Marines are fundamentally lacking in late game firepower
Rise
Join Date: 2012-04-17 Member: 150595Members
Join Date: 2012-04-17 Member: 150595Members
<div class="IPBDescription">A suggestion to fix it.</div>It's going to be difficult to see how the game balance goes until marines get some late game firepower to deal with a team full of onos.
Aliens have the advantage of map control because one on one aliens are stronger, making it easier for them to roam around and control the map while marines have to focus on a few key areas. Plus the nature of the alien commander makes it a lot easier for them to expand over the map.
So marines can't expect to win by resources and attrition in most cases.
Marines win by properly applying overwhelming firepower at select areas. They launch attacks as a team with heavy weapons and armor backed up by supportive firepower in the form of arcs.
But marines are lacking the late game firepower to pull this off because they don't pose enough of a threat to groups of onos to both defend and attack at the same time in the late game. It's too easy for them to get hemmed in on full time defense when you combine alien's map control prowess with a team full of onos.
Although the game design philosophy you have of no weapon being outright more powerful makes sense in theory, in practice NS1 was always balanced around the idea that marines could radically uparmor and upgun themselves.
This will happen once we get the exosuit, however, marines would still be lacking a cheap firepower alternative to the exosuit. A normal marine equipped with an HMG may have been a resource risk in NS1 if he didn't have the added surivivability of a jetpack or heavy armor yet, but he still had the option when heavy firepower was a requirement.
Therefor:
I would like to propose that if you don't add the HMG, that you change the way the flamethrower works to fill the firepower gap. I've tried to use the flamethrower a lot, finding it fills no real niche and is lackluster all around. I'd like to change that as well as solving the marine firepower problem in a way that doesn't make it an outright better version of the LMG.
The flamethrower could be the weapon that onos fear by changing it, without really affecting it's performance against the other aliens which are small and fast moving.
There should be a lingering burn effect on the flamethrower, and the longer you keep the stream of flame on a target consecutively the stronger the burn effect gets and the longer it lasts. The burn effects of multiple flamethrowers also stacks.
Skulks, lerks, and fades would all be too fast moving for this stacking effect to have much impact. The LMG would still be perferable against skulks and perhaps lerks because of it's range, and the shotgun still perferable for it's burst damage (there's always the risk with the flamethrower that the fade or skulk will kill you before you kill them). Although it would still have some impact when you're dealing with hit and run fades and lerks, if you can get enough damage on them before they get away, I still think that's necessary for marines to have because they lack the outright heavy firepower of the HMG to cut down fades and lerks more quickly during those hit and run attacks.
This stacking effect would also work against buildings, which would make the flamethrower a quicker and more efficient way of clearing out infestation. This would further justify the high cost of the weapon.
The LMG would still have the advantage of range, and being free (which is a huge bonus you do have to factor in). The shotgun of burst damage. The grenade launcher has it's obvious benefits or high burst damage combined with AoE, but becomes unweidly in close quarters and against smaller fast moving targets.
Aliens have the advantage of map control because one on one aliens are stronger, making it easier for them to roam around and control the map while marines have to focus on a few key areas. Plus the nature of the alien commander makes it a lot easier for them to expand over the map.
So marines can't expect to win by resources and attrition in most cases.
Marines win by properly applying overwhelming firepower at select areas. They launch attacks as a team with heavy weapons and armor backed up by supportive firepower in the form of arcs.
But marines are lacking the late game firepower to pull this off because they don't pose enough of a threat to groups of onos to both defend and attack at the same time in the late game. It's too easy for them to get hemmed in on full time defense when you combine alien's map control prowess with a team full of onos.
Although the game design philosophy you have of no weapon being outright more powerful makes sense in theory, in practice NS1 was always balanced around the idea that marines could radically uparmor and upgun themselves.
This will happen once we get the exosuit, however, marines would still be lacking a cheap firepower alternative to the exosuit. A normal marine equipped with an HMG may have been a resource risk in NS1 if he didn't have the added surivivability of a jetpack or heavy armor yet, but he still had the option when heavy firepower was a requirement.
Therefor:
I would like to propose that if you don't add the HMG, that you change the way the flamethrower works to fill the firepower gap. I've tried to use the flamethrower a lot, finding it fills no real niche and is lackluster all around. I'd like to change that as well as solving the marine firepower problem in a way that doesn't make it an outright better version of the LMG.
The flamethrower could be the weapon that onos fear by changing it, without really affecting it's performance against the other aliens which are small and fast moving.
