Skulk jump can be abused yes (someone posted a video in crevice showing it recently) but if I remember correctly there was something in the progress page about it, so it might get fixed in the next patch.
There is also some problems with predictability, full air control. I also feel like just walking on complex geometry gives me +100% armor sometimes.
Beside that I think the skulk is more or less ok, against good marines you really need teamwork.
But I agree with eh?, if we really want to test it seriously join a server with the best players, and test marine vs skulk for one hour, and see how it goes.
<!--quoteo(post=1939640:date=May 29 2012, 11:48 AM:name=WorthyRival)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WorthyRival @ May 29 2012, 11:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My personal opinion is that the numbers are pretty spot on at the moment. It's performance thats the real let down. The game needs to optimized a lot more. Only once the game plays smooth will any fine tweaking really matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My thoughts as well (although air control could definately use with some tweaking). The effect was very readily apparent when moving from 10 tick aus servers to the new 30 tick auspure servers.
<!--quoteo(post=1939594:date=May 29 2012, 08:09 AM:name=Industry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Industry @ May 29 2012, 08:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939594"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe someone else can answer this as I can't find it in the patch notes. Did they ever cap skulk walljump speed or are they still able to get up to ~30 in certain instances (looking at you, Crevice skulks)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As far as i can tell there is a 'softcap' of around 12 speed for simply walljumping without making use of high vertical spaces like in crevice. The effort required to get higher than 12 seems disproportionally larger than 7 to 12 and you would probably need to be using leap in conjunction with wall jump chaining. I'm not a perfect wall jumper by any standard though so i could be wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1939687:date=May 29 2012, 03:25 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ May 29 2012, 03:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulk jump can be abused yes (someone posted a video in crevice showing it recently) but if I remember correctly there was something in the progress page about it, so it might get fixed in the next patch.
There is also some problems with predictability, full air control. I also feel like just walking on complex geometry gives me +100% armor sometimes.
Beside that I think the skulk is more or less ok, against good marines you really need teamwork.
But I agree with eh?, if we really want to test it seriously join a server with the best players, and test marine vs skulk for one hour, and see how it goes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Couldn't disagree more with your last statement. Testing it out for an hour against the "best" players... (Remember that whole subjective aspect to a players skill?) is hardly enough to accumulate an accurate conclusion on whether or not skulk jump is OP. The skulk jumping isn't OP anyway and get over it (Not talking directly to you). I just think that SOMETHING needs to be done to make the skulks a bit more vulnerable but still leaving them deadly.
The only real way to balance something is to play the hell out of it in every different setting possible... not just competitive. Competitive players usually have an accompanying ego that hinders their creative outlook on things and their style of play. In the unpredictable settings of a pub and also in competitive there will be a lot more varied play to be able to test all situations. That's why the developers are so kind to release us these builds on a weekly basis and not just give the builds to an elite few people. Of course there are internal testers and etc, but that is different all together... right UWE? ;)
Leap is what makes skulks so deadly. Wall jumping is alright, but has a decent ramp up time and actually takes some skill and foresight. With leap you simply press your right mouse button and you're going faster than the best wall jumpers without leap. And if you're good at walljumping, use leap, then wall jump, then leap again, you go insanely fast.
Leap is what makes skulks so deadly. Wall jumping is alright, but has a decent ramp up time and actually takes some skill and foresight. With leap you simply press your right mouse button and you're going faster than the best wall jumpers without leap. And if you're good at walljumping, use leap, then wall jump, then leap again, you go insanely fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have I played against a cheater or is it really so, that nobody has played against one decent wall jumper? Leap is a joke against skilled wall jumping. He literally teleported around so freakin fast and unpredictable was he. All without leap!
<!--quoteo(post=1939615:date=May 28 2012, 07:30 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 28 2012, 07:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love people like this. They open their mouths and judge somebody they have never even seen play. The top shots in the entire game are going to agree with me that skulks are too hard to hit (Whether it be due to netcode, fps, or their insane speed). Your post offers nothing to this community or forum by calling other people bad that you don't even know. So, if you have something constructive to say to counter my opinion then feel free.
Actually a few of the top players in NS already posted on this thread with good quality feedback on this topic. Telling the best players that they should "get better aim and practice more" might be a really stupid thing to say... considering I probably have hundreds of more hours than you and practice this game religiously everyday.
I tried really hard there not to use vulgar language or insult you... so be happy about that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow relax.. I wasn't even being agressive, and I never called you bad. I'm sorry if you was offended by anything I said. I only spoke from my PoV, which is that I think the Skulk-Marine combat really is where it should be, and an encounter often turns out in either one's favor because of skill. In my experience a good marine can kill several "average" skulks, while a good skulk can kill several "average" marines. And when equally skilled it's a close call. <b>my PoV</b>. And of course people can always get better at aiming, no matter how good you are to begin with, just as you can always become a more skilled evasive skulk, that should speak for itself. A "best player" that doesn't practice and tries to get better won't be among "the best" for very long.. And who's judging now? "considering I probably have hundreds of more hours than you and practice this game religiously everyday." I've been playing NS since 2003 and NS2 since the start of beta, both a considerable amount of time, so I'm very far from being inexperienced or bad.. and often I find myself against a superior opponent, be it a skulk or a marine, which prompts me to practice more and get even better at aiming(marine) and skulking.
"So, if you have something constructive to say to counter my opinion then feel free. " I did, but you chose to ignore it. <!--quoteo(post=1939615:date=May 28 2012, 07:30 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 28 2012, 07:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And to clarify, the reason I want less health on the skulk is because the hitreg IS still pretty abysmal. It wouldn't have to be permanent... just until people are actually able to hit skulks when their client is saying they are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's better if UWE dedicate time on fixing the actual issue (hitreg), than applying band-aid fixes.. Especially as this isn't really a problem to begin with (imo). <!--quoteo(post=1939615:date=May 28 2012, 07:30 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 28 2012, 07:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Type ".adhd's frag video" in youtube if you are curious to how bad my aim is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I watched it yesterday, and I actually think that video proves my point (even though there weren't that much marine footage compared to alien footage). You were pretty good, usually better than your opponents (the ones you showed in the video at least), and as a skulk you outmanouvered several mariens, while as a marine you killed several skulks (and lerks).. It's all about the skill of each individual in a marine-skulk encounter, relative better skill gives higher chance of winning the encounter. <!--quoteo(post=1939615:date=May 28 2012, 07:30 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 28 2012, 07:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys all brought up good points that I think are all valid. Rant good points, orange I also liked the ambush skulk but I think he's still there... just hard to want to ambush things when you can fly around the map at 100 mph.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I too like the ambush skulk, but skulks should have an option of assulting marines aswell if skilled enough (relative to the marine opponent's skill), not just hiding in the shadows. <!--quoteo(post=1939615:date=May 28 2012, 07:30 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 28 2012, 07:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And to anyone who thinks the wallhopping isn't op... try jumping around like a madman... jump all around the rines but don't attack them until they have exhausted their ammunition on you. Then go bite them and win. I do that all the time now instead of going for the direct kill. When i wallhop I litterally am impossible to hit... unless I go straight for the kill and make myself an easy target. I am sure people will try this and will end up getting rofl stomped. Wall jumping is NOT easy and takes hard dedicated practice to due well. If everyone can get good at it (Which they will) it's going to become a big issue for marine vs skulk combat early game.
