Nanospam + Medspam

crypt

<i>For all those who have contributed:</i> <b>Your collected ideas have been submitted and viewed by Flayra. Mission accomplished :) Thanks for all your feedback! </b>

Ironhorse kindly asked to create a new thread to discuss the problems that still currently exists due to nanoshield and possible medspam.

<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regarding nanospam + medspam.. its been raised many times. Ideas bounced around. Long subject open to many opinions. But the issue is known at least?
IF you guys compile a list of ideas of how to fix it besides simply removing it, in another thread, that'd be powerfully helpful and i can bring it to their attention for consideration?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Below I'll try to compile some ideas that other people suggested:
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Make it work only on structures. Implemented and tested in many games, it works well.
- Give it some hp, so it can only take 1 or 2 bites.
- More complicated things about making it covering only part of the body so it need some skill to use.

-nanoshielded marine cannot pick up medpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->turn medpacks into a heal over time<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My idea was to have the mac be in the area in order to cast nanoshield, just like drifters needing to be around for enzyme. Casting abilities requiring a fragile, dumb, AI really seems to cut down on the frequency of use, availability and increase the commander skill ceiling requiring thinking ahead.
Of course they wouldnt be tied to robo factory anymore..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My personal favorite is:
- They heal over time and
- They have an area of effect<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- We could change it so every direct attack hit(gas or poison not included) a marine or structure takes reduces the uptime of nanoshield by 0.5-1second...
- Make the timing based on the amount of armor the structures or marine has when getting nanoshield <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119488&view=findpost&p=1952631" target="_blank">Link to post</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about Nano XOR Medpack?
Once your 'nanoed' you can no longer recieve medpacks/ammo from the commander until the nano runs out?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Medpacks only become a problem when combined with nanoshield, not the other way around. Remove nanoshield (or make it structure only) and woosh, problem solved. Medpack cost probably needs to be increased at some point, but that's an unrelated issue.

New Ability nanite boost (implementing both nanoshield and nanocon in a unified model) / bacterial injection <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119494&view=findpost&p=1952878" target="_blank">Link to post</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think Nano-Shield should have a CD, not in casting it but in receiving it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=bobrun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bobrun)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead of dealing with separate medpack and nanoshield, just combine the two of them together. You get healed for the duration of the shield, and you have more protection to survive. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119488&view=findpost&p=1952733" target="_blank">Link to post</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(reached max number of quotes)
<b>Wheeee</b>:
rather than halve the damage done to nanoshielded structures or players, perhaps nanoshield should reduce damage done to armor by 50-75%. that way it doesn't overlap with medpacks, promotes the use of welders (nanoshielded marines without any armor die just as fast as un-shielded ones), and makes lerk gas and poison bite more valuable.

<b>hakenspit</b>:
Limit nano to marines who have exo but not JP's or vanilla marines on a sliding scale. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119488&view=findpost&p=1952717" target="_blank">Link to post</a>

<b>Eh?</b>:
Maybe if nanoshield for structures only was 2nd CC like infestation spikes are 2nd hive it would feel better

IronHorse

<b>i really like the heal over time mechanic!!</b> that would solve that frustrating "commander interfering with FPS" issue..

The idea of it only working on structures is akin to removing it. Before we go there, or get to that point, can we try and think of ways to implement it on marines still for it's intended purpose? Which is to help with a push into a hive room / break a base.

My idea was to have the mac be in the area in order to cast nanoshield, just like drifters needing to be around for enzyme. Casting abilities requiring a fragile, dumb, AI really seems to cut down on the frequency of use, availability and increase the commander skill ceiling requiring thinking ahead.
Of course they wouldnt be tied to robo factory anymore..

dislike the complexity of it working only on certain body parts, though.. i cant see any skulk aiming for just the elbow in combat :-P

Edit: thanks crypt!

rantology

I still think having it work on structures only is the best option.

DggMuffin

I feel like the biggest reason nanoshield is overpowered is because of the constant medpack spam. If meds were a heal over time, a nano'd marine vs a frenzy'd skulk would be fairly balanced.

