What's the flamethrower's purpose?
Rowen
Join Date: 2012-05-04 Member: 151545Members
Join Date: 2012-05-04 Member: 151545Members
It's a legitimate question. I'm still a n00b so there are nuances I'm not aware, but look slike the flamethrower has basically no purpose.
I only use it for two reasons. One is because according to the wiki aliens on fire regenerate energy at a severely reduced rate. This means that if you hit an onos, he'll be out of energy after stomping at most twice and be basically defenseless. Since onos in general are currently what they are, this is a good reason to want one jetpacking around, though when/if stomping is adjusted or marines get other means of dealing with them this reason will surely dissapear.
(the other reason is because I have clear feedback on whenever I hit. Hey, the critter's burning, this means I'm not so useless at firing. After emptying two rifle clips on a skulk without knowing if I hit once, it's a nice change of pace)
Other than that, it costs 30 freaking pres, has a really short range and deals little damage. I would understand it's usefulness if it did increased damage to buildings, or if alien buildings set on fire didn't work, or if it cleared infestation, but it doesn't look like it's the case. What does the flmethrower do or is supposed to do that it doesn't that justifies not only it costing 30 pres, but not choosing another weapon?
I only use it for two reasons. One is because according to the wiki aliens on fire regenerate energy at a severely reduced rate. This means that if you hit an onos, he'll be out of energy after stomping at most twice and be basically defenseless. Since onos in general are currently what they are, this is a good reason to want one jetpacking around, though when/if stomping is adjusted or marines get other means of dealing with them this reason will surely dissapear.
(the other reason is because I have clear feedback on whenever I hit. Hey, the critter's burning, this means I'm not so useless at firing. After emptying two rifle clips on a skulk without knowing if I hit once, it's a nice change of pace)
Other than that, it costs 30 freaking pres, has a really short range and deals little damage. I would understand it's usefulness if it did increased damage to buildings, or if alien buildings set on fire didn't work, or if it cleared infestation, but it doesn't look like it's the case. What does the flmethrower do or is supposed to do that it doesn't that justifies not only it costing 30 pres, but not choosing another weapon?
Comments
It used to instantly kill any alien it touched, completely blind the victim with a huge screen filling flame graphic. Oh, and it went through any solid object - including walls <3
Everything you've pointed out is very fair and I hope they listen to you and others.
I'd like to see the range increased a bit, damage against structures (especially cysts) boosted, and damage against alien lifeforms increased a bit so you can actually kill them if you have to.
If flames don't hurt aliens then they need to remove those awesome burning effects and alien scream sound effects, because it's very confusing when you're looking at an alien that's apparently burning to death in great pain, but is actually sustaining next to no damage! Maybe they could implement a snicker or a giggle sound for aliens when they're tickled by flames ;P
I guess for now, it's another way to make you feel like you're in the movie Aliens, and who doesn't want that?
Flamethrowers with effective alien damage output are almost entirely out of the question and it is easy to see where this would lead, but flamethrowers as structure-killers steps on the toes of the Grenade Launcher by fulfilling functions that are too similar. The flamethrower should be a utility-weapon that offers some kind of unique advantage. The adrenaline drain is an example of what it might perform though I am not a fan of its implications for lifeforms (IIRC, shadowstep was introduced because of the flamethrower 'fade-trap'). With all the thousands of damage types that are floating around, I could potentially see it as some sort of area-denial weapon where it is very effective at suffocating cyst expansion or something. It <i>could</i> forge a role as the all-purpose weapon which does everything quite well but not as well as the others but I'm not sure I like this semi-######isation of the tradeoff system.
While there are probably ways of making the flamethrower work and add to the game, my personal opinion is that it requires too large an overhaul for too small a gameplay gain for it to warrant inclusion for the 1.0 release. I may be out of line by saying this but I don't see any urgency in getting the flamethrower to work or implementing it all.