This walljumping is a new thing and once people learn it it's going to be abused hardcore. Having better aim on marines might help a little but lets be realistic here...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well that's the "Marine aim vs Skulk movement" balance for you, which I feel is right where it should be. A good marine will slaughter a "bad" evasive skulk, and a good evasive skulk will slaughter a "bad" marine. It's all intended..
<!--quoteo(post=1939712:date=May 29 2012, 01:21 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ May 29 2012, 01:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have I played against a cheater or is it really so, that nobody has played against one decent wall jumper? Leap is a joke against skilled wall jumping. He literally teleported around so freakin fast and unpredictable was he. All without leap!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, it's not even that hard to do ;).
I use leap just for acceleration (leap against a wall).
<!--quoteo(post=1939714:date=May 29 2012, 06:35 AM:name=Smasher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smasher @ May 29 2012, 06:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939714"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I watched it yesterday, and I actually think that video proves my point (even though there weren't that much marine footage compared to alien footage). You were pretty good, usually better than your opponents (the ones you showed in the video at least), and as a skulk you outmanouvered several mariens, while as a marine you killed several skulks (and lerks).. It's all about the skill of each individual in a marine-skulk encounter, relative better skill gives higher chance of winning the encounter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just figured out how to record demos 2 days ago... because it didn't clearly say anywhere how to do it. So I just joined a random couple pubs and recorded that stuff... not really an accurate way to judge my skill to be honest. I will have a much better video soon after I record some good matches and scrims... thought I am not sure yet if recording a demo effects performance so I might wait.
<!--quoteo(post=1939720:date=May 29 2012, 08:20 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 29 2012, 08:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just figured out how to record demos 2 days ago... because it didn't clearly say anywhere how to do it. So I just joined a random couple pubs and recorded that stuff... not really an accurate way to judge my skill to be honest. I will have a much better video soon after I record some good matches and scrims... thought I am not sure yet if recording a demo effects performance so I might wait.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well you don't have to prove anything to anyone, one's skill should only be of interest to oneself, that's how I see it anyway :) Though I always enjoy watching good footage of someone who plays greatly, it is as much inspiration as it is enjoyment:)
Leap is what makes skulks so deadly. Wall jumping is alright, but has a decent ramp up time and actually takes some skill and foresight. With leap you simply press your right mouse button and you're going faster than the best wall jumpers without leap. And if you're good at walljumping, use leap, then wall jump, then leap again, you go insanely fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true man. Watch internets video of his skulk jumping out in crevice and tell me if you still believe that its not better than leap in the right hands... here the video. I don't like leap except for the fact that it saves you time on building the intial few wall hops for velocity. Keep in mind this video is back when the skulkjumping was actually harder than it is now. I think of leap as more of a bandaid for new players to wallhop fast (not devs intention of course). It's fundamentally changed the gameplay.
This video don't prove anything. Internets has practiced that like mad. And not many can pull it off like he can. Id like to see it in combat like that. Yes i feel the top speed is a lil much, but you don't see alot of warp speed skulks.
<!--quoteo(post=1939724:date=May 29 2012, 07:35 AM:name=JuCCi-PuCCi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi-PuCCi @ May 29 2012, 07:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This video don't prove anything. Internets has practiced that like mad. And not many can pull it off like he can. Id like to see it in combat like that. Yes i feel the top speed is a lil much, but you don't see alot of warp speed skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You seriously underestimate the abilities and potential of players then Jucci. Not everyone is a dynamo in 5 mins... some players have more natural ability but lack the dedication. When this game is more popular and comes out officially a boatload of people are going to be as good and better than internets at wallhopping (Unless he starts playing NS2 as much as he used to). Did I mention it's easier in 208? A lot easier...
And for the record... he didn't "practice that like mad". He is just not bad... after he showed us how to do it it took very little time to do it... maybe not quite as consistently but that comes with time. It's not insanely hard to do those crevice jumps if you just practice solid for about 30 mins (With prior practice wallhopping)... which nobody will probably ever do.
But I guess no point in trying to prove a point here since it's ungodly hard and can only be done by one person.
It seems like people think that I want skulk jump nerfed... that couldn't be farther from the truth. I am simply saying I love skulk jumping and want to keep it remaining fun to use but also fun to combat. Right now its not so fun to combat...
All I am saying is you are going to see a lot of "new" players use this tactic and totally dominate extremely skilled and hardened vets. This really shouldn't be the case in a skill-based FPS game. Go ahead and disagree with me but I am confident we are going to see how this plays out here very soon....
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
The current skulk power boils down to several factors working together:
1. Poor client/server performance makes it harder to aim.
2. Poor client/server performance affects reg.
3. Near 100% "air control" (meaning you can turn on a dime without losing any speed) makes skulk movement extremely erratic and unpredictable. I assume they tried to copy goldsrc (NS1 engine) movement, but failed in the execution, as goldsrc movement requires you to move in predictable arcs to maintain speed. Hopefully this will we addressed at some point.
4. Walljumping is too powerful and too easy to use. In a way it is be the worst nightmare of any opponent of bunnyhop: It is almost as unintuitive, looks just as stupid and is ten times more powerful, than bunnyhopping. The result of all this is that the only way to play skulk effectively is to abuse walljumping -- unlike in NS1, where being an effective skulk without bunnyhopping was possible even at the top level of play. Walljumping also, unlike bunnyhopping, de-emphasises ambush play by skulks.
5. "Zerg rush" skulk gameplay. As the most effective way to play skulk currently is to rush marines head-on while performing evasive movement (either by spaz-jumping around on the floor or, preferably, by abusing walljumping), almost everybody plays the skulk in that way. This is caused by, and emphasises, all the factors listed in 1-4 above.
There may be other factors as well, this is just off the top of my head.
<!--quoteo(post=1939723:date=May 29 2012, 08:30 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 29 2012, 08:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939723"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not true man. Watch internets video of his skulk jumping out in crevice and tell me if you still believe that its not better than leap in the right hands... here the video. I don't like leap except for the fact that it saves you time on building the intial few wall hops for velocity. Keep in mind this video is back when the skulkjumping was actually harder than it is now. I think of leap as more of a bandaid for new players to wallhop fast (not devs intention of course). It's fundamentally changed the gameplay.
