If they were separate you wouldn't see the issue right now with a mass quantity of lifeforms coming out at x time, whereas in a situation where you don't have a mass quantity of lifeforms at x time everything's right. Both time and quantity are an integral part of Alien balance.
Also I was hoping to get some timings off the Duplex vs Exertus games here, but between server crashes, bugs, and rush strategies it wasn't really a great time to get a benchmark so I only got one game that was "normal"-ish.
Game 1(?) the server crashed around 11-12 minutes, at which point there were 5/6 Fades (the 1 being commander). 75 Res (enough for Onos) was reached at 10:12 with 4 RT's.
<!--quoteo(post=1931308:date=Apr 28 2012, 06:53 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 28 2012, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931308"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->here's an example of how thats incorrect:
one singular onos at 2 minutes is just as uncounterable/unfair as 8 fades at the same time at 12 minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, what the hell?
Like...
Are you trying to mess with me or something? Am I being trolled?
I'm trying to point out a valid topic that many others agree with and you're responding with complete rubbish that I shouldn't need to point out is impossible. <b><u>Of course</u></b> an Onos two minutes into the game is going to be unfair (though to be honest, it would be a dead Onos with no upgrades or stomp). That's probably why Onos don't come out for another 8 minutes. Dear Gods. Am I supposed to respond to you with some abstract statement about a JP/GL rush at 1 minute being as unfair as a shotgun/exo rush at 6 minutes?
Please tell me you typo'd or were responding to another thread. Or maybe that you misunderstood what I typed. I'm staring at what you said and it's making less sense every-time I read it. I mean unless you're trying to make a point that a team full of Fades as 12 minutes is unfair, in which case why confuse everyone who reads that by mentioning an Onos at 2 minutes? Why not just say "A team full of Fades at 12 minutes is unfair."?
I'm sorry if I'm coming across a bit hostile here, but you have to understand you're trying to say that there is no connection between the time and quantity of higher lifeforms; the impact a resource sink has on that; or the impact on balance this system has. Then you're giving me no reason as to why you think this.
Stop being so attracted to me IE. I know you have a little man crush.
Anyway, in case you havent noticed marines have been winning a hell of a lot more this build. Actually was in a server today and marines won 5 games in a row. Also in scrims and gathers you see the marines win quite often now as well. If you are a smart marine team you exploit the slow RT build times on the aliens and keep their pres down. That is the main goal on marines now in my opinion, but what do I know? I barely play this game.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited April 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1931322:date=Apr 28 2012, 02:34 PM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ Apr 28 2012, 02:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sorry if I'm coming across a bit hostile here, but you have to understand you're trying to say that there is no connection between the time and quantity of higher lifeforms; the impact a resource sink has on that; or the impact on balance this system has. Then you're giving me no reason as to why you think this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Naw dont worry about, i can see how my short n sweet response might be taken as inciting/antagonizing. <b>I promise it wasn't meant to be though.</b> :)
Not sure i want to argue this anymore considering its such a trivial / semantic thing, but basically i felt like we were having a discussion about timing and then suddenly the topic of Mass tech reared its head<i> as a response</i>, inappropriately. Both are issues, of course, and i care about them both greatly and talk about the two more than any other subject in these forums i think.
That being said they <u>are</u> two different subjects. Proof of this is: if you fix timings, you have not fixed Mass tech. If you fix Mass tech, you have not fixed timings. (and in fact depending on HOW you fix mass tech, through hard or soft counters of RPS mechanics or res sinks or res earnings, your timings will only be based on what is possible and not what is average for balance reasons [fear the 1 min fade!] - this gets very complicated in regards to what skill ceilings/floors you wish to incorporate.)
So yea, while they highlight and exaggerate one another (timings highlight how important mass tech is, meaning people notice a lot more when a whole team of Onos show up that it was a tad early etc) they ARE two separate subjects and one does not explain the other.