There should be a lingering burn effect on the flamethrower, and the longer you keep the stream of flame on a target consecutively the stronger the burn effect gets and the longer it lasts. The burn effects of multiple flamethrowers also stacks.
Skulks, lerks, and fades would all be too fast moving for this stacking effect to have much impact. The LMG would still be perferable against skulks and perhaps lerks because of it's range, and the shotgun still perferable for it's burst damage (there's always the risk with the flamethrower that the fade or skulk will kill you before you kill them). Although it would still have some impact when you're dealing with hit and run fades and lerks, if you can get enough damage on them before they get away, I still think that's necessary for marines to have because they lack the outright heavy firepower of the HMG to cut down fades and lerks more quickly during those hit and run attacks.
This stacking effect would also work against buildings, which would make the flamethrower a quicker and more efficient way of clearing out infestation. This would further justify the high cost of the weapon.
The LMG would still have the advantage of range, and being free (which is a huge bonus you do have to factor in). The shotgun of burst damage. The grenade launcher has it's obvious benefits or high burst damage combined with AoE, but becomes unweidly in close quarters and against smaller fast moving targets.
Comments
One way to give it more without being overpowered would be to offload some of that to a lingering burn effect instead of outright more damage.
Though personally I feel that lifeforms are too tough at the early game, and very squishy at late. A team of at least 4 onos is still unstoppable, but lower lifeforms become almost useless while a lerk, a fade or even a skulk can be very difficult to kill when they first appear.
Exosuits are for lategame. Now I don't think exosuits are going to fix balance problems, but lategame vs onos is where they're clearly designed to fit. The problem is onos come out in the early-midgame typically at 8-12 minutes. Far earlier than evenly matched marine teams will have exosuit tech.
IIRC you buy the exosuit for 15(?) pres. He comes with the claw and you can purchase other weapons (minigun and/or railgun) for 30 pres each. So you can buy an exo + 1 weapon for just 45 pres. Or you can buy your entire setup for 70 pres. (these numbers are obviously not the balanced numbers, but I believe that's what is in the LUA currently)
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->kExoskeletonCost = 15
kExoskeletonTechResearchCost = 20
kExoskeletonLockdownTechResearchCost = 20
kExoskeletonUpgradeTechResearchCost = 20
kMinigunCost = 30
kDualMinigunCost = 25
kDualMinigunTechResearchCost = 20<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
The flamethrower needs a unique style of aiming. Right now you aim it just like a short-range rifle. The first person effects are misleading because it makes players think they have to lead their targets.
The base damage of 20 per second is too low. The firing rate of 2 per second is too low. The damage ramp up takes 8 seconds of firing time for full effect (assuming perfect accuracy), which is more than one clip. Once you finally reach full damage, the damage is too high (260 per second including burn damage)...
<!--quoteo(post=1943349:date=Jun 14 2012, 02:59 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 14 2012, 02:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943349"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The flamethrower's damage should not be increased. We absolutely do not need an AOE weapon that you barely have to aim being the highest damage against anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of all the things that are wrong with the flamethrower, the AOE capability is not one of them. The cone of fire is smaller than the first person effects suggest. I think this misconception exists because cysts catch on fire if their infestation is targeted. Players know that they weren't attacking the cyst, and assume that it caught on fire because of a large AoE. Also, you need line of sight to all of your targets.
With all the crippling, debuffing, and DoT capabilities it definitely does not need more damage. If anything I would say it could use a tiny bit more range so it's less melee-esque but that would be it. I don't understand how anyone could say it has no niche when a niche role is what completely defines it.
Just like you say, once the exosuit is in, i think the balance will change.
But having a HMG weapon for the jetpack would be good too.
On what basis do you make that statement.
The flamethrowers AoE cone is nothing to write home about, it's a small cone that doesn't negate the need to actually aim the weapon.
At best all it helps you do is maintain a constant stream of fire on the target ot build up the increased damage over time (because without that the damage is absolutely pitiful).
Furthermore, I don't think you stopped to consider that the damage is not outright increased, but relies on that build up afterburn effect to get it's real benefits - Meaning the only target this is likely to really impact consistantly is the onos, which is such a big target you can't miss with a steady stream even if it wasn't a small cone AoE.
Although there's ponential for it to result in increased damage to other targets during hit and run attacks, it would still require a lot of skill to apply a consistant stream of fire on a gliding lerk or blinking fade, regardless of the AoE.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exosuits are for lategame. Now I don't think exosuits are going to fix balance problems, but lategame vs onos is where they're clearly designed to fit. The problem is onos come out in the early-midgame typically at 8-12 minutes. Far earlier than evenly matched marine teams will have exosuit tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's why I said we needed a weapon to fill the gap before the exosuit.