I have personally nano'd a stomped marine (1v1 vs onos) and mass dropped medpacks while he got up and shot the onos down to under 20% health with a shotgun (not even 3/3 upgrades at the time, a little ridiculous imo)

Hunter.S.T.

i quite like nanoshield the way it is :) there i said it lol

Yuuki

I don't think heal over time - or any medpack change - would work because either :

- Medpacking is still efficient and then it wouldn't change anything when used with nanoshield.

Or

- Medpacking is nerfed when used without nanoshield. This is an enormous balance change, and we probably do not want to go there a few weeks before release.

<!--quoteo(post=1952572:date=Jul 19 2012, 04:28 PM:name=Hunter.S.T.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hunter.S.T. @ Jul 19 2012, 04:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952572"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i quite like nanoshield the way it is :) there i said it lol<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You're so dirty, I always feel ashamed when I miss all my bullets on two skulks and still kill them with the axe.

Typhon

I like the structures only idea. I don't see how that's akin to removing it. Halving damage against a structure for a few seconds can be critically important, but it isn't anywhere near as frustrating for the aliens as making an unkillable marine.

As for enabling pushes into a hive room? Marines have tons of options there already: arcs, grenades, (exo), emp.

Heal over time for medpacks would be a good change even without nano in the game.

Maybe just prevent nano'd marines from picking up items (med, ammo, cat packs if those ever return) or being welded? That way you can create a resilient, but not invincible, marine?

IronHorse

Structure only defeats the intended purpose of it. So before we go there, try and come up with ways to make it work still on marines..

Notice how no one calls for enzymes to be structure only? Frequency / availability of use has a lot to do with this imo

@yuuki: it would help with the frustration of a commander spamming medpacks to help his marine win a fight against you - this of course being completely against the high level design doc of commander influencing too much on the battlefield/FPS side of things. if that medpack took 10 seconds to heal (and not fully heal, btw, just to the level it does now) then that would have a huge impact on fights between aliens and marines - and if nothing else remove that frustration. (notice how fades blinking away for a quick heal from a crag or gorge before returning back is somehow acceptable?)

Nakorson

<!--quoteo(post=1952580:date=Jul 19 2012, 10:37 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 19 2012, 10:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Structure only defeats the intended purpose of it. So before we go there, try and come up with ways to make it work still on marines..

Notice how no one calls for enzymes to be structure only? Frequency / availability of use has a lot to do with this imo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The problem about enzyme is that you need a drifter nearby, and since they decloak now when using enzyme. Also that drifters are easily decloaked already by stray bullets, observatory and scans. Nano shield can be used without any fragile support unit nearby.

rantology

Enzyme is completely different as said before, it's not really comparable to nanoshield (does it even work on structres?). It requires a drifter (which can be easily killed), and it does not prevent you from killing the player it's casted on.


If the purpose of nanoshield was to prevent damage to players in the first place then it was a fundamentally flawed mechanic to begin with. When you have damage reduction and HP healing in the same arena they will<i> always</i> be used in conjunction with each other. Which in the case of an FPS, it provides a massive artificial skill handicap that's not enjoyable for anyone involved.

Nerfing medpacks would likely not solve the issue either, you either nerf them so that they are completely useless in combat, or you don't nerf them enough and the current nano+med problem persists. I'm fine with meds the way they are now imo. The way I see it medpacks and cysts are equally obnoxious, both teams have their 1tres advantages (both of which are very powerful- but asymmetric which I think is cool)

Yuuki

I'm not saying nerfing medpacks cannot work but only that

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is an enormous balance change, and we probably do not want to go there a few weeks before release.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Also dropping precisely single medpacks is about the only micro thing the commander can do, and bring some interesting interaction between the commander and the other players. I think medpacks are fine.

Another simple solution : nanoshielded marine cannot pick up medpacks.

Nakorson

<!--quoteo(post=1952585:date=Jul 19 2012, 10:49 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 19 2012, 10:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not saying nerfing medpacks cannot work but only that



Also dropping precisely single medpacks is about the only micro thing the commander can do, and bring some interesting interaction between the commander and the other players. I think medpacks are fine.

