<!--quoteo(post=1952666:date=Jul 20 2012, 10:04 AM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Jul 20 2012, 10:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't play Comm often enough to have a feeling for this, so a question for the regular commanders: Is it possible to spam med packs consistently without putting a dent in your economy?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> At 1 tres medpacks are about, if not maybe more expensive than they are in ns1 and they do push your timings back alot. NS2 being 1 res per 7 sec compared to NS1 being 1 res per 4 sec + rfk + generally relatively cheaper building costs. So not only is each res spent on NS2 medpacks about the same cost, but you have a higher opportunity cost on that res as well (tech wise). So yes, medpacks will put a 'dent' in your build. Granted you can't exactly draw very close parallels between the NS1 and NS2 res systems (equipment drops) but that's how it feels and seems to play to me anyway.
Nanoshield + medspam is pretty tres intensive too but i think the point against nano is that its more cost effective than simply medding and synergises too well with the latter. I think nano still could have a niche function if only usable on buildings and not players (RT management etc.). But as others have said, nano on players is probably a bit too intrusive on the fps level even if you balance it res cost wise.
Honestly I like the idea of meds becoming a fairly slow heal over time in exchange for marines keeping nanoshield. It's not as finnicky for the comm to perform as medspam, has a set usage limit, and is easier for aliens to understand(set duration, clear graphic, etc). Both together though is crazy, the ability to make one marine a god even moreso than in NS1 is far too much combat involvement for the comm to have.
However, if that's not going to happen then limiting nanoshield to structures is the next best bet. As I recall, it was originally proposed as a way to keep RTs alive long enough for marines to be able to defend them. I don't recall ever hearing a design justification for putting it on marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1952574:date=Jul 19 2012, 12:29 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 19 2012, 12:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're so dirty, I always feel ashamed when I miss all my bullets on two skulks and still kill them with the axe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Am I the only 'mostly Kharaa player' who thinks Nano-Shield is a good thing? I don't like it when its spammed, but the two Skulks in the quoted example are stupid -> they should run away and wait for your shield to die. That is in fact the point of the shield - protection of the Marine; its doing its job.
I think Nano-Shield should have a CD, not in casting it but in receiving it. So a Marine with Nano-Shield gets some great benefits, but afterward they are definitely fighting on their own for a long duration (15-30 seconds). I think the "heal over time" is a bit excessive of a nerf, blind made some excellent points as to why Medpacks should stay as an instant heal.
The MAC shield-er sounds like a nightmare (the Drifters are SO painful to use), but if they could be set to follow a unit, it might be worthwhile. I'm thinking also having the MAC shielded would be a good idea (during a Nano-Shield, both MAC and target are affected) -> so the MAC is more protected than normal, but it would still likely be easier to kill than the protected Marine. This would give Kharaa another objective to attack, another piece on the field. MACs should also NOT be allowed to weld while they are shielding.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1952629:date=Jul 19 2012, 01:12 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jul 19 2012, 01:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulk vs Marine gameplay is arguably balanced around instant heal medpacks to an extent currently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That doesn't mean we don't balance it for changes that should occur? A lot of the economy/prices are still based off of starting pres of 25, but that doesnt mean we should keep it - <b>we should make the proper decisions based on the design goals and then balance around those.</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1952653:date=Jul 19 2012, 02:27 PM:name=marks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (marks @ Jul 19 2012, 02:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952653"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The commander's role in NS1 was sidelined enough as it was, you <b>literally</b> spent 80% of your time minimum hovering your screen over marines with medpack selected. Don't neglect it further in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS2 will be focusing <i><b>more </b></i>on FPS and <b><i>less </i></b>on RTS per the high level design doc.
<!--quoteo(post=1952662:date=Jul 19 2012, 04:30 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 19 2012, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952662"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Medpacks only become a problem when combined with nanoshield, not the other way around. Remove nanoshield (or make it structure only) and woosh, problem solved. Medpack cost probably needs to be increased at some point, but that's an unrelated issue.
Can anybody even tell me what gameplay function nanoshield on players was supposed to serve (other than combat support, which medpacks already fulfill)?
KISS. Get rid of nanoshield (and nanoconstruct while you're at it).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe what scardybob said is correct: Medpacks have always been a problem to one degree or another in terms of design / balance/ fairness This thread is for ideas that are NOT "remove nanoshield" only, please For the intended purpose see my first page responses. I doubt nano construct will remain... it makes balancing a nightmare.
<!--quoteo(post=1952620:date=Jul 19 2012, 12:45 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jul 19 2012, 12:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952620"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Medpacks have always been OP. I've medpacked marines enough so that they've solo killed hives, taken out 3+ skulks alone, and even killed fades. They are the posterchild of tedious and unnecessary micro brought into NS2, especially when there are far better ways to implement it. My personal favorite is: - They heal over time and - They have an area of effect
That way it requires only one or two, instead of 3+, to ensure that the marine is getting healed and it isn't an instant, invisible boost to marine health (I frequently determine how close a marine is to death by counting my hits, such that the instant heal effect of medpacks screw that up).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fully Agree.
@Blind: Your points are good ones, but they do not conflict with the heal over time mechanic - you can literally perform all of those points still with said suggestion. I think its also important to consider that NS2 will be less focused on commander interaction on the battlefield, as stated previously. This could take up it's own thread but basically i think the decision was made because in a 32 player game only 2 people have that experience, so the attention should be paid to those 30 on the ground <i>more</i>. This includes perceived "fairness" i believe
Regarding NS1: IMO, just because it was done in NS1 doesnt mean a) it will work in ns2 with new mechanics (lerk poison, anyone?) or b) that it was ever perfect / great design.
<!--quoteo(post=1952580:date=Jul 20 2012, 03:37 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 20 2012, 03:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@yuuki: it would help with the frustration of a commander spamming medpacks to help his marine win a fight against you - this of course being completely against the high level design doc of commander influencing too much on the battlefield/FPS side of things. if that medpack took 10 seconds to heal (and not fully heal, btw, just to the level it does now) then that would have a huge impact on fights between aliens and marines - and if nothing else remove that frustration. (notice how fades blinking away for a quick heal from a crag or gorge before returning back is somehow acceptable?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Point of difference with the example given is that the fade has to; a) leave field of combat to heal (med spammed marine does not) b) needs to give up being in melee range (with 100% damage when blinking this is risky)
The marine does not leave field of combat, heals, gets nano'd and ammo spammed meaning he can stay in the fight for longer.