While that is a sweet display of skulkmanship, you'll notice two things about that video.
a) No marines // combat b) wide open crevice
That trick is completely useless in a real game. I'd love to see videos of skulks moving this fast without leap in any kind of realistic game scenario. Bouncing around and empty crevice is useless in an actual game. Sort of like climbing mines into vents.
Also, you could "fix" this by simply capping max skulk speed.
Fana makes some good points, which I mostly agree with (aside from bunny hopping, which I find to be magnitudes worse of an option than wall jumping). Notably, the air control, which is something I've been complaining about since it was put in way back in 197(?) +/- a few patches. When skulks maintain 100% of their forward momentum despite turning 360 degrees in the air while holding W, it gives skulks silly unpredictability.
Ambush skulks are still viable, they're just less versatile than zerg rush skulks because you're forced to be positioned before your opponent enters the area. In some areas, ambush skulks are better than zerg skulks (such as camping outside a base, or a hallway before a RT), but that is limited and requires a lot of effort to execute effectively.
<!--quoteo(post=1939740:date=May 29 2012, 04:44 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ May 29 2012, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While that is a sweet display of skulkmanship, you'll notice two things about that video.
a) No marines // combat b) wide open crevice
That trick is completely useless in a real game. I'd love to see videos of skulks moving this fast without leap in any kind of realistic game scenario. Bouncing around and empty crevice is useless in an actual game. Sort of like climbing mines into vents.
Also, you could "fix" this by simply capping max skulk speed.
Fana makes some good points, which I mostly agree with (aside from bunny hopping, which I find to be magnitudes worse of an option than wall jumping). Notably, the air control, which is something I've been complaining about since it was put in way back in 197(?) +/- a few patches. When skulks maintain 100% of their forward momentum despite turning 360 degrees in the air while holding W, it gives skulks silly unpredictability.
Ambush skulks are still viable, they're just less versatile than zerg rush skulks because you're forced to be positioned before your opponent enters the area. In some areas, ambush skulks are better than zerg skulks (such as camping outside a base, or a hallway before a RT), but that is limited and requires a lot of effort to execute effectively.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again: I HAVE seen it in combat. I was the marine and tried several times to beat the skulk. It is absolutely overpowered because you can't hit something, that teleports around you. The video does not show a "trick" it shows the insane speed you can get by wall jumping. Don't you see how little time he needs to get from one wall in crevice to the other? Think about how to fight this speed as marine. It has nothing to do with crevice. It just has open enough space to show how fast you can get. I have played against a skulk, that only needed one wall. He jumped so fast on that one wall again and again (even in front of me) that i couldn't hit em. And after 3 or 4 jumps, he engaged me and that was like he teleported. I really wish you, that you met this player or one that is equally skilled in wall jumping, so that you can see, that no amount of hit-reg optimization will make this balanced.
But as you said, they need to lower the max speed cap and the insane unpredictable air control.
<!--quoteo(post=1939743:date=May 29 2012, 08:59 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ May 29 2012, 08:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939743"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again: I HAVE seen it in combat. I was the marine and tried several times to beat the skulk. It is absolutely overpowered because you can't hit something, that teleports around you. The video does not show a "trick" it shows the insane speed you can get by wall jumping. Don't you see how little time he needs to get from one wall in crevice to the other? Think about how to fight this speed as marine. It has nothing to do with crevice. It just has open enough space to show how fast you can get. I have played against a skulk, that only needed one wall. He jumped so fast on that one wall again and again (even in front of me) that i couldn't hit em. And after 3 or 4 jumps, he engaged me and that was like he teleported. I really wish you, that you met this player or one that is equally skilled in wall jumping, so that you can see, that no amount of hit-reg optimization will make this balanced.
But as you said, they need to lower the max speed cap and the insane unpredictable air control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Jumping from one-wall isn't skilled; I've done it myself countless times to reach marines at the end of a hallway. It's really weird at the moment though; I've had times where I'm just jumping off a wall or slanted floor and not getting a hefty boost but flying in speed when I hit a flat-floor and jump again.
<!--quoteo(post=1939747:date=May 30 2012, 01:12 AM:name=Banzai¥)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Banzai¥ @ May 30 2012, 01:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jumping from one-wall isn't skilled; I've done it myself countless times to reach marines at the end of a hallway. It's really weird at the moment though; I've had times where I'm just jumping off a wall or slanted floor and not getting a hefty boost but flying in speed when I hit a flat-floor and jump again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea there is something weird going on where you accelerate <b>after</b> the jump to whatever speed so you can make the weirdest 180 jump strafing maneuvers without losing speed even though you know you should otherwise have no momentum left.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1939740:date=May 29 2012, 03:44 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ May 29 2012, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ambush skulks are still viable, they're just less versatile than zerg rush skulks because you're forced to be positioned before your opponent enters the area. In some areas, ambush skulks are better than zerg skulks (such as camping outside a base, or a hallway before a RT), but that is limited and requires a lot of effort to execute effectively.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, not really. As I said in my original post, walljumping creates a powerful incentive to rush instead of ambushing, but that's only half of the story.
The other half can be best explained by a comparison with NS1: Skulks in NS2 are bigger and slower (when not walljumping) compared to the NS1 skulk, but their health is identical, meaning it is more difficult to compete against marines without the walljump speed boost. Furthermore, the current NS2 maps are not designed to accomodate amubushing -- the rooms, corridors and door openings are bigger, wider and more open, compared to NS1 maps. Even worse, marines spawn faster and move around the smaller maps at ridiculous speeds due to sprint, meaning aliens most of the time simply don't have time to set up ambushes before the marines arrive (this also creates very hectic rush-y gameplay which I personally don't find enjoyable, but that's a digression).
Currently, NS2 just isn't conducive to "classic" skulk play, which is a shame because that was the best part of NS1 gameplay.
If skulks couldn't maneuver themselves wherever they wanted to go without losing momentum, then this wouldn't be a problem. You would need long, openish walls to reach the 15+ speeds that typically take 5+ wall jumps to reach.
The relatively fast marine movement speed definitely makes it harder for skulks to ambush, but there are still quite a few good spots. Zerg rush vs ambush, the goals of the tactics are the same: to close the distance to melee by taking as little fire as possible. A well executed ambush takes more prep time and foresight, but can accomplish the goal. I definitely miss the older, slower skulks of NS2 a bit, but I don't regret wall jumping. I think the seemingly uncapped benefit of wall jumping (getting up to 15+ speeds off even 5 jumps) is compounded by the ease with which skulks can severely redirect their momentum and continue the jump chain. It doesn't take much planning to wall jump, you simply go forward and bounce to a wall every other bounce.
If you couldn't constantly readjust as drastically as 180+ degrees, but instead had to plan your jumps out then wall jumping would be a lot more difficult. And more difficult effectively means reduced in power.