Another simple solution : nanoshielded marine cannot pick up medpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Medpack, Ammo, Nanoshield and Scan and EMP are things the commander can do during the comabt to support the players.

The Khamm currently has only enzyme. And _only_ when you fight in alien territory spikes and when he has the needed structures nearby he can use ink and heal.

xDragon

Enzyme doesnt get used because its tied to a AI unit that IMO is extremely frustrating to use.. Sometimes to get 1 meter to the left it leaves the room and goes halfway around the map.. Doing the same to nano would 'fix' the problem by making it hardly used, yes.

The point of removing nano from players is that you are basically granting the commander two abilities that do very similar things. Medspamming a single marine against skulks requires the commanders complete attention, and very careful placement as generally two quick bites is all it takes for the marine to still die. Its pretty easy to bait marines forward or sideways away from the meds so that the comm misses for a second and you get the kill, medspam alone is relatively easy to counter by not just mindlessly attacking and expecting to get the kill.. Nanoshield medspam basically makes it so the comm does not need to pay nearly as much attention, as the extra bite requirement for skulks makes it so you med alot slower, and can flip back and forth and still keep the marine alive. It also makes it much harder to pull the marine off the meds for the kill, as now you need 3 (or 4 depending on how early he got nano'd because of armor) bites to kill, which makes it that much easier for the commander to catch up and land a med on the marine.

TimMc

Nanoshield isn't so bad without medpack spam. Once medpacks are changed to healing over time, I think there will be no more issues.

xDragon

Once???... i seriously hope that medpacks are not changed to a heal over time, it will basically make them hardly used, or wont change anything, depending on how its balanced. I dont see why you would change the previously available ability that wasnt overpowered to compenstate for the ability that is overpowered when combined... It makes more sense to change nanoshield. If you give it a set damage absorption then it will not be used on buildings.. The easiest solution is to balance it as a building only shield.

TimMc

<!--quoteo(post=1952587:date=Jul 19 2012, 11:55 AM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 19 2012, 11:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952587"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Medpack, Ammo, Nanoshield and Scan and EMP are things the commander can do during the comabt to support the players.

The Khamm currently has only enzyme. And _only_ when you fight in alien territory spikes and when he has the needed structures nearby he can use ink and heal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

AND enzyme requires a drifter nearby. I can only imagine the rage if they made it so you needed a MAC nearby to give out nanoshield or medpacks.

blind

About the heal-over-time idea contemplating the design goal to let commanders not have too much influence on FPS aspect:


Medpacks were amazing as they have been designed in NS1.

1. They gave a commander a real important job besides clicking the same buildings. Just imagine how incredibly boring would a SC2 be without micromanaging your units.
2. They delivered an easy-to-learn-but-difficult-to-master mechanics. How easy is it for a 1st time comm to drop a med? But how damn hard can it be to be like everywhere at once (med 5 marines at 2 fronts at the same time while dropping structures and hitting upgrade timings and listen to alien movements or find out about hives/rts)? Pro comms hovered like 80-90% of their game time over the marines with a med ready to drop, especially over the SG guy in the pressure team.
3. Medding and medspamming especially had interesting decision makings involved - while a medspam could kill a fade, or increase the chance of a capper marine saving nodes during an ambush by roughly 300%, it came at a very high cost. Don't forget that 5 meds could already buy you a shotgun or a minepack.
4. Medspam also introduced a highly interesting risk-mechanic for fades - the decision making whether or not to go for the kill wasn't easy made once you saw the meds coming, sometimes it had a higher tactical purpose, like keeping a fade busy on 1 marine for 2 more seconds so the shotgunner could trap the fade around the next corner.

Basically have meds, the use/cost calculations and their tactical influences as well as skill improvement possibilities for commanders, an almost perfect balance in NS1. A good measurement for that is, that even after all these years of NS1 v3.2 competitive players still argued up to the very last competitive season on what commanders should do, whether medspam was useful or just a waste of res. Regarding that fact it is obvious that the decision making in medspamming in NS1 was the exact opposite of what upgrade a fade should have ("go cele/cara/focus stupid!"). Obvious decisions aren't really decisions, and it's pretty hard to get a mechanic working that develops interesting ones.


