/stats.php?q=pla...0ac2885e2a3e88a</a>.
one thing i'd like to know is which games are excluded from the win/loss. is there a minimum length? what happens if you join mid-game or switch teams?
i really hope you consider these things. because to me, this is the most vital stat: any decent player should realise that putting effort into winning will also help most of your other stats (e.g. you gain more res and better tech making it easier to gain score and a higher KDR) and in the end, winning as a team is the ultimate goal of each match, right?
but overall, i am quite happy with this as it could have turned out a looot worse. the page looks great and there are already a lot of additional interesting stats. please keep up the great work :)
one thing i'd like to know is which games are excluded from the win/loss. is there a minimum length? what happens if you join mid-game or switch teams?
i really hope you consider these things. because to me, this is the most vital stat: any decent player should realise that putting effort into winning will also help most of your other stats (e.g. you gain more res and better tech making it easier to gain score and a higher KDR) and in the end, winning as a team is the ultimate goal of each match, right?
but overall, i am quite happy with this as it could have turned out a looot worse. the page looks great and there are already a lot of additional interesting stats. please keep up the great work :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Currently there is no minimum length or minimum players needed for stats to track. However some stats including the win/loss rate require you to be play over 50 % of the round in the team.
We also changed the front page player lists to show data for the past 24 hours making it easier for any skilled player to get some visibility there without need to grind for days.
Next we'll focus on creating a nice view for each round, as well as couple of other features we're very excited about.
Because I think you hail from the Dystopia community, by chance did any of your inspiration come from <a href="http://www.dystopia-stats.com" target="_blank">http://www.dystopia-stats.com</a> ?
Usually, Elo-rankings are based solely on wins/losses. For example, I've always thought this system used by <a href="http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/" target="_blank">AoE3</a> would work pretty well with NS2.
We've already started planning elo-ranking system that'll be based upon win/loss and how much you did for your team. We'll probably start working on it in this month already but don't expect it to be done even in two months and still needs a lot of planning on how to do it.
UWE has those stats. They even log the player's positions when they kill each other and also have most of the upgrades associated with them (i.e. weapons/armor level, lifeforms, evolutions, though not abilities).
I prefer it per kill/deaths rather than win/loss. Sometimes a game could be going on for 40 minutes and you could be carrying the team but then lose, and you lost points for that whole 40 minutes of play, while a player on the other team who was goofing around is now higher ranked than you. On 1v1 or organised matches then win/loss is fine, but in a pub game it doesn't make much sense. Obviously there is no perfect system, but having played dod:s with the elo ranks based on k/d, it's a lot more fun imo, and also a lot simpler.
I also think that a win/loss system would just encourage team stacking. You'd get people trying to boost their stats by going on the same team as their buddies and stomping noobs on the opposite side. Even though you'd get less points than winning against a better team, it would still boost your stats and almost guarantee that you wouldn't lose any points.
With a kill/death system, the higher you are ranked then the less points you get for killing a low ranked player (and also the more points you lose for dying to them), so it becomes better to actually go on the opposite team to other good players and to try and kill them, in order to get more points.
Yeah, my bad, I thought that they keep track a bit less than they actually do but nonetheless they are still lacking loads of stats that we keep track of.
<!--quoteo(post=1963610:date=Aug 15 2012, 10:29 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 15 2012, 10:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963610"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With a kill/death system, the higher you are ranked then the less points you get for killing a low ranked player (and also the more points you lose for dying to them), so it becomes better to actually go on the opposite team to other good players and to try and kill them, in order to get more points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's mostly what we are planning on doing but we'll probably add score to that equation too because k/d isn't everything you can do for your team: I have had loads of times best score but not the best kills simply by just killing more alien structures like upgrades and harvesters etc so we need to take those into count too.
So we have some ideas to make system which uses ELO rating but points what you get will depend also on your ranking inside your team. This ranking could be based on score for example, but maybe also something else. So for example first person in scoreboard would get 15 points, second 14.5 points etc. This score would then be reduced or increased by ELO ratings when we compare marine team average ELO to alien team average ELO. Also if player has not been playing the whole round(joined middle) ELO rating change would be reduced. (<a href="https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/16QisluLHMofn39UgPOpZp-tcp8JjEyVufu6PgIvZzYo/edit" target="_blank">here</a> is some draft about this). This would mean that even if you lose you would not lose that much points if you are high in scoreboard, but if not then you would.
<u>Anyway nothing is decided yet, we are still thinking what we are going to do about it.</u>
But we are planning on making sv_randomByEloRating command or similar, which would randomize teams using each players ELO rating, so that both teams would have about the same average ELO rating. Rating would be fetched from website before teams are arranged. People could also vote for it in the game, or there could be setting to use it always. This needs more thinking also.
Yeah, I think that's a good idea. In dod:s for example you get points for every flag you capture, and the points are generally worth it, so it's better to actually play the game and go out and capture flags than it is to camp for kills. In a similar way in ns2 you could give points for structures killed etc.
Sint, that method you linked to in the image seems awfully complicated to me. It would seem simpler to just give points for kills and structures destroyed and not worry about the average elo ratings of each team. For example if zups is playing and he is a high ranking player and he managed to kill some low ranking players and then kill the hive, he will get a small amount of points for each and then a static amount of points for killing the hive structure. If he gets killed by a low ranking player then he will lose a larger amount of points. It doesn't matter if the teams are stacked because it will work itself out over time. The players on the stacked team will get less and less points for killing and lose more and more for dying. When the teams are then scrambled the next round then those points will get distributed amongst other players who managed to kill the high ranking player.
I think you might need to add a multiplier in for the different classes though. If you kill a player who is a skulk you get a base amount, but if you kill the same player who is a fade it would be increased, because obviously killing a fade is more difficult. You could also do this in reverse to compensate for the ease of killing as better classes. Plus, you could have modifiers for weapons so that getting an axe kill would give bonus points etc.
I don't think you should get points for wins/losses as it encourages stacking and it's too hard to work out exactly what that win or loss is worth. I feel like it would punish players for being on a team with noobs when there is nothing they can do to avoid losing points.
I don't think this system is perfect by any means, but I think it's the simplest and easiest to understand. I feel like it's a lost cause to try and get this perfect ranking system that works out the average rating of each team and tries to quantify your contribution. There's so many different elements that can't be accounted for.
But if we're using this system to quantify skill, how can we give extra points for a fade/onos kill? How many of you have killed an onos or fade by yourselves? I think I have once, and I got very very lucky. Having a mod, which I'm sure could be build very easily, you could give partial points for assists.
This also brings up another question. How much skill is involved in opening fire on a fade in base and they happen to die?