Nano shield should be a shield for buildings not people as it gives marines damage reduction which when coupled with med spam makes them damn near invulnerable. Have seen enough games where marines have 1 player on 8-0 aftr 3 min due to an active comm helping a good player. This is not a result of the player being overly good...just kept alive by the comm.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Closing to melee and then "running away" from a nanoshield is most likely equivilent to simply dying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
I comm a LOT, when possible i nano the marine at the very last minute. This ensures a) the alien is so close running away is difficult and b) That out of a group of marines, the marines being attacked are the ones nanoed.
I have almost never see a skulk run away from nano shield successfully when it is nanoed in this way, most can feel the futility of even trying.
As said before, i like nano the way it is :) it lets the comm hold key areas if he is willing to expend the res (like when u have one marine building rts on a quiet side area of the map), encourage marines to push through a strongly held area, base rush at the end of the game. Really it allows the commander to really have a huge impact on the game.
Calling it a skill handicap seems wrong to me tho, one might as well call carapace a skill handicap, or being an onos or a fade, or having leap, or having stomp, or having jps, or crags, or gorge heal spray during an attack, all of which detract from the pure fps "your ability to aim" vs "enemies ability to aim" dynamic. To me, its the rts element of the game showing through, not a handicap.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't play Comm often enough to have a feeling for this, so a question for the regular commanders: Is it possible to spam med packs consistently without putting a dent in your economy?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ive played games where the aliens have refused to loose easily, and have continued to attack any resource that was unprotected. If i rush the hive, sure i can nano and medspam, but on 2-3rts, that is almost ALL i can do, so i feel like i have the choice of attempting to rush the last hive down, or ordering some marines to recap resources, so that i can tech up, build support buildings and rush at the same time.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Medpacks spam and nanoshield is akin to giving aliens immunity to range damage for 5 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, or like giving aliens ways to completely counter the rangeed weapons, like if they could somehow leap towards marines at unaimnable speed, or invincibly invisibly teleport towards marines and appear at melee range... o wait....
<b>Making nanoshield for structures only</b> If they removed nanoshield from troops, it would seriously detract from the fun on being a commander, and would make it much harder especially for anyone running the standard commander console and not menumod.
Trying to medspam is ridiculously hard at the moment, one extra click and you have selected the troop, and are spamming orders instead of medpacks. Medspam on vanilla console is currently a 3 button operation (e - assist menu, s - medpack select, left click - drop medpack), if you want to be CERTAIN of dropping a medpack,<i> this issue would have to be addressed if noobie marine commander were expected to keep marines alive with nothing but medspam</i>.
<b>Nanoshielded marines cant pick up medpacks</b> I cant imagine i would ever use nanoshield if this were the case, might as well just nerf nano to structres only. I dont know how much med a person will need, i would want to gurantee that 2 medpacks will be all they need, and nanoshield without medpacks would give 2 medpacks worth of extra hp (do i have the maths right here?), making it more cost effective to jsut drop them the 2 medpacks, and have the option of dropping more if they need it, and saving money if they didnt.
<b>Nanoshield from macs</b> Awful idea. So now i get the choice to invest in a turret factory, and a mac, and probably an upgrade by the time your all satisfied, just because i want to nano shield?? for this to even be considerd, the path finding algorithims would also need to be improoved. The commander will be too busy dropping medpacks on the poor marines who arent near a mac to be able to properly move the mac around, marines around the mac will be blocked by it stopping in odd places after nanoing, introudces another element which forces aliens to attack NPCs, and will be unintuitive for new players.
This idea would also mean that early game nanoing would disappear, which is lets face it, where most games are actually decided, so i could get nano shield in time to sit on the base rt and get ready to nano my command chair. THis idea reduces the nanoshield usefullness to breaking aliens out of their final entrenched positions, which as people have alrleady said, marines have many tools to do, i would not bother with nano shield if it had to come from macs, and i think almost no one would.
<b>Heal over time medpacks </b> Sounds horriffic to me, id rather loose nano completely and keep functioning medpacks. I would hardly use medpacks at all if i had to roll the dice on wether or not the marine might survive long enough to make use of the investment of my res, id be beter off sticking an armoury in every room. How long are people talking about making the heal over time last, 20 seconds? 30 seconds?? so marines have to heal slowly - JUST LIKE ALIENS, and we wind up having a who can heal the fastest and get back to attack contest, as aliens backed by 3 gorges and crags on heal cycle get back to attack marines who have gained 20 hp in that time, with no way to speed up healing, and with the commander being able to nano shield 2 rines at a time thanks to his cool down, which will be completely fricking useless with a slow heal.
Healing medpacks over time turns nanoshield into a "get 2/3 bites extra before you die" mechanic, and if thats what you want then make nanoshield just that, not that i think that idea is any better.
<i>Of all of the ideas posted in this thread, the following is the least offensive to me:</i>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think Nano-Shield should have a CD, not in casting it but in receiving it. So a Marine with Nano-Shield gets some great benefits, but afterward they are definitely fighting on their own for a long duration (15-30 seconds).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im not sure how this could be implemented in such a way as to make it obvious for new players, but it would seem to check many boxes. It would give 1v1 skulks a chance to try and dodge and move more, whils the nano wore off, then move in for a more aggressive finish, i would say that (at a guess) 30% of the time i nano against a 1v1 skulk, this would probably mean that the marine will die.
It would allow an entire team to be nanoed (if the res is available) for a big rush on a hive, with aliens knowing that they have to hold off the marines for 10 seconds, and then they will get a 30 second window to do as much damage as they can before the next nano cycle might possibly remain.
It would allow single marines in a group under attack to be nanoed, but if the same marine is allways running around stupid corners, he wont be able to get another nano and will die.
Anyway, my thought on it, id prefer it left as it is for own personal ammusement of nanoing and medspamming a stomped marine as an onos hits him wondering why he isnt dying, and this would still allow that, for at least one cycle of nanoshield.
UWE, i know that you want the focus of the game to be less on the commander, and more on the troops, but some of these suggestions would make me far less likely to take the comm chair, if you make it no fun to be the commander, and reduce the skill ceiling of being a comm to knowing the technology tree, dropping welders at rts, and keeping an eye on the distress beacon, no one who plays a long time in this game will ever want to be a comm.
Right now, its exciting to be a comm, mainly because of the impact you can have on the fps game, i cant see any way of reducing the impact a comm has on the game, without reducing the ammount of fun that can be had commanding, if you reduce it too much, people wont want to command.
Tough decisions ahead!
I cant help but feel that nano shield will be nerfed to the point of uselessness in an upcoming build, then we will have people in here complaining that medpacks are op as well.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1952705:date=Jul 19 2012, 08:45 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jul 19 2012, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have seen enough games where marines have 1 player on 8-0 aftr 3 min due to an active comm helping a good player. This is not a result of the player being overly good...just kept alive by the comm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ^ Thats the take away point imo why medpacks and nanospam need different implementations.