I definitely think ns2 skulks need some improvements, going to start with some ns1 analysis:
In ns1 there were 3 ways to get close to a good marine.
1. Ambush - Lure him into vulnerable position allowing you to get the jump on him. 2. Walljump - This is not the same walljump in ns2, you basically used movements that were hard to predict to get close. This was mainly used as a decoy tactic because it was hard to get close to well positioned marines this way. 3. Bunnyhop - This basically gave skulk extra speed in exchange for predictable movement. Also when you lost your bhop speed in combat you would not be able to get it back. Even with all that speed the skulk got he usually needed some kind of support to be able to take down a marine. A good marine was usually able to kill a bunnyhopping skulk with ease since the movement was predictable.
Now lets talk about ns2 1. Because the skulk is slower and has bigger hitbox he needs a stronger version of walljump to function. The alien team is based around mobility and its bit strange that marines can sprint just as fast as skulk movement.
2. Walljump combines the effectiveness of nr 2 and 3 above. You have unpredictable movement and you gain extra speed from it. Also if you do a mistake in combat you can get your speed back pretty quick by jumping off a wall up to ceiling and back down.
3. Ambushing is harder in ns2 because of how big and slow skulks are, for that reason its much better to get your speed up and force the marines to waste their ammo with unpredictable movement. Ambush is still very viable but not as good. Killing a good walljumping skulk will always leave you with no ammo left.
So when I look at the skulk I think there are 2 core issues, its movement speed and walljump. There might also be a issue with marine mobility(because of sprint).
Walljump can work but it needs some improvements. It would at least need 3-4 jumps to gain full speed and skulks should not gain speed by jumping into the ceiling. *********************** This does not have to be skillbased movement. Even though I would welcome such a thing into the game it is simply not needed. For example if we wanted to go bhop route again we could allow players to get the speed by simply jumping a lot with less air control. It might not look as well but it would work similar. The only thing to note here is this would allow new players to get better with skulk faster than marine tune their aim because skulks would be easier to use. However its already like that.
Would someone mind explaining the mechanics of the current 208 jump? I hold W and jump between walls and floor, but it seems like I only get the speed boost + roar confirmation occasionally. Are there some other nuances?
Jumping in general is quite susceptible to lag, because it is a discrete event that causes a big change in velocity. If your client is forced to extrapolate enemy players(packet loss, poor server performance, whatever) it will make a wildly wrong guess(player continues what he is currently doing without jumping) because it doesn't know about the jump.
When the client is informed about the jump there is a very large error that needs to be reconsiled. The error is so large that exponential smoothing and other mechanisms that can smooth over small prediction errors will probably just look funkier than moving the player to the new position with a noticable "pop".
Bunnyhopping is only slightly better than walljumping from this perspective, because there are not quite so many jumps and the air-movement is smooth and nicely predictable. But bunnyhopping can be further improved with pogo-sticking like quakeworld. Pogo-sticking would allow the server to pass a long a hint to clients that a player is intending to jump when he lands(because he is holding space). Though the player may occasionally change his mind and let space up before landing, most of the time the client would be informed in advance that a jump will occur when the player lands, and most of the time a jump actually will happen. This should allow a decent success rate for predicting jumps when extrapolation proves necessary.
<!--quoteo(post=1939780:date=May 29 2012, 11:46 AM:name=BVKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BVKnight @ May 29 2012, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939780"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Would someone mind explaining the mechanics of the current 208 jump? I hold W and jump between walls and floor, but it seems like I only get the speed boost + roar confirmation occasionally. Are there some other nuances?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you have to get the timing of the jump right(don't jump straight away when you land?). I'm not quite up to date on how it works in the current build.
<!--quoteo(post=1939780:date=May 29 2012, 12:46 PM:name=BVKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BVKnight @ May 29 2012, 12:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939780"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Would someone mind explaining the mechanics of the current 208 jump? I hold W and jump between walls and floor, but it seems like I only get the speed boost + roar confirmation occasionally. Are there some other nuances?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To the best of my knowlege:
*If you press jump while in the air, you lose your speed bonus *After you land on a wall or floor, how quickly you jump determines how much speed you gain(wall) or speed you lose (floor).
So you always want to jump immediately after landing and the quicker you do so nets you the biggest speed increase.
<!--quoteo(post=1939793:date=May 29 2012, 05:21 PM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ May 29 2012, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939793"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pogo-sticking would allow the server to pass a long a hint to clients that a player is intending to jump when he lands(because he is holding space). Though the player may occasionally change his mind and let space up before landing, most of the time the primed jump would occur and the client would predict it correctly if extrapolation proves necessary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a pretty interesting thingy. Any idea if Quake or Painkiller actually does this or are they just relying on razorsharp netcode in general?
<!--quoteo(post=1939799:date=May 29 2012, 12:31 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ May 29 2012, 12:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's a pretty interesting thingy. Any idea if Quake or Painkiller actually does this or are they just relying on razorsharp netcode in general?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No clue. But it seems like a pretty obvious thing to do, so it wouldn't surprise me.
You could do pogo-sticking for wall-jumping to, but only if you don't care about jump-timing(which seems to be the element of skill involved in wall jumping, unlike bunnyhoping, where the interesting skill is planing a path that gives the desired turning radius and hits all the jumps ontop of rails etc.).
I would say the bigger issue with prediction comes from strafing left/right quickly in older games like goldsrc, and not as much from jumping. Maybe it has an effect to some degree in NS2, but i would say thats more just general low performance currently combined with the decently large speed boost than can come from wallhop in basically any direction from the wall.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
I dont like the current walljump-mechanic. As Fana said, it removes the ambush componente for example and its broken in its current state like the video from internets show. I dont think a skulk should jump from 1 side in crevice to another. This is no skill, this is a "bug".
So, for what have we walljump right now? Its for getting more speed. With 209 you can buy speed as an upgrade called celerity. And believe me this is really fast.
You choose upgrades for the gamestyle you like: - Silent and Cloak for better ambush - Celerety and Carapace for better frontal attacks
Getting more speed without upgrades didnt fit with the intention of the upgrades. Why should i "buy" celerity if i can be faster without it?
My biggest problem with the wall jumping right now is how buggy it is. On numerous occasions I have jumped off a wall and gone from 6-7 speed to as much as 20 or 30. Insane speed boosts which are obviously not intended. Even though it isn't intended, I have seen many people abuse this. I have seen others who just fly around constantly at head height at a speed of 10 or 11, never slowing down and making hardly any noise.
Furthermore it seems completely random. I have gotten the healthy "rarrgh" noise when jumping off a wall, only to be masively slowed down. Other times It makes no noise at all and I get a speed boost.