<b>/end semantics explanation</b>
That being said, the original argument was that you said: <i>"Alien lifeforms come out at the right times right now"</i> To which i said <!--quoteo(post=1930967:date=Apr 27 2012, 09:22 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 27 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I completely disagree. Where is the early game? You only fight skulks for within the first 2 min generally, as you can lerk around the 2 minute mark on average.(see pic below) And fades ~5 minutes? No thank you, sir. Marine armor 2 is difficult to get at that timing even if you prioritized it above everything else, which you wouldn't because skulk rushes would have taken you out more than likely unless your team is gold. <a href="http://i.imgur.com/lj6fs.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/lj6fs.jpg</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Can we go from here without Mass tech? (since the OP is in regards purely to timing) and then lets open a new Mass Tech/lifeform thread again! its been a while since i've seen one :-P
I'm starting to think we sorta agree with each other anyway... >.>
The point I was trying to make was the timings were fine <u>if</u> there was no mass tech (eg. if resources were staggered on the team). So the straight-forward solution is to change the timings (resource system) or resource sink (to create staggered resources on a team). If you change the timings though you have to factor in how that will affect early game balance.
It was mentioned on the stream today that they will be changing the Armour 1 upgrade so that it will take Fades 3 hits to kill a Marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1931408:date=Apr 29 2012, 06:26 AM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ Apr 29 2012, 06:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931408"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>The point I was trying to make was the timings were fine <u>if</u> there was no mass tech</b> (eg. if resources were staggered on the team). So the straight-forward solution is to change the timings (resource system) or resource sink (to create staggered resources on a team).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This.
The phenomenon of mass-tech is intrinsically linked to timings because it's worthless evaluating the timing of one lerk of fade coming out when the reality is actually two or three of each. ONE lerk is fine at two minutes because most of the game is still revolving around lmg/skulk interplay. TWO lerks seriously threatens skulk/lmg interplay because of wide lerk coverage. It's absolutely pointless to fix the timings based around the first fade when it's actually three fades coming out.
Semantically dividing the two up is seriously detrimental to the discussion as you can't debate one without the other. They are the opposite of non sequitur...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was mentioned on the stream today that they will be changing the Armour 1 upgrade so that it will take Fades 3 hits to kill a Marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I suppose that's one way to allow marines to deal with fast lifeforms, though unfortunately it means they're just pushing forward marine tech in time, instead of delaying alien lifeforms. As a result the early game remains short or becomes possibly even shorter.
I'd rather see them delay alien lifeforms, not increase the speed and power of marine tech to coop with it.
Comments
If they were separate you wouldn't see the issue right now with a mass quantity of lifeforms coming out at x time, whereas in a situation where you don't have a mass quantity of lifeforms at x time everything's right. Both time and quantity are an integral part of Alien balance.
Also I was hoping to get some timings off the Duplex vs Exertus games here, but between server crashes, bugs, and rush strategies it wasn't really a great time to get a benchmark so I only got one game that was "normal"-ish.
Game 1(?) the server crashed around 11-12 minutes, at which point there were 5/6 Fades (the 1 being commander). 75 Res (enough for Onos) was reached at 10:12 with 4 RT's.
one singular onos at 2 minutes is just as uncounterable/unfair as 8 fades at the same time at 12 minutes.
one singular onos at 2 minutes is just as uncounterable/unfair as 8 fades at the same time at 12 minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, what the hell?
Like...
Are you trying to mess with me or something? Am I being trolled?
I'm trying to point out a valid topic that many others agree with and you're responding with complete rubbish that I shouldn't need to point out is impossible. <b><u>Of course</u></b> an Onos two minutes into the game is going to be unfair (though to be honest, it would be a dead Onos with no upgrades or stomp). That's probably why Onos don't come out for another 8 minutes. Dear Gods. Am I supposed to respond to you with some abstract statement about a JP/GL rush at 1 minute being as unfair as a shotgun/exo rush at 6 minutes?
