If the change is meant to have players support EXOs with welders, why can't we just make it so EXOs are the only armor types that can't repair at an armory? Or, alternatively, why not make the armory far less efficient at repairing armor than a welder, either by making the armory's repair power weaker, or the welder's stronger?
<!--quoteo(post=1955726:date=Aug 1 2012, 04:43 PM:name=SlamHannigan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SlamHannigan @ Aug 1 2012, 04:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955726"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or, alternatively, why not make the armory far less efficient at repairing armor than a welder, either by making the armory's repair power weaker, or the welder's stronger?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because people will still Armory Hump even if a more efficient method is available. Because one only consists of you standing in one spot, and the other requires finding someone else with a welder.
How about taking away the cost to research welder's, and make them a standard item from armouries? Also reduce the cost to 3 res that way marine's would generally always have them, and could AFFORD to use them and die without wasting precious PRES.
I like what they have done with the welder's and the direction it's going, they just need to adjust the cost's, cause its simply not worth losing 5 res every life when you don't get to use it half the time.
personally have had great success as a comm by dropping welders for my marines in the field and telling them to weld each other. also, @salraine_chi: the biggest draw IMO that ns2 is tight-knit teamwork. fps/rts style novelty aside, the thing that keeps drawing me and hopefully many others back to the game is the sense of ownership of the game - that you are involved with other human beings striving towards a common goal. sure, sometimes someone may save the day by being a pub all-star and going 30-0, and sometimes you just gotta scratch that rambo itch, but there's nothing quite like the feeling you get from being a part of a successful team effort. as for your point about no one welding: it'll take some time to filter into the collective consciousness that welders are important. there were plenty of times i played today where i saw new players welding each other and welding me. if you really wanted a game where you could be self-sufficient, why not just play any other vanilla fps? why not play quakelive or any of that kind of game?
<!--quoteo(post=1955086:date=Jul 30 2012, 06:23 AM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 30 2012, 06:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955086"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But isn't it the same for the aliens? If the aliens can't get the 2nd hive they have also lost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's generally easier for the aliens to get that second hive and keep it with their superior map control. A 2nd alien hive is usually a given unless the marines seriously outclass the alien team in player skill.
From what I've seen, the real variable in determining marine victory or loss is player skill. If you have marines on your team who know how to aim and work as a team then that can carry you through very well to a second CC, because they can actually kill skulks while holding their ground, instead of dying constantly or running away to lose ground.
It's now just even more important that the crutch of easy armor has been removed. And the lack of effective sentries doesn't even give your average marines a crutch when it comes to holding territory anymore.
Although there's nothing wrong with a game being determined by player skill as the main variable, experience shows that the skill required to be effective as a marine is higher than that required of aliens. Aliens have a lot of powerfully inbuilt advantages as a part of their classes which even an unskilled player can leverage to perform decently. Marines currently depend entirely on good aim and teamwork to win. Flamethrowers and grenade launchers don't present much if any outright increase in combat power against the aliens because their use is highly situational in that regard. Shotguns are an upgrade in many cases, but they require a lot of skill before you'll notice that increase in power (ie. having marines who are good enough to never miss the first couple shots in snap encounters). Until we get exos or HMGs, the average marine won't be able to rely on tech alone to give them an outright advantage. Even then, they may not survive to exos when currently they often don't survive to jetpacks. Yes, the jetpack is an example of marines getting an outright tech advantage that even the average marine can use effectively, but it doesn't often translate into actually killing fades and lerks without the ability to aim on top of that (or a weapon like the HMG that would be more forgiving).
<!--quoteo(post=1955764:date=Aug 1 2012, 09:07 PM:name=GodofThunder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GodofThunder @ Aug 1 2012, 09:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955764"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about taking away the cost to research welder's, and make them a standard item from armouries? Also reduce the cost to 3 res that way marine's would generally always have them, and could AFFORD to use them and die without wasting precious PRES.
I like what they have done with the welder's and the direction it's going, they just need to adjust the cost's, cause its simply not worth losing 5 res every life when you don't get to use it half the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that the marines don't spend enough res in the previous builds. Most marines didn't care much when they died because they had more than enough res to buy a new weapon. I sometimes see marines which die literally next to their base with a not standard weapon. They respawn and don't even try to get their weapon back, which they would in 90% of the cases, they just buy a new one. The jetpack is also a good example, from the point they become available every marine has one through the rest of the game. I wouldn't say that is a bad thing currently that marines have a lot of res since the balancing is not jet in a state that both sides are equal but when it the prices for marine equipment have to be adjusted upwards. Marines should currently in 95% of the time have enough res to buy a welder anytime they want.
@Rise I think part of the reason the marines struggle with getting a 2nd CC is the different play style of the marines. They rarely focus on securing a techpoint in the early game. They rush through the map and try to get every RT they can. I don't know if you experienced those relocate rushes in mineshaft where the marines went to crushing. It was a hell as aliens when this happened. They spawned so close to your hive and could all the time pressure the aliens a lot. Aliens are forced to rush for a 2nd hive because they have no other real structures and their live depends on the new abilities they gain through 2nd and 3rd hive. Marines can do pretty well without a jetpack, afaik it is the only thing currently which is tied to the 2nd CC? But when they let the aliens reach the endgame and they don't have the jetpacks they have problems.