<!--quoteo(post=1939806:date=May 29 2012, 01:07 PM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ May 29 2012, 01:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939806"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont like the current walljump-mechanic. As Fana said, it removes the ambush componente for example and its broken in its current state like the video from internets show. I dont think a skulk should jump from 1 side in crevice to another. This is no skill, this is a "bug".
So, for what have we walljump right now? Its for getting more speed. With 209 you can buy speed as an upgrade called celerity. And believe me this is really fast.
You choose upgrades for the gamestyle you like: - Silent and Cloak for better ambush - Celerety and Carapace for better frontal attacks
Getting more speed without upgrades didnt fit with the intention of the upgrades. Why should i "buy" celerity if i can be faster without it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this is true then I will go back to never playing alien side again... and on top of that will probably take a long break from this game until release comes and all the big mistakes and bad design elements will come full circle.
This may sound harsh but I honestly can't keep playing a game where I get set on how the gameplay is and I start to like it and really enjoy the skillbased aspects of things BEFORE people complain and the developers nerf it.
Right now the only actual fun thing to do on aliens is play as skulk for walljumping and microing drifters with enzyme. I assume both of these aspects are going to be heavily nerfed in the coming builds due to people learning how to use them and getting GOOD with them. We don't want that now do we? Having insanely skilled players in a game makes it unfun for everyone right? Excuse my sarcasm...
What you're telling me is now if I want to have a fast skulk I have to buy celerity as mandatory? When we all know crag will still be the default hive. This is stupid. Nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerd. Anything fun.... nerf it. What you basically summed up in your last thought is that celerity is redundant... and no longer needed in the game due to already having a BETTER skillbased way to gain speed. I thought celerity was going to be very limited like onos charge. If it becomes a default for speed it's going to be an insanely bad upgrade.
It seems that most of the times when people cry OP about something is because they don't like it due to them getting owned by it (Usually by a skilled player). I know this is a beta but I find it incredible that the developers are constantly nerfing things in their game and taking the general publics feedback as sound and accurate...
Those who disagree with me simply have a gamers ego and can't accept that other people are better than them at something. Sometimes people are so much better than you at something you can't even begin to comprehend HOW they are so good... so what do you do? You blame it on being OP... or when this game becomes official we are going to hear people whine about "hacks". See the problem is even the best shooters and players are blinded by their own skill and ego. They can't see the truth in things because they believe "Nobody could be better or more knowledgeable than me!!"
They better not nerf the speed of the skulk... that's the one thing this game had going for it if the devs want to pull in the fast paced FPS shooter kids. I would never play quakelive ever if you couldn't bunnyhop for speed. If I needed to upgrade my speed to do something that should be skill based then you get the COD effect on game development... what's this?
Well players aren't skilled enough so you need to give them stupid "perks" to make newbies feel better about themselves. Don't do that to this game please. Make things easy enough for people to pick up but hard enough so that it takes dedication to master. Stop skill capping everything in this game in hopes of balancing it for the masses. It's really not possible... find the happy balance that makes the game playable in pubs but actually worthwhile to play competitive (Which it isn't at the moment).
Let the good players shine, and don't be afraid that this game has a high learning curve (Due to everything good about it)... that's the whole damn reason I even bought it... and I assume the same for about 90% of the people who pre-ordered. So why the apparent trend to nerf and carebear this game is beyond me.... it must be the vocal minority who has the power in this community. Whoever worships the most get's the most praise and credibility... at least it seems that way. If you slipped up and had a nasty comment or hard critique you are pretty much squelched here. Happened to me plenty of times even though I'd like to think I've contributed a lot to this community. Will I ever get awarded for anything? Probably not... and I doubt any feedback I've ever given on this forum has ever made it into the game.
But what do I know... I'm just a complete souless jerk, with no skill, that barely plays this game... oh yeah and I've only sold 4 copies of this game to friends... and I continue to promote the hell out of it everyday to every gamer I know. I love this game... please don't ruin it.
Comments
There is also some problems with predictability, full air control. I also feel like just walking on complex geometry gives me +100% armor sometimes.
Beside that I think the skulk is more or less ok, against good marines you really need teamwork.
But I agree with eh?, if we really want to test it seriously join a server with the best players, and test marine vs skulk for one hour, and see how it goes.
The game needs to optimized a lot more. Only once the game plays smooth will any fine tweaking really matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My thoughts as well (although air control could definately use with some tweaking). The effect was very readily apparent when moving from 10 tick aus servers to the new 30 tick auspure servers.
<!--quoteo(post=1939594:date=May 29 2012, 08:09 AM:name=Industry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Industry @ May 29 2012, 08:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939594"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe someone else can answer this as I can't find it in the patch notes. Did they ever cap skulk walljump speed or are they still able to get up to ~30 in certain instances (looking at you, Crevice skulks)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As far as i can tell there is a 'softcap' of around 12 speed for simply walljumping without making use of high vertical spaces like in crevice. The effort required to get higher than 12 seems disproportionally larger than 7 to 12 and you would probably need to be using leap in conjunction with wall jump chaining. I'm not a perfect wall jumper by any standard though so i could be wrong.
There is also some problems with predictability, full air control. I also feel like just walking on complex geometry gives me +100% armor sometimes.
Beside that I think the skulk is more or less ok, against good marines you really need teamwork.
But I agree with eh?, if we really want to test it seriously join a server with the best players, and test marine vs skulk for one hour, and see how it goes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Couldn't disagree more with your last statement. Testing it out for an hour against the "best" players... (Remember that whole subjective aspect to a players skill?) is hardly enough to accumulate an accurate conclusion on whether or not skulk jump is OP. The skulk jumping isn't OP anyway and get over it (Not talking directly to you). I just think that SOMETHING needs to be done to make the skulks a bit more vulnerable but still leaving them deadly.
The only real way to balance something is to play the hell out of it in every different setting possible... not just competitive. Competitive players usually have an accompanying ego that hinders their creative outlook on things and their style of play. In the unpredictable settings of a pub and also in competitive there will be a lot more varied play to be able to test all situations. That's why the developers are so kind to release us these builds on a weekly basis and not just give the builds to an elite few people. Of course there are internal testers and etc, but that is different all together... right UWE? ;)
Leap is what makes skulks so deadly. Wall jumping is alright, but has a decent ramp up time and actually takes some skill and foresight. With leap you simply press your right mouse button and you're going faster than the best wall jumpers without leap. And if you're good at walljumping, use leap, then wall jump, then leap again, you go insanely fast.
Leap is what makes skulks so deadly. Wall jumping is alright, but has a decent ramp up time and actually takes some skill and foresight. With leap you simply press your right mouse button and you're going faster than the best wall jumpers without leap. And if you're good at walljumping, use leap, then wall jump, then leap again, you go insanely fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have I played against a cheater or is it really so, that nobody has played against one decent wall jumper? Leap is a joke against skilled wall jumping. He literally teleported around so freakin fast and unpredictable was he. All without leap!
