[NS2 Q&A no.1] Linux client...
tuxator
Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69958Members, Reinforced - Gold
Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69958Members, Reinforced - Gold
in the video you say that you "don't get anything out of it", well that's kind of wrong. I, for example, pre-ordered this game ONLY because of a linux client that was said would be there. And I guess I wasn't the only one.
If you won't provide a linux client stop messing around with this "oh, maybe we will maybe we won't" but instead say WHAT will happen, yes/no. Stop this bull###### about "oh we don't know it yet". You are working on this game since at least 2 years now (that was when I heared about this game and pre-ordered) and you STILL haven't figured out if you want to do it or not? Are you kidding me?
If you won't provide a linux client stop messing around with this "oh, maybe we will maybe we won't" but instead say WHAT will happen, yes/no. Stop this bull###### about "oh we don't know it yet". You are working on this game since at least 2 years now (that was when I heared about this game and pre-ordered) and you STILL haven't figured out if you want to do it or not? Are you kidding me?
Comments
If you won't provide a linux client stop messing around with this "oh, maybe we will maybe we won't" but instead say WHAT will happen, yes/no. Stop this bull###### about "oh we don't know it yet". You are working on this game since at least 2 years now (that was when I heared about this game and pre-ordered) and you STILL haven't figured out if you want to do it or not? Are you kidding me?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They said there was a possibility of their being a Linux client? Pics or it didn't happen.
Also, why the hell would anyone make a game for Linux? That's like making a word processor for the XBOX.
Most people do it to be hipsters. Linux is a development platform, that's it. OpenGL is great for research and all, but it will never be an API for game graphics. DirectX will always be better.
Name one triple A engine that runs in Windows using OpenGL. I'm genuinely interested because I'm fairly certain that there are none.
I know a lot of people are like me and would switch to Linux 100% if games were supported, but even "a lot" in this case is few compared to the size of the gaming community.
That said, having a Linux client would be a huge deal in the Linux community I think. Ive seen much smaller scale games make front page of news sites for supporting linux. Could be a major selling point for UWE. Its really a question of is it worth putting the effort towards.
Rage, a couple of Call-of-Dutys, basically anything built on an iD-tech engine, such as Wolfenstein, Brink, Prey, Prey 2.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OpenGL_programs#section_1" target="_blank">Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OpenG...grams#section_1</a>
Starcraft 2 Mac version is on there. Doom 3, etc.
That's pretty interesting, but it seems the only reason is because Carmack wants it to one day be opensource. Other than id tech engines it seems like absolutely no other mainstream game uses OpenGL. If performance was the same their would be absolutely no reason to use directx, since openGL has absolutely no strings attached, and requires far less porting troubles. DirectX is simply better.
OpenGL isn't used much anymore (besides iD), mainly because Direct3D has made great strides, something it was able to do because Microsoft owns it and all platforms it is running on, so it's not that hard to change its standards. OpenGL on the other hand is almost defined by the backwards-compatibility and support for a myriad of platforms it has, which doesn't always go hand in hand with featuring the most up-to-date spiffy graphics. Saying however, that Direct3D is faster and "simply better" is just mind-numbingly stupid and shallow. Apples and oranges goddamnit.
And when you're talking OpenGL, the opposite equivalent would be Direct3D\DirectDraw, not DirectX.
So you're saying its only better because its better... I can live with that. And yes, it is apples and oranges. OpenGL is for research, directX is for mainstream game releases. OpenGL is simply better for research, DirectX is simply better for mainstream game releases.
On-topic:
While Linux may not yield as many sales as to justify the work you'd have to put in, something can be said about the enthusiasm and the potential support the Linux-community has to offer (in terms of drawing in a disproportionately large crowd of new mappers\modelers\modders).
Well first one, Linux distributions are systems for developing software or gaming the same way Windows is. If you've a good coding style you (as a programer) don't really have any trouble writing for both systems (that comes from someone who IS a professional software developer) even when your using a language that was originally developed for one system (.NET).
Second one: as for other games, I always find it amusing how many people think there are no games available: There are many good games available (Heroes of Newerth, Savage 2, Vendetta Online, Oilrush, ET:QW, UrbanTerror to name a few).