What crippling and debuffing?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't understand how anyone could say it has no niche when a niche role is what completely defines it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't even have a niche role.
The grenade launcher is a superior anti structure weapon all around.
The only time you'll ever even consider a flamethrower is if whips are blocking the way, but even then the benefit of a flamethrower vs LMG fire is too marginal most of the time to justify the cost.
So nobody looks at a situation and says "This looks like a job for the flamethrower", and that's a problem if it's suppose to be a niche weapon.
I wouldn't mind it being a mainly anti structure weapon if it were just better at that role, and we had a fourth weapon to fill the role of upgunning marine firepower against onos.
One of the advantages of tweaking the flamethrower in the way I suggested, is that it forces the jetpacker to get close, so there's a lot more risk associated with it than the old HMG.
The jetpack/flamethrower combo can be effective against an onos but it requires a lot of skill and timing to not get hit or stomped.
I suppose it is somewhat lacking at the moment, but as late game becomes more balanced I think it's role will become more apparent. Stuff like the res cost could also be looked at.. but I think it is too early to call it useless as it's meant to be a late game support weapon and the late game is highly primitive and very unbalanced at the moment. If it does turn out to be the runt of the litter I'd rather see it just plain removed than brute-forced into being useful via more dmg.. it's an AoE weapon and I think the GL fills that role perfectly already and you definitely don't want another monster AoE mechanic in the game.
edit: also @ your OP, I think miniguns are going to destroy things in late game whenever they finally get put in. I don't think marines are lacking in firepower even now, their endgame upgrades/scaling are much better than aliens. Shotties are beastly now.
The flamethrowers AoE cone is nothing to write home about, it's a small cone that doesn't negate the need to actually aim the weapon.
At best all it helps you do is maintain a constant stream of fire on the target ot build up the increased damage over time (because without that the damage is absolutely pitiful).
Furthermore, I don't think you stopped to consider that the damage is not outright increased, but relies on that build up afterburn effect to get it's real benefits - Meaning the only target this is likely to really impact consistantly is the onos, which is such a big target you can't miss with a steady stream even if it wasn't a small cone AoE.
Although there's ponential for it to result in increased damage to other targets during hit and run attacks, it would still require a lot of skill to apply a consistant stream of fire on a gliding lerk or blinking fade, regardless of the AoE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I make that statement on the basis that I played when the flamethrower did significantly more damaged. You couldn't even approach a flamethrower as a skulk because you were guaranteed to burn to death, even if you tried to run away. The cone of the flamethrower is large enough so you just have to aim in the general direction of your target and you hit them. It's barely aiming.
The flamethrower is clearly supposed to be a support weapon, much like the lerk.
As I said:
Furthermore, I don't think you stopped to consider that the damage is not outright increased, but relies on that build up afterburn effect to get it's real benefits - Meaning the only target this is likely to really impact consistantly is the onos, which is such a big target you can't miss with a steady stream even if it wasn't a small cone AoE.
Although there's ponential for it to result in increased damage to other targets during hit and run attacks, it would still require a lot of skill to apply a consistant stream of fire on a gliding lerk or blinking fade, regardless of the AoE.
When there is "real " friendly fire marines have to be more cautious when using granade launchers or flamers. I think the flamer just has to be really effective against aliens becaue it is in it´s nature to burn stuff that is not made out of metal :D.
Also the friendly fire is where the exosuit could jump in: he could be invulnerable to flamer dmg or nearly to granades.
I also think marines lack late game firepower ( they really need HMG, Minigun or sth.!) It just feels stupid that you have to get close with shotgun or flamer because you got the feeling lmg doesnt cause real dmg to the onos... but on the other side fades need to get stronger again to counter jps. Atm it´s really just : onos, onos, onos.
I think there should be a greater focus on "natural-selection". When marines face sth. like an onos they try to be as fast as possible and of course as far away as possible to get those onoes down - > hmg with jp :) (maybe with a disadvantage to have less armor , for not being too heavy) and on the other side aliens or rather the "nature" would prefer those lifeforms who survive against jps, which could be fades. ( ye I know this is like in ns1 but it´s the only way it makes sense to me. There just has too be a little disadvantage for jps so we dont have what we having in ns1, where jps are better than ha most of the time.