Actually a few of the top players in NS already posted on this thread with good quality feedback on this topic. Telling the best players that they should "get better aim and practice more" might be a really stupid thing to say... considering I probably have hundreds of more hours than you and practice this game religiously everyday.
I tried really hard there not to use vulgar language or insult you... so be happy about that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow relax.. I wasn't even being agressive, and I never called you bad. I'm sorry if you was offended by anything I said. I only spoke from my PoV, which is that I think the Skulk-Marine combat really is where it should be, and an encounter often turns out in either one's favor because of skill.
In my experience a good marine can kill several "average" skulks, while a good skulk can kill several "average" marines. And when equally skilled it's a close call. <b>my PoV</b>.
And of course people can always get better at aiming, no matter how good you are to begin with, just as you can always become a more skilled evasive skulk, that should speak for itself. A "best player" that doesn't practice and tries to get better won't be among "the best" for very long..
And who's judging now? "considering I probably have hundreds of more hours than you and practice this game religiously everyday." I've been playing NS since 2003 and NS2 since the start of beta, both a considerable amount of time, so I'm very far from being inexperienced or bad.. and often I find myself against a superior opponent, be it a skulk or a marine, which prompts me to practice more and get even better at aiming(marine) and skulking.
"So, if you have something constructive to say to counter my opinion then feel free. " I did, but you chose to ignore it.
<!--quoteo(post=1939615:date=May 28 2012, 07:30 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 28 2012, 07:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And to clarify, the reason I want less health on the skulk is because the hitreg IS still pretty abysmal. It wouldn't have to be permanent... just until people are actually able to hit skulks when their client is saying they are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's better if UWE dedicate time on fixing the actual issue (hitreg), than applying band-aid fixes.. Especially as this isn't really a problem to begin with (imo).
<!--quoteo(post=1939615:date=May 28 2012, 07:30 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 28 2012, 07:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Type ".adhd's frag video" in youtube if you are curious to how bad my aim is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I watched it yesterday, and I actually think that video proves my point (even though there weren't that much marine footage compared to alien footage). You were pretty good, usually better than your opponents (the ones you showed in the video at least), and as a skulk you outmanouvered several mariens, while as a marine you killed several skulks (and lerks).. It's all about the skill of each individual in a marine-skulk encounter, relative better skill gives higher chance of winning the encounter.
<!--quoteo(post=1939615:date=May 28 2012, 07:30 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 28 2012, 07:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys all brought up good points that I think are all valid. Rant good points, orange I also liked the ambush skulk but I think he's still there... just hard to want to ambush things when you can fly around the map at 100 mph.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I too like the ambush skulk, but skulks should have an option of assulting marines aswell if skilled enough (relative to the marine opponent's skill), not just hiding in the shadows.
<!--quoteo(post=1939615:date=May 28 2012, 07:30 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 28 2012, 07:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And to anyone who thinks the wallhopping isn't op... try jumping around like a madman... jump all around the rines but don't attack them until they have exhausted their ammunition on you. Then go bite them and win. I do that all the time now instead of going for the direct kill. When i wallhop I litterally am impossible to hit... unless I go straight for the kill and make myself an easy target. I am sure people will try this and will end up getting rofl stomped. Wall jumping is NOT easy and takes hard dedicated practice to due well. If everyone can get good at it (Which they will) it's going to become a big issue for marine vs skulk combat early game.
This walljumping is a new thing and once people learn it it's going to be abused hardcore. Having better aim on marines might help a little but lets be realistic here...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well that's the
"Marine aim vs Skulk movement"
balance for you, which I feel is right where it should be.
A good marine will slaughter a "bad" evasive skulk, and a good evasive skulk will slaughter a "bad" marine. It's all intended..
Yes, it's not even that hard to do ;).
I use leap just for acceleration (leap against a wall).
I just figured out how to record demos 2 days ago... because it didn't clearly say anywhere how to do it. So I just joined a random couple pubs and recorded that stuff... not really an accurate way to judge my skill to be honest. I will have a much better video soon after I record some good matches and scrims... thought I am not sure yet if recording a demo effects performance so I might wait.
Well you don't have to prove anything to anyone, one's skill should only be of interest to oneself, that's how I see it anyway :)
Though I always enjoy watching good footage of someone who plays greatly, it is as much inspiration as it is enjoyment:)
Leap is what makes skulks so deadly. Wall jumping is alright, but has a decent ramp up time and actually takes some skill and foresight. With leap you simply press your right mouse button and you're going faster than the best wall jumpers without leap. And if you're good at walljumping, use leap, then wall jump, then leap again, you go insanely fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true man. Watch internets video of his skulk jumping out in crevice and tell me if you still believe that its not better than leap in the right hands... here the video. I don't like leap except for the fact that it saves you time on building the intial few wall hops for velocity. Keep in mind this video is back when the skulkjumping was actually harder than it is now. I think of leap as more of a bandaid for new players to wallhop fast (not devs intention of course). It's fundamentally changed the gameplay.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/chTcakWCK1g"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/chTcakWCK1g" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
You seriously underestimate the abilities and potential of players then Jucci. Not everyone is a dynamo in 5 mins... some players have more natural ability but lack the dedication. When this game is more popular and comes out officially a boatload of people are going to be as good and better than internets at wallhopping (Unless he starts playing NS2 as much as he used to). Did I mention it's easier in 208? A lot easier...
And for the record... he didn't "practice that like mad". He is just not bad... after he showed us how to do it it took very little time to do it... maybe not quite as consistently but that comes with time. It's not insanely hard to do those crevice jumps if you just practice solid for about 30 mins (With prior practice wallhopping)... which nobody will probably ever do.
But I guess no point in trying to prove a point here since it's ungodly hard and can only be done by one person.
It seems like people think that I want skulk jump nerfed... that couldn't be farther from the truth. I am simply saying I love skulk jumping and want to keep it remaining fun to use but also fun to combat. Right now its not so fun to combat...
All I am saying is you are going to see a lot of "new" players use this tactic and totally dominate extremely skilled and hardened vets. This really shouldn't be the case in a skill-based FPS game. Go ahead and disagree with me but I am confident we are going to see how this plays out here very soon....
1. Poor client/server performance makes it harder to aim.
2. Poor client/server performance affects reg.
3. Near 100% "air control" (meaning you can turn on a dime without losing any speed) makes skulk movement extremely erratic and unpredictable. I assume they tried to copy goldsrc (NS1 engine) movement, but failed in the execution, as goldsrc movement requires you to move in predictable arcs to maintain speed. Hopefully this will we addressed at some point.
