Vortex
Locklear
[nexzil]kerrigan Join Date: 2012-05-01 Member: 151403Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow
[nexzil]kerrigan Join Date: 2012-05-01 Member: 151403Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">& why it needs to be looked at.</div>Hi everyone, I'm Locklear. I will shed a little light on my background and I guess my "credentials".
I played your standard FPS games for a long time. I was always a better than average player but I don't claim a ton of skill in that genre.
What I <b>do</b> know a lot about is RTS along with the balance, mechanics and other things involved in those games.
I don't like to toot my own horn but I know some people like to toss aside ideas or discussion because they don't feel the person speaking is "skilled" or knows jack.
<img src="http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc111/c0devero/relic00032-1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I played with a good partner and my casual buddy on the same account. Thus the "meh" W:L in comparison to the other players ;)
I was top100 in the 1v1ladder as well as 2v2 for an RTS called Dawn of War II consistently since about 2010 to Spring 2012 when I stopped playing due to the developers dropping support for the game.
One of my more popular replays: <a href="http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/replays.php?game=47&show=details&id=245851" target="_blank">http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/repl...s&id=245851</a>
Anyways, enough about me.
____
Take a look at this video: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-oRM6xqfqg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-oRM6xqfqg</a>
____
That ability is called phase shift from that game: Dawn of War II. It completely disables entire armies that are caught in it's AoE. No damage can be done to them, they can do nothing except stand there.
This was for a long time considered <b>very</b> imbalanced by the community.
You could be outplaying your opponent the entire game and suddenly he gets this "ability", teleports straight into your army (unavoidable) ... and then <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>wham your entire army is disabled.</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> This would open the player using the ability up to several different combinations he could use with Phase Shift in order to wipe out entire armies like the video displayed above. In Dawn of War II, that is a crippling blow and basically the end of the game.
It has received different nerfs over the course of the game's lifetime but was never entirely fixed to be a fair ability imo.
Sounds familiar to what Vortex is like doesn't it? Unavoidable, disables entire areas, allows the team to move in and surround marines/structires resulting in easy mode, mass carnage... :\
Even if you don't catch the entire area in the AoE, the DPS of the marines unaffected is rarely going to be enough if there's more than one Fade.
This kind of ability and mechanic is just really hard to make work in a game while maintaining skill and fun factor.
It takes away control from the player(s) it is being used on. <i><b>Nobody</b></i> likes that. It's just something that should either be implemented in such a way that it doesn't last very long, has a very small AoE, or has a way it can be avoided if the skill is there.
There's no fun to it (except for the person using it since he's basically opening his team/himself up to a really easy kill), it doesn't create skill ceiling.. it's just unfair.
That is why I believe it needs to be looked at before NS2 1.0 is released and this ability is being used by the entire player base this game will get upon launch.
I won't propose an exact plan of action on how to make it work because I think those sorts of abilities don't really belong in a esport/game that aims to be very balanced and fair period, but that's just me.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->I sincerely hope you read this suggestion and understand where I'm coming from. This ability has the potential to cause a lot of imbalance and frustration in the player community once players discover how good it actually is to have the power to completely disable areas and create situations where the Marines can literally do nothing while the Aliens close in for the kill/rape the power node while the entire marine team is in "la la" land.
As it is right now, a team could potentially go for a strategy such as that with Blink upgrade first researched by the Khammander followed shortly by Vortex and with the Fades using Vortex completely disable a marine base while the skulks munch on the power. Potentially creating a "GG" effect without the marines even having a way to fight back.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Both bugs, mechanics and abilities just like this one led to Dawn of War II never becoming an esport and becoming a popular RTS game in comparison to something like SC2. Let's not make the same mistake here. I'm not saying this ability will be the downfall of NS2 or something drastic like that but this is definitely something that needs to be looked at on a balance/design level.
I played your standard FPS games for a long time. I was always a better than average player but I don't claim a ton of skill in that genre.
What I <b>do</b> know a lot about is RTS along with the balance, mechanics and other things involved in those games.