<b>Can we please keep this thread ontopic and as the OP intended:</b> For contributing ideas on "how to fix nanospam and medspam besides simply removing it" So that Crypt can keep compiling his list in the first post? Thanks
<!--quoteo(post=1952713:date=Jul 20 2012, 03:35 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 20 2012, 03:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->^ Thats the take away point imo why medpacks and nanospam need different implementations.
<b>Can we please keep this thread ontopic and as the OP intended:</b> For contributing ideas on "how to fix nanospam and medspam besides simply removing it" So that Crypt can keep compiling his list in the first post? Thanks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry to keep things on topic I agree with leaving med packs for marines and nano for physical buildings.
This does not remove nano but shifts it to be simply buildings though perhaps not a flat increase. From this it would shift the focus of the comm to start use nano on a sentry turret making them more useful than the current state or the phase gate so marines dont have to worry about who is chomping the phase as much.
Alternatively we (UWE(they)) could limit nano to marines who have exo but not JP's or vanilla marines on a sliding scale. Armour 0 they get 0 nano help. armour 1 gets 25% effectiveness of nano (in its damage reduction capacity) armour 2 gets 50% armour 3 gets 75% Exo gets 100% JP gets 0-25% (being that they already have way to get out of range of most attacks and a nano'd jp'er is almost total god mode if its a good player)
<!--quoteo(post=1952698:date=Jul 20 2012, 04:46 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 20 2012, 04:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 will be focusing <i><b>more </b></i>on FPS and <b><i>less </i></b>on RTS per the high level design doc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha, that's a good one. I wish it was true, but in all honesty, why care about what the design document says, when <b>in reality</b> UWE keeps adding more and more stuff that interferes with the FPS side. I'm just going to mention Infestation Spikes, Phantasm, Ink, Nano Shield - the list goes on.
<!--quoteo(post=1952620:date=Jul 19 2012, 09:45 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jul 19 2012, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952620"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Medpacks have always been OP. I've medpacked marines enough so that they've solo killed hives, taken out 3+ skulks alone, and even killed fades. They are the posterchild of tedious and unnecessary micro brought into NS2, especially when there are far better ways to implement it. My personal favorite is: - They heal over time and - They have an area of effect
That way it requires only one or two, instead of 3+, to ensure that the marine is getting healed and it isn't an instant, invisible boost to marine health (I frequently determine how close a marine is to death by counting my hits, such that the instant heal effect of medpacks screw that up).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still don't think the instant health gain is the real problem. All your examples indicate spam, and what isn't OP when spammed. Receiving meds has always been part of combat, it is balanced around that. What you propose would make meds largely useless in combat, because of the high burst damage of most lifeforms. The AoE effect would also force marines to wait in an area to heal up, which is somewhat tedious.
Medpacks as they are (or for 2 tres with rfk), nanoshield for structures only, nanoconstruct removed.
That feels the best based on all of the test competitive games I've played so far. Medpack spam really isn't a big deal. I've complained about med-spam, but it's never felt over-powered or under-powered. There's a clear trade-off to teching when spamming meds as countless people have mentioned already.
Meds working as a heal over time won't work. Commanders can't respond quick enough to make it work without having the duration of heal be so short it might as well be instant. Simple as that.
The only time marines are spamming meds and aliens feel helpless is when they stop biting res nodes. And they have only themselves to blame for that with the exception of maybe nanoconstruct.
If nanoconstruct wasn't always cost efficient for rebuilding RT's, biting res nodes mid-to-late game would do much more. So if you really want to stop medspam, stop nanoconstruct.
Instead of dealing with separate medpack and nanoshield, just combine the two of them together. You get healed for the duration of the shield, and you have more protection to survive. As an example, the shield stay for 10 seconds, healing 5 HP/sec for 50 HP total. Bump up the price of the medshield, and I think you're ready to go.
Using medshield would be like activating "boost mode" for marines. It would also enhance the tactical decision behind its activation. If you use it before the marine get attacked, he gets more armor in case of an attack, but he lose precious seconds of healing. If you use it after, you don't lose healing seconds, but the marine get injured more because he didn't had the armor buff when he got hit. Instead of spamming, now, you need to time your decision.
As for Aliens, it create interesting decisions too. If you wait for the shield to end before attacking, you let the marine heal up. If you attack while the shield is up, the marine is harder to kill, but you could kill him before he get healed.
rather than halve the damage done to nanoshielded structures or players, perhaps nanoshield should reduce damage done to armor by 50-75%. that way it doesn't overlap with medpacks, promotes the use of welders (nanoshielded marines without any armor die just as fast as un-shielded ones), and makes lerk gas and poison bite more valuable.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1952729:date=Jul 19 2012, 11:12 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 19 2012, 11:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952729"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Commanders can't respond quick enough to make it work without having the duration of heal be so short it might as well be instant. Simple as that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Commander response time would be the same and unaffected?? Marine calls for a medpack, you click the notification, you drop a medpack or two, he is now being healed. Wala. But if he asks for it during combat you have to weigh in whether or not its worth the risk of dropping it, <i>more so than typical</i> - as he might die before he is healed - <i>as he should not be dependent on your intervention to win?.</i> (How is it up to only one commander on one team to decide which player wins?)
@hakenspit: thats an interesting POV regrading it not being removed.. but i guess i just wanted to see if anyone had an idea of how to make it work if it were to be kept on marine.. seems pretty hard to keep around. What if it was instead a damage buff, as enzyme is?
@bobrun: i like that idea.. if you increase the cost like you said.. hmm. Also if you can deploy it when its not needed for an increase in armor it would serve as a great hive siege tool, as intended!
@whee: you have a good idea, but how to communicate this to the player and the comm? (Great fix to the hard counter of poison btw!!)
Instead of dealing with separate medpack and nanoshield, just combine the two of them together. You get healed for the duration of the shield, and you have more protection to survive. As an example, the shield stay for 10 seconds, healing 5 HP/sec for 50 HP total. Bump up the price of the medshield, and I think you're ready to go.
Using medshield would be like activating "boost mode" for marines. It would also enhance the tactical decision behind its activation. If you use it before the marine get attacked, he gets more armor in case of an attack, but he lose precious seconds of healing. If you use it after, you don't lose healing seconds, but the marine get injured more because he didn't had the armor buff when he got hit. Instead of spamming, now, you need to time your decision.