--Cory
No game has better captured the "feel" of a semi-dystopian future on an alien planet wherein a bunch of space marines are desperately trying to maintain order in a facility they have only used for a few years or decades. This game feels more like the movie <i>Alien</i> to me than any of the licensed games ever have... except maybe that one on the SNES that was unbelievably difficult. And that's not supposed to be some sort of backhanded compliment to the developers; I don't think Unknown Worlds has made <i>Alien</i> again, I'm just trying to say that this game is the most precise and enjoyable example of an environment type that many people first witnessed upon watching that film.
The engine is amazing, the art assets are amazing, the gameplay is amazing. And that is why I support the developers!
It's a useful weapon if you don't mind about all the requirements to get it. You CAN'T use it without jetpack(or you're so slow, you're easy meat), so you need 10 res there added to the 30 res to buy it. Also, I don't see the point of having more than 1 flame in a squad, since the damage on it is really average.
As a tool for cover and defense, I think it is useful. One flame seems to help a lot to defend against high lifeforms. But it is hard to kill with it, and it cost too much for being a "specialty" weapon. Commanders usually overlook it, for cheaper and more efficient alternatives strategy.
I think the PRes to buy it should stay the same, but the TRes to research it should be lower, so that Comms don't overlook it. Also, maybe make Sap Adrenaline a little stronger. I mean, it could be nice if, for each hit you do with the flamethrower, it removes like 1 point of Adrenaline, so it can really be a counter to high lifeforms. Strangely, it seems the Skulk is the most efficient against Flamethrowers, since they are not as much dependant on Adrenaline to fight.
Overall:
-Only 1 flame in a squad.
-Good against Gorge, Lerks, Fades and Onos to starve their energy.
-Weak against Skulk.
-It don't kill, it is a defensive weapon.
-This tech is overlooked, Comm almost never get it because of the cost.
My suggestion:
-Reduce the tech cost. Maybe it should come free with the Advanced Armory, or cost like 5 TRes.
-Add 1 point of Adrenaline-damage.
edit: didnt read the reply above me, obv agrree 100%
One thing I would like to see, is that as you pour fire into either a stationary object or enemy player... Would it be possible to scale the dmg the more fuel you poor into a target?
What i mean, just setting an enemy on fire will do the slow dmg tick... but if they remain in the jet of flame, could it rapidly do more and more damage as the alien body heats up and the fuel is poured onto it? I don't know the numbers, but what i am getting at is the dmg / ticks increases the more fuel / time they are hosed.
I am thinking of when you have a stationary onos killing marines or a fade swiping. If they remain in the jet they will rapidly go down under a full jet of fuel.
Whilst it is great for zapping energy, you are not 'visibly' killing the life form. As a skulk I can usually solo a lone marine, and as a marine you end up thinking.
"30 pres and I go down to a skulk?!"
This being a late game weapon as well, which takes a lot of tres to get to.
When I fire an LMG at a skulk/lerk/whatever, the feedback and result of me firing at that weapon is noticeable. Lifeforms react to it.
With the flamer, lifeforms (minus the lerk perhaps) just come flying at you, and you tend to come out of it either dead or badly hurt.
Players need to feel 'empowered' by the weapons they buy. If the flamer is not effective against lifeforms or structures and just 'good at everything', there are going to be huge doubts.
The best way to combat this I believe is to have it as it is, but become more 'area denial'. Have the flame stream doubled in length, and have it arch slightly.
When it hits the floor you can create walls/areas of fire, to block the enemy and reduce health enough for them not to want to wonder into that area.
Make it about hive attack support, or area defence. So eggs pop easily, gas clouds are burnt up and infestation takes a beating.
But keep it as useless as a solo weapon as it currently is, especially with the cost. Perhaps by reducing the turn time (like the onos charge) when firing.
10 years after RTCW still has best flamer in game IMHO.