I don't like to toot my own horn but I know some people like to toss aside ideas or discussion because they don't feel the person speaking is "skilled" or knows jack.
<img src="http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc111/c0devero/relic00032-1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I played with a good partner and my casual buddy on the same account. Thus the "meh" W:L in comparison to the other players ;)
I was top100 in the 1v1ladder as well as 2v2 for an RTS called Dawn of War II consistently since about 2010 to Spring 2012 when I stopped playing due to the developers dropping support for the game.
One of my more popular replays: <a href="http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/replays.php?game=47&show=details&id=245851" target="_blank">http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/repl...s&id=245851</a>
Anyways, enough about me.
____
Take a look at this video: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-oRM6xqfqg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-oRM6xqfqg</a>
____
That ability is called phase shift from that game: Dawn of War II. It completely disables entire armies that are caught in it's AoE. No damage can be done to them, they can do nothing except stand there.
This was for a long time considered <b>very</b> imbalanced by the community.
You could be outplaying your opponent the entire game and suddenly he gets this "ability", teleports straight into your army (unavoidable) ... and then <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>wham your entire army is disabled.</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> This would open the player using the ability up to several different combinations he could use with Phase Shift in order to wipe out entire armies like the video displayed above. In Dawn of War II, that is a crippling blow and basically the end of the game.
It has received different nerfs over the course of the game's lifetime but was never entirely fixed to be a fair ability imo.
Sounds familiar to what Vortex is like doesn't it? Unavoidable, disables entire areas, allows the team to move in and surround marines/structires resulting in easy mode, mass carnage... :\
Even if you don't catch the entire area in the AoE, the DPS of the marines unaffected is rarely going to be enough if there's more than one Fade.
This kind of ability and mechanic is just really hard to make work in a game while maintaining skill and fun factor.
It takes away control from the player(s) it is being used on. <i><b>Nobody</b></i> likes that. It's just something that should either be implemented in such a way that it doesn't last very long, has a very small AoE, or has a way it can be avoided if the skill is there.
There's no fun to it (except for the person using it since he's basically opening his team/himself up to a really easy kill), it doesn't create skill ceiling.. it's just unfair.
That is why I believe it needs to be looked at before NS2 1.0 is released and this ability is being used by the entire player base this game will get upon launch.
I won't propose an exact plan of action on how to make it work because I think those sorts of abilities don't really belong in a esport/game that aims to be very balanced and fair period, but that's just me.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->I sincerely hope you read this suggestion and understand where I'm coming from. This ability has the potential to cause a lot of imbalance and frustration in the player community once players discover how good it actually is to have the power to completely disable areas and create situations where the Marines can literally do nothing while the Aliens close in for the kill/rape the power node while the entire marine team is in "la la" land.
As it is right now, a team could potentially go for a strategy such as that with Blink upgrade first researched by the Khammander followed shortly by Vortex and with the Fades using Vortex completely disable a marine base while the skulks munch on the power. Potentially creating a "GG" effect without the marines even having a way to fight back.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Both bugs, mechanics and abilities just like this one led to Dawn of War II never becoming an esport and becoming a popular RTS game in comparison to something like SC2. Let's not make the same mistake here. I'm not saying this ability will be the downfall of NS2 or something drastic like that but this is definitely something that needs to be looked at on a balance/design level.
Comments
It's easy to spam
Name was lolGORGEous, peaked at TS44 I believe.
<a href="http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/replays.php?game=47&show=details&id=90097" target="_blank">http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/repl...ls&id=90097</a>
<a href="http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/replays.php?game=47&show=details&id=90043" target="_blank">http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/repl...ls&id=90043</a>
And the infamous TYRANID HERD:
<a href="http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/replays.php?game=47&show=details&id=73061" target="_blank">http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/repl...ls&id=73061</a>
P.S.
I agree, vortex is dumb. It's too spammable. The fact that fades (a KILLING class) can chain CC things like phase gates or individual marines is broken and unfun. Any spammable CC is bad in any game type. It's even worse in FPS. CC abilities should be strategic abilities that are only good if used at the perfect moment.