As for Aliens, it create interesting decisions too. If you wait for the shield to end before attacking, you let the marine heal up. If you attack while the shield is up, the marine is harder to kill, but you could kill him before he get healed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually quite like this idea. The numbers would have to be tweaked though - the heal should be much faster (20 heal per second for 5 seconds for instance). It could be an idea to have it only heal in the beginning and making the shielding component something that can be upgraded to.
Finish off by making marines unable to pick up more meds when one is active and you're done. It'd need balancing, but it would definitely remove spam.
<!--quoteo(post=1952724:date=Jul 20 2012, 05:37 AM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Jul 20 2012, 05:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Haha, that's a good one. I wish it was true, but in all honesty, why care about what the design document says, when <b>in reality</b> UWE keeps adding more and more stuff that interferes with the FPS side. I'm just going to mention Infestation Spikes, Phantasm, Ink, Nano Shield - the list goes on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's kind of interesting how the whole thing goes. I feel that in some ways interfering with the FPS side is what makes commanding stand out and prevents it from being a horribly shallow and frustrating RTS that someone plays while others get to do all the fun stuff. Leadership and strategical calls are somewhat interesting, but leadership heavily relies on your teammates cooperating and strategy section is already heavily hindered and limited by the fact that your field marines are supposed to have all the toys and get to see all the action.
I definitely do think infestation spikes or nano shield are not the ways to go with the interfering, but at the same something feels almost necessary or you'll have to forcibly lock people to the chair in the long run. At some point I was hoping that MACs would actually be microable enough that you could participate on the actual gameplay without slamming down almighty spells from the sky, but I don't think that's an option anymore. Right now I just don't know.
---
As for medpacking, I think it's important that it has got 'overlapping' actions. In NS1 there was the sound scouting. Basically it gave a reason to do something else than to hover over your main squad. You could for example leave your base a bit more open for aliens and rely on you hearing out the incoming baserush before it hits.
Finding a good combination of medpacking and scouting was one of the more interesting things in a game as situational as NS. The whole thing rewarded situational awarness and game understanding and could always be improved by reading a bit more details and adjusting.
Healing over time would make it so landing med packs at critical moments would be effectively broken and unused. The medpack would just be a pat on the back for surviving because they won't help you survive in critical moments. Unless the duration is short enough to be less than the length of the bite or swipe delay, your medpacks really dont have much effect on anything during a fight. And no matter how good the marine is, ambushing skulks with teamwork would still trump any med spam at the moment anyways. Nanoshield spam on the otherhand, not so much.
I don't play commander often but medpacking is the main thing that require a bit of micro and multi-tasking, which are both fun. Commanding would be much more boring without it.
Meds are fine tbh. Don't fix what isn't broken. Nanoshield on the other hand should probably be reviewed, I think it could easily go on just structures.
So what if a commander spams medkits in combat? Especially early on that is costing him quite a bit of t.res. Surely you'd rather have their commander waste res on that then on teching up? And how is this any different from NS 1? In addition, like Yuuki said, it's one of those tasks that make the Marine commander different from the alien one, and quite engaging/rewarding. Taking it away would only serve to water down yet another great feature from NS 1.
Remove or rework med packs, and rine commanding would be as boring as alien com. Since I only command, I would probably stop playing entirely. My best moments as rine com is with the combat medsoam.
<!--quoteo(post=1952736:date=Jul 20 2012, 05:44 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 20 2012, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952736"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@hakenspit: thats an interesting POV regrading it not being removed.. but i guess i just wanted to see if anyone had an idea of how to make it work if it were to be kept on marine.. seems pretty hard to keep around. What if it was instead a damage buff, as enzyme is?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The ideas/variations as to how it can be implemented are seemingly limited with most simply calling for med for marines nano for objects.
I think if its damage reduction scaled to armour levels as per previous post that it can stay as a marine player buff but with only exo seeing the full damage reduction that it offers now. The faster building could also be scaled (though I think it should be capped at 200% (exo maybe capped at 50%)). Obviously the cost remains static regardless of the effectiveness (ie how many nanodes is being carried in their armour) I guess it might be hard to code as its dynamic boost based on the marines fitout/armour level. Has a certain level of logic to it...also enables for a downside to taking a JP which currently their is not (unless you count less frequent deaths as a downer).
Increasing damage done by marine weapons is not really needed, they already get scaled up with tech so a short term boost I see as not needed (you die enough from 1-2 shotters as it is). I think short of saying nano is for buildings med for players that the scaled option for it would be good. It would be less useful early in game and more useful later in game.
Medpacks and nano-shield have overlapping functions - damage reduction - and there is consensus that both in unison is bad for the game. I think that medpacks are preferable to nano-shields because they manage to fulfil this function in more ways and more situations.
A good place to start is a direct comparison of its usage in combat where the lines are perhaps most blurry - it's difficult to argue which is better. On the one hand, an inexperienced commander can drop a nano-shield and just bugger off while medpacking would require his sustained attention, more skill and cost more (especially with misses). On the other hand, an experienced commander can medpack a group of marines very effectively and grant higher survivability, albeit at a significant cost (fewer misses, also). Basically, medpacking is a more skill-indexed skill than nano-shield which is good for the game and is especially important in giving the commander stuff to do that makes him feel useful. The only problem here that I see is the upper skill bounds of medpack usage and whether it's too powerful. I don't think it is; i've never felt really OP'd by them in NS2 and they're similar enough to compare them to NS1's implementation where fantastic commanders were always beatable.
Where I think medpacks leave nano-shield behind is in their additional functionality. Medpacks are useful out of combat. Medpacks can be spread amongst a group of marines. Medpacks can be applied more liberally and/or more conservatively (you can medpack at the margins). Being ready with medpacks and then sustaining them is a tradeoff against the value of good scouting. I just think that medpacks are really well implemented, tried and trusted and that we shouldn't fix what isn't broken. I think this, and the imminent release of NS2, is enough reason to avoid HoT-medpacks, whether or whether not they would be better (I don't think they would).
The only way I see nano-shield continuing to exist is as structure-only. It's really not necessary to have another player damage-reduction ability when we have one that works already. What I do recognise is the need for interesting commander res-sinks but nano-shield is not the answer to that.
If nano for marines is here to stay, the idea of having it boost armor is quite elegant. It serves the purpose of protecting marines for a base assault, but totally prevents medspam from being doubled in effectiveness since once the armor is gone it has no further effect.
Maybe if you are protected by a nano shield, The shield blocks you from picking up a medipack till the effect has wore off. I think that would be a really good option.
Actually removing nanoshield and construct sounds pretty much the best.