TLDR; why change a good mechanic for some MMORPG like healing style bull****?

Nanoshield, though, is a different story than meds. I think it's a redundant feature since you have meds (both are a powerup-kind feature from god to a FPS player), and I don't really care if it stays, nerfed or not. Unless, of course, you remove medding completely. But then you'll have a great time (at least 20-30% game time every round) running to armories over and over for every damage you took - sounds fun, doesn't it?

ScardyBob

Medpacks have always been OP. I've medpacked marines enough so that they've solo killed hives, taken out 3+ skulks alone, and even killed fades. They are the posterchild of tedious and unnecessary micro brought into NS2, especially when there are far better ways to implement it. My personal favorite is:
- They heal over time and
- They have an area of effect

That way it requires only one or two, instead of 3+, to ensure that the marine is getting healed and it isn't an instant, invisible boost to marine health (I frequently determine how close a marine is to death by counting my hits, such that the instant heal effect of medpacks screw that up).

xDragon

Medpacks that can be spammed are OP, as it almost anything when spammed.. IF they cost 2tres per medpack, you wouldnt see them spammed nearly as much, and if they were it would incure a significant cost to the tech progression of the marines.

The problem with changing them to heal over time is it will completely break early game skulk vs marine.. Medpacks are arguably required when dealing with multiple ambush skulks, which is going to occur at higher levels of play.

Honestly when fighting marines that get medpacks I always hear and see the effect, so its pretty easy to adjust your bites based on what you see them getting.

MisterNubs

So the reason why some people don't want medpacks to be converted over into a heal over time mechanic is because they enjoy the huge handicap it gives them in combat. A flat, instant heal completely takes away from the fps skill level of the marine and the combat is then dictated only by how fast the Marine Commander can spam medpacks on top of the marine.

That is your fault for allowing the alien to get that close to you when you have multiple handicaps that are given to you that lets you detect aliens. Medpacks spam and nanoshield is akin to giving aliens immunity to range damage for 5 seconds.

Changing medpacks over to a HoT mechanic reduces its effectiveness in combat situations and converts over to something that is used to heal a marine after combat ends. It should be something that the Commander drops for his Marine when an armory isn't ideal.

---

Nano-shield can either be changed to requiring a MAC, but that would mean nano-construct will have to be axed from the game as Marines no longer have the excuse that they have to build something which takes them out of the game for a very short period.

As long as it doesn't require a MAC, then it should only absorb 1 hit from the aliens. That would also gimp it's structure usefulness. So it's either one, structures or marines only.

xDragon

I think you completely misunderstood my point... but saying I want instant heal medpacks to carry my poor FPS skill is pretty unnecessary.

Skulk vs Marine gameplay is arguably balanced around instant heal medpacks to an extent currently. But most public players dont realize it much as they do not parasite two bite marines frequently, or ambush.

Maybe with hit detection improvements the gameplay will be different, but I cannot see early game being balanced with HoT medpacks, unless the duration is really short.

Koruyo

My ideas:

- We could change it so every direct attack hit(gas or poison not included) a marine or structure takes reduces the uptime of nanoshield by 0.5-1second...

This would still make it useful in 1v1 situations but not as much, and you would have a good counter against nano having a lerk (if we still have spikes then ?) or attacking in a pack.(or having close hydras/whips etc)


- Make the timing based on the amount of armor the structures or marine has when getting nanoshield, so a marine with full health and armor would have eg. 5s uptime but a damaged one maybe only 2s(using a % of total armor left to get to the value, maybe have a minimum timer of 2s so its not frustrating for comms to figure out who they can or cant shield) which is more or less only 1-2 attacks at best. (or a reduced rate of absorption instead of changed timings?)

This might be another push for welder use(and it needs the commander to be aware about marines before they get attacked - since damaged marines wont have as big of an effect), and make sure a more or less dead marine wont win those sometimes occuring 1min axe fights with 3million medpacks (since once the armor is gone its not worth more than a medpack/ doesnt have such great synergy anymore)


Maybe a combination of both ideas.