It's also getting removed in Heart of the Swarm (the SC2 Zerg expansion). Shows you that AOE CC's are terrible game mechanics.
Maybe the same effect visually but reduced damage for the marine firing? Maybe something that makes the marines just slower moving? Those would be fun to use, effective and make the ability worth using in a way that doesn't entirely disable marines.
The current state is just a disaster waiting to happen.
1. Marines in Vortex can still move freely.
2. Marines can still reload while inside Vortex.
3. There isn't any massive AOE damage weapon for aliens.
So although Vortex is quite powerful and needs more tweaking, it is nowhere near as powerful as the spell you mentioned, or the Vortex in SC2.
1. Marines in Vortex can still move freely.
2. Marines can still reload while inside Vortex.
3. There isn't any massive AOE damage weapon for aliens.
So although Vortex is quite powerful and needs more tweaking, it is nowhere near as powerful as the spell you mentioned, or the Vortex in SC2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's not powerful about disabling entire bases and allowing the power node to be GG'd without a chance of repel?
1. Who cares if you can move if you can do nothing to save your base.
2. Reloading? Really? That's a big difference?
3. Yes, but there's a really easy way to bring the marines to their knees while they are disabled and that is called the power node.
1. Who cares if you can move if you can do nothing to save your base.
2. Reloading? Really? That's a big difference?
3. Yes, but there's a really easy way to bring the marines to their knees while they are disabled and that is called the power node.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All i do is go in a base. votex the ips and go for the obs. just take 2 guys to take out a base.
This, or make it single target and not aoe. As soon as something enters the vortex it expends it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I much rather have Acid Rockets back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or they could make vortex into the new acid rocket (ie no longer a cc) and the fade shoots it forward like a discus. You know since the fade no longer has the acid rocket appendage.
Agreed!
Great post Locklear, I hope it gets some attention!
I walked up to a phase gate and disabled it instantly, stopping an entire marine team's push.
Before Vortex (including NS1), you would need to allocate multiple players to attack the gate, and focus hard on killing players as they enter the area so you can kill the gate.
Now you click a button on it.
Why does anyone think this is good for the game?
I imagine in non-pub situations it would get abused to hell and back. Needs to be looked at if its as bad as you guys say.
What i got was a non-damaging CC ability that effectively removes a player or structure from the game temporarily, rendering them useless but ultimately unharmed.
The fade has never really had abilities to work against structures in NS1 or 2 (acid rocket was more of an anti-player) or been the type of life form to support his team in any other way than killing the enemy, so why give him a non-lethal supportive ability now?
In match you can do strategie whit it like disabling obs during ppl eating CC etc ...
And when you play whit skilled ppl its not easy to go on base vortex escape revortex etcc moreover when HA will come up .
And a vortex can not disable all base else your are bad TP and skill because whit sg its easy for a marine to kill a fade in MS trying to vortex obs or something else.
Just think about vortex in public is pretty useless but un gather/match its verry important things when ppl play together whit a strategie in mind.
And vortex is completely counterable by two marines in MS or by doing 2 obs etc ....
Maybe he can take the entire base in public but i want to see it :) but think about ARC can easily kill entirer alien base ( not just disabling it ) so its balanced more over when in vortex ypou can reload see alien etcc and you can foloow the fade who vortex and kill him when your arent vortexed...
This game NS had everytime needed a long time to master some aspect of the game so play play play again and you will had the skill and the tactics to try to counter every aliens attacks type.
If vortex is bad what we can say on four onos rushing the CC its GG for aliens everytime vortex can not do CC down in 30 sec :D ...
Peace
TuX
In match you can do strategie whit it like disabling obs during ppl eating CC etc ...
And when you play whit skilled ppl its not easy to go on base vortex escape revortex etcc moreover when HA will come up .
And a vortex can not disable all base else your are bad TP and skill because whit sg its easy for a marine to kill a fade in MS trying to vortex obs or something else.
Just think about vortex in public is pretty useless but un gather/match its verry important things when ppl play together whit a strategie in mind.
And vortex is completely counterable by two marines in MS or by doing 2 obs etc ....