Why do I use linux? To some degree because of security reasons, a linux based distribution is much easier to secure than a Windows system and if something is wrong (a virus/worm infected your system) it's much easier to a) find out that your system is infected and b) to get rid of that thing. Also it's good to know that you can dig in the source code of your system if you need to/want to (hey, it's not paranoia if someone really want's to get you...right? ;))
and no, it's not about 'hipster'. You should really start thinking about what a system runs on your router or the webserver you just connected to. In most cases it'll be a *nix based system.
oh and yes, it was written that there'll be a linux version after release. It stood on the webpage where I pre-purchased this game (together with Overgrowth) and there is a thread in this forum where it was confirmed by one of the guys that work at/for unknownworlds.
*edit and about OpenGL: every game title released by idSoftware (Quake/Doom/Enemy Territory game series) is an OpenGL game and most of them run under linux aswell. And aside from the last Unreal Tournament all previous versions are OpenGL games, too. Also every(?) game that was released by Valve (Counter Strike, Half Life, Portal) is an OpenGL game, or has an OpenGL option)
[...] If you've a good coding style you (as a programer) don't really have any trouble <b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->re-<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>writing for both systems (that comes from someone who IS a professional software developer) [...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You missed my bold text.
Ups :$
btw, its true if you control all tiers of code. Unfortunately that not true with Direct3D and you need some rewriting to port ( abstract layer between final functions and yours calls ). Can you write a epic code -aka perfect abstractions- ? Sure. How many hours have you wasted coding it ? A lot.
UWE has never said they would 100% do a Linux client. They said they would <b>like</b> to, and in the 'Buy' page when you orderd they have never said that either. They are working on the server right now, which is a lot of the back-end work. While it looks like there is a possibility of a Linux client, may will not for a long time.
I think you may have gotten confused between "We'd like to" and "We will do this 100%". Thanks for your interest in NS2 :-)
I do support the idea of a linux client, but I also believe that NS2 has more pressing issues to be dealt with, right now.
Theres not even a linux <b>server</b> yet.
UWE has never said they would 100% do a Linux client. They said they would <b>like</b> to, and in the 'Buy' page when you orderd they have never said that either. They are working on the server right now, which is a lot of the back-end work. While it looks like there is a possibility of a Linux client, may will not for a long time.
I think you may have gotten confused between "We'd like to" and "We will do this 100%". Thanks for your interest in NS2 :-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
From UWE's perspective (and every other game developer), its always going to come down to "We have this much money, this many people, and this much time--what can we get done?" After the game is released, if it becomes a massive success and the UWE team are driving around in Lamborghinis painted like Onii, hanging up Gorge pinatas stuffed with money in their offices for visitors to hit, THEN the cycle will start all over again.* "Can we make a Mac client? How long will it take? What about Linux?" etc.
*I may have exaggerated the required funds to make a Linux client.
Sorry for the confusion mate. We would love to a Linux client, and a Mac client and every other client known to man. We can't (and haven't) committed to those because we can't be sure we will have the resources to do them in future. It all depends on the success of the Windows version.
You may have heard us talking about a Linux server - That is a big priority for us, after performance. It's important to note that the server and the client are very different.
Ups :$
btw, its true if you control all tiers of code. Unfortunately that not true with Direct3D and you need some rewriting to port ( abstract layer between final functions and yours calls ). Can you write a epic code -aka perfect abstractions- ? Sure. How many hours have you wasted coding it ? A lot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, if you know you want to go multi-platform you don't need to rewrite any code, because you think about which language and which technique to use BEFORE you start coding. My example wasn't specifically related to this topic but more of a general fact. If I want to support multiple systems, I use a language that is able to do that (C++, C# (per mono) or, if I really don't have any other choice and speed is not important, Java) and a technique for the engine that supports all systems I want to go to (OpenGL).
@Strayan and Obraxis sorry it seems the real issue I've got, got lost here: The real issue is, that there is not even a clear decision but instead you guys keep saying "maybe, maybe not", I do understand that there needs to be time to do it but if you actually want to pull through with it, you'll find the time (that's also from experience...it's a feature and as it is with all features it doesn't make sense to implement it if the devs don't really want it).
It doesn't really matter to me WHEN the game will be available on linux but it is important (at least to me) that you get a clear decision on that matter. For example if you say "no, we'll never do that", I can delete this website from my browserhistory, delete this account and can stop reading your changelogs every week.