I think we would get much better gameplay without those abilitys. (some adjustments needed ofc)
The synergy between nanoshield and medpacks is just too great, and reducing the effect to an acceptable form would make it not really worth using over medpacks. While it could be some kind of equivalent to medpacks just for structures, its not too much fun from an alien perspective... (stuff like beeing able to have all marines somewhere on the map, while 1-2 aliens try to eat stuff in your base - you just spam nano<u>shield</u>(edit not construct ofc ^^) instead of having to use beacon early - even tho you heavily overextended and should have to use beacon because aliens did the right thing and sneaked in your base at the perfect moment)
Playing around "last second"(63 days [-18= <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>or 45 Days</b> without weekends<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->] to stay with summer release) with how medpacks work, is the worst idea there can be... this is kinda a core ability for marines since ns1, a lot of stuff is balanced around. (like damage values of aliens, armor of marines etc.)
Yeah, but part of it is because aliens also have a "delay" ability with infestation spikes. And they both delay your progress in biting or progressing through a small area by roughly the same amount of time.
Maybe if nanoshield for structures only was 2nd CC like infestation spikes are 2nd hive it would feel better, idk.
<!--quoteo(post=1952737:date=Jul 19 2012, 10:48 PM:name=Angelusz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Jul 19 2012, 10:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952737"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I actually quite like this idea. The numbers would have to be tweaked though - the heal should be much faster (20 heal per second for 5 seconds for instance). It could be an idea to have it only heal in the beginning and making the shielding component something that can be upgraded to.
Finish off by making marines unable to pick up more meds when one is active and you're done. It'd need balancing, but it would definitely remove spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it need to be tested first, because there's many way it could be implemented. We could use a "small boost" model, that gives protection and heal 50 HP over time. It would be relatively cheap, and could be use to help marines hold their ground.
We could use a "huge boost" model, that gives protection and fully heal over time but cost more. It could heal maybe 200 HP over 15 seconds, giving a huge boost in survivability for the marines. It would be useful to lead an attack in aliens ground, but it would cost a lot more (something like 10 or 15 res for each medshield).
Upgrades for the medshield could also be interesting. The basic level of this shield could have no protection and heal 50 HP over 10 seconds. You could upgrade the heal component (like 75 HP over 7 seconds), or, like you said, upgrade the nanoshield component on it. It adds another res sink for the marines, and offer interesting tactical choices for the commander.
I think it solves the main problems: -Spam is solved, since you have to wait for the medshield to end, and it cost more. -Too powerful buff is solved, since you have the two components merged in one, where you have absolute control for balance. With medpacks + nanoshield, marines could have 4 states: Normal, Healed, Shielded, Healed + Shielded. Now, you only have two states: Normal and Medshield. It's a lot easier to balance.
Comments
At 1 tres medpacks are about, if not maybe more expensive than they are in ns1 and they do push your timings back alot. NS2 being 1 res per 7 sec compared to NS1 being 1 res per 4 sec + rfk + generally relatively cheaper building costs. So not only is each res spent on NS2 medpacks about the same cost, but you have a higher opportunity cost on that res as well (tech wise). So yes, medpacks will put a 'dent' in your build. Granted you can't exactly draw very close parallels between the NS1 and NS2 res systems (equipment drops) but that's how it feels and seems to play to me anyway.
Nanoshield + medspam is pretty tres intensive too but i think the point against nano is that its more cost effective than simply medding and synergises too well with the latter.
I think nano still could have a niche function if only usable on buildings and not players (RT management etc.). But as others have said, nano on players is probably a bit too intrusive on the fps level even if you balance it res cost wise.
However, if that's not going to happen then limiting nanoshield to structures is the next best bet. As I recall, it was originally proposed as a way to keep RTs alive long enough for marines to be able to defend them. I don't recall ever hearing a design justification for putting it on marines.
Am I the only 'mostly Kharaa player' who thinks Nano-Shield is a good thing? I don't like it when its spammed, but the two Skulks in the quoted example are stupid -> they should run away and wait for your shield to die. That is in fact the point of the shield - protection of the Marine; its doing its job.
I think Nano-Shield should have a CD, not in casting it but in receiving it. So a Marine with Nano-Shield gets some great benefits, but afterward they are definitely fighting on their own for a long duration (15-30 seconds). I think the "heal over time" is a bit excessive of a nerf, blind made some excellent points as to why Medpacks should stay as an instant heal.
The MAC shield-er sounds like a nightmare (the Drifters are SO painful to use), but if they could be set to follow a unit, it might be worthwhile. I'm thinking also having the MAC shielded would be a good idea (during a Nano-Shield, both MAC and target are affected) -> so the MAC is more protected than normal, but it would still likely be easier to kill than the protected Marine. This would give Kharaa another objective to attack, another piece on the field. MACs should also NOT be allowed to weld while they are shielding.
That doesn't mean we don't balance it for changes that should occur? A lot of the economy/prices are still based off of starting pres of 25, but that doesnt mean we should keep it - <b>we should make the proper decisions based on the design goals and then balance around those.</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1952653:date=Jul 19 2012, 02:27 PM:name=marks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (marks @ Jul 19 2012, 02:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952653"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The commander's role in NS1 was sidelined enough as it was, you <b>literally</b> spent 80% of your time minimum hovering your screen over marines with medpack selected. Don't neglect it further in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 will be focusing <i><b>more </b></i>on FPS and <b><i>less </i></b>on RTS per the high level design doc.
<!--quoteo(post=1952662:date=Jul 19 2012, 04:30 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 19 2012, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952662"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Medpacks only become a problem when combined with nanoshield, not the other way around. Remove nanoshield (or make it structure only) and woosh, problem solved. Medpack cost probably needs to be increased at some point, but that's an unrelated issue.
Can anybody even tell me what gameplay function nanoshield on players was supposed to serve (other than combat support, which medpacks already fulfill)?
KISS. Get rid of nanoshield (and nanoconstruct while you're at it).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe what scardybob said is correct: Medpacks have always been a problem to one degree or another in terms of design / balance/ fairness
This thread is for ideas that are NOT "remove nanoshield" only, please
For the intended purpose see my first page responses.
I doubt nano construct will remain... it makes balancing a nightmare.
<!--quoteo(post=1952620:date=Jul 19 2012, 12:45 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jul 19 2012, 12:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952620"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Medpacks have always been OP. I've medpacked marines enough so that they've solo killed hives, taken out 3+ skulks alone, and even killed fades. They are the posterchild of tedious and unnecessary micro brought into NS2, especially when there are far better ways to implement it. My personal favorite is:
- They heal over time and
- They have an area of effect
That way it requires only one or two, instead of 3+, to ensure that the marine is getting healed and it isn't an instant, invisible boost to marine health (I frequently determine how close a marine is to death by counting my hits, such that the instant heal effect of medpacks screw that up).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fully Agree.