Maybe he can take the entire base in public but i want to see it :) but think about ARC can easily kill entirer alien base ( not just disabling it ) so its balanced more over when in vortex ypou can reload see alien etcc and you can foloow the fade who vortex and kill him when your arent vortexed...
This game NS had everytime needed a long time to master some aspect of the game so play play play again and you will had the skill and the tactics to try to counter every aliens attacks type.
If vortex is bad what we can say on four onos rushing the CC its GG for aliens everytime vortex can not do CC down in 30 sec :D ...
Peace
TuX<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, very useful because it's imbalanced..
Skill? OK, so you're saying that you defy the physics and time and you're able to kill a Fade in one shot with a shotgun? Because that's all you have time for before he blinks in and uses Vortex on a Marine controlled area/base.
You can't kill a full HP Fade with one shot with a shotgun, no matter how good you are because of the damage values - it's not possible, it's going to blink in, then use it. Then no one can attack for a good while. If there's more than one Fade.. this simply becomes even more powerful.
I've seen two Fades lock down an entire base with coordination of two vortexes on Summit / Sub Access base setup. Meanwhile skulks or whatever else munch the power and it's GG for the Marines. I was like 22 : 6 that game, pretty much destroying them early game. It's not a matter of freaking skill. It's a matter of there's no time window, no real way to counter it when it is used in coordination and placed well.
The cooldown is so fast (no cooldown at all maybe) that the instant you are no longer Vortexed you can be Vortexed again. Charging him down after Vortex..? Nope. He's got the timing down and he's either gone or your Vortex'd again by him or another Fade.
Counterable by doing 2 obs? Try 2+ Fades? Then what? The Commander should predict these things and make a base full of observatories for every Fade on the field?
Get real man.
I don't think you understand. One ARC can do some damage but at <b>LEAST</b> the Aliens can fight back. Marines in Vortex can do nothing but sit there or move around and do nothing. That's not even comparable.
Once again on your comparisons, 4 Onos is really strong but at <b>LEAST</b> the Commander can Nano Shield the Command Station or whatever they are attacking while the Marines are actually ABLE to shoot and fire their weapons in defense. At least they can fight back, Vortex use over the entire base by 2 Fades.. can't even shoot them back. They just have to sit there being Vortexed over and over while skulks or whatever else chews the power and brings them to their knees.
Perhaps when Vortex is tied to a 2nd or 3rd Hive and isn't available really soon this won't be an issue but as it is now, it's pretty ridiculous in the right hands.
I never said one shoot of sg will kill a fade but you can do it pretty easily if playing in team like in ns1 where we trapped fade in corridor by blocking them etc but i agree vortex is not fun when your marine but its not the more unbalanced abilites :) ....
But i agree whit you if you have to good skilled fade vortex-blink your base its hard but its possible moreover if you have JP or Lvl 3 SG and a minimum of TP ( one blocking fade other trying to kill him and chase him even if your vortexed you can chase the fade ) .
A fade who is chased by three rine dont come back in your base like a flower next time :) .
And its a good balance in side where marine have godlike JP now and aliens have vortex and umbra .
And the 2 obs strategie is a good counter ( not the solution against godlike fade your are right... ) for 40 Tres abilite fade if they try to kill you base by mass skulk + fade vortex rush .
Its just frustating when playing marine and lossing game but man thaht the game natural selection; only the best won the game just if you have played ns1 they were no vortex but fade were 10* more skilled and good than now whitout vortex personnaly i prefer a fade laming vortex on my base instead of killing all alone marine and stuff all over the map :) ... i think when old fade and new player will remaster the blink/swipe you will never see again vortex on gather or match ;p moreover if adrenaline is up if focus come back that finish for vortex :) .
ps: i agree to you: vortex and leap and umbra ahve to be second and third hive abilite to clear the problem of OP abilite for early game .
And then they add in another ability that is extremely close to it in the sequel - they even said when they announced it that it was a devour replacement.