<!--quoteo(post=1955766:date=Aug 2 2012, 02:22 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Aug 2 2012, 02:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955766"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->personally have had great success as a comm by dropping welders for my marines in the field and telling them to weld each other. also, @salraine_chi: the biggest draw IMO that ns2 is tight-knit teamwork. fps/rts style novelty aside, the thing that keeps drawing me and hopefully many others back to the game is the sense of ownership of the game - that you are involved with other human beings striving towards a common goal. sure, sometimes someone may save the day by being a pub all-star and going 30-0, and sometimes you just gotta scratch that rambo itch, but there's nothing quite like the feeling you get from being a part of a successful team effort. as for your point about no one welding: it'll take some time to filter into the collective consciousness that welders are important. there were plenty of times i played today where i saw new players welding each other and welding me. if you really wanted a game where you could be self-sufficient, why not just play any other vanilla fps? why not play quakelive or any of that kind of game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love teamwork in games, don't get me wrong. One of my favourite games ever is Project Reality and without team work you cannot win. I dont like the quake/UT type of game which is one of the draws for NS2 tbh.
What I would like though is the RTS/FPS hybrid advertised and not a building/repairing simulator. In the games I played as Marine in 215, I spent more time welding/building or asking to be repaired than firing my weapon or attacking hives. Surely that cant be right?!
Comments
Because people will still Armory Hump even if a more efficient method is available. Because one only consists of you standing in one spot, and the other requires finding someone else with a welder.
I like what they have done with the welder's and the direction it's going, they just need to adjust the cost's, cause its simply not worth losing 5 res every life when you don't get to use it half the time.
It's generally easier for the aliens to get that second hive and keep it with their superior map control.
A 2nd alien hive is usually a given unless the marines seriously outclass the alien team in player skill.
From what I've seen, the real variable in determining marine victory or loss is player skill.
If you have marines on your team who know how to aim and work as a team then that can carry you through very well to a second CC, because they can actually kill skulks while holding their ground, instead of dying constantly or running away to lose ground.
It's now just even more important that the crutch of easy armor has been removed.
And the lack of effective sentries doesn't even give your average marines a crutch when it comes to holding territory anymore.
Although there's nothing wrong with a game being determined by player skill as the main variable, experience shows that the skill required to be effective as a marine is higher than that required of aliens. Aliens have a lot of powerfully inbuilt advantages as a part of their classes which even an unskilled player can leverage to perform decently. Marines currently depend entirely on good aim and teamwork to win. Flamethrowers and grenade launchers don't present much if any outright increase in combat power against the aliens because their use is highly situational in that regard. Shotguns are an upgrade in many cases, but they require a lot of skill before you'll notice that increase in power (ie. having marines who are good enough to never miss the first couple shots in snap encounters).
Until we get exos or HMGs, the average marine won't be able to rely on tech alone to give them an outright advantage. Even then, they may not survive to exos when currently they often don't survive to jetpacks. Yes, the jetpack is an example of marines getting an outright tech advantage that even the average marine can use effectively, but it doesn't often translate into actually killing fades and lerks without the ability to aim on top of that (or a weapon like the HMG that would be more forgiving).
I like what they have done with the welder's and the direction it's going, they just need to adjust the cost's, cause its simply not worth losing 5 res every life when you don't get to use it half the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that the marines don't spend enough res in the previous builds. Most marines didn't care much when they died because they had more than enough res to buy a new weapon. I sometimes see marines which die literally next to their base with a not standard weapon. They respawn and don't even try to get their weapon back, which they would in 90% of the cases, they just buy a new one. The jetpack is also a good example, from the point they become available every marine has one through the rest of the game.
I wouldn't say that is a bad thing currently that marines have a lot of res since the balancing is not jet in a state that both sides are equal but when it the prices for marine equipment have to be adjusted upwards. Marines should currently in 95% of the time have enough res to buy a welder anytime they want.
@Rise
I think part of the reason the marines struggle with getting a 2nd CC is the different play style of the marines. They rarely focus on securing a techpoint in the early game. They rush through the map and try to get every RT they can. I don't know if you experienced those relocate rushes in mineshaft where the marines went to crushing. It was a hell as aliens when this happened. They spawned so close to your hive and could all the time pressure the aliens a lot.
Aliens are forced to rush for a 2nd hive because they have no other real structures and their live depends on the new abilities they gain through 2nd and 3rd hive. Marines can do pretty well without a jetpack, afaik it is the only thing currently which is tied to the 2nd CC? But when they let the aliens reach the endgame and they don't have the jetpacks they have problems.
I love teamwork in games, don't get me wrong. One of my favourite games ever is Project Reality and without team work you cannot win. I dont like the quake/UT type of game which is one of the draws for NS2 tbh.
What I would like though is the RTS/FPS hybrid advertised and not a building/repairing simulator. In the games I played as Marine in 215, I spent more time welding/building or asking to be repaired than firing my weapon or attacking hives. Surely that cant be right?!