Please tell me you typo'd or were responding to another thread. Or maybe that you misunderstood what I typed. I'm staring at what you said and it's making less sense every-time I read it. I mean unless you're trying to make a point that a team full of Fades as 12 minutes is unfair, in which case why confuse everyone who reads that by mentioning an Onos at 2 minutes? Why not just say "A team full of Fades at 12 minutes is unfair."?
I'm sorry if I'm coming across a bit hostile here, but you have to understand you're trying to say that there is no connection between the time and quantity of higher lifeforms; the impact a resource sink has on that; or the impact on balance this system has. Then you're giving me no reason as to why you think this.
Stop being so attracted to me IE. I know you have a little man crush.
Anyway, in case you havent noticed marines have been winning a hell of a lot more this build. Actually was in a server today and marines won 5 games in a row. Also in scrims and gathers you see the marines win quite often now as well. If you are a smart marine team you exploit the slow RT build times on the aliens and keep their pres down. That is the main goal on marines now in my opinion, but what do I know? I barely play this game.
Naw dont worry about, i can see how my short n sweet response might be taken as inciting/antagonizing.
<b>I promise it wasn't meant to be though.</b> :)
Not sure i want to argue this anymore considering its such a trivial / semantic thing, but basically i felt like we were having a discussion about timing and then suddenly the topic of Mass tech reared its head<i> as a response</i>, inappropriately. Both are issues, of course, and i care about them both greatly and talk about the two more than any other subject in these forums i think.
That being said they <u>are</u> two different subjects. Proof of this is: if you fix timings, you have not fixed Mass tech. If you fix Mass tech, you have not fixed timings.
(and in fact depending on HOW you fix mass tech, through hard or soft counters of RPS mechanics or res sinks or res earnings, your timings will only be based on what is possible and not what is average for balance reasons [fear the 1 min fade!] - this gets very complicated in regards to what skill ceilings/floors you wish to incorporate.)
So yea, while they highlight and exaggerate one another (timings highlight how important mass tech is, meaning people notice a lot more when a whole team of Onos show up that it was a tad early etc) they ARE two separate subjects and one does not explain the other.
<b>/end semantics explanation</b>
That being said, the original argument was that you said:
<i>"Alien lifeforms come out at the right times right now"</i>
To which i said
<!--quoteo(post=1930967:date=Apr 27 2012, 09:22 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 27 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I completely disagree. Where is the early game? You only fight skulks for within the first 2 min generally, as you can lerk around the 2 minute mark on average.(see pic below) And fades ~5 minutes? No thank you, sir. Marine armor 2 is difficult to get at that timing even if you prioritized it above everything else, which you wouldn't because skulk rushes would have taken you out more than likely unless your team is gold.
<a href="http://i.imgur.com/lj6fs.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/lj6fs.jpg</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can we go from here without Mass tech? (since the OP is in regards purely to timing) and then lets open a new Mass Tech/lifeform thread again! its been a while since i've seen one :-P
The point I was trying to make was the timings were fine <u>if</u> there was no mass tech (eg. if resources were staggered on the team). So the straight-forward solution is to change the timings (resource system) or resource sink (to create staggered resources on a team). If you change the timings though you have to factor in how that will affect early game balance.
It was mentioned on the stream today that they will be changing the Armour 1 upgrade so that it will take Fades 3 hits to kill a Marine.
This.
The phenomenon of mass-tech is intrinsically linked to timings because it's worthless evaluating the timing of one lerk of fade coming out when the reality is actually two or three of each. ONE lerk is fine at two minutes because most of the game is still revolving around lmg/skulk interplay. TWO lerks seriously threatens skulk/lmg interplay because of wide lerk coverage. It's absolutely pointless to fix the timings based around the first fade when it's actually three fades coming out.
Semantically dividing the two up is seriously detrimental to the discussion as you can't debate one without the other. They are the opposite of non sequitur...
I suppose that's one way to allow marines to deal with fast lifeforms, though unfortunately it means they're just pushing forward marine tech in time, instead of delaying alien lifeforms. As a result the early game remains short or becomes possibly even shorter.
I'd rather see them delay alien lifeforms, not increase the speed and power of marine tech to coop with it.