Why do that? The only thing it has that devour did not was that the player doesn't die at the end - prolly a good thing, so you aren't just digesting and getting pissed. What it gained was the ability to hit buildings, as well as multiple targets at once. So this is why I'm confused, why would the dev's bring back something they didn't like with a slight change? Arguably it is more OP now.. I don't understand what happened.
And then they add in another ability that is extremely close to it in the sequel - they even said when they announced it that it was a devour replacement.
Why do that? The only thing it has that devour did not was that the player doesn't die at the end - prolly a good thing, so you aren't just digesting and getting pissed. What it gained was the ability to hit buildings, as well as multiple targets at once. So this is why I'm confused, why would the dev's bring back something they didn't like with a slight change? Arguably it is more OP now.. I don't understand what happened.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is slightly exaggerated. Marines can still move around in Vortex, thus run out. It's nothing like devour. The only similarity with devour, is that it's a crowd control ability, but look at stomp... in my opinion this comes closer, since it disables you.
This doesn't mean that I think vortex shouldn't change - it needs to be balanced still. I'm sure they'll figure out a good way to approach this problem.
This doesn't mean that I think vortex shouldn't change - it needs to be balanced still. I'm sure they'll figure out a good way to approach this problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stomp doesn't appear until Onos and doesn't disable structures anymore. Vortex can be unlocked quite early and with a coordination of a couple fades basically do much worse than devour or stomp ever did. (Stomp at least had a sort of limit, Vortex you can spam like crazy)
I think they really need a tiering system in this game so these abilities and things like jetpacks aren't so easily achieved. 2 Command Stations for a Prototype Lab or.. 2 Hives to get Blink etc. This is more of an RTS than they've made it out to be and has to be balanced accordingly.
Have him puke black holes.
Sounds good Jaa?
But yeah, helplessness is frequently felt from the Marine perspective, as you're basically forced to spectate when you touch the vortex. If only you can fight back against the Fades somehow... here's how I'd envision it:
1) No more damage negation or invulnerability
2) Gravitational pull on Marines (stronger closer to center), dropped weapons, medpacks/ammopacks, grenades?
3) Unpower structures within vortex, regardless of room power status/power pack presence.
4) Disables robotic units ala Stomp (not vortex invuln effect)
1. means Marines and structures are no longer ethereal, so Marines can fire at will.
2. discourages Marines from clustering (often case in squads), forces them to scatter to avoid being Skulk chowder.
3. retains the structure disabling function. If you can't take out the Power Node, Vortex would be the next best thing (it's an energy anomaly for crying out loud!)
4. is a give-or-take function... do we want Vortex to do something about ARC trains still?
Some food for thought.
Every time I killed him, he would start regenerating while he was feigned and then blink out immediately. Thus me only getting a partial shot on him while blinking (even if I run ahead of his retreat path) and he gets away.. How is that balanced? He should not get a jail free card.. I went through it 3 times before I was able to finish him. It was a joke.
I would get 2-3 point blank shots on him when he attacked, kill him. Then he moves ahead and blinks out and he's gone and free again. Even if you try to predict the timing he just blinks out most of the time without issue. Like I said, it took me basically 3 fade kills to = 1.
vortex cannot be activated within a certain radius around an IP or a phase gate (marine teleport technology creates a field around these structures that prevent a fade from creating the vortex) and/or buildings can no longer be pulled into the vortex (due to their mass)
when a fade activates vortex, he his sucked into the ether aswell meaning that any marines that get sucked in can then kill him. So imagine a group of 6 marines, a fade blinks in, activates vortex, get sucked into the ether along with 2 marines. The fade has then turned a 6 vs 1 into a 2 vs 1. Should the fade die to the 2 marines in the ether, then the marines exit the ether immediately. Also the fade loses the ability to blink and/or shadowstep when hes in the ether, he can only hack away at the marines inside it. Obviously marines inside the ether cannot have nanoshield or be supported in anyway by the commander.
or perhaps make it a khamander ability
or just remove it entirely :)
when a fade activates vortex, he his sucked into the ether aswell meaning that any marines that get sucked in can then kill him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like a good way for the Fade to set up 1v1s continuously, then to escape all while in the ether.