4. Walljumping is too powerful and too easy to use. In a way it is be the worst nightmare of any opponent of bunnyhop: It is almost as unintuitive, looks just as stupid and is ten times more powerful, than bunnyhopping. The result of all this is that the only way to play skulk effectively is to abuse walljumping -- unlike in NS1, where being an effective skulk without bunnyhopping was possible even at the top level of play. Walljumping also, unlike bunnyhopping, de-emphasises ambush play by skulks.
5. "Zerg rush" skulk gameplay. As the most effective way to play skulk currently is to rush marines head-on while performing evasive movement (either by spaz-jumping around on the floor or, preferably, by abusing walljumping), almost everybody plays the skulk in that way. This is caused by, and emphasises, all the factors listed in 1-4 above.
There may be other factors as well, this is just off the top of my head.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/chTcakWCK1g"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/chTcakWCK1g" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While that is a sweet display of skulkmanship, you'll notice two things about that video.
a) No marines // combat
b) wide open crevice
That trick is completely useless in a real game. I'd love to see videos of skulks moving this fast without leap in any kind of realistic game scenario. Bouncing around and empty crevice is useless in an actual game. Sort of like climbing mines into vents.
Also, you could "fix" this by simply capping max skulk speed.
Fana makes some good points, which I mostly agree with (aside from bunny hopping, which I find to be magnitudes worse of an option than wall jumping). Notably, the air control, which is something I've been complaining about since it was put in way back in 197(?) +/- a few patches. When skulks maintain 100% of their forward momentum despite turning 360 degrees in the air while holding W, it gives skulks silly unpredictability.
Ambush skulks are still viable, they're just less versatile than zerg rush skulks because you're forced to be positioned before your opponent enters the area. In some areas, ambush skulks are better than zerg skulks (such as camping outside a base, or a hallway before a RT), but that is limited and requires a lot of effort to execute effectively.
a) No marines // combat
b) wide open crevice
That trick is completely useless in a real game. I'd love to see videos of skulks moving this fast without leap in any kind of realistic game scenario. Bouncing around and empty crevice is useless in an actual game. Sort of like climbing mines into vents.
Also, you could "fix" this by simply capping max skulk speed.
Fana makes some good points, which I mostly agree with (aside from bunny hopping, which I find to be magnitudes worse of an option than wall jumping). Notably, the air control, which is something I've been complaining about since it was put in way back in 197(?) +/- a few patches. When skulks maintain 100% of their forward momentum despite turning 360 degrees in the air while holding W, it gives skulks silly unpredictability.
Ambush skulks are still viable, they're just less versatile than zerg rush skulks because you're forced to be positioned before your opponent enters the area. In some areas, ambush skulks are better than zerg skulks (such as camping outside a base, or a hallway before a RT), but that is limited and requires a lot of effort to execute effectively.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again: I HAVE seen it in combat. I was the marine and tried several times to beat the skulk. It is absolutely overpowered because you can't hit something, that teleports around you. The video does not show a "trick" it shows the insane speed you can get by wall jumping. Don't you see how little time he needs to get from one wall in crevice to the other? Think about how to fight this speed as marine. It has nothing to do with crevice. It just has open enough space to show how fast you can get. I have played against a skulk, that only needed one wall. He jumped so fast on that one wall again and again (even in front of me) that i couldn't hit em. And after 3 or 4 jumps, he engaged me and that was like he teleported. I really wish you, that you met this player or one that is equally skilled in wall jumping, so that you can see, that no amount of hit-reg optimization will make this balanced.
But as you said, they need to lower the max speed cap and the insane unpredictable air control.
But as you said, they need to lower the max speed cap and the insane unpredictable air control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jumping from one-wall isn't skilled; I've done it myself countless times to reach marines at the end of a hallway. It's really weird at the moment though; I've had times where I'm just jumping off a wall or slanted floor and not getting a hefty boost but flying in speed when I hit a flat-floor and jump again.
Yea there is something weird going on where you accelerate <b>after</b> the jump to whatever speed so you can make the weirdest 180 jump strafing maneuvers without losing speed even though you know you should otherwise have no momentum left.
Well, not really. As I said in my original post, walljumping creates a powerful incentive to rush instead of ambushing, but that's only half of the story.
The other half can be best explained by a comparison with NS1: Skulks in NS2 are bigger and slower (when not walljumping) compared to the NS1 skulk, but their health is identical, meaning it is more difficult to compete against marines without the walljump speed boost. Furthermore, the current NS2 maps are not designed to accomodate amubushing -- the rooms, corridors and door openings are bigger, wider and more open, compared to NS1 maps. Even worse, marines spawn faster and move around the smaller maps at ridiculous speeds due to sprint, meaning aliens most of the time simply don't have time to set up ambushes before the marines arrive (this also creates very hectic rush-y gameplay which I personally don't find enjoyable, but that's a digression).
Currently, NS2 just isn't conducive to "classic" skulk play, which is a shame because that was the best part of NS1 gameplay.
The relatively fast marine movement speed definitely makes it harder for skulks to ambush, but there are still quite a few good spots. Zerg rush vs ambush, the goals of the tactics are the same: to close the distance to melee by taking as little fire as possible. A well executed ambush takes more prep time and foresight, but can accomplish the goal. I definitely miss the older, slower skulks of NS2 a bit, but I don't regret wall jumping. I think the seemingly uncapped benefit of wall jumping (getting up to 15+ speeds off even 5 jumps) is compounded by the ease with which skulks can severely redirect their momentum and continue the jump chain. It doesn't take much planning to wall jump, you simply go forward and bounce to a wall every other bounce.
If you couldn't constantly readjust as drastically as 180+ degrees, but instead had to plan your jumps out then wall jumping would be a lot more difficult. And more difficult effectively means reduced in power.
In ns1 there were 3 ways to get close to a good marine.
1. Ambush - Lure him into vulnerable position allowing you to get the jump on him.
2. Walljump - This is not the same walljump in ns2, you basically used movements that were hard to predict to get close. This was mainly used as a decoy tactic because it was hard to get close to well positioned marines this way.
3. Bunnyhop - This basically gave skulk extra speed in exchange for predictable movement. Also when you lost your bhop speed in combat you would not be able to get it back. Even with all that speed the skulk got he usually needed some kind of support to be able to take down a marine. A good marine was usually able to kill a bunnyhopping skulk with ease since the movement was predictable.
Now lets talk about ns2
1. Because the skulk is slower and has bigger hitbox he needs a stronger version of walljump to function. The alien team is based around mobility and its bit strange that marines can sprint just as fast as skulk movement.
2. Walljump combines the effectiveness of nr 2 and 3 above. You have unpredictable movement and you gain extra speed from it. Also if you do a mistake in combat you can get your speed back pretty quick by jumping off a wall up to ceiling and back down.
3. Ambushing is harder in ns2 because of how big and slow skulks are, for that reason its much better to get your speed up and force the marines to waste their ammo with unpredictable movement. Ambush is still very viable but not as good. Killing a good walljumping skulk will always leave you with no ammo left.