@Blind:
Your points are good ones, but they do not conflict with the heal over time mechanic - you can literally perform all of those points still with said suggestion. I think its also important to consider that NS2 will be less focused on commander interaction on the battlefield, as stated previously. This could take up it's own thread but basically i think the decision was made because in a 32 player game only 2 people have that experience, so the attention should be paid to those 30 on the ground <i>more</i>. This includes perceived "fairness" i believe
Regarding NS1: IMO, just because it was done in NS1 doesnt mean a) it will work in ns2 with new mechanics (lerk poison, anyone?) or b) that it was ever perfect / great design.
Point of difference with the example given is that the fade has to;
a) leave field of combat to heal (med spammed marine does not)
b) needs to give up being in melee range (with 100% damage when blinking this is risky)
The marine does not leave field of combat, heals, gets nano'd and ammo spammed meaning he can stay in the fight for longer.
Nano shield should be a shield for buildings not people as it gives marines damage reduction which when coupled with med spam makes them damn near invulnerable.
Have seen enough games where marines have 1 player on 8-0 aftr 3 min due to an active comm helping a good player.
This is not a result of the player being overly good...just kept alive by the comm.
+1
I comm a LOT, when possible i nano the marine at the very last minute. This ensures a) the alien is so close running away is difficult and b) That out of a group of marines, the marines being attacked are the ones nanoed.
I have almost never see a skulk run away from nano shield successfully when it is nanoed in this way, most can feel the futility of even trying.
As said before, i like nano the way it is :) it lets the comm hold key areas if he is willing to expend the res (like when u have one marine building rts on a quiet side area of the map), encourage marines to push through a strongly held area, base rush at the end of the game. Really it allows the commander to really have a huge impact on the game.
Calling it a skill handicap seems wrong to me tho, one might as well call carapace a skill handicap, or being an onos or a fade, or having leap, or having stomp, or having jps, or crags, or gorge heal spray during an attack, all of which detract from the pure fps "your ability to aim" vs "enemies ability to aim" dynamic. To me, its the rts element of the game showing through, not a handicap.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't play Comm often enough to have a feeling for this, so a question for the regular commanders: Is it possible to spam med packs consistently without putting a dent in your economy?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ive played games where the aliens have refused to loose easily, and have continued to attack any resource that was unprotected. If i rush the hive, sure i can nano and medspam, but on 2-3rts, that is almost ALL i can do, so i feel like i have the choice of attempting to rush the last hive down, or ordering some marines to recap resources, so that i can tech up, build support buildings and rush at the same time.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Medpacks spam and nanoshield is akin to giving aliens immunity to range damage for 5 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, or like giving aliens ways to completely counter the rangeed weapons, like if they could somehow leap towards marines at unaimnable speed, or invincibly invisibly teleport towards marines and appear at melee range... o wait....
<b>Making nanoshield for structures only</b>
If they removed nanoshield from troops, it would seriously detract from the fun on being a commander, and would make it much harder especially for anyone running the standard commander console and not menumod.
Trying to medspam is ridiculously hard at the moment, one extra click and you have selected the troop, and are spamming orders instead of medpacks. Medspam on vanilla console is currently a 3 button operation (e - assist menu, s - medpack select, left click - drop medpack), if you want to be CERTAIN of dropping a medpack,<i> this issue would have to be addressed if noobie marine commander were expected to keep marines alive with nothing but medspam</i>.
<b>Nanoshielded marines cant pick up medpacks</b>
I cant imagine i would ever use nanoshield if this were the case, might as well just nerf nano to structres only. I dont know how much med a person will need, i would want to gurantee that 2 medpacks will be all they need, and nanoshield without medpacks would give 2 medpacks worth of extra hp (do i have the maths right here?), making it more cost effective to jsut drop them the 2 medpacks, and have the option of dropping more if they need it, and saving money if they didnt.
<b>Nanoshield from macs</b>
Awful idea. So now i get the choice to invest in a turret factory, and a mac, and probably an upgrade by the time your all satisfied, just because i want to nano shield?? for this to even be considerd, the path finding algorithims would also need to be improoved. The commander will be too busy dropping medpacks on the poor marines who arent near a mac to be able to properly move the mac around, marines around the mac will be blocked by it stopping in odd places after nanoing, introudces another element which forces aliens to attack NPCs, and will be unintuitive for new players.
This idea would also mean that early game nanoing would disappear, which is lets face it, where most games are actually decided, so i could get nano shield in time to sit on the base rt and get ready to nano my command chair. THis idea reduces the nanoshield usefullness to breaking aliens out of their final entrenched positions, which as people have alrleady said, marines have many tools to do, i would not bother with nano shield if it had to come from macs, and i think almost no one would.
<b>Heal over time medpacks </b>
Sounds horriffic to me, id rather loose nano completely and keep functioning medpacks. I would hardly use medpacks at all if i had to roll the dice on wether or not the marine might survive long enough to make use of the investment of my res, id be beter off sticking an armoury in every room. How long are people talking about making the heal over time last, 20 seconds? 30 seconds?? so marines have to heal slowly - JUST LIKE ALIENS, and we wind up having a who can heal the fastest and get back to attack contest, as aliens backed by 3 gorges and crags on heal cycle get back to attack marines who have gained 20 hp in that time, with no way to speed up healing, and with the commander being able to nano shield 2 rines at a time thanks to his cool down, which will be completely fricking useless with a slow heal.
Healing medpacks over time turns nanoshield into a "get 2/3 bites extra before you die" mechanic, and if thats what you want then make nanoshield just that, not that i think that idea is any better.
<i>Of all of the ideas posted in this thread, the following is the least offensive to me:</i>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think Nano-Shield should have a CD, not in casting it but in receiving it. So a Marine with Nano-Shield gets some great benefits, but afterward they are definitely fighting on their own for a long duration (15-30 seconds).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im not sure how this could be implemented in such a way as to make it obvious for new players, but it would seem to check many boxes. It would give 1v1 skulks a chance to try and dodge and move more, whils the nano wore off, then move in for a more aggressive finish, i would say that (at a guess) 30% of the time i nano against a 1v1 skulk, this would probably mean that the marine will die.
It would allow an entire team to be nanoed (if the res is available) for a big rush on a hive, with aliens knowing that they have to hold off the marines for 10 seconds, and then they will get a 30 second window to do as much damage as they can before the next nano cycle might possibly remain.
It would allow single marines in a group under attack to be nanoed, but if the same marine is allways running around stupid corners, he wont be able to get another nano and will die.