Both are not too complicated to understand, and not too hard to implement i guess.


edit: i seriously dislike the idea of medpacks being hots... but im too lazy to sum up my thoughts about that(potential wall of text) :P

MisterNubs

<!--quoteo(post=1952629:date=Jul 19 2012, 04:12 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jul 19 2012, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you completely misunderstood my point... but saying I want instant heal medpacks to carry my poor FPS skill is pretty unnecessary.

Skulk vs Marine gameplay is arguably balanced around instant heal medpacks to an extent currently. But most public players dont realize it much as they do not parasite two bite marines frequently, or ambush.

Maybe with hit detection improvements the gameplay will be different, but I cannot see early game being balanced with HoT medpacks, unless the duration is really short.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Skulk vs Marine was balanced out by tying leap back to two hives and carapace slowing down skulks so they're easier to hit.

It's not just only early game that nanoshield+medpack causes problems. It's a problem during late game when marines have a3 and a single marine can solo 3-4 skulks or hive.

OnosFactory

How about Nano XOR Medpack?

Once your 'nanoed' you can no longer recieve medpacks/ammo from the commander until the nano runs out?

TimMc

<!--quoteo(post=1952648:date=Jul 19 2012, 04:19 PM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Jul 19 2012, 04:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about Nano XOR Medpack?

Once your 'nanoed' you can no longer recieve medpacks/ammo from the commander until the nano runs out?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Nice idea but not very obvious. Suppose only have to make the mistake once though.

Joracy

I still really like the idea of heal over time, especially as an area of effect (and likely more expensive therefore). It incentives marines sticking together, and reduces it's efficiency when used on a single marine soloing a hive/upgrades/etc, although it remains possible. I suppose as a HOT/AoE theoretically it's also counterable by a lerk gassing that area, reducing or removing the heal, as that area that had the HoT effect would become kind of a key area for the fight. I think it could make gameplay more interesting for both sides.

Yuuki

<!--quoteo(post=1952648:date=Jul 19 2012, 09:19 PM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Jul 19 2012, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about Nano XOR Medpack?

Once your 'nanoed' you can no longer recieve medpacks/ammo from the commander until the nano runs out?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Yep, simplest solution and make total sense. Something that prevent bites to reach you probably prevent soft medpacks as well.

marks

Am I the only person thinking "well, in NS1 not one SINGLE competetive player whined about medspam..." ?

There are<b> legitimate </b>disadvantages to doing it, which are <b>significant</b> in overall gameplay balance. Removing the option of medspamming a single marine (which, by the way, <u>even for the top commanders in the <b>world</b></u> is <u><b>INCREDIBLY</b></u> difficult to hit that marine with every single medpack) is simply removing a tactical choice/option from the game, and therefore dumbing down/stagnating the gameplay.

The commander's role in NS1 was sidelined enough as it was, you <b>literally</b> spent 80% of your time minimum hovering your screen over marines with medpack selected. Don't neglect it further in NS2.

Charlie, look at me. Don't do it. Please.

cake.

A fixed amount of medpacks a single player can pick up during a fixed amount of time? Or during one life? Easy to explain (medpacks are essentially drugs - too many drugs = not good for u), reasonable.

fanatic

Medpacks only become a problem when combined with nanoshield, not the other way around. Remove nanoshield (or make it structure only) and woosh, problem solved. Medpack cost probably needs to be increased at some point, but that's an unrelated issue.

Can anybody even tell me what gameplay function nanoshield on players was supposed to serve (other than combat support, which medpacks already fulfill)?

KISS. Get rid of nanoshield (and nanoconstruct while you're at it).

Raza.

I don't play Comm often enough to have a feeling for this, so a question for the regular commanders: Is it possible to spam med packs consistently without putting a dent in your economy? In NS1 meds were pretty balanced because spamming them caused the Marines to fall behind in tech and equipment. If regular med spam is possible in NS2 with a normal amount of Extractors, then make meds more expensive.

Otherwise med packs are fine. They are really the only micro ability that requires high attention from the Comm.

Nano Shield on the other hand should just be removed, it's redundant.