I realise it may be frustrating for you but circumstances change and it all depends on what those circumstances are after Version 1.0. Giving you a clear answer right now would be no good, since there's absolutely no guarantee it won't change later on.
As for why should people run and try to support linux? It's in all of our best interests as consumers to limit the monopoly power of monolithic architectures like Microsoft has setup with Windows + Direct X (and Xbox + Direct X). Remember how dx10 arbitrarily requires Windows Vista or greater to run? That's not due to some major architectural underpinning that allowed dx10 + to only running on Windows Vista or greater. It was simply a choice Microsoft made to get more and more people forced into upgrading.
The way things are going WinXP is actually going to support less games than Linux simply because developers that write in DirectX are targeting dx10 and greater, where as those developers that write in OpenGL gain a lot more flexibility for supporting multiple (including mobile) platforms. Valve has recognized this issue with Microsoft as well, and see how tied they are to Microsoft's whims, which is why they are actually working towards steam on Linux.
As far as Unknown Worlds is concerned, I've never seen them promise a linux client, but Max has stated that he's abstracted the rendering layer so that it should be a (relatively) simple matter of swapping out Dx calls for OpenGL, which in doing so, will open up options for a Mac and a Linux client.
I for one hope they release a Linux client someday, or even possibly ship the engine source to someone like Ryan Gordon to possibly build a linux port. But that being said, their first priority should be reaching the most number of people, which means windows.
A triple A title that runs OpenGL is one that uses OpenGL in Microsoft Windows.
<a href="http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX" target="_blank">http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-sh...and-not-DirectX</a>
PS3 doesn't use OpenGL. Most PS3 games write directly to PS3-specific hardware.
<a href="http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX" target="_blank">http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-sh...and-not-DirectX</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While that blog post is correct in many aspects, it is heavily biased and backed on sources from between 4 and 15 years ago. It also supports this "holy war" attitude most people unfortunately tend to have in these kind of discussions. Back then Direct3D was definitely inferior to OpenGL in many aspects, but it has definitely matured. I'm all for using OpenGL, but I sincerely doubt that it is so much "more powerful" now.
Quote from John Carmack:
<!--QuoteBegin-"John Carmack"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("John Carmack")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I actually think that Direct3D is a rather better API today. Microsoft had the courage to continue making significant incompatible changes to improve the API, while OpenGL has been held back by compatibility concerns. Direct3D handles multi-threading better, and newer versions manage state better.
It is really just inertia that keeps us on OpenGL at this point. OpenGL still works fine and we wouldn’t get any huge benefits by making the switch, so I can’t work up much enthusiasm for cleaning it out of our codebase. If it was just a matter of the game code, we could quite quickly produce a DirectX PC executable, but all of our tool code has to share resources with the game renderer, and I wouldn’t care to go over all of that for a dubious win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX" target="_blank">http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-sh...and-not-DirectX</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your guy is insane or mentally retarded:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->API use was shifted in favor of DirectX by Microsoft's two-pronged DirectX campaign around the launch of XBox 360 and Windows Vist<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OpenGL lost because it was crap and DirectX won because it was better. It wasn't perfect, all it took was to be better. These APIs are quite comparable today with exception of debugging/testing infrastructure that is 100x better with DirectX.
<a href="http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/12/Overgrowth-graphics-overview" target="_blank">http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/12/Overgrowth-graphics-overview</a>
Also all his claims are supported by relevant references, if you didn't noticed.
You do realize that PC gaming itself is considered fairly niche compared to the massive console gaming market right?
<!--quoteo(post=1936973:date=May 18 2012, 08:35 AM:name=MOOtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MOOtant @ May 18 2012, 08:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->PS3 doesn't use OpenGL. Most PS3 games write directly to PS3-specific hardware.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right, most ps3 games (especially those written only for the PS3) will write to the "bare metal" of the cell processor, but the PS3 runs PSGL (as I understand it a version of OpenGL ES with support for CG shaders) natively, and can run an emulated full version of OpenGL with a performance impact. My point being that OpenGL is more open and supported across platforms than DirectX, which is important so you don't have one company that can dictate how, and how much we pay to play the games we love to play.