Anyway, my thought on it, id prefer it left as it is for own personal ammusement of nanoing and medspamming a stomped marine as an onos hits him wondering why he isnt dying, and this would still allow that, for at least one cycle of nanoshield.
UWE, i know that you want the focus of the game to be less on the commander, and more on the troops, but some of these suggestions would make me far less likely to take the comm chair, if you make it no fun to be the commander, and reduce the skill ceiling of being a comm to knowing the technology tree, dropping welders at rts, and keeping an eye on the distress beacon, no one who plays a long time in this game will ever want to be a comm.
Right now, its exciting to be a comm, mainly because of the impact you can have on the fps game, i cant see any way of reducing the impact a comm has on the game, without reducing the ammount of fun that can be had commanding, if you reduce it too much, people wont want to command.
Tough decisions ahead!
I cant help but feel that nano shield will be nerfed to the point of uselessness in an upcoming build, then we will have people in here complaining that medpacks are op as well.
Edited to make the wall of text more approchable
This is not a result of the player being overly good...just kept alive by the comm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ Thats the take away point imo why medpacks and nanospam need different implementations.
<b>Can we please keep this thread ontopic and as the OP intended:</b> For contributing ideas on "how to fix nanospam and medspam besides simply removing it" So that Crypt can keep compiling his list in the first post? Thanks
<b>Can we please keep this thread ontopic and as the OP intended:</b> For contributing ideas on "how to fix nanospam and medspam besides simply removing it" So that Crypt can keep compiling his list in the first post? Thanks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry to keep things on topic I agree with leaving med packs for marines and nano for physical buildings.
This does not remove nano but shifts it to be simply buildings though perhaps not a flat increase.
From this it would shift the focus of the comm to start use nano on a sentry turret making them more useful than the current state or the phase gate so marines dont have to worry about who is chomping the phase as much.
Alternatively we (UWE(they)) could limit nano to marines who have exo but not JP's or vanilla marines on a sliding scale.
Armour 0 they get 0 nano help.
armour 1 gets 25% effectiveness of nano (in its damage reduction capacity)
armour 2 gets 50%
armour 3 gets 75%
Exo gets 100%
JP gets 0-25% (being that they already have way to get out of range of most attacks and a nano'd jp'er is almost total god mode if its a good player)
Haha, that's a good one. I wish it was true, but in all honesty, why care about what the design document says, when <b>in reality</b> UWE keeps adding more and more stuff that interferes with the FPS side. I'm just going to mention Infestation Spikes, Phantasm, Ink, Nano Shield - the list goes on.
<!--quoteo(post=1952620:date=Jul 19 2012, 09:45 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jul 19 2012, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952620"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Medpacks have always been OP. I've medpacked marines enough so that they've solo killed hives, taken out 3+ skulks alone, and even killed fades. They are the posterchild of tedious and unnecessary micro brought into NS2, especially when there are far better ways to implement it. My personal favorite is:
- They heal over time and
- They have an area of effect
That way it requires only one or two, instead of 3+, to ensure that the marine is getting healed and it isn't an instant, invisible boost to marine health (I frequently determine how close a marine is to death by counting my hits, such that the instant heal effect of medpacks screw that up).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still don't think the instant health gain is the real problem. All your examples indicate spam, and what isn't OP when spammed. Receiving meds has always been part of combat, it is balanced around that. What you propose would make meds largely useless in combat, because of the high burst damage of most lifeforms. The AoE effect would also force marines to wait in an area to heal up, which is somewhat tedious.
It may not be ideal, but would be a step foward for the current build.
That feels the best based on all of the test competitive games I've played so far. Medpack spam really isn't a big deal. I've complained about med-spam, but it's never felt over-powered or under-powered. There's a clear trade-off to teching when spamming meds as countless people have mentioned already.
Meds working as a heal over time won't work. Commanders can't respond quick enough to make it work without having the duration of heal be so short it might as well be instant. Simple as that.
The only time marines are spamming meds and aliens feel helpless is when they stop biting res nodes. And they have only themselves to blame for that with the exception of maybe nanoconstruct.
If nanoconstruct wasn't always cost efficient for rebuilding RT's, biting res nodes mid-to-late game would do much more. So if you really want to stop medspam, stop nanoconstruct.
Instead of dealing with separate medpack and nanoshield, just combine the two of them together. You get healed for the duration of the shield, and you have more protection to survive. As an example, the shield stay for 10 seconds, healing 5 HP/sec for 50 HP total. Bump up the price of the medshield, and I think you're ready to go.
Using medshield would be like activating "boost mode" for marines. It would also enhance the tactical decision behind its activation. If you use it before the marine get attacked, he gets more armor in case of an attack, but he lose precious seconds of healing. If you use it after, you don't lose healing seconds, but the marine get injured more because he didn't had the armor buff when he got hit. Instead of spamming, now, you need to time your decision.
As for Aliens, it create interesting decisions too. If you wait for the shield to end before attacking, you let the marine heal up. If you attack while the shield is up, the marine is harder to kill, but you could kill him before he get healed.
Commander response time would be the same and unaffected??
Marine calls for a medpack, you click the notification, you drop a medpack or two, he is now being healed. Wala. But if he asks for it during combat you have to weigh in whether or not its worth the risk of dropping it, <i>more so than typical</i> - as he might die before he is healed - <i>as he should not be dependent on your intervention to win?.</i> (How is it up to only one commander on one team to decide which player wins?)
@hakenspit: thats an interesting POV regrading it not being removed.. but i guess i just wanted to see if anyone had an idea of how to make it work if it were to be kept on marine.. seems pretty hard to keep around. What if it was instead a damage buff, as enzyme is?
@bobrun: i like that idea.. if you increase the cost like you said.. hmm. Also if you can deploy it when its not needed for an increase in armor it would serve as a great hive siege tool, as intended!
@whee: you have a good idea, but how to communicate this to the player and the comm? (Great fix to the hard counter of poison btw!!)
Instead of dealing with separate medpack and nanoshield, just combine the two of them together. You get healed for the duration of the shield, and you have more protection to survive. As an example, the shield stay for 10 seconds, healing 5 HP/sec for 50 HP total. Bump up the price of the medshield, and I think you're ready to go.
Using medshield would be like activating "boost mode" for marines. It would also enhance the tactical decision behind its activation. If you use it before the marine get attacked, he gets more armor in case of an attack, but he lose precious seconds of healing. If you use it after, you don't lose healing seconds, but the marine get injured more because he didn't had the armor buff when he got hit. Instead of spamming, now, you need to time your decision.