This is stupid video as itself, put you can see how flamer animation looks
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIyD6P7iO20" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIyD6P7iO20</a>
Whilst it is great for zapping energy, you are not 'visibly' killing the life form. As a skulk I can usually solo a lone marine, and as a marine you end up thinking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it makes the flame more interesting. I've continued using it since last time, and I really feel it's a great counter against high lifeforms. At the same time, having an evident weakness against skulk gives an interesting balance of risk/reward.
It still lack a little something (a little Adrenaline-damage would make it awesome) to become a really great weapon. It would make end-game interesting, especially since the Skulk would become REALLY important to fight against flames.
It still lack a little something (a little Adrenaline-damage would make it awesome) to become a really great weapon. It would make end-game interesting, especially since the Skulk would become REALLY important to fight against flames.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. If I'm not wrong, the flamer damages the cyst when aimed at infestation already. Making it easier to kill infestation. Also it is already possible to set fire to the floor or walls for area denial. But this effect lasts way too short.
On a side note: To not make it redundant to the GL as building killer, it should have another way of damaging buildings. The burning effect on buildings should last way longer (but weaker) or even indefinitely. This way you could go havoc on infestation just running through lighting anything on fire and leave it burning down. Since it is late tech, it counters the cyst spam in late game. Also a gorge can put the fire out with heal spray already.
The idea of increasing damage when constantly flamed sounds nice too, but maybe to overpowered. If implemented, it should build up really slow. Slow enough to not counter skulks but to kill the base camping onos.
This would have been 10x harder without a jetpack. A lone marine is never a good thing, but a lone marine with a flamer is close to useless. What I mean is, it is likely that you are going to be killed before you have caused as much damage as the weapon is worth. Enough to put a dent in the alien team at least.
At least a guy with a standalone GL could feel like he had some use rushing a hive. Perhaps you could even take it down if you have a jetpack.
In this way at least the marine thinks 'hey, I have accomplished something'. Because a hive/extractor/lifeform death is significant.
I agree what has been said here, and I do like want it currently does. But it needs a buff in certain areas.
# I'd definitely like to see larger/higher flames that last longer and cause more damage for area denial.
# A longer range, as you tend to have to retreat quickly when a skulk/fade comes. I'd rather be at the back of the fight giving support, or denying an area/doorway/room at reasonable distance.
# Great against eggs. Popping eggs is now only viable with the ARC as you can encounter so many in hive rooms that it is useless going after them.
# It also needs to be a bit more 'burny' with alien structures imo. Perhaps it causes less damage, burns longer, but can effect res income for aliens or reduce hive energy, etc. Perhaps even reduce build time. I think this would give it that support role, especially when assaulting hive rooms and making it harder for aliens to recover defences.
# Perhaps make it 25 pres too so we see it as a viable option late game.
- Burning damage and energy denial depends on how long you can maintain the cone of flames on a creature or structure. This means it'll be less useful against fast lifeforms, and more against single alien buildings (therefore being less useful than the GL against clusters of buildings or hive rooms)
- Burning buildings do not work; whips don't attack, hydras don't shoot, extractors don't produce resources, crags don't heal, cysts break chain and retract infestation, etc. This way, it becomes very useful agains entrenched alien positions as support.
But I still feel the 'area denial' element needs to be pushed further, as it would give it that support weapon feel.
I understand there could be an issue with one marine firing at the feet of the others, but perhaps the flames go out quickly when other marines run over them.
Maybe even direct hit to aliens would cause them to take the burning effect with them and cause minor damage around them. Who wouldn't like to make fireballs flap around.
More than one however has diminishing returns.
Maybe the right click could be some sort of napalm grenade thing that would be interesting.
An extremely cool effect would be some sort of "soaking" ability when you can "soak" an area with fuel allowing you to set it on fire at any time (for a limited time).
It would be cool seeing (and being) a marine who is running away from a hive that they just soaked leaving a trail of fuel behind just to set it on fire and watch the flames as they reach the hive and then hearing it scream :)
Now that, would make a good trailer :D