So when I look at the skulk I think there are 2 core issues, its movement speed and walljump. There might also be a issue with marine mobility(because of sprint).
Walljump can work but it needs some improvements. It would at least need 3-4 jumps to gain full speed and skulks should not gain speed by jumping into the ceiling.
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This does not have to be skillbased movement. Even though I would welcome such a thing into the game it is simply not needed. For example if we wanted to go bhop route again we could allow players to get the speed by simply jumping a lot with less air control. It might not look as well but it would work similar. The only thing to note here is this would allow new players to get better with skulk faster than marine tune their aim because skulks would be easier to use. However its already like that.
When the client is informed about the jump there is a very large error that needs to be reconsiled. The error is so large that exponential smoothing and other mechanisms that can smooth over small prediction errors will probably just look funkier than moving the player to the new position with a noticable "pop".
Bunnyhopping is only slightly better than walljumping from this perspective, because there are not quite so many jumps and the air-movement is smooth and nicely predictable. But bunnyhopping can be further improved with pogo-sticking like quakeworld. Pogo-sticking would allow the server to pass a long a hint to clients that a player is intending to jump when he lands(because he is holding space). Though the player may occasionally change his mind and let space up before landing, most of the time the client would be informed in advance that a jump will occur when the player lands, and most of the time a jump actually will happen. This should allow a decent success rate for predicting jumps when extrapolation proves necessary.
I think you have to get the timing of the jump right(don't jump straight away when you land?). I'm not quite up to date on how it works in the current build.
To the best of my knowlege:
*If you press jump while in the air, you lose your speed bonus
*After you land on a wall or floor, how quickly you jump determines how much speed you gain(wall) or speed you lose (floor).
So you always want to jump immediately after landing and the quicker you do so nets you the biggest speed increase.
That's a pretty interesting thingy. Any idea if Quake or Painkiller actually does this or are they just relying on razorsharp netcode in general?
No clue. But it seems like a pretty obvious thing to do, so it wouldn't surprise me.
You could do pogo-sticking for wall-jumping to, but only if you don't care about jump-timing(which seems to be the element of skill involved in wall jumping, unlike bunnyhoping, where the interesting skill is planing a path that gives the desired turning radius and hits all the jumps ontop of rails etc.).
As Fana said, it removes the ambush componente for example and its broken in its current state like the video from internets show.
I dont think a skulk should jump from 1 side in crevice to another. This is no skill, this is a "bug".
So, for what have we walljump right now? Its for getting more speed.
With 209 you can buy speed as an upgrade called celerity. And believe me this is really fast.
You choose upgrades for the gamestyle you like:
- Silent and Cloak for better ambush
- Celerety and Carapace for better frontal attacks
Getting more speed without upgrades didnt fit with the intention of the upgrades.
Why should i "buy" celerity if i can be faster without it?
Furthermore it seems completely random. I have gotten the healthy "rarrgh" noise when jumping off a wall, only to be masively slowed down. Other times It makes no noise at all and I get a speed boost.
As Fana said, it removes the ambush componente for example and its broken in its current state like the video from internets show.
I dont think a skulk should jump from 1 side in crevice to another. This is no skill, this is a "bug".
So, for what have we walljump right now? Its for getting more speed.
With 209 you can buy speed as an upgrade called celerity. And believe me this is really fast.
You choose upgrades for the gamestyle you like:
- Silent and Cloak for better ambush
- Celerety and Carapace for better frontal attacks
Getting more speed without upgrades didnt fit with the intention of the upgrades.
Why should i "buy" celerity if i can be faster without it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this is true then I will go back to never playing alien side again... and on top of that will probably take a long break from this game until release comes and all the big mistakes and bad design elements will come full circle.
This may sound harsh but I honestly can't keep playing a game where I get set on how the gameplay is and I start to like it and really enjoy the skillbased aspects of things BEFORE people complain and the developers nerf it.
Right now the only actual fun thing to do on aliens is play as skulk for walljumping and microing drifters with enzyme. I assume both of these aspects are going to be heavily nerfed in the coming builds due to people learning how to use them and getting GOOD with them. We don't want that now do we? Having insanely skilled players in a game makes it unfun for everyone right? Excuse my sarcasm...
What you're telling me is now if I want to have a fast skulk I have to buy celerity as mandatory? When we all know crag will still be the default hive. This is stupid. Nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerd. Anything fun.... nerf it. What you basically summed up in your last thought is that celerity is redundant... and no longer needed in the game due to already having a BETTER skillbased way to gain speed. I thought celerity was going to be very limited like onos charge. If it becomes a default for speed it's going to be an insanely bad upgrade.
It seems that most of the times when people cry OP about something is because they don't like it due to them getting owned by it (Usually by a skilled player). I know this is a beta but I find it incredible that the developers are constantly nerfing things in their game and taking the general publics feedback as sound and accurate...
Those who disagree with me simply have a gamers ego and can't accept that other people are better than them at something. Sometimes people are so much better than you at something you can't even begin to comprehend HOW they are so good... so what do you do? You blame it on being OP... or when this game becomes official we are going to hear people whine about "hacks". See the problem is even the best shooters and players are blinded by their own skill and ego. They can't see the truth in things because they believe "Nobody could be better or more knowledgeable than me!!"
They better not nerf the speed of the skulk... that's the one thing this game had going for it if the devs want to pull in the fast paced FPS shooter kids. I would never play quakelive ever if you couldn't bunnyhop for speed. If I needed to upgrade my speed to do something that should be skill based then you get the COD effect on game development... what's this?
Well players aren't skilled enough so you need to give them stupid "perks" to make newbies feel better about themselves. Don't do that to this game please. Make things easy enough for people to pick up but hard enough so that it takes dedication to master. Stop skill capping everything in this game in hopes of balancing it for the masses. It's really not possible... find the happy balance that makes the game playable in pubs but actually worthwhile to play competitive (Which it isn't at the moment).
Let the good players shine, and don't be afraid that this game has a high learning curve (Due to everything good about it)... that's the whole damn reason I even bought it... and I assume the same for about 90% of the people who pre-ordered. So why the apparent trend to nerf and carebear this game is beyond me.... it must be the vocal minority who has the power in this community. Whoever worships the most get's the most praise and credibility... at least it seems that way. If you slipped up and had a nasty comment or hard critique you are pretty much squelched here. Happened to me plenty of times even though I'd like to think I've contributed a lot to this community. Will I ever get awarded for anything? Probably not... and I doubt any feedback I've ever given on this forum has ever made it into the game.
But what do I know... I'm just a complete souless jerk, with no skill, that barely plays this game... oh yeah and I've only sold 4 copies of this game to friends... and I continue to promote the hell out of it everyday to every gamer I know. I love this game... please don't ruin it.