As for Aliens, it create interesting decisions too. If you wait for the shield to end before attacking, you let the marine heal up. If you attack while the shield is up, the marine is harder to kill, but you could kill him before he get healed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually quite like this idea. The numbers would have to be tweaked though - the heal should be much faster (20 heal per second for 5 seconds for instance). It could be an idea to have it only heal in the beginning and making the shielding component something that can be upgraded to.
Finish off by making marines unable to pick up more meds when one is active and you're done. It'd need balancing, but it would definitely remove spam.
It's kind of interesting how the whole thing goes. I feel that in some ways interfering with the FPS side is what makes commanding stand out and prevents it from being a horribly shallow and frustrating RTS that someone plays while others get to do all the fun stuff. Leadership and strategical calls are somewhat interesting, but leadership heavily relies on your teammates cooperating and strategy section is already heavily hindered and limited by the fact that your field marines are supposed to have all the toys and get to see all the action.
I definitely do think infestation spikes or nano shield are not the ways to go with the interfering, but at the same something feels almost necessary or you'll have to forcibly lock people to the chair in the long run. At some point I was hoping that MACs would actually be microable enough that you could participate on the actual gameplay without slamming down almighty spells from the sky, but I don't think that's an option anymore. Right now I just don't know.
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As for medpacking, I think it's important that it has got 'overlapping' actions. In NS1 there was the sound scouting. Basically it gave a reason to do something else than to hover over your main squad. You could for example leave your base a bit more open for aliens and rely on you hearing out the incoming baserush before it hits.
Finding a good combination of medpacking and scouting was one of the more interesting things in a game as situational as NS. The whole thing rewarded situational awarness and game understanding and could always be improved by reading a bit more details and adjusting.
So what if a commander spams medkits in combat? Especially early on that is costing him quite a bit of t.res. Surely you'd rather have their commander waste res on that then on teching up? And how is this any different from NS 1? In addition, like Yuuki said, it's one of those tasks that make the Marine commander different from the alien one, and quite engaging/rewarding. Taking it away would only serve to water down yet another great feature from NS 1.
The ideas/variations as to how it can be implemented are seemingly limited with most simply calling for med for marines nano for objects.
I think if its damage reduction scaled to armour levels as per previous post that it can stay as a marine player buff but with only exo seeing the full damage reduction that it offers now. The faster building could also be scaled (though I think it should be capped at 200% (exo maybe capped at 50%)). Obviously the cost remains static regardless of the effectiveness (ie how many nanodes is being carried in their armour)
I guess it might be hard to code as its dynamic boost based on the marines fitout/armour level. Has a certain level of logic to it...also enables for a downside to taking a JP which currently their is not (unless you count less frequent deaths as a downer).
Increasing damage done by marine weapons is not really needed, they already get scaled up with tech so a short term boost I see as not needed (you die enough from 1-2 shotters as it is).
I think short of saying nano is for buildings med for players that the scaled option for it would be good. It would be less useful early in game and more useful later in game.
A good place to start is a direct comparison of its usage in combat where the lines are perhaps most blurry - it's difficult to argue which is better. On the one hand, an inexperienced commander can drop a nano-shield and just bugger off while medpacking would require his sustained attention, more skill and cost more (especially with misses). On the other hand, an experienced commander can medpack a group of marines very effectively and grant higher survivability, albeit at a significant cost (fewer misses, also). Basically, medpacking is a more skill-indexed skill than nano-shield which is good for the game and is especially important in giving the commander stuff to do that makes him feel useful. The only problem here that I see is the upper skill bounds of medpack usage and whether it's too powerful. I don't think it is; i've never felt really OP'd by them in NS2 and they're similar enough to compare them to NS1's implementation where fantastic commanders were always beatable.
Where I think medpacks leave nano-shield behind is in their additional functionality. Medpacks are useful out of combat. Medpacks can be spread amongst a group of marines. Medpacks can be applied more liberally and/or more conservatively (you can medpack at the margins). Being ready with medpacks and then sustaining them is a tradeoff against the value of good scouting. I just think that medpacks are really well implemented, tried and trusted and that we shouldn't fix what isn't broken. I think this, and the imminent release of NS2, is enough reason to avoid HoT-medpacks, whether or whether not they would be better (I don't think they would).
The only way I see nano-shield continuing to exist is as structure-only. It's really not necessary to have another player damage-reduction ability when we have one that works already. What I do recognise is the need for interesting commander res-sinks but nano-shield is not the answer to that.
I think we would get much better gameplay without those abilitys. (some adjustments needed ofc)
The synergy between nanoshield and medpacks is just too great, and reducing the effect to an acceptable form would make it not really worth using over medpacks.
While it could be some kind of equivalent to medpacks just for structures, its not too much fun from an alien perspective... (stuff like beeing able to have all marines somewhere on the map, while 1-2 aliens try to eat stuff in your base - you just spam nano<u>shield</u>(edit not construct ofc ^^) instead of having to use beacon early - even tho you heavily overextended and should have to use beacon because aliens did the right thing and sneaked in your base at the perfect moment)
Playing around "last second"(63 days [-18= <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>or 45 Days</b> without weekends<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->] to stay with summer release) with how medpacks work, is the worst idea there can be... this is kinda a core ability for marines since ns1, a lot of stuff is balanced around. (like damage values of aliens, armor of marines etc.)
Maybe if nanoshield for structures only was 2nd CC like infestation spikes are 2nd hive it would feel better, idk.
Finish off by making marines unable to pick up more meds when one is active and you're done. It'd need balancing, but it would definitely remove spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it need to be tested first, because there's many way it could be implemented. We could use a "small boost" model, that gives protection and heal 50 HP over time. It would be relatively cheap, and could be use to help marines hold their ground.
We could use a "huge boost" model, that gives protection and fully heal over time but cost more. It could heal maybe 200 HP over 15 seconds, giving a huge boost in survivability for the marines. It would be useful to lead an attack in aliens ground, but it would cost a lot more (something like 10 or 15 res for each medshield).
Upgrades for the medshield could also be interesting. The basic level of this shield could have no protection and heal 50 HP over 10 seconds. You could upgrade the heal component (like 75 HP over 7 seconds), or, like you said, upgrade the nanoshield component on it. It adds another res sink for the marines, and offer interesting tactical choices for the commander.
I think it solves the main problems:
-Spam is solved, since you have to wait for the medshield to end, and it cost more.
-Too powerful buff is solved, since you have the two components merged in one, where you have absolute control for balance. With medpacks + nanoshield, marines could have 4 states: Normal, Healed, Shielded, Healed + Shielded. Now, you only have two states: Normal and Medshield. It's a lot easier to balance.